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It's not like Drake kills for no reason. People keep coming after him and he defends himself by shooting back. Same with Lara. Although you do get some preemptive strikes, but she is pissed that close friends of hers are dying.
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Mar 12, 2013 19:21
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Spite posted:I agree. And I also think it's very disappointing. Not to mention how the first person Lara kills is a terrible creepy rapist dude who's all touching up on Lara, just to make sure you don't feel at all sympathetic or bad about his death. He is a Bad Guy.
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Mar 12, 2013 19:25
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ImpAtom posted:I am sort of confused at how Lara is painted as the villain when she does literally nothing but try to avoid getting herself and her friends killed. Like there's no point where she isn't trying to rescue someone or get away from people who are trying unambigiously to kill her, except maybe the tombs. This is not a game with moral ambiguity, not even Uncharted-style "Well, Drake's a selfish rear end in a top hat too" style stuff. In but a flash, Lara Croft becomes the hunter; she does not remain the hunted. Where she should show strength, she shows brutality. Where she should show courage, she shows ferocity. And where she should seek to preserve life, she seeks to end it. Her first instinct is to kill, eventually laying to waste an island nation of survivors—prisoners who were once just like her, victims of a cruel fate, but shackled to a deadly master. Lara Croft wages war against demons, not by rising above the atrocities of men, but by becoming one herself. In her wake, a trail of bodies follows, leaving a terrifying message of death for those who would oppose her. On this island is found the Lord of the Flies and she is Lara Croft. Adraeus fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 20:28
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ZeeBoi posted:It's not like Drake kills for no reason. People keep coming after him and he defends himself by shooting back. Because they are an obstacle to get to "The Prize". And are obliterated with a cool one-liner on the lips. quote:Same with Lara. Although you do get some preemptive strikes, but she is pissed that close friends of hers are dying. Well, that's her motive - rescuing her friends from crazed cultists, not plundering some tombs (although that might change in the next game). Without cool one-liners. Maybe some defiant shouts here and there. Adraeus posted:In but a flash, Lara Croft becomes the hunter; she does not remain the hunted. Where she should show strength, she shows brutality. Where she should show courage, she shows ferocity. And where she should seek to preserve life, she seeks to end it. Her first instinct is to kill, eventually laying to waste an island nation of survivors—prisoners who were once just like her, victims of a cruel fate, but shackled to a deadly master. Lara Croft wages war against demons, not by rising above the atrocities of men, but by becoming one herself. In her wake, a trail of bodies follow, leaving a terrifying message of death for those who would oppose her. On this island is found the Lord of the Flies and she is Lara Croft. You might have more of a leg to stand on if there weren't several scenes of Lara trying to get the cultists to work with her escaping and trying to get out of it without killing them (early on at least). Decius fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 20:30
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What if, like, Mario is the real villain, man?
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Mar 12, 2013 20:33
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Adraeus posted:In but a flash, Lara Croft becomes the hunter; she does not remain the hunted. Where she should show strength, she shows brutality. Where she should show courage, she shows ferocity. And where she should seek to preserve life, she seeks to end it. Her first instinct is to kill, eventually laying to waste an island nation of survivors—prisoners who were once just like her, victims of a cruel fate, but shackled to a deadly master. Lara Croft wages war against demons, not by rising above the atrocities of men, but by becoming one herself. In her wake, a trail of bodies follows, leaving a terrifying message of death for those who would oppose her. On this island is found the Lord of the Flies and she is Lara Croft. Uhh, ok... all that still doesn't paint her as a villain considering the lives she is forced to take are those of men who are PURE loving EVIL.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:34
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Decius posted:Because they are an obstacle to get to "The Prize". And are obliterated with a cool one-liner on the lips. You must hate action movies too.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:37
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John McClane in Die Hard is a total monster because yeah he's trying to save people and all but he just brutally murders everyone and experiences no real character development. Like there are these scenes where he's exploring his humanity with Carl Winslow and then in the next sequence he's killing all these dudes.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:37
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teagone posted:Uhh, ok... all that still doesn't paint her as a villain considering the lives she is forced to take are those of men who are PURE loving EVIL. But they're not and that's the point. The game explicitly points this out through journals and her campfire diaries. She's also not "forced" to take any lives. She makes that choice.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:37
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The player makes that choice. Lara doesn't do anything in these sequences. Lara is the same character throughout the game, the player is the soulless killing machine. If you don't want to shoot 400 dudes because you can't stop associating that as part of the plot instead of just being empty gameplay, don't shoot the dudes.blackguy32 posted:The upgrade system in this frustrates me to hell. It just feels like I am bottlenecked since I have tons of salvage but not much else to spend it on. Do you have the end versions of all the weapons? The game opens up purchasable upgrades in stages. Slim Killington fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 20:39
