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Great Horny Toads! posted:I don't have a copy of The Hobbit or LOTR kicking around, but, if I remember correctly, Tolkien lets us know that hobbits are little, furry people who love them some comfort and stability before Gandalf comes knocking. We don't know much more, but a state is established before it's upset. That's what I was getting at.
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Mar 21, 2013 09:55
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Runcible Cat posted:Bear in mind that fantasy books from before when fantasy became A Genre do tend to have really slow lead-ins by modern standards - if you read, say, The Worm Ouroboros or The Night Land you get a first chapter of setup about a contemporary guy having Visions or Astrally Projecting To The Planet Mercury and This Is What He Saw which is promptly forgotten as soon as the actual story kicks in. This wouldn't fly for a second these days. The same goes for writers emulating Victorian authors. It can be done, but modern writers still have to quicken the pace. Saying, "I love Dickens, so I'm going to spend 5000 words panning over a foggy harbor," doesn't fly these days either.
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Mar 21, 2013 17:49
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When writing less than 1,500 word pieces, what are some different ways to go about structuring and then editing? For the Thunderdome prompts I basically look at the prompt as soon as it is posted and start thinking about how to structure what I write. Usually within 24 hours I have planned out generally what will happen and then I start writing. The rough draft rarely takes any time at all to have done. I then look at it two or so times a day and make at first large edits and as the week goes by I make smaller edits. For one prompt, even though I actually liked what I had, I tried to just rewrite it from the beginning to break out of any calcified parts I had and also to help me just cut out words that I didn't really need. One week I broke from this process and completely scrapped what I had three days in. I then got sick and had to write something at the last minute and it ended up being absolute poo poo, so I at least know my usual process is better than going from the gut. In general I am finding myself very reluctant to make drastic changes after I have gone through my usual process. I can't decide if this is good or bad and am curious how other people write and at what point do you consider something "finished". Would I maybe be better off to just leave it alone for two days and then go in for bigger edits rather than editing multiple times a day?
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Mar 22, 2013 03:49
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systran posted:When writing less than 1,500 word pieces, what are some different ways to go about structuring and then editing? I've done this lots of different ways for Thunderdome. The first one I wrote about 3 rough drafts, basically from scratch, trying to work everything out, then I edited for a couple days. I've also mulled over the story in my mind for the whole week, then written and edited it closer to the deadline. And I've started downing gin and tonics two hours before the deadline and started mashing out crap, too. These methods generally produce material of the quality expected, respectively. I think if you've got a narrative in mind, it can't hurt to write, rewrite, and edit it intensely. I do like literally rewriting from scratch, since it keeps me from getting caught up by the exact wording I used before. I also tend to write really crappy first drafts, with lots of telling, not showing, just to sort out the narrative beats without trying to WRITE. The hardest part for me is usually coming up with a narrative at all. I am terrible at coming up with an actual story (which is why I'm writing this post instead of my Thunderdome entry, ugh!).
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Mar 22, 2013 05:56
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systran posted:When writing less than 1,500 word pieces, what are some different ways to go about structuring and then editing? I've tried a couple different things; some have worked to various degrees. The one that worked least well was getting the idea for a setup, writing from there until I ran out of wordcount, and then going back to edit and tighten things up. That ended in a plotless mush of confused themes and irrelevant actions. More recently, I've been doing a variant of the snowflake method. Once I've got a situation or character, I write a one-sentence summary that neatly encapsulates a struggle or conflict, generally hinting at the setting and conclusion. I'll revise this a few times until I effectively have a one-sentence summary of a story. This is often a starting point. For example, here's the initial one-sentence summary of my Thunderdome entry for last week: quote:An investigator wraps up a case against a government Chancellor poised to take over after the Dear Leader is assassinated, assisted by the third-in-command, who has secretly set the Chancellor up by drugging him. The investigator discovers this treachery too late. The plot ended up changing as I wrote it, of course, but this provided