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Yeah but everyone also thinks the "last breath" is some sort of clever workaround so there's no way he'll actually die. You just can't nail this thing down. Especially now that the "becomes undead" option has been used for Durkon.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:28
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You're all over thinking it, the answer clearly involves some sort of aquatic subtype.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:31
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Aquatic creatures still breathe. The obvious solution to any prophecy is just that Kobold was a lying dick with a grudge against Belkar in the first place, so he's not exactly sacrosanct.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:33
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Apologies for the forthcoming wall of black. Blame everyone who hasn't bothered to get Start of Darkness yet, not me.  Eh, I don't see it that way. (Obviously.) "I need to leave. I need to get as far away from here as possible. The Plan must continue. The Plan must continue. The Plan must continue. The Plan...must..." Especially with the glowing eyes, that sure looke like magical compulsion to me. Sure, he's able to override it temporarily to save Right-Eye, but even on the way out he's saying "I don't know. Somewhere else. Anywhere else. The Plan must continue." Furthermore, at no point after he puts on the Mantle does Redcloak stop trying to subvert the gates. He has a chance to abandon the quest and flee with Right-Eye, and turns it down. He helps draft Right-Eye's family into Xykon's cause and watches them get slaughtered. He murders Right-Eye to protect the Plan. Sure, you can make the argument that Xykon guilts him into subservience at the end of the book, using Right-Eye's death as the lever, but at no point before that does it even cross Redcloak's mind to step away from the Plan, no matter the cost. That screams to me a long term compulsion built into the Mantle to ensure that whomever wears it must try to fulfill the Plan, come what may. It's not overtly spelled out, no, but like many things in Order of the Stick, it's there for you if you look for it.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:41
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jng2058 posted:Furthermore, at no point after he puts on the Mantle does Redcloak stop trying to subvert the gates. He has a chance to abandon the quest and flee with Right-Eye, and turns it down. He helps draft Right-Eye's family into Xykon's cause and watches them get slaughtered. He murders Right-Eye to protect the Plan. Sure, you can make the argument that Xykon guilts him into subservience at the end of the book, using Right-Eye's death as the lever, but at no point before that does it even cross Redcloak's mind to step away from the Plan, no matter the cost. Yes he does? He was very much intent on giving up the plan after the episode with the circus, in favor of Right-Eye and family. The only compulsion involved was Xykon threatening to kill everyone with ogres. But besides that, saying it's just magical compulsion makes it much, much less interesting. The whole tragedy of the book centers around Redcloak's psychology, and nullifying his free will with magic makes the whole thing pointless.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:50
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Is start of darkness available in pdf?
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Mar 6, 2013 21:51
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greatn posted:Not gonna happen, but the best new cleric for the group would be Redcloak, if he ever realized he already accomplished what he wanted and can bargain for his new state's sovereignty in exchange for his services. Ah, great catch. I know Rich grumbles about being tied to the rule set but it's quite a productive constraint in a lot of ways. And it's hilarious when he goes off a gently caress YOU SPERGS rant: quote:Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:52
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Carrasco posted:But besides that, saying it's just magical compulsion makes it much, much less interesting. The whole tragedy of the book centers around Redcloak's psychology, and nullifying his free will with magic makes the whole thing pointless. This is exactly how I feel as well. Making Redcloak's actions the result of some magical outside influence would undermine the entire character. Edit: quote:I know Rich grumbles about being tied to the rule set but it's quite a productive constraint in a lot of ways. And it's hilarious when he goes off a gently caress YOU SPERGS rant: I completely and totally agree with Rich here. The most important thing is to tell an interesting and entertaining story, D&D spergs be damned.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:54
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sebmojo posted:gently caress YOU SPERGS rant: I love Rich. 
