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I swear to god if I ever get my own poo poo off the ground I'm allowing whatever the hell people want and stocking various beers in a series of fridges. Those who gently caress up this deal would be those I do not want to keep.
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Mar 9, 2013 06:46
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Sorry to interrupt Suit Chat but I've got an interview next week for an entry level 'Software Engineer' position with the company I've been working for for the past few years. I'm currently working in a sort-of production role, but I've done a bit of programming to make my own work easier and recently got called on to help out the engineering department with a big project (I wrote around 50 scripts, mostly web scrapers and scripts to parse that data for loading into our databases, basically). I guess I did well enough that they want to bring me over there full-time. I'm fairly certain that the job is mine if I want it and the interview is mostly formality, but, well, I'm not sure what kind of salary I should be looking for. I'm someone without much professional programming experience, not a ton of interesting hobby programming experience, and with a degree in History. The manager I'd be working for guaranteed that I'd be making at least as much as I am now or possibly more--but right now I'm making less than 30k (though he didn't know what my wage was and wasn't sure what the offered wage would be). I see the kinds of salaries that are getting thrown around in this thread and I have no idea what to expect or what I should demand. The cost of living here isn't bad (I'm doing fine with my salary now--though I've seen posts in this thread saying that 60k was hard to get by on in cities where I managed to survive with less than 20k, so I don't know), so I imagine that drives the wage down a bit. And the programming is simple enough that they aren't trying to attract incredibly well-qualified programmers--really, the production side is so much more complex than the code that they prefer to bring in people with internal production experience over outside people with more programming experience--so I imagine they aren't paying the kinds of salaries that a lot of established tech companies are. The company's too small for glassdoor to be of any use and the only person in the engineering department I know is the one who'd be my manager, who can't really discuss compensation openly. So, anyone have any ideas what kind of wage I should be looking for with few qualifications in an entry-level, not-terribly-complex job in an area with a relatively low cost of living? And if it matters at all, the guy who'll be interviewing me will be wearing shorts and flip-flops, and if I wear a suit I'll be laughed out of the office.
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Mar 9, 2013 10:37
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I am mostly familiar with programming jobs in major coastal cities, where the typical starting salary for a programmer with a BS in CS but relatively little experience is somewhere around 70k (in industry, less in academia). That number is super rough, because cost of living in different cities can be considerably higher or lower. Lateral moves in a company are a completely different beast though, and you usually aren't brought up to the "fair market rate" when you switch into a programmer role. You are valuable to them because you know the company, and can bring a production perspective to the development team. You are probably not going to be as effective of a programmer as someone hired specifically for that role though, at least until you have time to ramp up. I definitely wouldn't expect to go from 30k to 60k or anything crazy like that. Assuming that they give you real programming work in the new role, you will learn and grow and may be able to get a better paying job elsewhere in 2 years or so if they don't compensate you appropriately. I am really bad at being pushy in salary negotiations, so take this advice with that in mind. I would probably wait to see if they give you a number, and if they don't then I would ask for 35k and say that I would like to be brought up to the fair market rate over time, once I can demonstrate skills in my new role. I would take the new role as an opportunity to learn as much as possible about software development, because you are basically being given free training in a potentially lucrative field.
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Mar 9, 2013 15:56
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Entry level programmers get paid more than 35k in all markets in the U.S.A. Are you in an area with other companies? What if you got a job at one of them?
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Mar 9, 2013 21:17
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armorer posted:I am mostly familiar with programming jobs in major coastal cities, where the typical starting salary for a programmer with a BS in CS but relatively little experience is somewhere around 70k (in industry, less in academia). That number is super rough, because cost of living in different cities can be considerably higher or lower. I was promoted once and discovered later on that my salary was below the minimum for my new position. I researched what the rate should be, went on glassdoor and everything, and started interviewing for other jobs - I brought this up with my boss and his boss and within a week my salary increased by 20k and they gave a 10k bonus as apology for having me below the minimum.
