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I can well understand that they'd release the Avellone news as soon as it was a thing. They still need time for the news sites to pick up on it, and for people to make up their minds and/or sit on the fence until they deem the stretch goal reachable. Would be a shame to hold your trumph card too long for it to matter.
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Mar 22, 2013 12:02
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Megazver posted:It's because they have Gene Wolfe, Jack Vance and China Mieville at 4 mil. And exhumed Tolkien.
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Mar 22, 2013 12:15
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Exercu posted:And exhumed Tolkien. "A new character written entirely by JRR Tolkien! By which I mean we propped up his skeleton and moved his arm to write the story for him."
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Mar 22, 2013 12:18
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I'm genuinely surprised, I had seen more than a couple of times the sentiment that 'sorry he's totes busy with Project Eternity and stuff and can't do more things' but I am happy that he is in because a. PS:T was allegedly his baby so perhaps his involvement will mean a lot of the things that I like about PS:T will be in this; and b. Having him as a stretch goal means they will get more money.
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Mar 22, 2013 12:20
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Quarex posted:Seriously awesome news. I figured there was a chance he was going to end up being a stretch goal ... until I saw the video he made to support the Kickstarter. I figured that was his way of saying "no seriously I am not going to be involved BUT IT WILL BE GREAT" That was the idea at that point. Brian kept going at it but I think at that point we thought the possibility was dead. But they kept talking about it and he found a way to make it work with PE and his obligations to Obsidian and still contribute in a significant manner. It's pretty exciting! Darkhold posted:The overall stories he writes are compelling and fun romps. I can see him writing a really fun subquest. He just falls into the trap of making his hero the biggest badass that ever strode upon the earth. That seems to be the most commonly cited criticism. He's not really involved with the writing of the "hero" for this game tho', so...
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Mar 22, 2013 12:22
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Ok, so I'm still a little skeptical since non of these Kickstartered games have actually been released yet but the news the Chris may get on board has me donating to this one too. Here's hoping that it (and Project Eternity) are good...
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Mar 22, 2013 12:24
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Brother None posted:That was the idea at that point. Brian kept going at it but I think at that point we thought the possibility was dead. But they kept talking about it and he found a way to make it work with PE and his obligations to Obsidian and still contribute in a significant manner. It's pretty exciting! This is pretty much gold! Awesome news Brother None. 
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Mar 22, 2013 12:25
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Brother None posted:That seems to be the most commonly cited criticism. He's not really involved with the writing of the "hero" for this game tho', so... Don't let him anywhere near the romance.
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Mar 22, 2013 12:48
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I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about game writers, so none of the writers/authors added have really made an impact on me, but if everyone is happy about them then so am I.
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Mar 22, 2013 12:52
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Brother None posted:That seems to be the most commonly cited criticism. He's not really involved with the writing of the "hero" for this game tho', so...
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Mar 22, 2013 13:05
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Well that was inevitable. I hope Chris won't overwork himself too much this time. 
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Mar 22, 2013 13:21
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Brown Moses posted:$3.5 million = Chris Avellone Updated my
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Mar 22, 2013 14:03
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Haha. They got Avellone? That should give the pledge count a good kick.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:13
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Avelone? That's kind of weird seeing how he does NOT like Planescape:Torment. From what I gathered from a recent interview he really went on this kick that games are supposed to be written like movies - "show don't tell". And PS:T was written like a book "tell don't show" - and apparently he is convinced now that is not the correct way to write for games.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:31
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White Phosphorus posted:Avelone? That's kind of weird seeing how he does NOT like Planescape:Torment. From what I gathered from a recent interview he really went on this kick that games are supposed to be written like movies - "show don't tell". And PS:T was written like a book "tell don't show" - and apparently he is convinced now that is not the correct way to write for games.  Are you by any chance an RPG Codex poster?
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Mar 22, 2013 14:58
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HAHA. Not to be too cynical, but I had a strong ~suspicion~ that about half-way through the kickstarter Chris Avellone's schedule would suddenly have a Torment shaped opening. 
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Mar 22, 2013 15:04
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Fintilgin posted:HAHA. Not to be too cynical, but I had a strong ~suspicion~ that about half-way through the kickstarter Chris Avellone's schedule would suddenly have a Torment shaped opening. Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of this. Not going to keep hammering on the point, I promise, but until a few days back we weren't completely sure it could happen. When the Kickstarter started it looked like almost a sure thing that it could not happen. Still, everyone thinking it was all pre-planned makes us look like master strategists, so I can't complain!
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Mar 22, 2013 15:13
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They also said that they will be talking about graphics next week. Calling it now, 4 million stretch goal is gonna be hand painted 2d graphics!
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Mar 22, 2013 15:15
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Zilkin posted:They also said that they will be talking about graphics next week. Calling it now, 4 million stretch goal is gonna be hand painted 2d graphics! I'd be fine with that. 
