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Sion posted:
Come on, there's a huge opportunity for branding here!
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 17:21 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 02:20 |
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devilmouse posted:New plan for making games: Take nascent twitter trends and build for them. In fact... I might ping you when I do the post mortem. It would be hilarious to contrast numbers against hugging sloths.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 17:32 |
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Shalinor posted:In fact... I might ping you when I do the post mortem. It would be hilarious to contrast numbers against hugging sloths. By all means- though I should warn you, we totally slacked on stats for Sloth and only hooked up google analytics, so getting interesting numbers is harder than it would be if we did it For Real.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 18:42 |
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Jan posted:Yes. So, the correct way to get into dev as QA is not: 1) make design suggestions in bugs and try to argue hard for them. 2) work silently as a good QA tester while secretly harboring your desire to be a dev. The correct way to get into dev as QA is: secret step 0) Work at a place that does internal development and where QA and Dev aren't totally isolated from each other 1) be a kick-rear end QA tester 2) use the fact that you are already in the company to network with the people outside work hours. 3) Talk to producers (who you should be working with in your role as QA anyways) about stepping up to do extra work, esp. design grunt work that designers probably would like if you did. 4) keep your eyes and ears open for what the devs are talking about and come up with ways to make their life easier. The lovely part about this way into the industry is that you don't get to do dev right away. The good part is, if you're not taking this way into the industry (for a design position), you probably only get the opportunity to work on crap for your first few titles or you're spending a bunch of unpaid labor building a portfolio that may or may not get you hired at somewhere decent. Also QA builds practical dev experience in a way that nothing else outside of actual dev work will.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 20:39 |
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Azereki posted:Normally I just lurk this thread, but GDC was exceptionally depressing this year. This was my 6th GDC, but I am now also headed into my 3rd year of the design program at DigiPen. While I don't consider myself an awesome designer by any means, I am definitely happy with the (seemingly) crazy amount of progress I've made in the past couple of years. Of course there is plenty about professional game design that I've never been exposed to, but I am constantly trying to figure out how to best bridge that gap. This year, I talked to a few people about what they are looking for in potential designers or what the most realistic approach was for actually getting a shot, here is some of what I found out: Hey dude, First off, way to ask the question in a setting where you'll get some real feedback. Second, I'm a business dude so my context for stuff like moving from QA to Design, or what should go in your portfolio is limited. That being said, there are a couple things I've noticed in your and other's responses to this comment that I can comment on: 1. The industry is extremely insular - This will have context below. 2. The foot in the door mentality works but for different reasons that most people believe. Getting your foot in the door and then immeidately "gunning" for the position you want generally leads your co-workers and direct supervisors to carry around some level of resentment about the fact that you don't really want to do the job you're hired to do. Oftentimes this is subconcious but it is there. Instead, you should look for that entry level job you think you can add a ton of value to, kick rear end at it, and then let your manager(s) or those senior to you in the company advocate for you. Happy to share my personal experience in this regard, but that is how I got into the industry. 3. I've seen multiple references to "Parties" at GDC or other industry events. One comment (again not sure if it was you or someone else) referred to there not being much difference between a "party" and "mixer". Who cares? Refer to point 1, the industry is insular. If the guy that is going to hire you for your next job going to be at the Minecraft party jamming to Skrillex and lighting his hair on fire, you should probably grab some glowsticks and a fire extinguisher and saddle up. If you're young and trying to break into any industry, not just games, you should be finding any way possible to form a connection with the people that work with or for the people you want to get a job with. Again, you don't have to, but the odds that you'll get an back after someone in person at an event is MUCH higher than if you have no personal context for that individual. 4. Apply to jobs, don't just "network". You have to do both. Set a goal for yourself, "I am going to apply to or follow up with X jobs this week". When I was on the job hunt I set this goal at 15, it was aggressive and depressing but it definitely worked. Also important to note, your disappointment is far from over, the single worst part about job searching is the crushing sense of defeat that comes with applying to hundreds of jobs and only hearing back from a few, compounded by the potential you won't get an offer from each one. 5. Practice interviewing with people who have the jobs you want. Start doing this now and don't stop until you have a job. If you don't know any designers/developers, the IGDA is a great place to start. Hope this helps man! If you're in Seattle (not sure if Digipen has schools elsewhere) and ever want to meet up and talk about the industry in general let me know, happy to grab lunch/dinner/drinks whenever. You have to like dogs though, Paddington comes with me everywhere.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 20:46 |