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The upgrade system in this frustrates me to hell. It just feels like I am bottlenecked since I have tons of salvage but not much else to spend it on.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:42
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Slim Killington posted:The player makes that choice. Lara doesn't do anything in these sequences. Lara is the same character throughout the game, the player is the soulless killing machine. If you don't want to shoot 400 dudes because you can't stop associating that as part of the plot instead of just being empty gameplay, don't shoot the dudes. Yes, the game doesn't give you, the player, any other option but to murder everyone on the island, but in the story, Lara Croft, the character, makes that choice.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:42
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Slim Killington posted:The player makes that choice. Lara doesn't do anything in these sequences. Lara is the same character throughout the game, the player is the soulless killing machine. If you don't want to shoot 400 dudes because you can't stop associating that as part of the plot instead of just being empty gameplay, don't shoot the dudes. Yeah, but then the game forces you to kill the dudes if you decide to be some sort of righteous diplomat, because they're scripted to kill you on sight, therefore making you a villain anyways. Right?
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Mar 12, 2013 20:42
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You can't say it gives you no option and then call it a choice. And you do have a choice as the player, don't shoot anyone and die. In your ideal story, since killing people as gameplay can't be dissociated from the plot, the Lara in your story can choose not to and die (your story kinda sucks). Seriously though, shooting a hundred baddies is just gameplay. It has no bearing on the actual plot of the game. You need something to do between cinematics to keep the game interesting, otherwise it's just a movie and she has a body count of like, 3. I can't think of a better gameplay sequence unless you make the game entirely puzzle heavy and take violence out almost all together.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:46
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Adraeus posted:Yes, the game doesn't give you, the player, any other option but to murder everyone on the island, but in the story, Lara Croft, the character, makes that choice. Everyone else makes that choice when they try and murder Lara. That, or she's channeling my rage at the QTEs. Fuuuuuuuucccccccckkkkkkk whoever designed that wolf cave one.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:48
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blackguy32 posted:The upgrade system in this frustrates me to hell. It just feels like I am bottlenecked since I have tons of salvage but not much else to spend it on. How far are you into the game? There are scripted parts where you get a higher tier weapon that allows for more upgrades to spend salvage on, but also finding weapon parts by chance from crates/dead bodies also helps contribute to getting max level weapons to further upgrade.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:48
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Slim Killington posted:John McClane in Die Hard is a total monster because yeah he's trying to save people and all but he just brutally murders everyone and experiences no real character development. Like there are these scenes where he's exploring his humanity with Carl Winslow and then in the next sequence he's killing all these dudes. He's carrying the burden of shooting dudes for Carl Winslow. And he has bloody feet. He's pretty much Jesus. Edit: On a more serious note, I'd like to see a game that makes use of Lara's agility to allow her to avoid combat and/or use nonlethal means of engagement. GhostDog fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 20:49
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Adraeus posted:In but a flash, Lara Croft becomes the hunter; she does not remain the hunted. Where she should show strength, she shows brutality. Where she should show courage, she shows ferocity. And where she should seek to preserve life, she seeks to end it. Her first instinct is to kill, eventually laying to waste an island nation of survivors—prisoners who were once just like her, victims of a cruel fate, but shackled to a deadly master. Lara Croft wages war against demons, not by rising above the atrocities of men, but by becoming one herself. In her wake, a trail of bodies follows, leaving a terrifying message of death for those who would oppose her. On this island is found the Lord of the Flies and she is Lara Croft. What the gently caress is this even saying? You kill the bad mens because they are trying to kill you instead. This is not an inherently evil act.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:54
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MadJackMcJack posted:Everyone else makes that choice when they try and murder Lara. Black Wolf needs food, badly. AlternateAccount posted:What the gently caress is this even saying? It's the ludonarrative dissonance of having more and more realistic characters in a more and more realistic world that are still acting like they're fighting off space invaders in 1983. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 20:58
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AlternateAccount posted:You kill the bad mens because they are trying to kill you instead. This is not an inherently evil act. Read The Lord of the Flies.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:03
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I liked the wolf cave. That whole sequence/chapter creeped the poo poo out of me. The only part of the game I now hate because I repeat-o-failed it is the stupid parachute tree navigation part.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:04
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I quite like Lara Croft, psychopath. There was always a strong element of that (both intentionally and unintentionally) in the previous games. As has been observed, however, probably not intentional...