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Mar 22, 2013 15:17
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White Phosphorus posted:Avelone? That's kind of weird seeing how he does NOT like Planescape:Torment. From what I gathered from a recent interview he really went on this kick that games are supposed to be written like movies - "show don't tell". And PS:T was written like a book "tell don't show" - and apparently he is convinced now that is not the correct way to write for games. Chris Avellone also doesn't like voice acting and cutscenes, so I think Torment will be a good fit for him. The "show don't tell" thing probably refers to revealing things through other means than expository dialogue- there are several things in KOTOR2, Alpha Protocol and the New Vegas DLCs that are inferred rather than stated outright. It's kind of a shame that Avellone's going to be a stretch goal, if I'm honest, because after I heard that Obsidian signed a contract in December I was hoping he would be heading that up. Still, apart from that it's a very pleasing development.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:24
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2house2fly posted:It's kind of a shame that Avellone's going to be a stretch goal, if I'm honest, because after I heard that Obsidian signed a contract in December I was hoping he would be heading that up. Still, apart from that it's a very pleasing development. Maybe he still is. It dosen't sound like he will be doing a HUGE amount of work on Torment. One NPC and high level overview and plotting. Sounds like less involvement then he had on Wasteland, and that sounds like it was a couple days a week for a few months.
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Mar 22, 2013 16:08
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White Phosphorus posted:Avelone? That's kind of weird seeing how he does NOT like Planescape:Torment. From what I gathered from a recent interview he really went on this kick that games are supposed to be written like movies - "show don't tell". And PS:T was written like a book "tell don't show" - and apparently he is convinced now that is not the correct way to write for games.
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Mar 22, 2013 17:00
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Since it's clear he'll only be involved in a limited capacity it doesn't sound like anyone was being dishonest at the outset. It's great that he'll at least leave a small touch on Torment's successor.Megazver posted:
Codexians typically worship Avellone, so probably no.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:17
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I guess I hereby recant my cynicism on the previous page to say how awesome this new stretch goal is! I am definitely more interested in this than another new area. Also, it warms my cockles and all -- Avellone getting to work on his darling again just makes me happy inside.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:29
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Updated my pledge by +30
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Mar 22, 2013 18:43
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2house2fly posted:Chris Avellone also doesn't like voice acting and cutscenes, so I think Torment will be a good fit for him. The "show don't tell" thing probably refers to revealing things through other means than expository dialogue- there are several things in KOTOR2, Alpha Protocol and the New Vegas DLCs that are inferred rather than stated outright. That, plus isn't the game-writing mantra supposed to be "do, don't show"? Player agency, reactivity, ~my immersion~ and all that.
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Mar 22, 2013 19:35
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Can't wait for this. I'm going for the $250 tier because anything higher than that requires you to do stuff. Or is there a way to donate more but still get a lower tier?
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Mar 22, 2013 20:44
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Megazver posted:
Flagrant Abuse posted:Which is, of course, why he wrote KotOR II as PST in space. The gently caress are you on about? Hey don't shoot the messenger. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/182612/from_torment_to_eternity_chris_.php?page=3 CA: I think that people [in the industry] are appreciating scriptwriting talents more, especially as games become more voice-acted and cinematic. I [think that for] anyone pursuing narrative design, scriptwriting is the best way to hone your craft, because it's a lot of what you're going to be doing. It teaches you all the brevity; using the environment to communicate a situation, as opposed to just the flat-line vomit of text, like Torment had. Which we had to do at the time, but that's more of a novelistic approach to writing, which isn't necessarily the best fit for games. Also I think comic book writing lends itself to training you to write dialogue for games, just because you have to think so visually about what's happening in the environment. I really enjoy writing comics. For Star Wars [Knights of the Old Republic II], for example, I found myself thinking about the process a lot differently. About how the shot was framed, what was being shown, and how that reinforced what the characters were saying and [their interactions].
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Mar 22, 2013 20:46
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White Phosphorus posted:Hey don't shoot the messenger. Oh jesus, that doesn't bode well
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Mar 22, 2013 20:48
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This game will be the anti-mass effect and will begin a new era of RPGs that are actually good and care about stories. I can't wait.
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Mar 22, 2013 20:51
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Jewel Repetition posted:Oh jesus, that doesn't bode well How doesn't it? He's talking about how if you have a lot more tools to convey story, tone, and nuance than just text, it's good to use those tools. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I love PS:T as much as anyone, but the wall-of-text effect was driven by the inability of the technology to meaningfully participate beyond a certain atmospheric sense. We never see Dak'kon's facial expressions, or Annah's body language. Those things had to be spelled out for us in text. Now they can be stuff shown to us directly.
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Mar 22, 2013 20:55
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Jewel Repetition posted:Can't wait for this. I'm going for the $250 tier because anything higher than that requires you to do stuff. Or is there a way to donate more but still get a lower tier? You can donate whatever amount you like and then pick any tier up to the amount of money you donated, yes. You can then also use the excess money on add-ons (like poster, T-shirt, or digital add-ons like extra copies of the game to give away) if you like. Also it's not really a "requirement". If you like some of the goodies higher-up but not the in-game stuff, you can just go "no thanks" on the in-game content, we won't mind, heh.