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AmazonTony posted:You have to like dogs though, Paddington comes with me everywhere. But Paddington is a BEAR!!! Edit: vv: Ok, that's a stunning likeness. devilmouse fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Apr 1, 2013 |
# ? Apr 1, 2013 20:49 |
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devilmouse posted:But Paddington is a BEAR!!! He might be part bear... He's also a Master Chief
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 20:55 |
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On the whole getting into the industry bit, you can totally jump into AAA design without going through QA or whatever the gently caress. I would personally strongly argue against getting into QA, because if you are going into QA because you can't hack the jump straight to dev, it means two things: A) You don't have the skills to be on the dev side yet B) You won't have the time to develop those skills because you will be too busy/drained working QA I've seen people make the jump (a lot of production, and some designers), but it takes a long time and I don't think any of the people I've seen make the jump are improved by their time in QA. Our very own Irish Taxi Driver jumped from school to making Call of Duty: http://www.danmerboth.com/index.php everything that he has there that comes before his CoD stuff was done while he was a student. It's a pretty impressive body of work, but you kind of have to be pretty impressive to get into AAA. Which leads me to a corollary to the "network all the time, because your next job will come from a guy you know, not an ad you saw" bit: You need to be really good to get a job in games. You need to be professional, shippable quality to get into games. Networking isn't a shortcut to skills or an alternate route. Additionally, being really fuckin' good at something is a networking tool. Everyone wants to be the guy who knows the guy that can solve your problem. Your network is a bunch of people who you would recommend, and people want to recommend quality people, and will go out of their way to hook you up if you're really good because it reflects well upon them. No amount of networking as a lovely student making stuff that wouldn't get past steam Greenlight is going to pay off. Azereki - you need to post youtube videos of your games on your portfolio so people can actually see what they're like without downloading notavirus.exe from dropbox (which is blocked by a lot of companies). Your screenshots presumably don't do the gameplay justice.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 21:05 |
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Sigma-X posted:On the whole getting into the industry bit, you can totally jump into AAA design without going through QA or whatever the gently caress. I would personally strongly argue against getting into QA, because if you are going into QA because you can't hack the jump straight to dev, it means two things: /agreed totally. My point regarding networking was not meant to be taken as "yo dude, go party your face off an all the bros you meet will get you a sick job", it was "unless you've created the next Hotline Miami, it is going to benefit you greatly if you can string a sentence together and the people who are going to hire you like hanging out with you". Again, totally agree that you need to be awesome at whatever you're trying to do (which I think I covered in point 2), it is hard to objectively dismiss the value of networking though.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 21:10 |
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Sigma-X posted:Our very own Irish Taxi Driver jumped from school to making Call of Duty: Pretty flattering, but I had a lucky 1 in a million shot happen. This is probably crazy ramble y because I've been modifing it for 20 minutes (also probably time I wrote one, since I'm nearing my 2 year anniversary), so if it doesn't make sense in a spot I'm sorry. This Is How I Got Into The Industry / Life Story: I started out making doom maps when I was maybe 8 (1995/6 or so). I'd draw them on my notebooks and take them to my cousin who'd try to translate it into a level. Playing those was pretty mindblowing, I had no idea how games were made before then. Around 2000 I got into model hacking for Half-Life, mashing models together to create new and unoptimized horrors. I started dabbling in level design again. The next 7 years was map after map, for various Half-Life mods / Source mods. Around 2007-ish Fishbus made a pretty awesome level for Team Fortress 2 called 'cp_steel'. I contributed some MSPaint level graphic tweaks (red circle signs for D and E, "spraypainted" (read: mouse + brush style) points onto other signs, the hud icons), and the level got picked up. When Valve decided to do the "Thanks to: X Y and Z for making this map!" thing, my name went on it. If it said what I had contributed, I doubt the rest of this would've happened (Fishbus was hired at Splash Damage because of cp_steel, and hes still there today!). Around early 2010, someone from Treyarch contacted me about a possible temp job for over the summer. She said she had seen my name in TF2 and thought I could do it. I built that portfolio site in a week based on some PHP that I learned through school. I did a phone interview with their lead level builder, did a week long test for them, and they came back a week later and said thanks but no thanks. While I was doing that, I had to formally apply for the job through their website. While doing THAT, I saw Raven Software had a senior level design position