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Mar 6, 2013 22:01
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DaveWoo posted:This is exactly how I feel as well. Making Redcloak's actions the result of some magical outside influence would undermine the entire character. There's another good one he did recently about people complaining the the Order 'hasn't progressed', whatever that means: quote:The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:03
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DaveWoo posted:I completely and totally agree with Rich here. The most important thing is to tell an interesting and entertaining story, D&D spergs be damned.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:07
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greatn posted:Is start of darkness available in pdf? Nope. The transition elecronic --> print is possible (so the Kickstarter stories might end up collected into a book later); but Rich is strongly hostile to the reverse. Print-only stories shall remain so.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:12
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The Snarl is grognards.txt, ripping apart the comfortably cliche fantasy world created by the mythical gods of roleplaying in the dawn of time.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:13
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Carrasco posted:Yes he does? He was very much intent on giving up the plan after the episode with the circus, in favor of Right-Eye and family. The only compulsion involved was Xykon threatening to kill everyone with ogres. That's not how I read that. Yes, Right-Eye gets intimidated by Xykon into working for him, but Redcloak never gives up trying. Practically the first thing he says to Right-Eye after missing him for 18 years is to ask him to help restart the Plan. Furthermore, when given the explicit choice between spending time with a hot young goblin girl who shares his interests and trying to break out the MitD to further the Plan, Redcloak picks the Monster. That he'd been floundering without Xykon's help doesn't ameliorate the fact that he'd kept trying. Carrasco posted:But besides that, saying it's just magical compulsion makes it much, much less interesting. The whole tragedy of the book centers around Redcloak's psychology, and nullifying his free will with magic makes the whole thing pointless. This...is a better argument. Its hard to argue with that point, though possibly one could make a case that it becomes about how the Dark One's own rage is destroying the possibility of peace for his people that he claims he's trying to attain for them. But then that shifts the onus to the Dark One, who's off-screen, rather than Redcloak, who's a major antagonist. Hmmm. Well, outside of maybe giving Redcloak a "gently caress YOU, Dark one!" moment at the very end of the story when he realizes it's all been for naught, I don't see how the magic really advances the story, so I'll concede that with the way Rich does things, the most that the Mantle can be doing is pushing Redcloak in a certain direction, rather than actively controlling him.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:24
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I always figured that the planet inside the rifts actually was the Snarl. It was rogue creation energy, so when the gates stabilized it, it returned to what it originally was, a newly formed plane of existence. That would explain why it hasn't actually attacked anyone in any of the three locations that are now unprotected, because if I understand it correctly, the uncontrolled rifts were a major threat to existence, so much so that the gods themselves helped to suppress any knowledge of their existence once they were sealed, yet Liran's gate has been destroyed years ago and nothing has really happened as a result. The Snarl simply doesn't exist anymore. It would make for a nice twist ending. Then again, a twist that you can figure out halfway through the story because the author literally showed it to you is not a very good one. e X fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 22:40
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jng2058 posted:That's not how I read that. Yes, Right-Eye gets intimidated by Xykon into working for him, but Redcloak never gives up trying. Practically the first thing he says to Right-Eye after missing him for 18 years is to ask him to help restart the Plan. Furthermore, when given the explicit choice between spending time with a hot young goblin girl who shares his interests and trying to break out the MitD to further the Plan, Redcloak picks the Monster. That he'd been floundering without Xykon's help doesn't ameliorate the fact that he'd kept trying.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:49
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Maybe I'm just bitter since I liked Durkon and now I want the pain to spread around, but I think V will take the whole Durkula situation very, very hard because she wasn't around to help her friends in any fashion through this whole attack due to being super moody. "I have had enough time to think. I now await the abomination my deeds have spawned." Indeed.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:50
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HenessyHero posted:Maybe I'm just bitter since I liked Durkon and now I want the pain to spread around, but I think V will take the whole Durkula situation very, very hard because she wasn't around to help her friends in any fashion through this whole attack due to being super moody. "I have had enough time to think. I now await the abomination my deeds have spawned." Indeed. I am personally hanging out for Ultimate Form V, when he gets over his angst, channels his powers with the aid of newfound emotional maturity and starts straight up wrecking poo poo. Of course, that's probably when the fiends will grab him. RICH 
sebmojo fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 23:03
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All these black boxes are taunting me, so I think it's about time I bit the bullet and bought Start of Darkness and Origin of PCs. Are they print-only, or is there a way to get them (legally of course) as a digital download?
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Mar 6, 2013 23:04
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Mikl posted:All these black boxes are taunting me, so I think it's about time I bit the bullet and bought Start of Darkness and Origin of PCs. OH GOD SO loving GOOD Origin is solid circa 1-100 OOTs strips, but Start of Darkness is pretty much the best thing ever. Unfortunately there is no way to get them as s download, so you'll need to go here.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:10
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elmer fud posted:I really hope that Durkon retains some sense of himself Agreed! Right now he's all Renfieldy, but hopefully we'll see Durkula get more badass once he's freed from thralldom.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:16
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sebmojo posted:OH GOD SO loving GOOD I need to buy these when I get ~$30
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Mar 6, 2013 23:22
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Mikl posted:Are they print-only, or is there a way to get them (legally of course) as a digital download? Print only. There are various reasons, the most important being those ones: 1. It gives hobby shops something to sell. (Yep, if you manage a brick-and-mortar store, you can order these books wholesale.) Rich likes hobby shops. 2. Less  as the fans who buy these books are less likely to scan them and put them on P2P than they are to share a digital copy with a friend, who may then also share it and before you know it it's seeded on torrent trackers, whatever that means. (Computer stuff gives us so many mixed metaphors.)3. Print runs are expensive. If digital downloads were offered, they would compete with the printed books, so less books would be sold and the money invested in printing them wouldn't be recouped, and also more storage space would become permanently occupied in the warehouse, so overall it would be bad for business.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:34
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My Lovely Horse posted:Yeah but everyone also thinks the "last breath" is some sort of clever workaround so there's no way he'll actually die. You just can't nail this thing down. Especially now that the "becomes undead" option has been used for Durkon. Necklace of Adaptation. He'll never need oxygen again. (That doesn't work because respiration is required to speak, and a mute Belkar is no fun at all, but it's fun to throw out more speculation.)