initial characters, setting, surrounding details, conflict and a twist ending. Next, I write a few short paragraphs of 2-3 sentences. The first paragraph describes the inciting incident, the middle paragraphs describe what the characters do as a result of the inciting incident, and the third paragraph describes the climax/twist/disaster which concludes the action. Here's my original three paragraphs, expanding on the above one-sentence summary: quote:The investigator witnesses the Chancellor playing games on his phone during the funeral. He begins an investigation of his own accord, then is approached by the Security Minister, who reveals the Chancellor has gone to his beach home during the period of official mourning. You'll note that this is substantially different than what was posted, and is a pretty limp plot. Worse, there's inconsistencies, unclear characters and odd details hanging off it. After writing this sort of plot summary, I go back over it and try to shave off as much extraneous stuff as possible. Is there something I mention only once? Then it's probably inconsequential to the plot and I should think about dropping it. Is there an interesting detail later in the story? Then I should mention it earlier to set it up. In the above summary: why is there a dog? Why is the home on the beach? I couldn't answer these questions, so I cut the details. (Much later on, in drafting, I realized I could use gardening as a metaphor, so the dog ended up resurrected as a rose garden.) I also look at how much narrative time needs to pass for something to "feel right" - "starting an investigation" takes a lot of time, an investigation is a whole plot arc to itself, so I cut that bit out in later drafts of the summary. Sometimes, to help out, I write little character bios. Generally, this is what the character's ultimate desire and proximate desires are, along with any interesting details that may inform their character. Once I've got a relatively tight summary, I write the thing, using my notes as a guide. For Coup, I realized halfway through the first draft that it would be far more interesting if the protagonist was actually the murderer, and his obvious Displays Of Loyalty were a ruse to frame someone else. I wrote it to that conclusion, then went back and revised the first half to match it. After the first draft, it's all about rereading and revising. Having a fresh head helps. For Thunderdome, I try to let it sit for a day in between revision sessions and go do other stuff without thinking about the story. Ideas will pop up, and I just jot them down when I can. The main things I look for when revising written drafts are inconsistencies, weird character voices, unresolved plot threads, and irrelevant details. Apply the Chekov's Gun principle: if you mention a detail somewhere, or reveal some aspect of character, it better come back to be relevant later, otherwise remove it immediately or revise it into something relevant. If you have a sentence of whose verbiage you're particularly proud, definitely remove it. Once I'm sick to death of the thing, or Sunday comes, it gets posted.
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Mar 22, 2013 11:25
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Yesterday, I wrote me a rant. When to start a story is a question of time. Story is imitation of a complete action over time. I suppose the author's own definition of the word "action" dictates when a story starts, as does the sort of action. You wouldn't want to start the blooming of a flower at some point after the petals are already parting, but any point between then and the seed being planted could be a beginning. I would think that every story starts somewhere between the birth and death of a single person, in order for there to be one complete action, but what do birth and death mean? Lots of myths, legends, etc., start with a literal birth. However, any interrupted stasis is a birth. Bilbo sits around stuffing pipes and cupcakes in his mouth in Happy Land, Fight Club Dude has his soul-killing work-consume routine, Jake Sully is unconscious for months or years in a comfy bed-pod thing (is there an umbilical-type thing, too?). Then, a knock, a fire, and a landing, respectively, interrupt stasis and introduce them to the outside world. The film school cliche of starting with the alarm clock going off does this, too, but crudely. So, let's say you have a crime story. It starts with a shootout (hero is out-numbered) or car chase (hero is behind). How exciting and "in the action". This situation happens because the criminals have had the upper-hand for a while, and the cops have been looking the other way or struggling to keep up. The problem has been growing for a while, and so has the protagonist's displeasure with it. That's the stasis, business as usual, and the moment the protagonist is loving sick of that poo poo is when the contractions would start in earnest. Start the story when baby needs out. Such is my rant.  fake edit: Does this make sense in other genres/structures? Like I said, I don't get out of Fairyland much, and would like to hear your thoughts.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:11
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Links about plot and conflict: Hugh Howey: Got a cool idea for a story? Now break it. Caro Clarke: What is conflict?
