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Stop ruining my theories Crofts.  We still have the bit with Miss Blecher left that's unresolved, although I suppose that could be explained away, maybe. We have yet to detail the alibis of the women. I know they took the train and were elsewhere, at least according to their story, but Inspector Tanner hasn't really gone to confirm that. Although, if Cosgrove or Austin are involved somehow, mad props for such a tight alibi. Really. Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 8, 2013 |
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Mar 1, 2013 05:39
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I don't know what to make of that at all. I'm interested to see how the women come into it - there's at least the maid if Austin's alibi is true. Tanner noticed the fifth man's footprints were too small to be Cosgrove's. Maybe the fifth man is a woman? The biggest alibi question to me seems like who got Austin to go running off to various places. Miss Belcher seems like the only woman in the story so far that Austin wouldn't immediately recognise, though I suppose she could have been someone else's actual maid. But I don't think she would have committed the murder without Cosgrove's help, and I can't imagine how he could have been in the vicinity. I'm confused. The Duke of Avon fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Mar 9, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 08:19
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Okay, it looks like discussion has tapered off. Proceed through chapter 9.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:31
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Well. Hmm. This isn't so much speculation as "the sort of things that might happen if I was writing this" (and I am not a very good mystery writer): 1) I think Cosgrove will end up having been in the vicinity of the boathouse as well, simply because I cannot imagine how anyone would write this story and NOT have that happen. Don't ask me how that works with his alibi. 2) Cosgrove knows an actress and in mystery novels actresses are (or should be) totally experts at passing people off as other people. He and Austin are supposed to be quite similar looking. Therefore, 3) The man who was seen in the boat might have been Cosgrove. Or, since the man goes out of sight for a few minutes, he might have first been one and then the other. And for a wild guess, 4) Sir William, Cosgrove, and Austin had hatched some sort of scheme together. Since I have already arbitrarily decided that Sir William is being blackmailed, and since Cosgrove and Austin went to some trouble to have alibis for that night, they were planning to kill the blackmailer. Either everything went terribly wrong and the blackmailer killed Sir William instead, OR Cosgrove or Austin decided to use this chance to kill Sir William and implicate the blackmailer, only this also didn't work out. Either way, Cosgrove and/or Austin don't feel like they can tell the police about what really happened because even if they didn't kill Sir William, they were planning a murder, just not necessarily this one. I'm not sure who the blackmailer would be - pick a random name off Guy A. Person's list of characters. Of course, I am completely jumping to conclusions in deciding there is a blackmailer in the first place. There probably isn't.  edit: oh hey I just looked at the chapter titles for the first time...but I think that actually makes me more dubious? edit agin: I THINK I BROKE COSGROVE'S ALIBI. I read back through those chapters again, keeping an eye out for seemingly extraneous information. At first I got fixated on the Dundee train, but then it mentions that when Tanner is checking the alibi he takes a slow 10pm train to Grantham (where Cosgrove got his baggage from the 7:15) and it lists the stops: Hatfield, Hitchin, Huntingdon, and Peterborough. None of these names meant anything to me, but then I checked Autumncomet's map. Hitchin! So I think that has got to be it. The Duke of Avon fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Mar 9, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 10:29
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Good catch on the Hitchin thing. I didn't even remember and I drew the drat thing. Anyway, yeah, that's Cosgrove's alibi broken with that if it gets brought up (and it's just inconspicuous enough to be 'background detail'), so Austin is safe, presuming they can find the guy who got his ruined shoes. Jimmy and Lois look like fun additions to our detective team.  I'm secretly hoping this will turn into Matlock. STILL no encounter with the wife and daughter though.
Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 8, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 15:10
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I agree with The Duke that these chapters have basically shifted the suspicion onto Cosgrove since any murder mystery worth its salt will only have someone arrested this early if it is a total red herring. So unless Austin is in on a much more elaborate conspiracy theory, chances are he is innocent. I am trying to figure out alternate angles but mostly getting non-starters: with the sudden shift to Lois and Austin breaking off their engagement, could the plan somehow involve Austin tricking her? There was also emphasis on nobody knowing that Jimmy and Lois were cousins, perhaps Austin did? Is there some other explanation for the whole shoe debacle? I was also thinking there must be some family resemblance between Cosgrove and Austin and that might play into the thing with the witnesses, I am glad I am not alone in that. And I already think that Sir William wrote those checks to help Cosgrove (and probably kept it a secret to avoid shaming him?) and the train alibi being broken is making it seem clear that Cosgrove must be the murderer. It is still early in the story however, so I am expecting that my opinion might shift or change. Guy A. Person fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Mar 8, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 22:49
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Is everyone caught up or do people need one more day? Edit: In view of the resounding silence, go ahead and proceed to chapter 11 Zola fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 04:59
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Good idea! (I am mostly responding because I missed this message since there wasn't a new post, and was worried others might miss the new instructions )
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Mar 7, 2013 21:05
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So Lois has turned out to be a fun and effective addition to the team. And she quickly figured out what The Duke had guessed about the timetables and stops, so good job Duke! At the same time though, that means it is only part of the story and it seems like the three Ponsons were all in on some sort of wacky scheme. Not sure what the make of chapter 11 just yet without more info on this William Douglas character. Maybe he is actually Tom Dale like I speculated on earlier? I think the big thing is the meeting between the three Ponson men and what angle that could take. It kind of tangles things up; if it was something where Cosgrove double crossed Sir William and Austin over, then why couldn't Austin reveal this to get out of trouble? Unless Austin's whole alibi is another trick and the whole thing was a botched murder like The Duke mentioned earlier, and Sir William was not actually the target. I am also starting to think the whole "My God sir! She's not!" story had nothing to do with Lois, but whatever this secondary scheme is. I have some inklings of various theories but I would really need to get more information on Douglas in order to straighten them out, unless anyone else has some observations that I have missed.
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Mar 8, 2013 17:28
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Good catch The Duke! With the secret meeting between the three of them, I sort of got the impression that Cosgrove and Austin have secrets they don't want to get out, even if revealing the meeting and their secrets could prove them innocent. Or is that too obvious? I agree, Lois is an excellent addition to the group. This whole Douglas thing needs to tie into Portugal somehow, so it'll be exciting to see where the plot leads. Now to unspoil my previous posts per OP rules. 
Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 10, 2013 |
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Mar 8, 2013 17:41
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I don't recall there being anything about Portugal so far, unless I've missed something? That Tom Dale idea is starting to look more likely to me, if only because I can't think of what else it could be. I think I need to read further to come up with any specific theories about this, though. Autumncomet, you may be right about the secrets...that seems a bit more plausible than the wacky scheme idea, though I am still sticking to that for the time being. The Duke of Avon fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 9, 2013 03:02
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Very end of chapter 10, Chief Inspector Edgar says that Tanner is off to Portugal in pursuit of the third suspect. Presumably, the last two chapters have been a flashback of sorts to get up to speed on Tanner's doings.
Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 10, 2013 |
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Mar 9, 2013 14:39
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Okay, has everyone got their theories posted for the moment? As I had mentioned after previewing the book, this wasn't as clearcut a whodunit as the Christies we have read, so there is a somewhat of a reveal in Chapter 13. If you have, go ahead and proceed through Chapter 13, which is your last chance before the concluding three chapters.
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Mar 10, 2013 02:14
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Tanner's doing all of my thinking for me. <> The Dale hypothesis seems to be spot-on, so congrats to Guy for getting that. And a collaboration to murder our victim seems increasingly likely, although that whole X thing throws a wrench into the works. Might Austin and Cosgrove have collaborated and tried to frame Douglas? Of course, if it's blackmail that makes no sense but if there's another connection there with Dale, that complicates things. Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 18, 2013 |
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Mar 10, 2013 22:54
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So just to clarify, after these 2 we are posting final theories before the conclusion? I was right about Tom Dale, nice! I might have missed some stuff in chapter 12 honestly, it seemed like just like an overly long and detail exercise in tracking Douglas, and my eyes glazed over for much of it until he was caught. While I was reading it I thought it might be evidence that Douglas was Dale since he seemed pretty savvy about world travel but that detail was solved anyway. So obviously Cosgrove is the murderer, his motive for doing so his extravagant lifestyle and the comment Miss Blecher made about his wealth. And Tom Dale figures in, I am thinking Sir William consulted Cosgrove and "Austin" about the blackmail and Cosgrove realized the opportunity to take advantage. And Miss Blecher might be the fake Franklyn maid. I am also going to go out on a limb and say that the fake "Austin" is actually Enid Ponson. We suspected Cosgrove earlier of impersonating Austin because of the family resemblance (which Enid would obviously share), and we also talked about how they hadn't really gone in depth into the women's alibis. We also know Sir William had a good relationship with her, so perhaps he would confide in her and Cosgrove instead of Austin and Cosgrove. This part is probably still far fetched, I will have to go back through some of her description, I only remember she maybe had a fiance who died? I am going to wait to post an official theory until we have some more discussion, and I go back to check some various things.
