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ZigZag posted:Hmm.. here are the 2 most common undead defensive setups both are symmetrical (only matters for the ocd) 1 for mm 2 for league: z is a really weird abbreviation to use for skeletons
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Mar 9, 2013 04:39
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IcePhoenix posted:z is a really weird abbreviation to use for skeletons Luckily the undead team has access to Zombies, the superior linefodder choice.
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Mar 9, 2013 04:41
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uPen posted:Luckily the undead team has access to Zombies, the superior linefodder choice. maybe but why would you have zombies off the line when skeletons are the superior everything else
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Mar 9, 2013 04:45
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Skeletons are up there with the norse thrower, orc goblin and dark elf assasin as the most useless players in the game(skeletons are less useless since a dirty player skeleton is ok on a league team)
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Mar 9, 2013 05:15
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IcePhoenix posted:maybe but why would you have zombies off the line when skeletons are the superior everything else Because then I'd have skeletons on my team when I could have zombies. 
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Mar 9, 2013 06:20
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uPen posted:Because then I'd have skeletons on my team when I could have zombies. Exactly! ZigZag posted:Skeletons are up there with the norse thrower, orc goblin and dark elf assasin as the most useless players in the game(skeletons are less useless since a dirty player skeleton is ok on a league team) Ask Agent about how much of a difference that movement can make
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Mar 9, 2013 06:26
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ZigZag posted:Hmm.. here are the 2 most common undead defensive setups both are symmetrical (only matters for the ocd) 1 for mm 2 for league: Those are two formations, but they are both at best ok. They make very little use out of the teams mobility and lets most teams just run free in the sidelines. Where did you find stats for formations? I'm curious to check out some other teams. IcePhoenix posted:maybe but why would you have zombies off the line when skeletons are the superior everything else You probably want both, the ma5 can make a lot of difference, but you don't want any skeletons on the LoS. cKnoor fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 9, 2013 |
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Mar 9, 2013 10:38
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Orc goblins are not less useful than skeletons on an undead team. They got the same benefit as skeletons and not only are they cheaper than linos, they got defensive skills. This is 1-2 players on the team that are mostly there to assist on blocks.
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Mar 9, 2013 10:53
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^^^ I think they are both 40k ^^^cKnoor posted:You probably want both, the ma5 can make a lot of difference, but you don't want any skeletons on the LoS. Yeah I've started playing with a zombie or two to put them on the line but putting them anywhere else when you can have a player with more movement is just silly. IcePhoenix fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Mar 9, 2013 |
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Mar 9, 2013 11:04
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IcePhoenix posted:^^^ I think they are both 40k ^^^ I go with one zombie for the line and the rest of my fodder is skeletons. I love movement, expecially when you already get 2 move 3 players.
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Mar 9, 2013 11:20
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Skeletons are good for movement, but honestly I wouldn't want too many of them. They just get knocked out of the game way too easily. That extra movement doesn't give you anything when they spend half the game stunned or in the KO box.
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Mar 9, 2013 11:31
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Skeletons are good for movement, but honestly I wouldn't want too many of them. They just get knocked out of the game way too easily. That extra movement doesn't give you anything when they spend half the game stunned or in the KO box. Thick skull helps keep them out of the KO box. In fact, with thick skull, they stay on the pitch with the exact same frequency (both have about a 12% chance to get sidelined when they are knocked down) Since the injury rolls are the same, when they do get sidelined, the Skeletons will get an actual injury 33% more often, but who cares, skeletons and zombies are so cheap that if they do fail regen and get an injury that makes them unplayable (really only -str) then they are easily replaced. So really you are trading 1 MV for a slightly smaller chance of getting an injury.
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Mar 9, 2013 12:29
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IcePhoenix posted:^^^ I think they are both 40k ^^^ Nah, they're from Fantasy. 
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Mar 9, 2013 12:43
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When I play undead I prefer zombie over skeleton. For what I use them for (line fodder, fouls)they just seem to get injured much less.
