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NovemberMike posted:Erikson has a thing for names. Tool has his name change, Anomander Rake has about a dozen variations of his name, Karsa Orlong is called Toblakai for most of a book. He seems to view names as being malleable in that they vary in location and time. Names get distorted and corrupted over time and with translations. As an archaeologist, he's very aware of that, and I assume that's him trying to put that in.
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Mar 12, 2013 19:06
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Zeitgueist posted:Names get distorted and corrupted over time and with translations. As an archaeologist, he's very aware of that, and I assume that's him trying to put that in. That's pretty obvious, yeah, but he goes a bit beyond that with characters like Karsa, Crokus, Sorry, and Whiskeyjack. He seems to make a theme out of names, and how they can have their meanings change. I'm not entirely sure what the point is with half of it but he seems to use it a lot for jokes, like when people assume that the name Cutter means he's a surgeon or how the spirits refer to Apsalar as "Not-Apsalar". It's probably just his sense of humor but you see it often enough to be noticeable.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:22
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Toblakai is a racial term. It is like referring to Aaron as "The Moor". Erikson does do some weird things with names but it's not anything unusual.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:47
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Stew Man Chew posted:Toblakai is a racial term. It is like referring to Aaron as "The Moor". Erikson does do some weird things with names but it's not anything unusual. Right, but Erikson had his characters use that name for a reason, probably to keep you in the dark about the connection between "Toblakai" and "Karsa Orlong". The actual names he used aren't important, it's what he did with the names. You see the same thing with Traveler, Mael and probably some other examples I've forgotten. It's not like with Tolkien, where Gandalf has a dozen names because Tolkien just wanted to sperg out about language, it feels like Erikson enjoys using this as a literary technique.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:28
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NovemberMike posted:Erikson has a thing for names. Tool has his name change, Anomander Rake has about a dozen variations of his name, Karsa Orlong is called Toblakai for most of a book. He seems to view names as being malleable in that they vary in location and time. With characters who are hundreds of thousands of years old (Rake, eg), it seemed to me the idea was to demonstrate how names will degrade or otherwise change given time and changes in culture / different culture, and so on. Beyond that, true names have power in the Malazan universe, so some characters conceal theirs (Fiddler isn't exactly his real one). However, Karsa Orlong is called Toblakai becuse that's what people assume his race to be, and he's the only one around. Honestly, I also don't see anything particularly odd about the plotlines leading to the name changes of the two characters discussed above. Fiddler changes his because he is rejoining the marines to lend some veteran know-how to a collection of raw recruits and doesn't want to be recognized, while Crokus sort of just ends up getting his while following Apsalar around like a puppy. Neither plotline is in any way a diversion from that character's overall arc. e: sort of beaten on the name stuff NovemberMike posted:Right, but Erikson had his characters use that name for a reason, probably to keep you in the dark about the connection between "Toblakai" and "Karsa Orlong". The actual names he used aren't important, it's what he did with the names. You see the same thing with Traveler, Mael and probably some other examples I've forgotten. It's not like with Tolkien, where Gandalf has a dozen names because Tolkien just wanted to sperg out about language, it feels like Erikson enjoys using this as a literary technique. I don't really get it. If the Karsa thing was intended to be heavily misdirectional, Erikson could have used something less logical than his race to use as his name. As it is, it's not really a 'name thing,' since it's not really a different name, and on top of that Karsa has that one dialog where he's basically like, "My friends call me Karsa, everyone else can call me Toblakai" or something to that effect. Mael and Traveler changed their names to hide their identities. Their names weren't changed, they would have simply been identified by everyone otherwise. I guess I don't see anything spergy here. Erikson has a thing with names, sure, but I don't think it manifests in these examples. His 'thing' has more to do with the historical/geographical/cultural/societal connections. IMO. Habibi fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Mar 14, 2013 |
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Mar 14, 2013 06:01
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Habibi posted:
I hate to do this, but Karsa Orlong, Mael and Traveler aren't real. Their reasoning for what they do is inconsequential, the important thing is that Erikson wrote an arc for them where they were known characters but he used simple name changes to misdirect the reader. I'm talking about Erikson here, not the Malazan universe.