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Mar 24, 2013 00:17
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systran posted:When writing less than 1,500 word pieces, what are some different ways to go about structuring and then editing? I've learned that I can rattle out a piece pretty fast, but I think what matters is a central conflict that is the right size for the story's length. My process is to muse about ways I could address the prompt for a few days, mentally crossing off avenues and exploring new ones, then sit down with a few hours to go and write it. I edit as I go, stripping out needless/bad words and keep an eye on the wordcount to make sure no new characters are introduced past the 1/3 mark and the last third is roughly directed towards denouement. E: ^^^ lots of good stuff in those two. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Mar 24, 2013 |
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Mar 24, 2013 08:39
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Am I allowed to post stories here for critique? I'm asking because I write a bit and not every idea is gold. I'm also a bit embarrassed because I earn money from journalism and don't want to be shat upon for being a dickhead who doesn't know the difference between than and then. Edit: Sorry guys. I guess I'm a twat who can't read. Apologies to all.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:58
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systran posted:When writing less than 1,500 word pieces, what are some different ways to go about structuring and then editing? Write the piece, then eddit
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Mar 26, 2013 18:16
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Roquentin posted:Write the piece, then eddit Is this intentionally funny or should I feel sorry for you?
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Mar 26, 2013 18:22
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Both. It was intentional, and you feel sorry for him for attempting humour.
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Mar 26, 2013 19:11
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Is there an IRC or anything for rambling about writing? I lost any sort of writing "community" years ago and the only person I still talk to about it (my friend who I call my editor because she's helping me edit my story) tends to vanish from the internet for extended periods of time. Gonna be honest here, I'm afraid of goons and I don't think that posting for critique would be good for my motivation. My story, perhaps, but my ego, not so much. Still, having people to talk to would be nice. I'm interested in other people's stories and I like hearing about them, and talking about your own stuff of course always pumps you up, but I don't feel like a post in this thread (or any other, really) that is purely enthusing about my story would be welcome, needed, helpful in any way. Also I've looked for writing groups locally, but google isn't much help. All the info is either out of date or everything that IS up to date is at least a few hours drive away and I don't have a car. Despite pretending at being a writer I don't think I'm getting across what I want to say very well. How do you guys make writing friends?
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Mar 27, 2013 05:33
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CantDecideOnAName posted:Is there an IRC or anything for rambling about writing? I lost any sort of writing "community" years ago and the only person I still talk to about it (my friend who I call my editor because she's helping me edit my story) tends to vanish from the internet for extended periods of time. The details in your post don't make me very optimistic about your writing. This thread moves along pretty fast, and any IRC anyone could give you would probably be full of goons. If you want you can start slow. We have threads for really short pieces, you can post one for your own stories, or if you feel really brave go to the Thunderdome. Why do you think your ego is so fragile dude? Sucking at something is just the first step towards being great at it.
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Mar 27, 2013 05:47
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Mr.Drf posted:The details in your post don't make me very optimistic about your writing. This thread moves along pretty fast, and any IRC anyone could give you would probably be full of goons. If you want you can start slow. We have threads for really short pieces, you can post one for your own stories, or if you feel really brave go to the Thunderdome. Why do you think your ego is so fragile dude? Sucking at something is just the first step towards being great at it. Yeah. I tend to ramble when I'm not sure what the most succinct way is to say what I want to say, like in this case. I'm aware that IRC would be full of goons, but it seems like it might be a bit more casual than a forum post that everyone can see and scrutinize. Not really interested in writing short fiction, it's never really clicked with me. The ego problem boils down to an atrophied thick skin and a lot of self-confidence issues. Also hubris. The main problem is that I want help editing--real, one-on-one help with an understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish by the end of the story-- and since my editor friend is kinda touch-and-go at the moment, it's impossible to find anyone willing to read something that's over 200 pages. I've tried editing by my lonesome but an objective eye towards my own work is not something that comes easily to me.
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Mar 27, 2013 06:08
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I think I speak for everyone when we say that we all just can't wait to sign up to be your personal editor for your long work since your only editor-friend is avoiding you. Surely, an IRC channel to talk about our writing without showing it to anyone is productive.
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Mar 27, 2013 06:18
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CantDecideOnAName posted:Yeah. I tend to ramble when I'm not sure what the most succinct way is to say what I want to say, like in this case. I'm aware that IRC would be full of goons, but it seems like it might be a bit more casual than a forum post that everyone can see and scrutinize. Link me to it and I'll have a look.
