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I found it more compelling. For one, Madara had a better and grander goal in the first place. His friendship with Hashirama was better because they shared a dream, spent a lot more time together (without the unhealthy superiority complex Sasuke had over Naruto) and spent time building towards that dream when they were children. The biggest problem with Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is that so much weight is put on it but really there isn't that much to it in the end. Even before this flashback, I'm sure I wasn't the only one that thought "Wow, Naruto sure places a lot of emphasis on Sasuke as HIS BEST FRIEND". You might say "oh Sasuke saved Naruto's life and vice versa" but historically, fire-forged friendships borne in times of war tend to weaken and even be let go when the intense events that brought it about in the first place are left in the past.
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Mar 27, 2013 18:03
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ChronoReverse posted:I found it more compelling. I didn't say whose bond was stronger. And between Naruto and Sasuke it's always been one-sided. Sasuke grew to repect Naruto, but never really viewed him as a friend. Naruto views Sasuke as a friend because he represented what Naruto wanted to be as kid, and while working together (the worst thing Kishimoto did was rushing the Chunin exam after Zabuza instead of having at least one other mission to link Team 7 as a closer group. ) So their relationship is nothing like Madara's and the First's. Madara had people close to him die, but it was a war and poo poo happens. Sasuke literally had his hero the person he looked up to the most kill off all of his friends and family. Sold his soul to Oro to get the power nessecary to fight him And then find out that it was all planned by Konoha and he killed the only person that cared about him. Madara has way less of a reason to be angry right now. Madara's problems could be solved via politics, if he just accepted the title of Kage he could mend relations. But nope time to genjutsu the mooooon
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Mar 27, 2013 18:32
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And all I'm saying is because Madara and Hashirama had a stronger friendship, their story is more compelling. Madara went nuts in a big way but his dream and trauma was bigger in the first place. Sasuke, well at least his revenge is actually kinda small in comparison. I'm not going to go into how silly the turnaround is for either though because both of them come off as trite.
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Mar 27, 2013 18:34
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ChronoReverse posted:I found it more compelling. Exactly, we only saw Naruto and Sasuke bonding because a common enemy and even then it seemed like a pretty short time to forge a really strong bond. At this point Sasule has passed more time showing how much of a prick is and Naruto keeps yearning for him like a battered wife. It is true that we've seen a lot less of Hashirama and Madara friendship but unlike Naruto's and Sasuke's it actually felt like a true friendship and no something that's happening because the plot demands. They laugh, kid and have fun together for one.
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Mar 27, 2013 18:35
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ChronoReverse posted:And all I'm saying is because Madara and Hashirama had a stronger friendship, their story is more compelling. Ok, I can accept that line of reasoning. How is Madara's trauma bigger again? Madara at least grew in in a time of war. Sasuke grew up in a time of relative Peace. He should be well acclimated with death.
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Mar 27, 2013 18:41
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Even growing up in war doesn't make you insensitive to those close to you dying. However, in this case, while Sasuke treasured his brother and family but Itachi killed them all and the clan, Madara SWORE to do anything in his power to protect his brother but instead, Izuna was killed by Tobirama, the very brother of the one who had been his closest friend, Hashirama. And this Tobirama basically represents all the prejudice against the Uchiha and has the greatest chance of becoming the 2nd Hokage. We're seeing this through Hashirama's eyes but can you imagine how much worse Tobirama probably comes off through the eyes of Madara?
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Mar 27, 2013 18:51
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The thing that makes it really ridiculous is that its very explicit that the reason Madara can't be Hokage is because he's personally a loving dick and everyone hates him, but Madara instead ascribes one guy (Tobirama)'s mistrust of the entire family to mean his whole family is hosed and he has to run off and whine again. Brain problems, indeed.