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Mar 9, 2013 13:49
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cKnoor posted:Those are two formations, but they are both at best ok. They make very little use out of the teams mobility and lets most teams just run free in the sidelines. Where did you find stats for formations? I'm curious to check out some other teams. There isn’t any common stat gathering for formations, you basically have to get together with some other coaches and choose the league and team you want to analyze and then pull the replays in bbm. It’s get a lot easier to do if you know who the top coaches are and just pull theirs or limit it to wins.( so this isn’t a proper statistic and more a general feel in the community backed up by a lot of observations) Outside very specific situations you would never set up different as a good undead coach, trust me on this I know a thing or two about playing undead. The two formations I posted are almost always used by me and the other high ranking undead coaches both in FOL and OCC. In our own goon bowl this formation was also used by both undead coaches (who both have a win % with undead in online play of over 75%) It doesn’t cover the sideline which is fine since you want the opponent to score quickly while bashing in a few CAS. This formation lets you react to both sides and protects your most valuable and softest players the ghouls and wight. It also keeps the threat in your backfield to prevent stalling. There is no way to cover the sides (and no reason unless you are specifically trying to prevent a quick td, in which case something have gone wrong) without exposing your ghouls either in the middle or on in the wide zone. If you set up player in the wide zone they can get back to the other side (except ghouls but if they are exposed they are out of the game anyway). When you keep all your mobility back you can react and contain both passing and cage threats. The weakness of this formation is when the opponent doesn’t do anything and just stays and stalls on his half with an elf screen on the los. In that case you just hunt his exposed players while keeping formation, trusting in your ability to remove players from the field. And no you don’t want any skeletons, having lots of av7 players on a super bashy team is not going to work, it’s hard enough to keep the ghouls out of trouble as it is. Ma 5 doesn’t matter when you are either stunned or off the pitch.
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Mar 9, 2013 13:55
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ZigZag posted:There isn’t any common stat gathering for formations, you basically have to get together with some other coaches and choose the league and team you want to analyze and then pull the replays in bbm. It’s get a lot easier to do if you know who the top coaches are and just pull theirs or limit it to wins.( so this isn’t a proper statistic and more a general feel in the community backed up by a lot of observations) Please don't word stuff like it's based on anything other than your own personal experience. I don't doubt that many Undead coaches use formations like these two but to claim that they are the two most common is faulty at best and just plain wrong at worst. The formations are fine but like I said they don't capitalize on mobility and a good coach using anything other than a slow bashy build would be able to punish a formation like that. ZigZag posted:And no you don’t want any skeletons, having lots of av7 players on a super bashy team is not going to work, it’s hard enough to keep the ghouls out of trouble as it is. Ma 5 doesn’t matter when you are either stunned or off the pitch. Undead are not a super bashy team though, they have 4 bashy players at the start they are the only players with STR access. They are a fast bashy team, with a lot of cheap linemen that you can use to tie up other more expensive players. It's already been pointed out that the skeletons are about as good as the zombies at staying on the pitch. Skeletons are pretty decent for their cost and can in a pinch be used as a scoring threat, you can't do that with zombies. They are not better than zombies, but they are not that much worse either. It really depends on what type of undead team you're running.