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Mar 14, 2013 16:21
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And how is that spergy or A Thing and not just a plot device?
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Mar 15, 2013 09:24
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NovemberMike posted:I hate to do this, but Karsa Orlong, Mael and Traveler aren't real. Their reasoning for what they do is inconsequential, the important thing is that Erikson wrote an arc for them where they were known characters but he used simple name changes to misdirect the reader. I'm talking about Erikson here, not the Malazan universe. It's fine. You prefer to believe in your own inconsequential thoughts rather than the perfectly logical reasons you were provided. Who are we to discourage you?
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Mar 15, 2013 18:55
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I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about. Using an unfamiliar name to describe a character that the reader would otherwise know is misdirection.
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Mar 15, 2013 19:03
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My recollection is that after the Karsa=Toblakai reveal he is never referred to again as Toblakai, which is pretty strong evidence that it was just authorial misdirection. It's not like there was even a reason for Karsa to be called anything else except for this misdirection. At least Fiddler and Traveler ostensibly had some reason. I also don't know why people would be annoyed that Erickson used a narrative device in telling a story. Erickson does this type of stuff all the time in the small scale. I forget which book it was (8th or 9th) but 4 or 5 chapters in a row start with an unnamed male badass doing something for at least a page before you find out which badass it is. Pronoun vaguery and misdirection can be good authorial tricks in a story with so many characters.
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Mar 15, 2013 19:09
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Sir Bruce posted:My recollection is that after the Karsa=Toblakai reveal he is never referred to again as Toblakai, which is pretty strong evidence that it was just authorial misdirection. It's not like there was even a reason for Karsa to be called anything else except for this misdirection. At least Fiddler and Traveler ostensibly had some reason. I also don't know why people would be annoyed that Erickson used a narrative device in telling a story. there's a few instances of karsa chilling in raraku where he's called toblakai by random dudes in house of chains
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Mar 15, 2013 19:18
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Dalmuti posted:there's a few instances of karsa chilling in raraku where he's called toblakai by random dudes in house of chains Ah my memories were fleeting. I'm pretty sure for all the other books he's Karsa all the time though.
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Mar 15, 2013 19:29
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Dalmuti posted:there's a few instances of karsa chilling in raraku where he's called toblakai by random dudes in house of chains Yeah, but every case where that happens is because he's being addressed by people who knew him as Toblakai, as part of the Whirlwind armies. He's never introduced as anything other than Karsa again.
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Mar 15, 2013 20:06
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Sir Bruce posted:At least Fiddler and Traveler ostensibly had some reason. Fiddler's name is revealed in the span of 5 pages. Karsa going back to Karsa is because he's not anymore a prisoner and can speak for himself. But it's also very obvious that Erikson wanted you to read that part of the book realizing the link only at the very end. What I'm wondering is why other people like better straight, dull narrative without revelations. It's one awesome thing when you discover how things are connected when you read the book. It's part of the fun. Sorry or Crokus changing name have zero misdirection involved, since the reader knows upfront.
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Mar 15, 2013 21:39
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I always liked the reveals, for the most part a lot of them can be inferred or guessed ahead of time with careful reading. I didn't pick up on who Shadowthrone was until Deadhouse Gates spelled it out, for example, but I figured Traveler out before his identity was outright stated. I don't think anybody here is complaining about the name changes really. Crokus becoming Cutter might be confusing for the reader but it still makes sense for the story. Most characters who take up new names do so either because their status has changed (ex: Surly changes her name to Lasseen upon becoming Empress) or because they don't want to be recognized (Traveler, Fiddler, Mael) or both (Shadowthrone to an extent though it quickly becomes an open secret) . It's always done in a way that makes sense with the story. In my opinion ICE's books are a lot worse about that kind of stuff.
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Mar 15, 2013 22:19
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Crokus being Cutter would only be confusing if you missed all of the scenes where people go "hey Crokus!" and he goes "NO IT'S CUTTER NOW OKAY?" There's a lot of those.
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Mar 15, 2013 23:00
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Jesus, seriously? I know a guy known by three different names, depending on who knows him from where. People pick up names.
