|
I still don't understand how Taim was supposed to have held off the madness long enough to reach an apparent age in the middle 30's, given the Slowing.
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 21:31 |
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I still don't understand how Taim was supposed to have held off the madness long enough to reach an apparent age in the middle 30's, given the Slowing. Men spark later than women (by up to if not longer than 10 years), Logain has like 6 years on Rand. Taim could also always have just looked, you know, older. (e: he actually has 5 years on Logain) Also, some madness seems to be less "bad", if the progression was slow enough (there's evidence for varying rates of progression) Taim might already be loving insane, just ... who'd know the difference, sitting him next to Mad Hatter Looneytunes Rand al'Thor? And then Demandred/Dark One could probably restore him to some extent after recruiting. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Mar 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 19:14
|
|
|
api call girl posted:Men spark later (by up to 10 years), Logain has like 6 years on Rand. Taim could also always have just looked, you know, older. They're also quite clear that the madness/sickness happens at different rates for different people. It's probably sped up during the series because of the Dark One touching the world too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 19:19
|
|
|
It's also proportional to the amount of power used. The Breaking wouldn't have lasted for 300 years if everyone went completely bonkers within 2 years. Rand really goes looney after using all those Sa'Angreals. Using the Choden Kaal is basically like channeling *all* the taint. And he did it... twice?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 19:22
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I still don't understand how Taim was supposed to have held off the madness long enough to reach an apparent age in the middle 30's, given the Slowing. We know for a fact that the Dark One waives the taint for his male Dreadlords. It's the single most compelling reason for them to sign up. If he was a Darkfriend from the start, he wouldn't have had any exposure to the taint at all. And of course, Rand channels a ridiculous amount of power. Nevermind the Sa'angreal usage(using Callandor against the Trollocs in the Stone, using Callandor against the Seanchan, using the Choedan Kal to cleanse the Source), just consider his battles with the Forsaken took every last bit of power he could work, and when moving armies, he took to holding the Power for hours on end. Rand fast-tracked, under all the pressure from the Shadow.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 20:20
|
|
|
We also know from the prologue to EOTW that taint created insanity can be cured using the True Power.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 20:37
|
|
|
caleramaen posted:We also know from the prologue to EOTW that taint created insanity can be cured using the True Power. That might only be temporary, for what it's worth.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 20:44
|
|
|
veekie posted:We know for a fact that the Dark One waives the taint for his male Dreadlords. It's the single most compelling reason for them to sign up. If he was a Darkfriend from the start, he wouldn't have had any exposure to the taint at all. Yeah, I don't understand how he signed up before everything started breaking open, though. Anyway, yeah, it's certainly possible. I just think that the balance of the evidence for the first few books we see Taim is that Taim is most likely Demandred. Then there's a pretty definite point where that theory just gets turned off, but all the pro-Taimandred evidence (so-called aiel, etc.) is never really explained fully. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Mar 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I don't understand how he signed up before everything started breaking open, though. Again, it's still flimsy evidence, particularly when the proponents of the theory have to go and paste dictionary.com definitions for support.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 21:06
|
|
|
api call girl posted:Again, it's still flimsy evidence, particularly when the proponents of the theory have to go and paste dictionary.com definitions for support. I'd be surprised if there's a single plausible WoT theory that hasn't had someone past a dictionary.com defnition in favor of it at some point or other.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 21:10
|
|
|
So is there a chart somewhere that shows us where... and who... the Forsaken are during the course of all 14 books? Have read the series twice and I still have a little confusion about who/where/when they are after Mask of Mirrors and being resurrected into new bodies and all that. Could use a handy chart. Perhaps drawn in crayon.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 21:27
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'd be surprised if there's a single plausible WoT theory that hasn't had someone past a dictionary.com defnition in favor of it at some point or other. No, going to dictionary.com is literally the main thrust of any support for "Taimandred".