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Mar 10, 2013 23:08
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Well, I guess I was making sure you had your semi-final theories posted due to the reveal that was in 13 I was pretty sure everyone who wanted to had posted at that point.
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Mar 10, 2013 23:11
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Oh man, for some reason I was SO SURE that grave was going to be Tom Dale's. But I have a theory now, sooo Preliminary theory: In Chapter 13 Tanner is thinking about the case and realises that his conclusions would mean that Sir William was not murdered. I have now decided that this is correct. Douglas was blackmailing Sir William about Tom Dale being alive/having been alive past when he was supposed to have stopped.* Sir William, Austin, and Cosgrove devised a plan to murder Douglas. Sir William was supposed to have left (probably to go to the doctor's) so he'd also have an alibi. Austin and Cosgrove thought Douglas was some connection of Dale's; however, Sir William knew that Douglas was actually Dale himself, and though he should have left the boathouse before Dale arrived, he stayed late to have one final confrontation with him, over his mistreatment of Lady Ponson and so on. Sir William somehow got in the way of whatever Austin and Cosgrove were doing and ended up dying instead, I'm not sure how. *I have no idea what the legal situation would have been if Lady Ponson married Sir William after Dale was officially dead but not actually dead, but since Sir William is supposed to have been pretty concerned with social standing it's probably all the same to him? I like your theory better, Guy A. Person. I'm probably also going to reread some things and try to think of a better theory. The Duke of Avon fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 10, 2013 23:46
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It is definitely interesting that you had brought up the same theory earlier and it's the exact same conclusion that Tanner reached - that it makes more sense for these guys to have been trying to murder the blackmailer and for something to go horribly awry. I haven't had a chance to go back over things just yet but I am still noodling over the fake "Austin" and something else occurred to me. If we still assume the person had to look like Austin and therefor have a family resemblance, maybe he had a half-brother from his mother's first marriage? And that's the subject of the blackmail? Or maybe since Austin and his shoddy relationship with his father is such a big part of the plot, Austin is actually Tom Dale's son and that was what the blackmail was over? But then of course the other "Austin" doesn't add up. EDIT: Unless it's not a fake Austin but the real Austin who learned the truth and killed his "father" in a fit of rage? I definitely need to skim over a few parts today to try and form a more coherent theory. Guy A. Person fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Mar 11, 2013 |
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Mar 11, 2013 02:10
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Well I was going to wait to see if Autumncomet or anyone else had theories, but I might as well post what my official theory is as of now. I might edit some stuff if anyone has more insight: So I started to get a little out there in my theories and remembered something I learned from both of the Christie stories - to keep it simple. So with that in mind I am no longer suspecting Enid Ponson or secret Dale children, but I do have a theory about Austin being seen at the restaurant on Monday and the boathouse Wednesday evening. So let's start at the beginning. Tom Dale was blackmailing Sir William for some unknown reason. Sir William then consulted Austin about it during his visit the Sunday preceding his death. I believe the "My God sir, she isn't!" gives us some clue about the nature of the blackmail, which is to say I think it was something to do with Lady Ponson. It could be a simple as "she is still married to Dale in the eyes of the law" or something more sinister, but I definitely think that was the "she" that Austin was referring to. Sir William then brought Cosgrove into the fold and had lunch with him and Austin the following day. Austin would obviously lie about this meeting because it pertained to the secret about his mother and perhaps whatever it was Sir William had resolved to do beyond that point. I believe here, they discussed the idea of murdering Tom Dale. I don't, however, think Austin was in on it, and potentially didn't know any of the gritty details, so I still think his alibi for the following Wednesday is still in play. So I think at this point Austin left the fold, but was still aware that Sir William and Cosgrove were planning something which is why he had been acting squeamish around the police from the start. I also believe that Cosgrove saw this as a new opportunity for himself. Miss Blecher has somewhat recently explained to him that he was too poor for her, and in fact he was living well beyond his means. I believe he hatched a scheme to double cross Sir William and kill him instead, framing Austin to cover his tracks and get even more money with Austin executed. Now, I don't know that he included Tom Dale in the scheme; after all, if he didn't care about killing his uncle, why should he care if the subject of the blackmail got out? I think Tom Dale went to the river for his secret meeting with Sir William and discovered the already dead body and split town. Now, back to Austin. As I said he was clearly upset by whatever the subject of the blackmail was and he may have known about the murder plans but I don't believe he was in on them. I believe things played out for him on Wednesday exactly as he said, and that the "Franklyn's Maid" was Miss Blecher. I believe that Cosgrove dressed like Austin in order to frame him, and killed his uncle while they were planning to go confront Dale. I also think this was what led to the somewhat frenzied discussion between Miss Blecher and Cosgrove when Tanner observed them at lunch, they were worried about the alibi standing up not out of concern for Austin but because they were banking on him to go down. I think Austin might not even suspect Cosgrove and might simply believe that the murder plan backfired, and now doesn't want to implicate his father or let the subject of the blackmail come out. So he is keeping silent about everything that happened on Sunday and Monday to his own detriment. So that is my theory. Let me know if you guys have any other ideas.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:34
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This is the last call to post your final theory, as the next assignment is the end of the book.