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Mar 27, 2013 08:14
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CantDecideOnAName posted:Is there an IRC or anything for rambling about writing? I lost any sort of writing "community" years ago and the only person I still talk to about it (my friend who I call my editor because she's helping me edit my story) tends to vanish from the internet for extended periods of time. I'm assuming you write everything the way you wrote the above post, which is horrible. Cut down on the folksy conversational tics and write for clarity and voice. http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Tools-Essential-Strategies-Writer/dp/0316014990 Buy that book. Read and absorb everything it says. It's incredibly easy to understand, and, based on what I had to fix in your post, will be of great help to you.
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Mar 27, 2013 14:23
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Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:I think I speak for everyone when we say that we all just can't wait to sign up to be your personal editor for your long work since your only editor-friend is avoiding you. Surely, an IRC channel to talk about our writing without showing it to anyone is productive. I'll post the first chapter in the forum. It was too late to do it last night. sebmojo posted:Link me to it and I'll have a look. Thanks! I'm assuming that posting it in the forum will do the same general thing, but I'm willing to send you the entire story via email if you want. It's chopped up into a different document for every chapter to make it easier to edit, so you'll be getting a bunch of smaller documents instead of one large one. Unless you want the first draft. Chillmatic posted:I'm assuming you write everything the way you wrote the above post, which is horrible. Cut down on the folksy conversational tics and write for clarity and voice. Didn't know I wasn't allowed to ramble. I tend to type how I talk. Sorry about that.
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Mar 27, 2013 17:08
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CantDecideOnAName posted:Didn't know I wasn't allowed to ramble. I tend to type how I talk. Sorry about that. Oh don't be such a baby; you either want help or you don't. And when you depend on others to give it to you, you take what you get. I edited your post precisely because it was rambling garbage, and you have a long way to go if that's what your writing looks like.
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Mar 27, 2013 19:46
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Chillmatic posted:Oh don't be such a baby; you either want help or you don't. Fair enough.
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Mar 27, 2013 20:19
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CantDecideOnAName I am refreshing CC fervently waiting for your post.
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Mar 28, 2013 01:02
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What do you guys do when you can't come up with anything good to write? I just got back from a writers group in my area and it was the most unproductive hour of writing I've ever had. I tried envisioning a true moment, coming up with caricatures for people walking by, and writing starting with song lyrics, but all my sentences just came out flat and uninteresting. Does anyone here have a trick they like to use to help them get started?
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Mar 28, 2013 02:31
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Read a book.
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Mar 28, 2013 02:34
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Read a book. Seriously. Read fours hours a day and write four hours a day. Only way you're gonna be a good writer.
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Mar 28, 2013 02:42
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HaitianDivorce posted:Seriously. Read fours hours a day and write four hours a day. Only way you're gonna be a good writer. Right. I'll do my best to follow this advice; I was just taken aback at how low-quality the stuff I came up with was. Do you find that your style mimics the last thing you've read? I can't tell if this is a common thing, or if it's just happening because I haven't really found my voice yet.
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Mar 28, 2013 03:21
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E Depois do Adeus posted:What do you guys do when you can't come up with anything good to write? I just got back from a writers group in my area and it was the most unproductive hour of writing I've ever had. I tried envisioning a true moment, coming up with caricatures for people walking by, and writing starting with song lyrics, but all my sentences just came out flat and uninteresting. Does anyone here have a trick they like to use to help them get started? For me, it helps to have a prompt. Perhaps a weekly prompt. And some kind of incentive, such as shame, in the event that I don't complete the prompt. And maybe a competitive aspect, just to spice it up. Hmmm. We need a thread like that.
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Mar 28, 2013 03:57
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E Depois do Adeus posted:Right. I'll do my best to follow this advice; I was just taken aback at how low-quality the stuff I came up with was. Do you find that your style mimics the last thing you've read? I can't tell if this is a common thing, or if it's just happening because I haven't really found my voice yet. Honestly? I couldn't tell you. I've been told I have a distinctive voice but I don't follow Mr. King's advice enough myself because  "real life gets in the way!" I'm sure as all hell not a master writer so I probably shouldn't be giving out advice, honestly. Just head down to the Thunderdome, prepare to get your skull caved in and pick up a good book to read in your off-time.