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 21:28
|
|
|
Is it just me or does the whole 13x13 forcible turning thing kind of undermine the entire point and resolution of the Dark One?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2013 22:33
|
|
|
api call girl posted:No, going to dictionary.com is literally the main thrust of any support for "Taimandred". Demandred was described as almost as strong and almost as accomplished as Lews Therin, and was also an extremely accomplished strategist. Mazrim Taim was almost as tall as Rand and almost as strong in the Power, and he only failed to defeat the Great Captain Davram Bashere in the field because that happened to be the day Rand declared as the Dragon and the Pattern eliminated the false ones. Additionally, Taim uses the term "severing" when nobody but the Forsaken uses anything other than the modern Aes Sedai terms.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 00:27
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Demandred was described as almost as strong and almost as accomplished as Lews Therin, and was also an extremely accomplished strategist. Mazrim Taim was almost as tall as Rand and almost as strong in the Power, and he only failed to defeat the Great Captain Davram Bashere in the field because that happened to be the day Rand declared as the Dragon and the Pattern eliminated the false ones. Yeah, there were a lot if data points. Taim was either forsaken-trained or one himself, and up till the late series there was no reason to think any forsaken were or could have trained him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 00:35
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Demandred was described as almost as strong and almost as accomplished as Lews Therin, and was also an extremely accomplished strategist. Mazrim Taim was almost as tall as Rand and almost as strong in the Power, and he only failed to defeat the Great Captain Davram Bashere in the field because that happened to be the day Rand declared as the Dragon and the Pattern eliminated the false ones. Mazrim Taim's period of activity predates the period of activity for all other Forsaken but Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel. Aginor and Balthamel were the first out aside from ol' Ishy and they were decrepit. No way in hell Taim gathered an army and fought Bashere in the roughly 6 months-ish if we had to also factor in him actually being Demandred. Keep in mind that it took a bit more than that long for Rahvin, Sammael, Bel'al etc. to establish themselves. And even longer for them to actually take the reins of their respective nations. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, there were a lot if data points. Taim was either forsaken-trained or one himself, and up till the late series there was no reason to think any forsaken were or could have trained him. Were, maybe. Could have, well, that's pretty much what Lanfear tricked Asmodean into doing for Rand. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Mar 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 01:33
|
|
|
api call girl posted:Mazrim Taim's period of activity predates the period of activity for all other Forsaken but Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel. Aginor and Balthamel were the first out aside from ol' Ishy and they were decrepit. No way in hell Taim gathered an army and fought Bashere in the roughly 6 months-ish if we had to also factor in him actually being Demandred. I thought the theory was that Taim was killed sometime after being captured by the Aes Sedai and Demandred was pretending to be him later. I wonder if people will be able to find anything definitive by going through all those notes. There's probably plenty of stuff that got changed later on still in there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 03:05
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I don't understand how he signed up before everything started breaking open, though. Consider, there were Dreadlords at the fall of Manetheren. Clearly signing up doesn't require much more than the oaths to the Shadow and getting the Dark One's attention(which, even prior to the seals failing, can be accomplished with his name)
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 03:51
|
|
|
Going back to what was said about using certain terms and Rand's insanity, I think the moment when it really dawned on me just how loving insane he'd become was when 'he spun a web' and then he pauses and freaks the gently caress out because he realises that's what Lews Therin would have said. I must re read the entire series and track his madness.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 03:59
|
|
|
VelveetaAvenger posted:I thought the theory was that Taim was killed sometime after being captured by the Aes Sedai and Demandred was pretending to be him later. That was strictly a response to Jedit. The standard theory is that Taim was replaced. Jedit posited that the fact that for Taim to have done what he did prior to Demandred breaking free was that he was Demandred, which is a whole new kettle of fish.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 04:13
|
|
|
Two Finger posted:Going back to what was said about using certain terms and Rand's insanity, I think the moment when it really dawned on me just how loving insane he'd become was when 'he spun a web' and then he pauses and freaks the gently caress out because he realises that's what Lews Therin would have said. I must re read the entire series and track his madness. It'd be interesting to chart his progress down the books. Share whatever you find?
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
veekie posted:Consider, there were Dreadlords at the fall of Manetheren. Clearly signing up doesn't require much more than the oaths to the Shadow and getting the Dark One's attention(which, even prior to the seals failing, can be accomplished with his name) Yeah, but Ishy was out then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 04:58
|
|
|
api call girl posted:That was strictly a response to Jedit. The standard theory is that Taim was replaced. Jedit posited that the fact that for Taim to have done what he did prior to Demandred breaking free was that he was Demandred, which is a whole new kettle of fish. Ah, gotcha. I wasn't super big on following the theories, but I'd usually binge read them every couple years.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 06:08
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, but Ishy was out then. Ishamael was also out since at least relatively soon after Rand's birth, considering he personally punished the Black Ajah council for loving up on killing several Amyrlins in a row and loving up the hunt for the Dragon Reborn and handed the Black Ajah leadership to Alviarin. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Mar 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 06:13
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure in AMOL it was mentioned Demandred trained Taim. Maybe I just read it through too fast?