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Mar 9, 2013 14:38
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cKnoor posted:Please don't word stuff like it's based on anything other than your own personal experience. I don't doubt that many Undead coaches use formations like these two but to claim that they are the two most common is faulty at best and just plain wrong at worst. The formations are fine but like I said they don't capitalize on mobility and a good coach using anything other than a slow bashy build would be able to punish a formation like that. Sorry about the wording regarding the setup, i play a lot of undead and in any discussion or any replay i've watched i have never seen or heard anybody set up in any other way except for very poor coaches or in very specific circumstances. But yeah its based on personal experience and should have been worded like that. In short to mid length leagues and in mm undead are definitely an extreme bash team, no other team can bring that much mb in a short time. It’s only in the long run (perpetual leagues and high TV mm) that undead gets out bashed by orcs and chaos. Skeletons break armor way more than zombies a stunned ma5 player is obviously better than a KO’ed one but is still a huge problem. And your assumptions are bullshit and it’s the same every time we discuss something you come along with poo poo like this, watch some games by high ranking undead players and you’ll see that fast teams can’t really punish this defense unless they stay on their own half and stall. Usually the will be forced to a quick td. Alternatively try taking an undead team to a big league or try getting a top 10 in one of the mm leagues like fol, auld or nagg. I play against some really good coaches in the OCC and no, punishing this defense is not something you just do, even if you are a league player who’s been around since the Styrofoam board and have a win % of 70. It allows for the quick score while keeping pressure up preventing stalling and the amount of POMB is enough to make own half stalling a problem. I think the reason you are struggling with your undead play is that you are mistaken about how undead plays at different stages of team development. They start out as the by far the bashiest team in the game and can keep that up for a long while. It is only late in the team development that you have to resort to using 4 ghouls and utilizing speed. Of course you still use speed at low TV but you do it from a position of also out strengthen and out bashing (which is why the team is one of the best). Speed and bash are the undead strengths but bash is the most important and the speed helps with that in the sense that you don’t have to move the cage as much and that you can score quick should the 2-1 grind fail. Its only in the late fase that other teams outbash you with lots of guard and mb and it is here that having 4 ma7 players with ag skills turns undead into a hybrid team.
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Mar 9, 2013 15:35
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I gotta say, cKnoor... the reason I even get into playing bb was because of your Chaos-lp, but in this case you're wrong and ZigZag is right. I've seen your undead lp on youtube, and i've seen Zigzag play. Your undead-tactics doesn't hold a candle next to Zigs. For instance the last time I tuned in you put two ghouls in range of a goblin chainsaw on your kick-off. You never never never expose you ghouls... it's the undead equivalant of sitcking your balls out of a moving car. Even if the opponent doesn't have any tackle it's still an unnecessary risk. gently caress all that how ZigZag worded it or what not. That's besides the point, but the fact that you so quickly jump on it and start talking about how Zigzag is saying "stuff like it's based on anything other than your own personal experience", annoys me. You do that poo poo all the time like it's nothing.
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Mar 9, 2013 16:23
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Iamoutis posted:For instance the last time I tuned in you put two ghouls in range of a goblin chainsaw on your kick-off. this is a little nitpicky because he said right after that that he forgot about the chainsaw
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Mar 10, 2013 00:24
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So... for cknoor to realize that he should protect his ghouls it takes a chainsaw. I mean this is how he normally sets up his D. Don't get me wrong I love cKnoor and I've spent more hours than I'd care to admit watching him and Ethan goof around. This doesn't change the fact that he can't set a proper undead kick-off defense.
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Mar 11, 2013 18:54
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So, Chaos Edition is currently 66% off on Steam's Midweek Madness sale. Even those who don't have previous editions can get it for $10, so if anyone was holding off until the price dropped, now's the time to grab it.
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Mar 13, 2013 02:38
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I've just used my discount to gift a friend Chaos edition (I have legendary). Can anyone confirm that we can play against each other? Some googling suggests so but I would like it confirmed before we try to arrange a game.
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Mar 16, 2013 15:27
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fallingdownjoe posted:I've just used my discount to gift a friend Chaos edition (I have legendary). Can anyone confirm that we can play against each other? Some googling suggests so but I would like it confirmed before we try to arrange a game. Yes, just use the player finder and have your teams in the same league. I think you have to be in Auld to challenge players, though you can also use the goon league.
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Mar 16, 2013 15:34
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Brainamp posted:Yes, just use the player finder and have your teams in the same league. I think you have to be in Auld to challenge players, though you can also use the goon league. Excellent, thanks for this.