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Mar 14, 2013 02:30
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I think I'll just stick with my no-murderer idea, with everyone trying to kill Douglas instead. Tbh I'm more inclined to agree that Cosgrove did it, but I want to have a different theory.
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Mar 14, 2013 10:05
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Okay, I think there's been plenty of time for everyone to post. Go ahead and finish the book.
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Mar 15, 2013 02:59
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 End spoilers for people still catching up:Good job again Duke, you cleaned this one up right from the beginning! I will pat myself on the back a bit for calling Tom Dale as a suspect pretty early. I thought I was going the super simple path but it was even simpler (although not the zany alibis of course). I also like how easily the police accepted the "aww shucks we were just horsin' around" explanation of the whole affair which involved conspiracy to commit a murder, physical assault, and massive amounts of obstruction of justice. Then everyone just got to go their separate ways essentially. I am almost choosing to read this all with a sinister alt ending where the three killed Sir William for his money, and just happened to get away scott free! "Sure, we will pay you this agreed upon stipend from our massive inheritances (heh heh)". All in all I think we hit pretty close to the mark, although it is hard to say since as Zola said this didn't shake out to be a true "whodunit". We did call a bunch of stuff ahead of time, like Tom Dale, breaking Cosgrove's alibi, Ponson being blackmailed. Etc. I guess I will leave it to Zola for the final score.
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Mar 15, 2013 21:12
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So what book are we thinking of doing next? The current nomination list is: The Body on the Beach, by Simon Brett The Moving Finger, by Agatha Christie Crooked House, by Agatha Christie Pit Prop Syndicate, by Freeman Wills Crofts
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Mar 15, 2013 23:40
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Well it just so happens I finally got through Don Quixote today and now I'm looking for something new to read and I've still got that copy of Body on the Beach lying around... 
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Mar 16, 2013 00:44
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I'm all set to run The Body on the Beach if you guys want to do that next. I am moving tomorrow so I would prefer to wait until the beginning of next week, although it will probably just be the first three chapters anyway. It is basically the opposite of The Ponson Case in that the chapters are super bite-sized.
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Mar 16, 2013 00:48
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Good job Duke! The ending was a bit underwhelming but with knowledge that it's not a 'proper' whodunit, it's a lot more enjoyable. I'm up for whatever next.
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Mar 16, 2013 00:59
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Agreed, Guy and Autumncomet. I do hope you all felt I gave you adequate warning since it wasn't as straightforward as the other whodunits we've read so far. Still, it was close enough that I figured you would have fun with it, and I hope that proved to be the case! As far as I'm concerned, everyone definitely solved all the salient points in advance of them being revealed and deserve full credit for solving.
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Mar 16, 2013 02:10
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Wow, I got closer than I thought I would. I'm rather dubious about them just getting away with it though... Good call on Tom Dale early on, this thread has worked things out fairly well every time. No real preference on what's next, though I've read The Moving Finger so I'll just have to follow along for that one.
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Mar 16, 2013 03:37
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I've been following this thread along and was hoping I would catch up in the Ponson case with time to post, but never quite did. But I'll happily read whatever you guys choose next! I want to get better at guessing mysteries.