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Mar 15, 2013 23:07
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Yeah, but every case where that happens is because he's being addressed by people who knew him as Toblakai, as part of the Whirlwind armies. He's never introduced as anything other than Karsa again. Also Karsa was kind of on a spiritual journey during that time and it's not unlikely that he simply never told anybody his name, or that they never had the cojones to ask what that crazed giant who hangs out in snake garden was named!
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Mar 16, 2013 00:02
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Lack of explicitness in the telling of a story from a point-of-view is hardly anything new or original. Erikson's naming conventions do feel tacked-on and awkward, though, but that has little to do with the multiple names for certain characters (and Karsa Orlong especially which doesn't even seem like there's much worth arguing about)
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Mar 16, 2013 03:51
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Long story short and in conclusion, I think all but one of us can agree that Erikson used misdirection with Karsa but that it wasn't some spergy name thing. (and to the guy who made the spiritual journey comment, iirc you are basically right, as I seem to recall him doing a 'now I'm no longer just Toblakai' speech after he returned from his jhag horse finding excursions) In other news, man did I forget how tedious the first 2/3 of TtH is. Habibi fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Mar 16, 2013 |
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Mar 16, 2013 08:24
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I knew there was a reason I ended up trailing off from the series and that was part of it. Its a pity because I'm 70% of the way through Reaper's Gale so its next. I think I'll power through it this time and finish the series though considering its taken me about since Christmas or so to get this far
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Mar 16, 2013 19:50
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Scott Bakula posted:I knew there was a reason I ended up trailing off from the series and that was part of it. Its a pity because I'm 70% of the way through Reaper's Gale so its next. I think I'll power through it this time and finish the series though considering its taken me about since Christmas or so to get this far Yeah, that Andii spawn plotline just takes a long time to get anywhere even if they do drop interesting bits of information along the way. And there are only so many pages of Nimander being emo that you can take in sequence before the brain needs a rest.
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Mar 18, 2013 01:56
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Habibi posted:Yeah, that Andii spawn plotline just takes a long time to get anywhere even if they do drop interesting bits of information along the way. And there are only so many pages of Nimander being emo that you can take in sequence before the brain needs a rest.
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Mar 18, 2013 02:52
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Wrapped up House of Chains today. Absolutely loved Karsa's arc. What a cool character. As usual, a question. Who was it that Gamet saw when he was dying? He talked to Grub, and then saw a woman I think, and ran off with her. Already anxious to dig in to Midnight Tides, in any case. E. Oh crap, is Midnight Tides the one that has practically zero characters from the first few books? 
apophenium fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 18, 2013 |
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Mar 18, 2013 03:02
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apophenium posted:E. Oh crap, is Midnight Tides the one that has practically zero characters from the first few books?
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Mar 18, 2013 03:29
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dwarf74 posted:Yep. Revel in it. It's disorienting at first, but it has some of the best characters in the series. And the payoff in a few books is outstanding. Yo realtalk Midnight Tides is the book I look forward to the most whenever I reread the series, followed by Deadhouse Gates
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Mar 18, 2013 09:35
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I can't remember but at the end of Memories of Ice why did Tool turn back into a mortal Imass?
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Mar 18, 2013 20:41
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Scott Bakula posted:I can't remember but at the end of Memories of Ice why did Tool turn back into a mortal Imass? It was a gift from Togg for freeing Toc the Younger according to the wiki (books aren't in front of me and I wouldn't remember anyway).
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Mar 18, 2013 21:32
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ulmont posted:It was a gift from Togg for freeing Toc the Younger according to the wiki (books aren't in front of me and I wouldn't remember anyway). Tool asked Silverfox to release him from the ritual of Tellann. After being beating in a duel by the Seguleh third he was kinda done being the First Sword. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 00:33
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Well I just got through the end of Reapers Gale and its going to be really fun going from Trull dying immediately into Nimander being emo for ages. I wish I remembered Clip offing him from what I did get through before stopping
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Mar 19, 2013 20:34
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Nimander is never "emo" and I still don't know how that got started. Is it that difficult to internally separate his personal thoughts from his outward actions? 'cause Nimander pretty much keeps that poo poo to himself and then does what needs doing.