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Mar 16, 2013 15:42
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Jeez it's like turn 14 - 15 and I've just clawed my way up to 3 - 2 against a Skaven team, when they decide not to lose. "Oh, you've kicked the ball literally into my endzone? Well I'll just pick up the ball, scamper across my half of the pitch and throw it across your entire bothersome team into your endzone into the waiting arms of a rat marked by two zombies. I like that better, it cuts out all the boring gameplay and you can suck down a brown farty draw for your trouble." That was supposed to be the part of the match where I've won and punch your dudes.  e: Btw I have an Ag4 Ghoul with a couple handling skills who's got -1 MA and -1AV from injuries. Should his rear end have been fired the moment his MA was nerfed? Captain Diarrhoea fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 18, 2013 |
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Mar 18, 2013 23:36
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Captain Diarrhoea posted:e: Btw I have an Ag4 Ghoul with a couple handling skills who's got -1 MA and -1AV from injuries. Should his rear end have been fired the moment his MA was nerfed? -MA might be acceptable, -AV is not. +AG is very bloaty and while it's usually worth it you don't want a 150k+ player with halfling armor.
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Mar 19, 2013 00:01
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Generally with a positional like that you let them die on the pitch, or at least keep them until you can afford the replacement.
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Mar 19, 2013 00:04
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The only things that would keep me from firing an AG4 ghoul with -MA -AV. 1. Does he have block? 2. What other skills does he have, and how close is he to leveling. If he's just AG4 with no other skills I'd just fire him and save the headache of having him always be hurt/MNG fake edit- -MA is what really sours me to that ghoul fwiw
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Mar 19, 2013 00:09
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Yeah to be honest I'm not sure at what point the injuries are a deal breaker, since I've mostly been feeling my own way through the game and not read much advice. I'll probably fire him/glorious pitch death and get a new one. Thanks for the replies. This is a pretty vague question but does anyone have any rough suggestions on how they'd skill a Necromantic team? Any skills they'd consider vital for some positions?
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Mar 19, 2013 01:13
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Once the player is too fragile to stay on the pitch, or otherwise has to make more dice rolls or more difficult dice rolls in the normal use of that player, they're gone. So, -MA or -AG is it for ball handlers, and -ST is it for everyone. For me, anyway.
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Mar 19, 2013 01:19
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Necros are such a fun team because of the versatility of their positionals. Werewolves are going to be the star players on your team. They're fast as hell and they can hit hard, given they get block, tackle, Mighty Blow on doubles or whatever. But being super fast and having AG3 means can handle the ball as well as ghouls or wights but they're still much better off punching. If you want to do some serious punching you'll need to either run them together to provide assists to get good 2db blocks in or have some ghouls and wights run with them to supply assists, because odds are the player you're punching is going to be ST3 or higher. Claw is great for taking out high AV guys that your enemy is relying on to stay alive, and frenzy is an amazing tool provided you can leverage it properly.. Ghouls are good utility players and decent ballhandlers, but the fact that they don't get regenerate means they're way more likely to die, so don't be afraid to throw one away and start fresh if need be. Wights are very solid, very fast players that fall somewhere between flesh golems and wights. They can carry the ball too but they get Strength access on singles so you can make them into good murderers/blockers if you're so inclined. Flesh Golems are sturdy and hard to level, but if you can get a doubles skill up you can make an ST4 Blodge Stand Firm player, throw Guard on that guy and he's going to be a huge pain in the neck for bashy teams. Zombies/Skeletons are just dudes, eh whatever. Super pro tip, Stand Firm works both when you get punched, and when somebody gets pushed into you. So, if you want to punch a big guy with high STR, set up the 2db in such a way that you can chainpush the guy into your Stand Firm Flolem. You can then trigger Stand Firm so the guy doesn't move and you can do the second Frenzy block in the same square as the first one (I hope this makes sense) GNU Order fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 02:05
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Here's how I would skill up a serious Necro team: Wolves: Block, Tackle, Dodge, Side Step. On doubles get MB then PO if you manage a second double. With a POMB wolf I would probably take Jump Up instead of Side Step. Wights: MB, Guard, Tackle. On doubles get Dodge Golems: Block, Guard, MB. On doubles get Dodge for maximum assholery. Ghouls: Block, Sure Hands, Side Step. On doubles get Guard. Zombies: Block. Guard if you roll doubles. Get one with Kick and maybe one with Dirty Player.