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Mar 27, 2013 19:42
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Angry Grimace posted:The thing that makes it really ridiculous is that its very explicit that the reason Madara can't be Hokage is because he's personally a loving dick and everyone hates him, but Madara instead ascribes one guy (Tobirama)'s mistrust of the entire family to mean his whole family is hosed and he has to run off and whine again. Brain problems, indeed. If the guy who hates your family and thinks they should be oppressed will become the next village leader that kind of gives some credence to Madara's concerns. Still a huge dick though. A hilarious one.
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Mar 27, 2013 20:07
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But Madara is right. They eventually did slaughter his people like dogs.
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Mar 27, 2013 20:10
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After they had collectively decided to revolt first, proving Tobirama right as well. On the other hand, it was Tobirama's policies that made them that way so it's turtles all the way down
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Mar 27, 2013 20:11
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But didn't Obito kill off the Uchiha with Itachi? What would Madara think about that if he knew?
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Mar 27, 2013 21:25
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Bad Moon posted:If the guy who hates your family and thinks they should be oppressed will become the next village leader that kind of gives some credence to Madara's concerns. Still a huge dick though. A hilarious one. Except none of that came to pass and it was all unfounded until the clan actually did something deserving of a pre-emptive strike. Madara is just repeatedly being unreasonable.
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Mar 27, 2013 21:56
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Stoph posted:But didn't Obito kill off the Uchiha with Itachi? What would Madara think about that if he knew? I doubt he would care, after all they plan on creating the perfect dream world for everyone. As Obito has said, it doesn't matter what happens in reality if you can just make-believe happiness into existence.
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Mar 27, 2013 22:33
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Stoph posted:But didn't Obito kill off the Uchiha with Itachi? What would Madara think about that if he knew? Madara was all but certainly happy with it, if not having it as part of his plan. Can't eye gently caress the world into hypnotic bliss if there's a bunch of people running around who are outside your control with the ability to eye gently caress people out of said illusion.
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Mar 27, 2013 23:04
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Wasn't one of the first things Tobirama did when he became Hokage was make the Anbu specifically to keep an eye on the Uchiha?
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Mar 27, 2013 23:47
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coreycoryecorey posted:Wasn't one of the first things Tobirama did when he became Hokage was make the Anbu specifically to keep an eye on the Uchiha? Not quite, Tobirama made the Uchiha the Military Police responsible for keeping order in the village. While nominally a sign of trust and respect, it mean the movements and activities of the clan were under constant scrutiny and made it easier to keep watch on them. Also, with Hashirama outright asking Tobirama if someone was outside, I'm gonna change my stance from "Tobirama seems to be a sensor" to "Tobirama is definitely a sensor." That darkness genjutsu makes perfect sense for him. Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Mar 28, 2013 |
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Mar 28, 2013 00:01
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Prison Warden posted:Not quite, Tobirama made the Uchiha the Military Police responsible for keeping order in the village. While nominally a sign of trust and respect, it mean the movements and activities of the clan were under constant scrutiny and made it easier to keep watch on them. Also sequestered them into their own segregated grotto.
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Mar 28, 2013 00:03
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Ok. Thanks. I don't know how I got that so wrong.Prison Warden posted:Also, with Hashirama outright asking Tobirama if someone was outside, I'm gonna change my stance from "Tobirama seems to be a sensor" to "Tobirama is definitely a sensor." That darkness genjutsu makes perfect sense for him. I think Tobirama was actually a huge jerk of a ninja. His huge distrust of all the Uchiha, and him always being second fiddle to his brother; I think it makes a lot of sense he would come up with the Edo Tensei. Dick Spacious CPA fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 28, 2013 |
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Mar 28, 2013 00:30
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Also sequestered them into their own segregated grotto. Also I think the grotto used to be a literal prison.
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Mar 28, 2013 01:09
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Yeah gently caress this poo poo I'm rooting for the Uchihas from this point forth 
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Mar 28, 2013 01:28
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Pretty much the best panel: http://i.imgur.com/TIjCRPu.png You can see them as true friends.  That sudden shift in attitude over one chapter is a bit jarring. Maybe an extra chapter showing Madara and Tobirama's relationship would have helped?