open. I applied for it thinking "Theres no way in hell." Month later, I get an email from Raven's design director. He said they're interested based on my portfolio and would like to see a test for an internship. I asked Treyarch if it was okay to send the test to Raven, they okayed it. I did a phone interview and was working at Raven 2 months later. When I got here I tried to integrate into the internship stuff as much as possible. The Raven that I remember had a reputation for hiring out of the mod community, and that went away in the years before I was hired. I made a huge push to my boss to get into the mod communities I frequented to find people that were good and had trouble getting noticed. For example, one of our relatively new artist hires is Rexy from the TF2 community and hes been kicking a lot of rear end here. I try to regularly give struggling LDs advice because I understand how large and imposing the wall is between the industry and the community (if you're reading this and want some feedback, feel free to add me on steam). I try to keep in mind how lucky I was/am. Things That Really Helped Me Get In: -I did optimization on the level test (Portals, clipping). The lead designer at Raven who reviewed it said hes never seen anyone do it, and it was a big factor in me getting hired / displaying I knew what I was talking about. These days I'm getting consulted by the senior LDs about how best to portal stuff. Aasbandit told me to stop bugging him about portalling because I was just using him as a sanity check (still bugging and theory-crafting with him though). No one expects you to do this. Our new batch of interns that I had a hand in hiring, one of them did this and hes turned out to be one of our best and most consistent LDs in terms of content produced. I'm glad hes around to help haze the new group in August. -I was familiar with their products and what they had been working on. Since our design director was relatively new he was interested in hearing my thoughts on stuff Raven had did in the past. I also showed enthusiasm for what they could be working on (didn't know at the time, turned out to be MW3), and familiarity with the brand in general. -My portfolio was robust, easy to browse, and had detailed explanations of what was in it. I tried to do huge writeups on my design philosophy and problems I had encountered so they could see what my workflow was. I included pieces where I worked with others to show what I could do as part of a team (the other half of cp_upland, Mark 'honeymustard' Sinclair, is a designer at Creative Assembly now.). I included varied content to show I could work in multiple settings and under different constraints. I intend to do writeups for Boardwalk and Decomission, but thats a little trickier because it needs to be okayed before I post it, so I haven't gotten around to it. I also want some in-development shots, so thats trickiest. EDIT: Fixing poo poo. I've had a lot of coffee today. Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Apr 2, 2013 |
# ? Apr 1, 2013 22:07 |
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Sigma-X posted:On the whole getting into the industry bit, you can totally jump into AAA design without going through QA or whatever the gently caress. I would personally strongly argue against getting into QA, because if you are going into QA because you can't hack the jump straight to dev, it means two things: Also note that I'm sure each of us has experiences that are colored by where they've worked and what kinds of games they've worked on. A very large percentage - maybe like a third? - of designers I've worked with have come from QA at some point in their careers. I don't know any single avenue that as many designers have come through as that. But I've also worked at RPG places where the set of skills required of a general designer are pretty different than those of most game companies and it's actually really hard to demonstrate your chops in a portfolio. What I found to actually be really useful was working in QA during my college summers. QA is the *perfect* summer job for the game industry IMO unless you're lucky enough to score an internship. Many places hire a shitton of people around the summer time for holiday releases, and I used my summer job experience to get into a production QA position, which is much easier to get into dev from.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 23:07 |
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Friends don't let friends do QA for game developers. If you do QA for say medical software or financial software you'll make easily triple your game QA salary for less actual work. No joke.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 23:16 |
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hieronymus posted:Friends don't let friends do QA for game developers. If your career end goal is QA, this is true, but if you are using QA as the mail room equivalent of a game company, that doesn't really work.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 23:22 |
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Wait, you guys still use an engine that requires portals? That's so cool The last time I saw those was map making for Max Payne... 1, I think it was, though maybe 2 as well. EDIT: I even wrote a portal-based engine back in the late 90's - but soon after, everyone decided "gently caress that, let's use octrees and focus on streaming." Shalinor fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 1, 2013 |
# ? Apr 1, 2013 23:43 |
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hieronymus posted:Friends don't let friends do QA for game developers. Pretty much. I left games for web QA for an ad agency, got a 50% raise, a two title grade bump and half the workload. The contacts I made and networks I built are invaluable for when I try to get back in - but trust me. Don't start in the industry in QA. Just don't.