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Mar 6, 2013 23:41
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When V attacked Xykon and killed Jirix, Jirix came back with a message from the Dark One to Redcloak. Redcloak isn't stupid enough to piss off the divine being that he'll be looking at when his eyes open after he dies.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:44
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For those saying Redcloak will never turn from the plan because he has nothing else, he does now; Gobbtopia is a major massive hope for his race.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:57
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Guys, if you haven't read Start of Darkness, you should go buy it immediately. It's one of the absolute best OotS stories. It's easily the best of the three print-only books. OtOoPCs isn't bad, and SSaDTs has some great short arcs, but Start of Darkness is entirely awesome from start to finish.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:59
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bartolimu posted:Necklace of Adaptation. He'll never need oxygen again. Ring of Psionics. Boom.
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Mar 7, 2013 00:18
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MikeJF posted:For those saying Redcloak will never turn from the plan because he has nothing else, he does now; Gobbtopia is a major massive hope for his race. But he must fear that Gobbotopia will be temporary as long as goblins are nothing but monsters and most of the world is inhabited by non-monster races. And the presence of a simple level 18 cleric will not protect it forever. His plan with the Snarl has the opportunity to change this status quo permanently.
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Mar 7, 2013 00:18
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Yeah, their problem isn't one of politics, it is literally woven into the fabric of this universe. At the moment, Gobbotobia is nothing but an epic campaign.
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Mar 7, 2013 00:33
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ConfusedUs posted:Guys, if you haven't read Start of Darkness, you should go buy it immediately. It's one of the absolute best OotS stories. It's easily the best of the three print-only books. OtOoPCs isn't bad, and SSaDTs has some great short arcs, but Start of Darkness is entirely awesome from start to finish. So glad I got it as my Kickstarter book.
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Mar 7, 2013 00:38
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Yeah, basically. Start of Darkness is proof positive that Rich cares more about Villains.
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Mar 7, 2013 00:54
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I've jumped around the archives a bit in the last few days, and I realized I missed a running joke regarding Hobgoblins and gouda. I'd remembered the reference from the hypothetical Roy vampire, but there are a couple others: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html
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Mar 7, 2013 00:57
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Check the label on the crate in #514 and #517. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0517.html
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Mar 7, 2013 02:06
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TunaSpleen posted:Check the label on the crate in #514 and #517. We should point out that, beyond the Gouda joke, that Haley herself is in fact "imported from Greysky City."
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Mar 7, 2013 02:16
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MikeJF posted:For those saying Redcloak will never turn from the plan because he has nothing else, he does now; Gobbtopia is a major massive hope for his race. Sefer posted:I've jumped around the archives a bit in the last few days, and I realized I missed a running joke regarding Hobgoblins and gouda. I'd remembered the reference from the hypothetical Roy vampire, but there are a couple others:
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Mar 7, 2013 02:19
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Toussaint Louverture posted:Yeah, basically. Start of Darkness is proof positive that Rich cares more about Villains. I think well-done villains are just intrinsically more interesting. Fried Chicken posted:I always took Jirix stomping on the demon roach as symbolic of his turn from Redcloak and Xykon. That if/when it is returned to it will have reverted to a collapsed and sectarian state populated with raiding parties, rather than a coherent nation. Jirix doesn't have Redcloak's "Betterment of all goblins, play the long game" mentality and will turn to short sighted power and destructive acts. That's a very broad conclusion to draw on not much evidence. Don't forget Xykon was about one round from choking Jirix to death when his phylactery got elfnapped. Plus, he's an all-powerful CE psychopath. Jirix has no reason to love things (like the roaches) that are associated with Xykon. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 02:21
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So what happened at the end of the strip anyway? I know Durkon drained Belkar most of the way but look at the background of the panel where he keels over, it looks like he activated a trap.
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Mar 7, 2013 02:28
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In 3.5 you can only run for an amount of rounds equal to your CON. Belkar was drained to 1 CON by Durkula, so he can only run for 1 round. Hence the strip title, "Running on Empty".
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Mar 7, 2013 02:30
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Cliff Racer posted:So what happened at the end of the strip anyway? I know Durkon drained Belkar most of the way but look at the background of the panel where he keels over, it looks like he activated a trap. I think it's just supposed to represent him getting dizzy and lightheaded from blood loss.
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Mar 7, 2013 02:31
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