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 06:31
|
|
|
Bluedust posted:I'm pretty sure in AMOL it was mentioned Demandred trained Taim. Maybe I just read it through too fast? That's right, but we're mostly talking with the limited amount of information we had as of books 6-9, which is when the assertion has been made that Taim was originally meant to be Demandred.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 06:41
|
|
|
veekie posted:It'd be interesting to chart his progress down the books. Share whatever you find? OK, I'll do that. It won't be in any great hurry as I have exams, but I'll post here and there about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 11:49
|
|
|
Do/did Dreadlords actually get any perks? I thought they couldn't automatically boss Shadowspawn around, but had to intimidate them the old fashioned way due to lacking the Dark One's special mark. Implying they didn't get the whole immortality*/protection from the taint shadow-tether thing that the Forsaken got. Perhaps being dependent on the Bore being "open" (at least to AMOL levels). But then there's the Red Veils so I dunno what the gently caress (then again, there would be a whole lot more of those if they all lived for 600+ years/forever). *If it actually grants immortality and not just an easy way for the Dark One to do his soul transmigration thing. Didn't appear to grant physical immortality to Aginor and Balthamel...
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 19:14
|
|
|
It's not immortality, it seems to be some kind of saidin skimming siphon. At least, as far as Asmodean implies his were.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 20:23
|
|
|
Terez posted up a transcript of a bunch of signing questions from the Birmingham event. Some really good stuff. For example: Moiraine's speech in the tent at Merrilor was majorly RJ's. Also, Brandon kind of dodged around the question as to MASSIVE ENDING SPOILERS if the voice Rand heard was Egwene, or if Lan had actually died. Also, we've never seen Nakomi in any other guise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 20:24
|
|
|
Speaking of Nakomi, I know this gets asked a lot but I always forget no matter how many times I read the series: when Egwene first adventures into TAR who is that old lady?
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
GoofyLM posted:Speaking of Nakomi, I know this gets asked a lot but I always forget no matter how many times I read the series: when Egwene first adventures into TAR who is that old lady? Lanfear, IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
api call girl posted:For example: Moiraine's speech in the tent at Merrilor was majorly RJ's. Moiraine's speech was one of my favorite parts. In some ways, it felt like the climax of the book, where everyone who has been bickering for 13 books finally said, "alright, let's go kick some Shadow rear end." As for that second thing... What?! I thought it was pretty drat clear that Lan survived, but maybe I was fatigued by the end. Is there any evidence to suggest it's even ambiguous? Nyneve wasn't going batshit insane at the end, so I figured he was absolutely alive.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2013 23:17
|
|
|
basx posted:Moiraine's speech was one of my favorite parts. In some ways, it felt like the climax of the book, where everyone who has been bickering for 13 books finally said, "alright, let's go kick some Shadow rear end." The theory on that probably goes "pattern fuckery". I don't know. I haven't been following Theoryland chat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 00:11
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Anyway, yeah, it's certainly possible. I just think that the balance of the evidence for the first few books we see Taim is that Taim is most likely e Demandred. Then there's a pretty definite point where that theory just gets turned off, but all the pro-Taimandred evidence (so-called aiel, etc.) is never really explained fully. This isn't true. At all. Aiel means dedicated, Taim, the guy who named himself M'Heal and was linguistically clever enough to claim a name that implied he led everything and very one certainly spoke the Old Tongue well enough to make a pun. You've got the Shaido running around, Taim wants to undermine Rands confidence, sure he wants to encourage doubts about the so called dedicated. This is up there with the Broken Wolf debate as far as how is this even a thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 00:21
|
|
|
Pimpmust posted:Do/did Dreadlords actually get any perks? The DO wouldn't hand out immortality that easily, since that is the goal most of the Dreadlords were striving for. Absorbing the Taint for them is trivial to him though. The Taint after all, is all him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 03:01
|
|
|