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# ? Apr 1, 2013 23:51 |
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Shalinor posted:Wait, you guys still use an engine that requires portals? That's so cool Darksiders 2's engine used portals. The game shipped with a pathological case in one of the large dungeons where calculating visibility was actually more costly than just rendering everything and letting depth tests sort it out. Couldn't find a code fix for it, and the LD effort to fix it was too much. Also, I know for a fact Fallout 3 and New Vegas also had portal-like visibility volumes. I didn't mess around with Skyrim modding but I wouldn't be surprised if it had kept them.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 00:14 |
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edit: Nevermind, started as an anecdote and ending up as whining. There is no whining in the Thunderdome!
D1Sergo fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Apr 2, 2013 |
# ? Apr 2, 2013 00:20 |
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Shalinor posted:Wait, you guys still use an engine that requires portals? That's so cool Portals are still pretty widely used for BSP/CSG stuff. Any engine thats based on id tech still uses portals to some degree (Source, CoD). At least until Umbra or something similar catches on. D1Sergo posted:edit: Nevermind, started as an anecdote and ending up as whining. There is no whining in the Thunderdome! I saw what you had before you edited it out. I am also a socially awkward introvert. I am a pretty loud idiot on the internet but in person if I don't know you I won't talk or know what to say. Once I start to get to know people I open up. As lame and bad as it sounds, getting drunk with coworkers at company parties helped a lot and I have a pretty good relationship with a lot of them. Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 2, 2013 |
# ? Apr 2, 2013 00:20 |
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Just to be clear, you guys mean actual portals, right? What Fallout uses (afaik) would be occlusion volumes - which are related to portals, but function in an octree environment. True portals would be used for, for instance, occluding building interiors... but since all Bethesda games have instanced interiors, I wouldn't think that would be the case? (I was planning them for Elium, back in the day, but it was to have non-instanced interiors - ah, naivety, it was so cute) Irish Taxi Driver posted:I am a pretty loud idiot on the internet but in person if I don't know you I won't talk or know what to say. Once I start to get to know people I open up. As lame and bad as it sounds, getting drunk with coworkers at company parties helped a lot and I have a pretty good relationship with a lot of them.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 00:47 |
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Shalinor posted:Seconded. I don't get drunk, per se, but the games industry literally taught me to drink and the social importance thereof. However sad that may sound, I wouldn't have learned that without team drinking outings. I actually think team drinking is pretty crucial, not just to morale, but to general cohesiveness. Some of my best design work has come at the bar down the street, not in the conference room at the office. It has a lot of uses beyond just socializing/venting I think.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 01:12 |
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Iron Leg posted:Some of my best design work has come at the bar down the street, not in the conference room at the office. We call this "Designer Vodka Hour(s)". The other lead and I would go to the bar at like 3 or 4pm, drink heavily while we scribbled things in our notebooks, and then the next day, hope for something useful to be in there. Mostly there wasn't, but sometimes there was!