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Mar 19, 2013 23:44
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Reading Forge of Darkness actually makes me interested to reread those parts of Toll The Hounds. Probably wait for the Kharkanas trilogy to wind up first though.
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Mar 20, 2013 01:30
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Oh Snapple! posted:Nimander is never "emo" and I still don't know how that got started. Is it that difficult to internally separate his personal thoughts from his outward actions? 'cause Nimander pretty much keeps that poo poo to himself and then does what needs doing. His personal thoughts and outword actions may be the same as Rake but the way he comes off in the story is pure sissy. Annoying, he does nothing till the last 9 pages of crippled god. Clip is a useless character that is hard to care about as well. It was fun to read about when Tool and Envy destoyed the poisoned towns, just painful to read about Nimander and crew doing the same.
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Mar 20, 2013 03:06
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I didn't even mind Nimander, the Andii who dragged the book down for me were the old man, the priestess, and Anonmander himself until he actually left the castle and did something.
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Mar 20, 2013 04:30
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savinhill posted:I didn't even mind Nimander, the Andii who dragged the book down for me were the old man, the priestess, and Anonmander himself until he actually left the castle and did something. Huh. I didn't mind Endest Silann one bit, and at least his story had constant interesting flashbacks and, to me, had sustained momentum (plus he runs into Brood and the scene somewhat foreshadows Rake's eventual demise and Brood's breaking of Dragnipur). Nimander, yes, outwardly is not truly emo (though his total lack of intestinal fortitude outside of flashes of rage is annoying), but his internal monologue is a pathetic litany of how he's not good enough to be his father's son. This is by no means an unusual situation in Erikson's world (Toc the Younger, L'oric, even Karsa, just to start), but it is a particularly poorly executed one, IMO. If Nimander's perspective had to be what it was, it could have easily been at the very least condensed. But whatevs.
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Mar 20, 2013 05:38
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apophenium posted:Wrapped up House of Chains today. Absolutely loved Karsa's arc. What a cool character. As usual, a question. Who was it that Gamet saw when he was dying? He talked to Grub, and then saw a woman I think, and ran off with her.
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Mar 20, 2013 05:42
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Habibi posted:I don't recall if there was any hint as to her specific identity, but she was either a Bridgeburner or one of the other dead soldiers who were briefly resurrected when Raraku itself rose up against the Whirlwind during the Adjunct's assault. She (the mystery woman) invited him to ride with them one last time, and he did, and he had a jolly time, and in the morning he was gone. Thanks man. The description of her was specific enough to make me think it was a reference to a certain character.
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Mar 20, 2013 06:29
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I decided to try this out and started out with the first book, Gardens of the Moon or whatever it's called. I'm about 1/4 in if that and I'm really struggling here. I think I know the jist of what's going on. I'm assuming, the woman lady(I'm terrible with remember names at first) usurped her way to being empress and she really doesn't trust magic users. I think she ordered Tattersail and company to attack that flying castle in a way as a suicide mission to get those guys out of her hair. Meanwhile, the whole thing with that mysterious massacre at that one town is probably disgruntled mages messing with the ruling lady. That's what I got out of it so far, but don't really understand much else. There's all this talk of 1st and 2nd armies, and exploits that I am completely clueless about. I had to give it a short break, but I really want to like this series because now that I'm done with Ice and Fire I hate not having something to get into for the long haul. I understand all this is supposed to be dumped on your head, but I keep getting the feeling I should know a lot more than what I've figured out. Will it always be this bad or will it eventually click? I'm just trying to figure out how much being in the dark is normal or if I'm just not an astute enough reader to enjoy this books. They make me feel stupid. 