Blind Melon posted:This isn't true. At all. Aiel means dedicated, Taim, the guy who named himself M'Heal and was linguistically clever enough to claim a name that implied he led everything and very one certainly spoke the Old Tongue well enough to make a pun. You've got the Shaido running around, Taim wants to undermine Rands confidence, sure he wants to encourage doubts about the so called dedicated. One of the more convincing Taimandred arguments to my mind was posted in this (or the other) thread a dozen or so pages back -- don't remember by whom, I'm afraid. But the Dark One says "let the Lord of Chaos reign" which has been interpreted as giving Rand a free hand to do what he wants and not attack him directly (because TDO would rather have him serve than fight it out), he tells this to Demandred and others. Indeed, this book marks Dem's first appearance in the series, in the prologue, in one other chapter in Shayol Ghul, and at the very end, where he says "Have I not done well?" and there is much evil laughing. But we haven't seen a single thing he's done all book, nor in the books to follow. Seems a huge throwaway and pointless arc if it's not meant to imply that yes, we have seen some of his actions in that very book. Jordan's too good of a writer to waste the reader's time on clues that don't exist or mean anything. On the other hand, if he is Taim, he has become the head of a school of male channelers and has helped drive an enormous wedge between Rand and the Aes Sedai. Also, reread the chapter where Taim kills a grey man that is attacking Rand and tell me why Taim is there. When Rand presses him, he says found a new recruit (but not one who learns superfast, which Rand is worried about). But Taim is finding several recruits per day, so that's clearly not why he was there. And why does Taim say he would "give much to be sure" when Rand says that Sammael sent the grey man? Like, what difference would that make to Taim as Taim? What would he do differently if it were Sammael or Moghedian or w/e? OTOH, it makes a huge difference to Demandred, who along with the rest of the Forsaken have been told not to attack Rand directly -- that way he knows which Forsaken is not obeying TDO which gives him hugely important info and strength in any discussions with that Forsaken.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 04:37
|
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:Also, reread the chapter where Taim kills a grey man that is attacking Rand and tell me why Taim is there. When Rand presses him, he says found a new recruit (but not one who learns superfast, which Rand is worried about). But Taim is finding several recruits per day, so that's clearly not why he was there. And why does Taim say he would "give much to be sure" when Rand says that Sammael sent the grey man? Like, what difference would that make to Taim as Taim? What would he do differently if it were Sammael or Moghedian or w/e? OTOH, it makes a huge difference to Demandred, who along with the rest of the Forsaken have been told not to attack Rand directly -- that way he knows which Forsaken is not obeying TDO which gives him hugely important info and strength in any discussions with that Forsaken. If Demandred is his patron, he might be concerned about actions Demandred is taking without his knowledge. Also if another Forsaken knows Taim is working for Demandred, they might plant evidence Taim is double crossing Rand just to gently caress with Demandred. Taim has plenty of motivation for wanting to know which Forsaken are plotting against Demandred, as he could easily become an expendable piece of that particular game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 04:50
|
|
|
caleramaen posted:If Demandred is his patron, he might be concerned about actions Demandred is taking without his knowledge. Also if another Forsaken knows Taim is working for Demandred, they might plant evidence Taim is double crossing Rand just to gently caress with Demandred. Taim has plenty of motivation for wanting to know which Forsaken are plotting against Demandred, as he could easily become an expendable piece of that particular game. But that's not canon either; Taim didn't get recruited until later iirc. And it still doesn't answer why Taim was there when the grey man was (of course, I don't know of any viable answer for this, unless he was looking for the angreal I think he suspected Rand had).
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 05:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 21:31 |
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:But that's not canon either; Taim didn't get recruited until later iirc. And it still doesn't answer why Taim was there when the grey man was (of course, I don't know of any viable answer for this, unless he was looking for the angreal I think he suspected Rand had). I'm pretty sure Taim is a Darkfriend by this point at least. In fact the only way the whole "Lord of chaos" thing makes any sense without Taim being Demandred is if he's working for Demandred. So I'm gonna say Taim is probably working for Demandred when he meets Rand. As to why exactly he is there at that particular time? 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2013 05:22
|
|