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Mar 16, 2013 06:08
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So if everyone is ready, we can start The Body on the Beach by Simon Brett. I figure anyone who has the book and wants to start reading can start with the first 3 chapters, everyone else who needs to get a copy of the book just let me know when you are ready to move on or if you need me to wait longer. There is no rush, I just wanted to jump-start the thread and let everyone know I am ready when all of you are.
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Mar 19, 2013 15:23
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After reading Sherringford's review of it in the What Did You Just Finish thread, I'm going to add She Died a Lady to our list of possible future books. It sounds like exactly what we look for in here. Got Body on the Beach, will read the first chapters today. Edit: Done! Short chapters, strong start to our story. Key points so far: Carole and Jude look like they're to be our sleuths, as the police obviously aren't competent enough to solve this mystery. Unidentified figure encountered moving away from the body before Carole discovers it. Was this the killer? Too soon to tell. Body had scars on the inside of the wrist. Carole and the police both suggest drugs, but could it also be from a suicide attempt? Two blows to the neck with a blade of some sort. Wearing a life jacket belonging to the Fethering Yacht Club, which isn't active during the winter. The body disappeared some time between Carole's discovery of it and the ensuing police investigation. Because she was so long in making the phone call, though, this gives whoever moved it plenty of time to do so. Still far too early to begin forming real hypotheses. By the way, does anyone have a decent sense of when this book takes place? It was written in 2000, but the Small Town atmosphere makes it hard to pin down when it's happening. Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 20:17
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Apparently Carole retired earlier than she had expected to. Why?
Zola fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 22:48
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Nice short chapters. I also learned that WPC is a woman police constable, I'd never heard of that before. My first thought is that the killer came back and carried the body into the water to dispose of it, although that seems like it could backfire easily. Perhaps there were accomplices, given the mention of the yacht club. Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 04:01
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So early in the book it's impossible to tell what's a red herring and what isn't. The body could have been removed manually, it could have been pulled back into the sea, heck we don't even know 100% that the guy's dead although it's extremely likely. The person in the green anorak could be anybody and most likely isn't the murderer. My guess is that Carole discovers the anorak and then it turns out the owner just found the body. The victim's wounds weren't bleeding but washed out, his skin had a greyish teint and he was wearing a life west. He was probably murdered at sea and washed ashore. If the Yacht club is involved they could have removed the body to keep the heat off them. They may or may not actually be complicit in the murder. It could be a frame job. Chapters too short, need more fodder e: As for the time this book takes place in. We know it takes place way past the late 50s (that's when the compound was established and bulding laws got more restrictive). Anoraks were popular in the UK during the 70s and 80s, then became a fashion crime in the late 80s before regaining some of their popularity across Europe in the 90s. Generally people are wearing clothing and hairdo that seems reasonable for 2000. A WPC is sent along to question Carole and she suspects it's to prevent claims of sexual harassment which also sounds like it fits the time (that's me assuming public awareness about sexual harassment became more of a thing during the late 90s). Entenzahn fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 24, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 08:34
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I've ordered the book off Amazon. Hopefully it should come soon.
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Mar 20, 2013 08:54
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Entenzahn posted:Chapters too short, need more fodder I figured as much. We will probably do more in the next chunk since the chapters are super tiny. Or we could just increase the pace if people would prefer, but I feel like that has a good chance of leaving someone in the lurch if they get busy and don't check the thread for a few days. We will give Maude and anyone else who wants to join in another few days to get the book and catch up before moving on. If anyone is reading who wants to join in and is either waiting to get the book or just to have some time to read it, please let me know. Also, on a side note, it is already pretty fun being on this side of the equation and watching you all do your guess work.
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Mar 20, 2013 20:44
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I plan on joining in on this discussion as soon as I have some time to read, hopefully tonight if the chapters really are that short!
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Mar 20, 2013 21:03
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I'm swamped with uni work right now so my participation will probably be kind of sporadic. I'm a fast reader though so don't worry about where I'm at, I'll catch up.
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Mar 21, 2013 07:57
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Okay, don't want to stall too long. As these chapters are already pretty short, and there are some even smaller chapters in this next section (like 5 pages on my Kindle which already multiplies page count), we are going to read the next 5 chapters, up through chapter 8. That should be enough for the weekend.
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Mar 22, 2013 17:12
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