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 01:16 |
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Irish Taxi Driver posted:Portals are still pretty widely used for BSP/CSG stuff. Any engine thats based on id tech still uses portals to some degree (Source, CoD). Portals are used to calculate Quake 1's potentially visible set.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 01:38 |
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Irish Taxi Driver posted:Socially Awkward Networking I appreciate the comments! I think part of why I feel down about networking is that I'm in Publisher QA 70% of the time and it's hard from that position (since you don't really actually get to MEET any devs). When I worked at Bungie, I got to chat with the Senior Test Lead and play arcade games with artists and designers, it was fantastic. I kind of squandered it through naivety though, but live and learn. D1Sergo fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 2, 2013 |
# ? Apr 2, 2013 01:39 |
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If someone says they don't / can't drink, don't pressure them to actually drink though. If someone doesn't want to go to a bar night because they don't drink, encourage them to come and order something non-alcoholic, and don't make them feel bad for not drinking.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 01:43 |
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Shalinor posted:Just to be clear, you guys mean actual portals, right? Yeah, "true portals" is what I mean. Portalling outdoor environments is fun! I love breaking intern's brains about portalling conventions. "What you can do that " Chainclaw posted:If someone says they don't / can't drink, don't pressure them to actually drink though. If someone doesn't want to go to a bar night because they don't drink, encourage them to come and order something non-alcoholic, and don't make them feel bad for not drinking. Yeah, one of my good friends at work doesn't drink, and hes also the only one in my game night that doesn't. He still has a good time at company functions without drinking. Don't feel like you have to drink to fit in or socialize. He acts drunk when he gets tired though. Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Apr 2, 2013 |
# ? Apr 2, 2013 01:55 |
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AmazonTony posted:/agreed totally. My point regarding networking was not meant to be taken as "yo dude, go party your face off an all the bros you meet will get you a sick job", it was "unless you've created the next Hotline Miami, it is going to benefit you greatly if you can string a sentence together and the people who are going to hire you like hanging out with you". Absolutely; the main thing about GDC (or other conference) parties was just about knowing which ones to go to (when you have the luxury of multiple choice...). Ones where the volume is low enough that people can actually hear your stringed-together sentences are preferrable, if networking is what you're after. That sometimes means avoiding the parties that everyone are trying their hardest to get invites to (the ones rumored to ).
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 04:02 |
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AmazonTony posted:If you're in Seattle (not sure if Digipen has schools elsewhere) and ever want to meet up and talk about the industry in general let me know, happy to grab lunch/dinner/drinks whenever. You have to like dogs though, Paddington comes with me everywhere. Sigma-X posted:Azereki - you need to post youtube videos of your games on your portfolio so people can actually see what they're like without downloading notavirus.exe from dropbox (which is blocked by a lot of companies). Your screenshots presumably don't do the gameplay justice.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 05:36 |
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You should check out Seattle's beer Wednesday. There aren't quite as many people as in OC's but it's still fun.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 07:46 |
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Chernabog posted:You should check out Seattle's beer Wednesday. There aren't quite as many people as in OC's but it's still fun. Do you go to the downtown or eastside meetup?
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 07:52 |
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Chernabog posted:You should check out Seattle's beer Wednesday. There aren't quite as many people as in OC's but it's still fun. e: Fixed my sentence butchery. TheRagamuffin fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Apr 2, 2013 |
# ? Apr 2, 2013 08:15 |
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Paniolo posted:Do you go to the downtown or eastside meetup? I used to go to Eastside. I don't live there anymore.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 08:22 |
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Chernabog posted:You should check out Seattle's beer Wednesday. There aren't quite as many people as in OC's but it's still fun.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 08:49 |
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GDC Parties aren't parties you go to to have fun, they're second shift of working the show. I went to 17 parties in six nights this year, and that was after working the sessions and show floor all day previously. I probably mixed enough booze and narcotic painkillers/anti-inflammitories to stun a yak, but I left for GDC with over 400 business cards and returned with seven. If you go to your hotel room after the show floor closes, or just go to one party, you're doing it wrong. (Not co-incidentally, I'm hopping on a train for the central valley tomorrow and vacationing somewhere with no cellular signal in a nine-mile radius for the rest of the week.)