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Mar 28, 2013 04:50
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Chillmatic posted:I'm assuming you write everything the way you wrote the above post, which is horrible. This is a dumb thing to post. Do you speak like you type? Do you write the same at work as you do on the net? Jesus. Bra, just write more, find a group (online, I suppose) that is focused on critique and less on dumb comments, and participate.
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Mar 28, 2013 05:33
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SaviourX posted:This is a dumb thing to post. Do you speak like you type? Do you write the same at work as you do on the net? Jesus. His comment was legitimate compared to the product, but yours is good too.
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Mar 28, 2013 06:10
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I'm not a good writer but it's troubling that you have no desire to do short fiction. Doing short fiction lets you try out different concepts and allows you to work something to completion in a short amount of time. You don't want to spend four months writing your sprawling epic and then finally show it to someone only to have them say "This is terrible." There was a thread on here (the translation adventures one) where this more or less happened. If you do short fiction you can spend a week or just a few days writing 1200 words, have someone tell you it is terrible and why, then you can write something else that addresses those problems. If you are learning to paint you go to a life drawing class and start out with two-minute gesture drawings using chalk or charcoal.
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Mar 28, 2013 13:20
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systran posted:If you do short fiction you can spend a week or just a few days writing 1200 words Holy poo poo, a week? How about 2 or 3 hours?
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Mar 28, 2013 15:36
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systran posted:I'm not a good writer but it's troubling that you have no desire to do short fiction. Doing short fiction lets you try out different concepts and allows you to work something to completion in a short amount of time. You don't want to spend four months writing your sprawling epic and then finally show it to someone only to have them say "This is terrible." There was a thread on here (the translation adventures one) where this more or less happened. If you do short fiction you can spend a week or just a few days writing 1200 words, have someone tell you it is terrible and why, then you can write something else that addresses those problems. I agree with this completely. I wasn't particularly interested in short fiction either, but then I entered the Thunderdome and saw that it's a really excellent way to be forced to try lots of different things and find out which aspects of your writing are terrible/need work. It also helped me realize that I have no business writing an entire novel until I greatly improve in skill across the board.
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Mar 28, 2013 15:41
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Martello posted:Holy poo poo, a week? How about 2 or 3 hours? I can write something in a few hours but it usually takes me at least a few days to polish it to completion. I also just started writing so hopefully I can get faster.
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Mar 28, 2013 16:44
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systran posted:I can write something in a few hours but it usually takes me at least a few days to polish it to completion. I also just started writing so hopefully I can get faster. Yeah I'm really just being a huge rear end in a top hat because I have this ability to bang out a coherent thing in a couple hours and always have. Multi-page papers for my English degree, banged out with no edits, etc. I know a lot of other people don't have that, it's just a personal thing.
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Mar 28, 2013 16:47
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It's not that I have no desire to, I suppose, so much as it that I'm very bad at containing the setting to just the story. Maybe I should do nothing but thunderdome from now on. God knows I'm not a good enough writer to do anything else.
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Mar 28, 2013 17:08
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If you're bad at writing short, self-contained stories, something like Thunderdome is exactly how you'll get good at it.
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Mar 28, 2013 17:09
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If you're bad at something that is the best reason to do it.
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Mar 28, 2013 17:09
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Does anyone here ever have to deal with "writing anxiety"? I recently started breaking out of a very long, very brutal depression, and one thing my therapist suggested was to get back to writing after having been mentally "lost" for so long. I can see characters and places, emotions and themes, everything swimming vaguely around my head, and feel like I have to somehow get them down on the page. When I'm at the laptop or a notebook, though, my mind clouds up and the images and feelings just stop. I feel stress, anxiety, "What if this isn't right?"-type thoughts welling up. I have lists, books, and websites of prompts, a "stuff file" of pieces of description, dialogue, etc. I saw or thought of somewhere and really liked, but rather than helping me get started, I get overwhelmed and can't figure out where to begin. I'm basically left with short passages/quotes and random, fleeting thoughts that never seem to congeal into an actual story. Is there a better way to organize my thoughts or process, or to push past the anxiety?
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Mar 28, 2013 18:12
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Write. Just write, and then when you're done, write some more. Join Thunderdome.
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Mar 28, 2013 18:15
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