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Mar 19, 2013 11:02
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That's actually fairly close to how I've been skilling them, I love werewolves nobody is safe.
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Mar 19, 2013 11:50
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Don't be afraid to take wrestle instead of block on a few zombies too. It's a real rear end in a top hat skill that can gently caress over your opponents carefully crafted sequence of 2d blocks. On undead I generally go for one ghoul with wrestle + tackle too, as a really surefire way of getting a ball loose on a 2d blitz. On necro with only 2 ghouls i'd stick to 2x blodge On the AGI4 ghoul thing, that's tough. On the one hand a +AGI ghoul is a massive boon for undead as it gives you really reliable ball handling. +AGI is pretty much the best ghoul skillup. On the other hand -MA and -AV are both pretty nasty injuries; I think i'd give him the sack now since he has two annoying injuries. I had an undead team in a long running FUMBBL league with mostly top-class coaches and over 67 games I had 3x AGI 4 ghouls. One got retired once it had both -AV and a niggle, another had -AV and then got killed, and the third one is still active but has a niggle (won't be sacked with just that). retro sexual fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 13:14
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I do actually have an AG5 Wight with dodge who's reliable with the ball, although he also has mighty blow rather than the injured ghoul's handling skills. I don't know how conventional that is but I've been finding that he makes for a great occasional gently caress you when people do block him for the ball. I'm going to run with my ghoul for now, until death or another injury takes him first. I like the sound of a wrestle/tackle ghoul, I'll probably spec his replacement that way. I'll join the steam group, does anyone feel like a few exhibition matches with my Necro team to give me some pointers? I've only recently stopped playing AI/other lovely friends and an rear end whoopin' seems like the next logical lesson. It's cheeki breeki on steam.
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Mar 19, 2013 13:39
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An AG5 Dodge/MB Wight would make for a great blitzer who can just kind of slip into some tackle zones no problems and gently caress guys up. Not sure if I'd actually use him for ball carrying much.
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Mar 19, 2013 13:48
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retro sexual posted:Don't be afraid to take wrestle instead of block on a few zombies too. It's a real rear end in a top hat skill that can gently caress over your opponents carefully crafted sequence of 2d blocks. Having a Wrestle/Tackle zombie or two is fun, they get used to mark players pretty often and loving over dodgers is great. Most people look at zombies as pure fodder and if you're min-maxing you definitely don't want a bunch of skills on them, but a cheap player with regen is actually a pretty effective base once you get a couple skills.
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Mar 19, 2013 14:37
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Can anyone help me with a question on the campaign mode, albeit it one about Blitz Mode. I'm trying to understand the sponsor contract, specifically the 'ranking' part. What does this measure? Is it the increase in your ranking globally, or your target position? I can't seem to find any details online, and as it's a Blitz Mode thing the Rulebook isn't helping me out much. edit: I'm only asking this because the servers seem to be down so I'm trying out the single player campaign. Are the servers often unreliable, or is this a rare occurence? boatiemathmo fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 23:37
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Would there be any interest in starting up Goon Fumbbl League season 3? Probably only do fresh teams though.
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Mar 21, 2013 06:41
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Just discovered that, if you fail a dodge roll using Break Tackle and use a team reroll, you still get the benefit of Break Tackle. However, for no reason that I can see, if you reroll using the Dodge skill, you don't. 
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Mar 22, 2013 06:41
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