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Mar 12, 2013 21:07
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Slim Killington posted:You can't say it gives you no option and then call it a choice. And you do have a choice as the player, don't shoot anyone and die. In your ideal story, since killing people as gameplay can't be dissociated from the plot, the Lara in your story can choose not to and die (your story kinda sucks). Funny enough, in the original Tomb Raider, her actual human body count was 4 people total. That and a shitload of animals.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:13
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Slim Killington posted:I liked the wolf cave. That whole sequence/chapter creeped the poo poo out of me. It creeped the poo poo out of me the first time too. After 8 or 9 failures, I was just frustrated.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:21
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The comparisons to Lord of the Flies fall flat under the slightest analysis. The game specifically includes sequences where Lara asks the enemies to stop doing what they're doing or (unless the player chooses otherwise) is willing to discuss things under a cease fire and sequences where you can sneak by enemies without direct confrontation. This isn't a case where Lara never attempts to do anything but kill. She tries to repeatedly. You can argue that it's unreasonable the game is nothing but crazy evil people but it sure as hell tries to portray Lara as someone who'd gladly stop killing if given a chance. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 21:24
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Lara Croft is obviously a psychopath for choosing to kill in a struggle with the man who is trying to murderape her along with a few of his cultist buddies who burn women and killed most of the people who were on the ship for her expedition.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:42
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Look, Lara isn't forced to kill, she just has no other option but probably being raped and dying, so really, it's her fault she's killing all theseopethsignssgukjddakSurrealityCheck posted:I quite like Lara Croft, psychopath. There was always a strong element of that (both intentionally and unintentionally) in the previous games. As has been observed, however, probably not intentional... It was something that developed over the series' history, mostly as Lara became more adept at killing people and things due to control improvements and more action-focused titles. To the later games' credit, they took a fairly unique perspective of actually trying to do something interest with Lara's increased focus on shooting stuff.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:43
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Turtle Dad 420 posted:Lara Croft is obviously a psychopath for choosing to kill in a struggle with the man who is trying to murderape her along with a few of his cultist buddies who burn women and killed most of the people who were on the ship for her expedition. It's so obvious she's a pyscho. Any right minded individual would succumb to murderape and not try to defend themselves or anything. gently caress life and dignity.
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Mar 12, 2013 21:51
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Adraeus posted:But they're not and that's the point. The game explicitly points this out through journals and her campfire diaries. No it really doesn't. They go through great lengths in the diaries and stuff to show that these are all psycho murder people. Sure they are survivors, but they also fight each other to the death in a pit and have constant human sacrifices to a japanese queen. In addition to wanting to rape the female prisoners and killing most people that wash up unless they are worthy to be converted. There's tons of poo poo like the ambient conversation where one guy says he has to "move the female prisoners alone." It's extremely cheap, but the enemies are dehumanized pretty thoroughly. They are really hoping no one makes that connection because it ruins the entire plot and characterization they are going for.
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Mar 12, 2013 22:07
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Is there a reason the words "DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT" flash on the screen in big letters for a few seconds right before the main menu comes up or is it some weird not so subliminal messaging?