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Mar 28, 2013 01:30
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Remember, too, that Danzou inherited Tobirama's mistrust of the Uchiha, and had essentially free reign with Root. No doubt he was conducting operations against the Uchiha long before Itachi and Shisui.
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Mar 28, 2013 01:37
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It seems like Madara's personality became increasingly twisted as his sharingan developed. He was seen as a dick by other Uchihas because he had the most advanced sharingan and as such he was a dick compared to the rest of the clan. Even as an adult he seems to have struggled with his eyehax-induced brain problems, a conflict he eventually lost. He then spent like the next 50 years alone, stewing in his own juices until he achieved his current status as King rear end in a top hat of rear end in a top hat Mountain. By contrast, Sasuke went from being kind of a dick to a ruthless criminal after having a sharingan for less than a year. Heck, for half of that he was in a coma! I don't think you can really blame Sasuke being a shitheel on hereditary brain problems. But really, it is hilarious that the current main villain of the manga is now a more sympathetic character than Sasuke even after he ripped Tsunade in half.
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Mar 28, 2013 01:51
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Well, we haven't seen him being too big of a dick in the flashback so far (Tobirama in a way takes the cake for that). I'm sure there'll be plenty of that later in the flashback.
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Mar 28, 2013 02:08
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Serious Frolicking posted:It seems like Madara's personality became increasingly twisted as his sharingan developed. He was seen as a dick by other Uchihas because he had the most advanced sharingan and as such he was a dick compared to the rest of the clan. Even as an adult he seems to have struggled with his eyehax-induced brain problems, a conflict he eventually lost. He then spent like the next 50 years alone, stewing in his own juices until he achieved his current status as King rear end in a top hat of rear end in a top hat Mountain. To be fair, being forced to watch his parents die over and over again for a couple days would screw anyone up pretty badly. Itachi didn't really think things through.
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Mar 28, 2013 02:11
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Silver2195 posted:To be fair, being forced to watch his parents die over and over again for a couple days would screw anyone up pretty badly. Itachi didn't really think things through. Itachi left him in a coma that no one in Konoha could cure. He might have been in that coma until the day he died if Tsunade hadn't come back. It is really the weakest aspect of Itachi's face turn.
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Mar 28, 2013 02:14
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Were the Uchiha forced into living in their compound? I kind of assumed they segregated themselves by choice, like the Hyuga.
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Mar 28, 2013 03:39
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Tobirama is a hypocrite, I was re reading the chapters of Danzo's fight with Sasuke and in the flahsback he appointed Sarutobi as the Third Hokage exactly like Hashirama wanted to do with Madara.
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Mar 28, 2013 03:53
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Serious Frolicking posted:Itachi left him in a coma that no one in Konoha could cure. He might have been in that coma until the day he died if Tsunade hadn't come back. It is really the weakest aspect of Itachi's face turn. Without Tsunade it probably would have eventually just kicked in his Uchiha genes double time and he would have woken up with a headache and a MS.
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Mar 28, 2013 03:58
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Gyges posted:Without Tsunade it probably would have eventually just kicked in his Uchiha genes double time and he would have woken up with a headache and a MS.
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Mar 28, 2013 04:39
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Serious Frolicking posted:Itachi left him in a coma that no one in Konoha could cure. He might have been in that coma until the day he died if Tsunade hadn't come back. Exactly, because of what he did they were forced to seek out Tsunade who they could then make Hokage and strengthen the village. Itachi was always thinking of the village.
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Mar 28, 2013 05:48
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Serious Frolicking posted:Itachi left him in a coma that no one in Konoha could cure. He might have been in that coma until the day he died if Tsunade hadn't come back. It is really the weakest aspect of Itachi's face turn. If you stack up all the poo poo Itachi pulled it's really hard to believe him being a secret goodguy all along. Even if he did avoid killing some gate guards. Didn't he also push Sasuke to kill Naruto, too? Hell, Sasuke barely avoided doing it. If Itachi hadn't so blatantly hosed with Sasuke's head, he might not have gone off to play with snakes in the forest. "My little brother is genetically slanted to become extremely dangerous and violent when emotionally pressured! Let's make his whole life a stressful hell."