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Mar 9, 2013 22:26
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shrughes posted:Entry level programmers get paid more than 35k in all markets in the U.S.A. Are you in an area with other companies? What if you got a job at one of them? That said, 35k is still too low. If I had to put forward a number in your situation, I think I would say maybe 50k (or what other entry-level coders make there, minus 5-10k) and be open to it being negotiated a bit down. Then if they didn't bring me to market wages within a year or two, I'd leave for a different company and not mention my current salary.
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Mar 9, 2013 22:56
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Yeah, I'm at a point where I don't think I'd be able to get even an entry-level programming job somewhere else. I'm entirely self-taught and don't have a BS, significant work experience, or much example code to back me up. Most of the code I would want to show off to a potential employer is work-related, so I can't--I've done a handful of projects on my own but most of them aren't to the point that I'd be confident in using them as examples. Obviously I'll be trying to build up a solid github, etc., in the future, but for now I don't have it. I'm seeing this as a pretty good opportunity to get a start in the field, so I'm not so much worried that they won't pay me the usual rate as I am worried that they'll try to totally lowball me. Like I don't care about making a ton of money, but I do care about not getting screwed. Anyway, seeing some numbers thrown around has given me a better idea what to expect, so thanks.
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Mar 10, 2013 04:09
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Wanted to throw some thank-yous at this thread. I've been lurking it for pretty much the whole time it's been around and some of the stuff posted here has been really invaluable (The exact sample question in the OP came up in the interview that got me a summer internship!). I'm graduating this semester, and after months of incredibly stressful job searching, I landed a position that pays me way too much money to develop an open source product, and I couldn't be more excited.  Anyway, I've been interviewing for new grad positions at a lot of places, from tech giants to unknown startups, and here are some (maybe) helpful things regarding interviews: - Know the ins and outs / low level details of the languages you like, and have a general knowledge of ones you don't. Weirdly enough, I might never have gotten my current job if it weren't for the programming languages thread in YOSPOS. - Know your data structures and sort/search algorithms cold -- this gets said a lot but its super important. - Know basic things about concurrency, RAM/caching, how CPUs work, and how those can all work together to screw you if you aren't being careful. - For some reason I've been asked variants of this question by like 50% of companies I've interview at...so learn it? - I never felt that attire really mattered that much. I'm on the East Coast, and I always wore a nice button-down shirt and pants. I would err on the side of business casual, though. I had a lot of companies say explicitly that they did not expect interviewees to come in a suit. - If you're funny, use that. A good sense of humor about things can turn a dire error in a technical interview into a "hey we've all spent 4 hours debugging a typo before" moment. Just because an interview is technical doesn't mean you have to be a robot. - Practice practice practice. Using Careercup really helped me get into the groove of technical interview-type questions, especially early on.
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Mar 10, 2013 07:23
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shrughes posted:Entry level programmers get paid more than 35k in all markets in the U.S.A. Are you in an area with other companies? What if you got a job at one of them? I don't think it is even remotely acceptable to work for 35k as an entry level programmer, if you have the skill set to land that job. It sounds like he is being given an opportunity to grow into a new position though, which is why I put out a low number. If you don't really have programming skills but have shown some promise, then your company is taking a gamble to train you in the new role. If you want the new role more than you want a raise, then I wouldn't be too pushy on the salary. (Again I will admit outright that I am not a good salary negotiator!) I think the best outcome though is to get the new role, learn a lot, and then use your new skills to get a high paying job. Maybe 35k is too low, but I don't think most companies will launch you from 30k to 50k without knowing that you can do a good job in the new role.