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Mar 22, 2013 20:56
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It's like you have to use your imagination instead of having Miranda's boobs or EDI sex bot do sexy poses to explain things. Reading is fun! Read a book!
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Mar 22, 2013 20:57
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White Phosphorus posted:Hey don't shoot the messenger. Um, that doesn't mean he doesn't like Planescape. Just thinks that due to the limitations of the medium at the time there were elements they had to convey with text rather than through visuals and the environment, which actually I think IS a better way to convey them. A LOT of the writing in planescape was descriptions of the environment and characters. Brevity is important. The ability to convey the same idea with the same impact but with less words is extremely difficult, but essential for high quality writing.
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Mar 22, 2013 20:57
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To elaborate: the problem with a "show don't tell" mindset in a video game is that you can't feasibly show everything. In PS:T you got descriptions of almost every NPC's mannerisms, what was unique/strange about their appearance, and specific actions they did during conversation. If you wanted to replace all that you'd have a herculean task for animations and modelling. On top of that, you can't directly show how something feels, tastes, or smells. PS:T had vivid descriptions of Sigil's odors, how the weird injuries felt that Nameless sustained, and even the things he ate. In fact, based on how it described rat meat I went to Vietnam just to try some. It wasn't nearly as good as I was expecting. palecur posted:How doesn't it? He's talking about how if you have a lot more tools to convey story, tone, and nuance than just text, it's good to use those tools. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I love PS:T as much as anyone, but the wall-of-text effect was driven by the inability of the technology to meaningfully participate beyond a certain atmospheric sense. We never see Dak'kon's facial expressions, or Annah's body language. Those things had to be spelled out for us in text. Now they can be stuff shown to us directly. If you CAN show something, then I have no problem with it. Necroneocon posted:It's like you have to use your imagination instead of having Miranda's boobs or EDI sex bot do sexy poses to explain things. Yeah, now I'm just imagining the camera fixated on Fall-from-Grace's butt, and everyone shifting uncomfortably, looking around aimlessly, and crossing/uncrossing their arms for no reason when they talk. Jewel Repetition fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 21:02
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palecur posted:We never see Dak'kon's facial expressions, or Annah's body language. Those things had to be spelled out for us in text. Now they can be stuff shown to us directly.
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Mar 22, 2013 22:59
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Jewel Repetition posted:To elaborate: the problem with a "show don't tell" mindset in a video game is that you can't feasibly show everything. In PS:T you got descriptions of almost every NPC's mannerisms, what was unique/strange about their appearance, and specific actions they did during conversation. If you wanted to replace all that you'd have a herculean task for animations and modelling. "Show, don't tell" as a literary idea isn't about literally showing things as opposed to describing them. It's about allowing the reader/viewer/player take it's own conclusions about the actions in the book/film/game, instead of relying on exposition or a huge summary of what, for example, a character was thinking or what was the point of a scene. Describing a character's mannerisms and allowing the player to realize that he seems nervous instead of flat out saying "this character seems nervous" is a perfectly fine example of show don't tell. Games as a medium have no more problems using show don't tell than any film or book.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:19
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Snicker-Snack posted:"Show, don't tell" as a literary idea isn't about literally showing things as opposed to describing them. It's about allowing the reader/viewer/player take it's own conclusions about the actions in the book/film/game, instead of relying on exposition or a huge summary of what, for example, a character was thinking or what was the point of a scene. Describing a character's mannerisms and allowing the player to realize that he seems nervous instead of flat out saying "this character seems nervous" is a perfectly fine example of show don't tell. edit: just gonna leave this here: http://www.saber-scorpion.com/lego/dandd_torment.php
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Mar 22, 2013 23:23
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Snicker-Snack posted:"Show, don't tell" as a literary idea isn't about literally showing things as opposed to describing them. It's about allowing the reader/viewer/player take it's own conclusions about the actions in the book/film/game, instead of relying on exposition or a huge summary of what, for example, a character was thinking or what was the point of a scene. Describing a character's mannerisms and allowing the player to realize that he seems nervous instead of flat out saying "this character seems nervous" is a perfectly fine example of show don't tell. That's what "show don't tell" means in a general literary sense. But the way Chris Avellone was using it, he specifically meant using visuals to convey something vs. using text. Snicker-Snack posted:Games as a medium have no more problems using show don't tell than any film or book. True, but again, Avellone is talking about seeing and hearing compared to reading. And it's much, much harder to put even a simple conversation into a video game than it is into a movie, unless you mocap the voice actors' faces a la LA Noire. It's also easier to have a lot of bystanders and minor characters in movies, because extras are cheaper than making that many models. Compounding all of this is that games are usually at least three times longer.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:22
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Brown Moses posted:$3.5 million = Chris Avellone I have never used this image. I've always thought it was kinda stupid and I couldn't imagine ever actually feeling this way but... 
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Mar 23, 2013 01:40
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