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Mar 28, 2013 05:51
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This is like Naruto running after the first person he's ever hosed and chasing that the rest of his life vs a friendship built on similar goals and purpose. Sauske hasn't really been relevant in a long time. Is it possible to Garfield without Garfield Sasuke out of Naruto?
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Mar 28, 2013 06:05
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Thoren posted:If you stack up all the poo poo Itachi pulled it's really hard to believe him being a secret goodguy all along. Even if he did avoid killing some gate guards. Didn't he also push Sasuke to kill Naruto, too? Hell, Sasuke barely avoided doing it. If Itachi hadn't so blatantly hosed with Sasuke's head, he might not have gone off to play with snakes in the forest. That's how Sasuke interpreted it. When Itachi told him to kill the person he was closest to, he was hoping Sasuke would kill him.
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Mar 28, 2013 06:15
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Geniasis posted:That's how Sasuke interpreted it. When Itachi told him to kill the person he was closest to, he was hoping Sasuke would kill him. That really is like the only loving hint Sasuke has given that he likes Naruto as a friend, and even then, it's more that Naruto was the person in the leaf who he disliked least. Thoren posted:If you stack up all the poo poo Itachi pulled it's really hard to believe him being a secret goodguy all along. Even if he did avoid killing some gate guards. Didn't he also push Sasuke to kill Naruto, too? Hell, Sasuke barely avoided doing it. If Itachi hadn't so blatantly hosed with Sasuke's head, he might not have gone off to play with snakes in the forest. Itachi had to do a bunch of poo poo to keep his cover too. he was Jiraya's spy n the Akatsuki, and it's a lot better for Jiraya to have a man on the inside and a couple innocent people die so Nagato can make a weird Itachi clone thing to fight people, Itachi killed a fuckton of people to protect the village, he's nothing if not utilitarian, but he tried to aid the leaf however he could in his circumstance. Itachi being a secret good guy really is one of those things that I think was definitely planned from the get go. Itachi's main flaw was that he really underestimated how loving bonkers his clan actually is and thus the lengths Sasuke would be willing to go to and overestimated Sasuke's loyalty to the leaf. He thought that Sasuke would hate Itachi for what he did, grow up, kill him and then go and bang some leaf chick to restart the Uchiha family, their crimes would esentially be wiped clean and everything would be hunky dory. His first question to Naruto after he was resurrected was "Why hasn't Sasuke returned to the village?" and I honestly doubt he actually expected him to go missing nin in the first place.
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Mar 28, 2013 06:26
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Prison Warden posted:Itachi was Jiraya's spy n the Akatsuki, When did we find this out?
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Mar 28, 2013 06:34
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So I mean, if everyone in the clan has brain disease that makes their eyes' power correspond to how unstable they are, how come Itachi, the second or third most powerful known member of the clan, is completely sane?
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Mar 28, 2013 07:07
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AshB posted:So I mean, if everyone in the clan has brain disease that makes their eyes' power correspond to how unstable they are, how come Itachi, the second or third most powerful known member of the clan, is completely sane? The author really likes him...
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Mar 28, 2013 07:13
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AshB posted:So I mean, if everyone in the clan has brain disease that makes their eyes' power correspond to how unstable they are, how come Itachi, the second or third most powerful known member of the clan, is completely sane? Itachi isn't really sane. He's just not evil. "Hey Lets show my brother, me killing our parents for 3 straight days". "I really hope Sasuke turns into a well adjusted person after this" 
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Mar 28, 2013 07:14
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Dexo posted:Itachi isn't really sane. This is pretty much it. None of the Uchiha (well, other than Sasuke) are really evil. They just have a really hosed up worldview due to their condition. We need Ninja Therapists, and pronto.
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Mar 28, 2013 07:25
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