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Mar 10, 2013 21:28
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Guys wearing a suit is the only way to look nice
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Mar 10, 2013 23:44
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So I'm at a bit of an awkward state. I've been working with the same company for 3 years now while I finish my CS degree (I was only two semesters in when hired). I started as an intern doing every boring job they could find. After proving myself with a few projects, my responsibilities grew and eventually I was promoted to a part time programming position. About a year ago, the only other developer at our location left. We're an engineering company, and for about 8 months I was the sole developer for our test software (.NET) communicating with GPIB to hardware like network analyzers, storing readings in our MSSQL database, and generating a whole variety of calculated reports. I've been working 20-25 hours a week here regularly, and have moved up in pay several times while still holding a part time status. Over the past couple months I've been the only programmer on a project that requires design of a CPLD which is reprogrammed with code multiple times automatically throughout a test, which is actually a large new product line the company has been pushing. (I keep hearing it would be a substantial boost in profits.) So more or less I know I'm valuable. The offer my boss told me I should expect a few weeks ago is $40k, and I'm getting close to graduation now. I'm in Orlando, and I know that's a low offer at a company with at least 200 employees. I think they're going to try to corner me to accept/reject an offer a few weeks before graduations, so I guess my question is how do I get leverage in that situation? I'd like to take several other interviews first to see what's available before settling in here, but I'm not sure how I'm going to fit that in with my work and class schedule. I figure I have a fair amount of leverage due to my time at the company and knowledge with the software I've written/maintained. I'm more or less ready to walk after graduation if they don't budge on that offer. Thoughts?
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Mar 11, 2013 03:14
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That is a pathetic offer. Shop around.
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Mar 11, 2013 03:22
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Yeah, you need to find time to interview elsewhere.
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Mar 11, 2013 03:27
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Steve French posted:Guys wearing a suit is the only way to look nice I wear skirts to work and look awesome so there 
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Mar 11, 2013 03:57
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CCrew posted:So I'm at a bit of an awkward state. I've been working with the same company for 3 years now while I finish my CS degree (I was only two semesters in when hired). I started as an intern doing every boring job they could find. After proving myself with a few projects, my responsibilities grew and eventually I was promoted to a part time programming position. About a year ago, the only other developer at our location left. We're an engineering company, and for about 8 months I was the sole developer for our test software (.NET) communicating with GPIB to hardware like network analyzers, storing readings in our MSSQL database, and generating a whole variety of calculated reports. I've been working 20-25 hours a week here regularly, and have moved up in pay several times while still holding a part time status. Over the past couple months I've been the only programmer on a project that requires design of a CPLD which is reprogrammed with code multiple times automatically throughout a test, which is actually a large new product line the company has been pushing. (I keep hearing it would be a substantial boost in profits.) So more or less I know I'm valuable. Interview around and get a counter offer. If you really like the company you are working for then that will give you the leverage to ask for more, or at least feel more comfortable about it. There are a bunch of software companies in downtown, look at PowerDMS, EnvyLabs, Voxeo. I think UCF may even be looking for developers and will offer slightly more than 50k for a salary as long as you hold a degree.
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Mar 11, 2013 04:10
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That's a very low offer. It sounds like you have pretty substantial coding experience at this point, you should be able to get much more than that. I didn't have that much experience and I still got more than twice that coming out of school. Of course, if you want to stay local, your options are more limited. Since you're currently working part-time and haven't graduated, I don't think it would be taboo to tell your current employer that you're shopping around. Just phrase it in business-speak: "I've had a great time working here, and I've learned a lot, but with my graduation coming up I figured it would be a good time to look around at other prospects to see if I can find any that align more closely with my career vision." Of course I don't know your company culture so use your own judgment here. But I think the odds of them just going, "You're shopping around? YOU'RE FIRED GET OUT" are pretty much zero given what you've said about your current situation. Cicero fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Mar 11, 2013 |
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Mar 11, 2013 04:22
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CCrew posted:So I'm at a bit of an awkward state. I've been working with the same company for 3 years now while I finish my CS degree (I was only two semesters in when hired). I started as an intern doing every boring job they could find. After proving myself with a few projects, my responsibilities grew and eventually I was promoted to a part time programming position. About a year ago, the only other developer at our location left. We're an engineering company, and for about 8 months I was the sole developer for our test software (.NET) communicating with GPIB to hardware like network analyzers, storing readings in our MSSQL database, and generating a whole variety of calculated reports. I've been working 20-25 hours a week here regularly, and have moved up in pay several times while still holding a part time status. Over the past couple months I've been the only programmer on a project that requires design of a CPLD which is reprogrammed with code multiple times automatically throughout a test, which is actually a large new product line the company has been pushing. (I keep hearing it would be a substantial boost in profits.) So more or less I know I'm valuable. That's super low. I do .Net in Orlando. You should be getting at least $55k/year.