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Mar 12, 2013 22:52
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Spite posted:No it really doesn't. They go through great lengths in the diaries and stuff to show that these are all psycho murder people. Super spoiler alert. These are passages from the Confessions of a Solarii documents. Predators or Victims? "[Father Mathias] offered us a choice: salvation or death. Some chose to defy him. And without hesitation, he killed them then and there. Father Mathias didn't seem malicious or angry, just calm and decisive. As I stood there in the sand, wet with the blood of my comrades, I knew I could never refuse him." True Believers or Desperate Survivors? For better or worse, I now follow Father Mathias. If I'm going to be stuck on this island, at least I have the best possible job. He calls me his first Solarii. Mathias might be insane, but he's smart and dangerous. He knows things about this island. I believe he's our only chance of ever getting out of here. Followers or Slaves? "Any who question or resist are immediately killed. And the women... Mathias decides their fate. Most are sacrificed to the dark walkers... but some are chosen for the ritual." Hungry for Power or Yearning for Freedom? "We put up with this insane ceremony. Some brothers are even starting to believe in it. Something clearly controls the storms around this cursed island and it will never let us leave. Father Mathias claims to speak to it... her. This Sun Queen spirit, or whatever it is. I don't know what to believe. I'm just doing what I can to survive." Delusional or Aware? "Mathias claims we're building in honor of the Sun Queen, like some ancient Egyptian monument. But it's obvious what's going on here. Mathias is stalling for time. This massive project is just to keep them distracted. Even with the rituals and storms and rampant killing, it's only a matter of time before they turn against him. And when they do, I'll be ready to take control." Passionate or Broken? "As long as Mathias continues to prove his spiritual connection to the Sun Queen, they will fall in line and believe. Initiation to the brotherhood is brutal. We need to destroy their humanity, so that they in turn can be inhumane. New recruits are thrown into the depths of the caverns and left to starve and fend for themselves for days... sometimes weeks. Those who make it out alive are welcomed with open arms." Merciless or Remorseful? "I still can't explain what kind of power Mathias tapped into, but I don't care anymore. We're never getting off this goddamned island—some days I'm convinced we're all in hell already. God knows with the things we've done... we might as well be."
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Mar 12, 2013 23:10
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You have an odd idea of sympathetic. The vast majority of those are "Welp, I want to survive and I'm okay doing completely abhorrent things in order to do so without care for anyone else." Which is directly contrasted with Lara, y'know, frequently endangering herself to save others.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:15
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Pretty sure she'd be dead if she didn't shoot every single dude attacking her
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Mar 12, 2013 23:16
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What is Lara made out of, anyway. I originally thought some kind of metal like Wolverine but that would still make her look like you left an ADHD child alone in a room with nothing but a gigantic paper clip, so.. Polypropylene?
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Mar 12, 2013 23:18
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gokuesque posted:What is Lara made out of, anyway. I originally thought some kind of metal like Wolverine but that would still make her look like you left an ADHD child alone in a room with nothing but a gigantic paper clip, so.. Polypropylene? I'm fairly sure she's a Highlander.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:19
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Adraeus posted:Super spoiler alert. These are passages from the Confessions of a Solarii documents. Adreaus, other than the campfire scene with Matthias, can you name a single time in the game where, if Lara makes here presence known to the Solarii without attacking them, they will not eventually attempt to kill her?
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Mar 12, 2013 23:26
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Kevyn posted:Is there a reason the words "DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT" flash on the screen in big letters for a few seconds right before the main menu comes up or is it some weird not so subliminal messaging? It's sort of a loading message.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:41
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Reveilled posted:Adreaus, other than the campfire scene with Matthias, can you name a single time in the game where, if Lara makes here presence known to the Solarii without attacking them, they will not eventually attempt to kill her? What have we been talking about? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=413175056 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=413349358 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=413356581
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Mar 12, 2013 23:43
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None of those posts seem to contain what the person asked for. Maybe I missed it, though? Could you post the exact slice you were looking to reference?
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Mar 12, 2013 23:45
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Dan Didio posted:None of those posts seem to contain what the person asked for. Maybe I missed it, though? Could you post the exact slice you were looking to reference? He asked a rhetorical question.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:51
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