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 10:20 |
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Azereki posted:Sure thing dude. Thanks for the advice and that would be cool once I am out for the summer in a few weeks. Awesome, hit me up via PM here or at Tvacgamer on reddit and I'll get you all my contact info. If you're going to be in Seattle for the summer and have any interest at all in live music you should get your tickets to the Capitol Hill block party: http://capitolhillblockparty.com/ It is a ton of fun, I'll be going with a number of people, you're more than welcome to come with and meet some non-digipen Seattleites as well. Chernabog posted:You should check out Seattle's beer Wednesday. There aren't quite as many people as in OC's but it's still fun. Sorry if google could have helped me here but my quick search for "Seattle Gaming Beer Wednesday" didn't give me anything I could check for a date/time/location...I'd love to go to Beer Wednesdays. Vinterstum posted:Absolutely; the main thing about GDC (or other conference) parties was just about knowing which ones to go to (when you have the luxury of multiple choice...). Ones where the volume is low enough that people can actually hear your stringed-together sentences are preferrable, if networking is what you're after. That sometimes means avoiding the parties that everyone are trying their hardest to get invites to (the ones rumored to ). Ah my bad, yeah that totally makes sense. I actually usually avoid the ragers at these things (Twitch.tv party at Pax East being the exception) and try to set up roaming evenings in whatever city I'm in with the folks I really want to get facetime with at events. Chainclaw posted:If someone says they don't / can't drink, don't pressure them to actually drink though. If someone doesn't want to go to a bar night because they don't drink, encourage them to come and order something non-alcoholic, and don't make them feel bad for not drinking. /agreed, and although I am 100% sure that there are people that hate going to bars because they don't drink, in my experience the folks that show up to happy hour and drink water/eat cheap HH food usually have just as fun as those who are imbibing.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 18:43 |
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http://www.facebook.com/groups/BeerWednesdaySeattle/?fref=ts There you go.
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 20:38 |
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GetWellGamers posted:GDC Parties aren't parties you go to to have fun, they're second shift of working the show. I went to 17 parties in six nights this year, and that was after working the sessions and show floor all day previously. I probably mixed enough booze and narcotic painkillers/anti-inflammitories to stun a yak, but I left for GDC with over 400 business cards and returned with seven. If you go to your hotel room after the show floor closes, or just go to one party, you're doing it wrong. poo poo, when I finally get to GDC, I'm hanging out with you the whole time. In a note related to the conversation of the last few pages, it's always been my mantra that the connections get you the interview, but your portfolio gets you the job. It's proven true so far in my career...
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 21:43 |
mutata posted:it's always been my mantra that the connections get you the interview, but your portfolio gets you the job. It's proven true so far in my career... Same here. Although so far in my career it's my art test that got me the job. Connections/friends/portfolio that help get the art test :P
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# ? Apr 2, 2013 21:52 |
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Old school Unreal Engine mapper question: When you guys say portals, are you talking about like, the equivalent of "zones" back in the day? Like putting sheets in doorways to separate areas from each other for optimization? Modern mapping is kinda blowing my mind because I used to be doing stuff for Unreal 1, UT (and before them, Quake, Doom, even Wolfenstein 3D). Where you were only allowed 250 polygons on screen at a time and I was constantly putting in objects to block your view, ... now there seems to be a whole different standard, which a part of me loves because it almost seems limitless in comparison, but at times it's almost overwhelmingly a lot to look at in a level editor wire frame view. I'm asking because I'm looking to be the next dude to get hazed by Ravensoft employees. Ha Ha.
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# ? Apr 3, 2013 00:13 |
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caldrax posted:Old school Unreal Engine mapper question: When you guys say portals, are you talking about like, the equivalent of "zones" back in the day? Like putting sheets in doorways to separate areas from each other for optimization? Modern mapping is kinda blowing my mind because I used to be doing stuff for Unreal 1, UT (and before them, Quake, Doom, even Wolfenstein 3D). Where you were only allowed 250 polygons on screen at a time and I was constantly putting in objects to block your view, ... now there seems to be a whole different standard, which a part of me loves because it almost seems limitless in comparison, but at times it's almost overwhelmingly a lot to look at in a level editor wire frame view. Some quick googling suggests zones served the same function. And by hazed I mean I'd probably drink too much on the inaugural intern lunch because its pretty much tradition at this point.
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# ? Apr 3, 2013 00:17 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 02:20 |
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Can we all take a moment before the next page to marvel at the orange dog in a Master Chief hat some more, please?
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# ? Apr 3, 2013 00:23 |