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Mar 11, 2013 04:28
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Just make an excuse about why you need to take the day off from work. Say you have some important midterms coming up so you need to have your schedule changed. Keep in mind also that money shouldn't be the only deciding factor. There's also vacation days, better health benefits (assuming you wouldn't be 100% covered), and longer lunch breaks (assuming your company is strict about how long you can be at lunch).
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Mar 11, 2013 06:22
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Adahn the nameless posted:That's super low. I do .Net in Orlando. You should be getting at least $55k/year. yeah. Wow. I don't know what the cost of living is like there, but I'd expect entry level programmer, with some previous experience (not just course work), is going to command 50k+/start; Unless you are in like Idaho or something.
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Mar 11, 2013 11:18
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Florida: Where $50k/yr is okay for someone with previous experience. 
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Mar 11, 2013 12:06
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Yeah, I suppose that's just going to have to be my plan. Go for interviews as I get closer to graduation so they can't try to head my off by forcing me to accept/reject an offer early. Several people have left the company in my time there for pay reasons, all while our CFO gets his brand new $11k office remodel. Orlando cost of living isn't too high, we're basically just a huge suburb.
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Mar 11, 2013 16:09
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If an employer gave you a range that you'd hear back by, and you don't within that range how, long do you wait to follow up? They said they'd give me an answer regardless of whether I got an offer or not.
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Mar 11, 2013 16:53
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Good Will Hrunting posted:If an employer gave you a range that you'd hear back by, and you don't within that range how, long do you wait to follow up? They said they'd give me an answer regardless of whether I got an offer or not. I'd give them a couple more days than their estimate and then politely inquire about the status of your application. Don't remind them that they said they'd call you and failed to do so, just ask as if nothing were out of the ordinary. vvv Anti-clarification detected. Do you mean you interviewed for one job twice, like a round 1, round 2 thing? Did you interview for two different jobs at two different times, and they failed to give you an answer in both cases? I'm not seeing a scenario where I would change my advice anyway. Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Mar 11, 2013 |
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Mar 11, 2013 17:27
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I probably should have clarified but I interviewed with them at their office twice.
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Mar 11, 2013 17:32
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CCrew posted:Yeah, I suppose that's just going to have to be my plan. Go for interviews as I get closer to graduation so they can't try to head my off by forcing me to accept/reject an offer early. Several people have left the company in my time there for pay reasons, all while our CFO gets his brand new $11k office remodel. Orlando cost of living isn't too high, we're basically just a huge suburb. Go to interviews now, just tell the companies you're interviewing for that you're graduating in <X> of 2013. Edit: If you want to take a break, tell them when you plan on starting.
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Mar 11, 2013 19:29
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The firm that had the awkward you're-welcome-email asked me for references I had an easy time finding people on a personal level who would sing my praises, and as far as my work is concerned that also was't difficult; my internship's boss actually thought I was faster than I'd have rated myself in terms of how fast I made things that worked, fixed bugs (or found out the bug wasn't one) and learned things. I might actually have a shot at this! So, uh, when do I bring up hourly vs salary and how much should I ask for? I'm in the Jacksonville FL, and it would be mostly .NET stuff.
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Mar 12, 2013 00:11
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2banks1swap.avi posted:So, uh, when do I bring up hourly vs salary and how much should I ask for? I'm in the Jacksonville FL, and it would be mostly .NET stuff. As has been mentioned a few times in the thread (is it in the OP? if not, it should be), do not be the first to give a number. Let them make you an offer first, then negotiate it up. The standard guide is http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ , which while snarky in tone is mostly reasonable.
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Mar 12, 2013 01:04
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Heyo, looks like I've got a good chance for getting some contract work as a front end web developer, but they're looking to train up a Java Developer once they find someone who's a good fit for the team. I'm gonna try and get a head start on that and secure the long term job, any suggested resources for anyone who's up til now built things in Python?