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Mar 20, 2013 06:38
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BlazinLow305 posted:I decided to try this out and started out with the first book, Gardens of the Moon or whatever it's called. I'm about 1/4 in if that and I'm really struggling here. I think I know the jist of what's going on. I'm assuming, the woman lady(I'm terrible with remember names at first) usurped her way to being empress and she really doesn't trust magic users. I think she ordered Tattersail and company to attack that flying castle in a way as a suicide mission to get those guys out of her hair. Meanwhile, the whole thing with that mysterious massacre at that one town is probably disgruntled mages messing with the ruling lady. That's what I got out of it so far, but don't really understand much else. There's all this talk of 1st and 2nd armies, and exploits that I am completely clueless about. I had to give it a short break, but I really want to like this series because now that I'm done with Ice and Fire I hate not having something to get into for the long haul. I understand all this is supposed to be dumped on your head, but I keep getting the feeling I should know a lot more than what I've figured out. Will it always be this bad or will it eventually click? I'm just trying to figure out how much being in the dark is normal or if I'm just not an astute enough reader to enjoy this books. They make me feel stupid. Gardens of the Moon is loving terrible until it clicks. It was a great ride for me, but I tried reading it multiple times until I got to the point that it actually clicked. At that point, I was completely addicted. I'd say wait until 2/3rds through before giving up on it. Stupid analogy incoming - imagine a game of sudoku, if you've ever played. The concept is, there's a board, 9x9, with various numbers filled in. Not to get into the rules, but you use the numbers that are filled in, along with the rules of the game, to figure out what all the blank squares should be. Every square has a defined value, but until you have the information to fill them in, they are just blank squares to you. Malazan gives you an empty board, and starts filling in the starter squares one at a time. In the same way that a sudoku board with nothing filled in except for a 6 in the center square, Malazan makes very little sense at first, but with every 'square' Erikson fills in, you come a little bit closer to the true state of the board. At some point, he's still filling in squares for you, to give you more information, but you find yourself eliminating possibilities due to the information you've already been given. Don't feel dumb because you can't solve the puzzle with one starter square. Eventually things start falling into place, and you can't stop reading. To get away from my dumb analogy - yes, this is a work of fiction. While keeping that in mind, step away from that fact. It's not Wheel of Time or Mistborn, where the real conflict is just beginning and you get a view of ground zero - the conflicts have been going on for quite a while. An empire with a hold on multiple continents is of course going to have multiple armies. Multiple enemies. Multiple officers. Each army, enemy, and officer have their own backstory, motivations, character flaws, and stregnths. And no, you are not expected to have a hold on what each of them do, who each of them employ, and where each of them base out of. But just like enrolling in the real armed forces, just because there's no way you could know these things, does not mean that these things are not important. However, since it's a work of fiction, not knowing is not going to bite you in the rear end, it's just going to give you a great moment when you put everything together. Just stick with it until Daruhjistan (sp?). It gets a lot easier to digest once you meet the characters there. You'll grow to love the Malaz characters, but the Daru characters are much more accessible. And stop beating yourself up over not being able to solve a puzzle where you aren't able to see the shapes of the pieces yet. Dramatika fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 07:09
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BlazinLow305 posted:I decided to try this out and started out with the first book, Gardens of the Moon or whatever it's called. I'm about 1/4 in if that and I'm really struggling here. I think I know the jist of what's going on. I'm assuming, the woman lady(I'm terrible with remember names at first) usurped her way to being empress and she really doesn't trust magic users. I think she ordered Tattersail and company to attack that flying castle in a way as a suicide mission to get those guys out of her hair. Meanwhile, the whole thing with that mysterious massacre at that one town is probably disgruntled mages messing with the ruling lady. That's what I got out of it so far, but don't really understand much else. There's all this talk of 1st and 2nd armies, and exploits that I am completely clueless about. I had to give it a short break, but I really want to like this series because now that I'm done with Ice and Fire I hate not having something to get into for the long haul. I understand all this is supposed to be dumped on your head, but I keep getting the feeling I should know a lot more than what I've figured out. Will it always be this bad or will it eventually click? I'm just trying to figure out how much being in the dark is normal or if I'm just not an astute enough reader to enjoy this books. They make me feel stupid. You've basically got the gist of it. For what it's worth you'll pick up things in the series by seeing them happen. Don't worry so much if you feel like you're missing something, you'll pick up plenty through conversations and context.
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Mar 20, 2013 07:44
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