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Mar 12, 2013 01:27
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What's tricky to me is that it would not be a full time position. If I'm salaried for part time work and find my hours-per-week creeping up, I'd be in a position to either find a new job or renegotiate; I could just as soon pass it off as an internship since I'm still in school if I did not wait until I had a YOTJ, and it's not like I'd be literally miserable making what a programmer is worth, even full time, spending long hours punching keys. I think it's just jitters since I'm not a grad yet and It's not full time. Then again, if they make me an offer, that means they do want me.
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Mar 12, 2013 01:33
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I did a cold call e-mail to a startup in my city that got a couple million in funding recently. I inquired about an internship and got a reply from them today asking me to come in to chat. They didn't have any specific job postings on their site and are relatively small in terms of number of employees. They're not a fresh out of college startup though. When should I ask them if this is going to be a paid internship? Only if they make an offer? I don't want to waste their time.
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Mar 12, 2013 01:38
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:When should I ask them if this is going to be a paid internship? Only if they make an offer? I don't want to waste their time. Be frank about it and your needs/wants as an employee. Companies want people who are confident in their skills.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:09
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:When should I ask them if this is going to be a paid internship? Only if they make an offer? I don't want to waste their time.
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Mar 12, 2013 03:26
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Plorkyeran posted:Unpaid internships are illegal unless you're providing literally zero value to the company (not even just net zero value after adjusting for the people's time you'll waste), and this is not a field that is so competitive to get into that they happen anyway. Even minimum wage for a first internship with no relevant work experience would be a sign that they're assholes trying to rip you off. If this is true, it's interesting that in the liberal arts fields you are almost always assumed to be providing zero value. I think there are much more specific guidelines though on what can be paid/unpaid?
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Mar 12, 2013 03:54
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baquerd posted:If this is true, it's interesting that in the liberal arts fields you are almost always assumed to be providing zero value. I think there are much more specific guidelines though on what can be paid/unpaid? There are such guidelines under the FLSA. If you are a for-profit organization and hire an intern, the relationship has to meet all six criteria or else you have to pay them at least minimum wage.
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Mar 12, 2013 04:23
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Man I've gotta link the employers in this city to this thread sometime. I'm a contractor, but I peruse jobs every now and then, and I've seen senior dev positions requiring full stack and front end knowledge be listed at 26,000 per year.
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Mar 12, 2013 06:26
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Cartesian_Duelist posted:Man I've gotta link the employers in this city to this thread sometime. I'm a contractor, but I peruse jobs every now and then, and I've seen senior dev positions requiring full stack and front end knowledge be listed at 26,000 per year. Are you in a third world country?
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Mar 12, 2013 06:53
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Cartesian_Duelist posted:Man I've gotta link the employers in this city to this thread sometime. I'm a contractor, but I peruse jobs every now and then, and I've seen senior dev positions requiring full stack and front end knowledge be listed at 26,000 per year. 26k? Bollocks to that. I was earning more then that driving a forklift fresh out of high school. Being a fresh graduate, the junior roles I see are like 10k more then that, I have a hard time imagining any senior developer working for that kind of money.
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Mar 12, 2013 07:54
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Cartesian_Duelist posted:Man I've gotta link the employers in this city to this thread sometime. I'm a contractor, but I peruse jobs every now and then, and I've seen senior dev positions requiring full stack and front end knowledge be listed at 26,000 per year. These are companies that have never had a development department or development staff of any kind. They have no idea what development entails, probably have no idea what they want to do with development (or maybe "we should make a better facebook! A college kid did, it so it can't be that hard!"), and haven't done any research. They probably heard some piece of news or a talking point at a seminar that made them believe they need a developer for whatever reason.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:19
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Hiring folks: How long is the ideal cover letter to you? I feel like I'm way over-thinking some of these and pissing away my time when I could be doing something more valuable like working on my independent projects.
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Mar 12, 2013 19:59
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Internship Related: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/fashion-week-2012-unpaid-internships_n_1274181.htmlGood Will Hrunting posted:Hiring folks: How long is the ideal cover letter to you? I feel like I'm way over-thinking some of these and pissing away my time when I could be doing something more valuable like working on my independent projects. Short. Good Grammar. To the point. Make sure to change your template to use the correct company.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:18
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