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McCloud posted:
As fantastic as these are (and that entire ...run? paperback? Collection?)they show pretty clearly supermans weakness: He's far to liberal for his own good. The fact that he reasons with dictator rather than overthrows them is pretty weird. And why would anyone object to him helping them? The essentially turned superman into a metaphor for the U.S. which IS pretty goddamn questionable.Superman should be above that.
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Apr 3, 2013 23:47
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Tatum Girlparts posted:"The rocks shatter against me or bounce harmlessly off. Every one hurts." The last scene of Clark Kent, not Superman, teaching a bunch of city kids how a farm works encapsulates everything I value about that character in one beautiful page.
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Apr 3, 2013 23:55
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Hellbunny posted:As fantastic as these are (and that entire ...run? paperback? Collection?)they show pretty clearly supermans weakness: He's far to liberal for his own good. The fact that he reasons with dictator rather than overthrows them is pretty weird. I think that you might have missed the point on this one. Superman isn't here to overthrow governments. That leads to a whole grey area of "...well it's okay if he overthrows a government that is outright evil but where does he draw the line...". All Superman wanted to do there make sure that no-one goes hungry again, not act as the world police officer. Basically he is saying that he isn't here to rule the world, us humans have got to learn to make things work ourselves. He will catch us if we fall (ie help us out every now and again) but he won't do the walking for us.
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Apr 4, 2013 00:02
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Mr Wind Up Bird posted:Glory 34 You could post almost all the afterlife scenes in this thread. Especially the part when Glory reunites with her first love. 
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Apr 4, 2013 00:02
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Hellbunny posted:The essentially turned superman into a metaphor for the U.S. which IS pretty goddamn questionable.Superman should be above that. Truth, justice, and the American way?
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Apr 4, 2013 00:30
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There is an acknowledged tendency for superheroes to reflect the cultural preoccupations of their country of origin. A country is a powerful thing, and the depiction of powerful characters like superheroes, in aggregate, can indicate how a country feels about power - typically its own power. Superman is American, not because he was raised in Kansas but because he was invented and refined by American writers, and sold primarily to American readers, who all see the world from the various specific perspectives of Americans (and to a lesser extent inhabitants of countries with similar or compatible perspectives). Stories about him often reveal the aspirations and anxieties of (or about) the American zeitgeist, and they do so more accurately when he is not intentionally being used as a metaphor to represent America. That kind of allegory is much more difficult for an individual writer telling a single story than for scores of them distilling the essence of the icon over eighty years, and superhero comics aren't known for always attracting top-quality talent.
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Apr 4, 2013 01:06
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Bongo Bill posted:Superman is American, not because he was raised in Kansas but because he was invented and refined by American writers, Joe Shuster was CANADIAN.
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Apr 4, 2013 04:12
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Rhyno posted:Joe Shuster was CANADIAN.  There's nothing more American than co-opting the work of immigrants to serve corporate interests.
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Apr 4, 2013 04:18
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Rhyno posted:Joe Shuster was CANADIAN. He lived in the US from the age of 9 until he died. Time enough to go native.
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Apr 4, 2013 04:20
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Isn't Metropolis supposed to be based on Toronto?
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Apr 4, 2013 06:58
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Hellbunny posted:As fantastic as these are (and that entire ...run? paperback? Collection?)they show pretty clearly supermans weakness: He's far to liberal for his own good. The fact that he reasons with dictator rather than overthrows them is pretty weird. And why would anyone object to him helping them? The essentially turned superman into a metaphor for the U.S. which IS pretty goddamn questionable.Superman should be above that. Because at that point what ground does he have to stop Lex next time he tries to take over the country or whatever? Does it just become who can make their message the most palatable to the masses? Superman doesn't heat-vision the dictator because he can't treat humans that way. What happens after the dictator's head is a smoking crater, does he stick around and monitor elections? Does he pick the new leader? Does he just fly off and leave the country to a civil war? Does he then have to do that to every country with a dictator? What about a country who freely elects someone lovely, does he come back to the US if we elect some guy who fucks something major up and heat-blast him? Superman is better than Lex because he thinks about those things, Lex's answer to all those is 'it's cool, I'm Lex Luthor, I got this' and to send in robots, Superman lets humanity be humanity, and hopes that in our worst we can remember our best. As for people not liking him, it's a blend of propaganda from their leaders and the general factor of hey some random poor guy in a former soviet territory doesn't keep up to date with a lot of stuff, some dude in a funny costume flying down with a huge pile of food saying 'go on, eat' makes them go 'uh no, this is a trick or something'.
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Apr 4, 2013 07:06
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McCloud posted:
Things Superman could do to improve the lives of the people in that comic, with varying degrees of ultraviolence and superdickery: * Spend an hour using x-ray vision to locate and destroy all of the army's weapons, thus putting them on equal footing with the people they've been oppressing. * Fly the dictator to the other side of the planet and drop him, naked, in a country where no one knows him and he doesn't speak the language. Chances are, by the time he gets home he'll no longer be president. * Rip off the dictator's head and have a nice long chat with his 2nd in command on the subject of civil rights and fair elections. Maybe arrange some pro-american-business reforms to keep the US government and, by extension, the rest of the world happy. * Use his fame and influence to call attention to human rights abuses in 3rd world countries and endorse American politicians that actually give a poo poo. What he actually does in comics: * Make some speech about his role in human affairs, then fly away and leave innocent people to suffer and die for the sake of his ideals. Avulsion fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Apr 4, 2013 |
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Apr 4, 2013 07:58
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This is why Superheroes are typically seen as "juvenile" fantasy. They solve problems in ways that are obviously far too simplistic and irresponsible to work in a complex world. It's better when they stay away from politics and law, because, being fair, most sci-fi/fantasy writers aren't experts in those fields and end up writing at a high school level understanding. You can be great at drama and pathos and excitement but still have zero real understanding of the socio-economic power structure of the world. I'd post some The Boys panels if I had any handy, Ennis brutally takes down the idea that any Superhero could possibly lead to a functional government. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Apr 4, 2013 |
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Apr 4, 2013 08:52
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Mister Roboto posted:I'd post some The Boys panels if I had any handy, Ennis brutally takes down the idea that any Superhero could possibly lead to a functional government. Please do, either you or someone else. I never read The Boys and that would be a good way to see if it's worth dipping on it.
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Apr 4, 2013 10:07
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Arctic Baldwin posted:Isn't Metropolis supposed to be based on Toronto? I like the idea (can't remember where I read it) that Metropolis is New York City in the daytime, and Gotham is New York City at night.
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Apr 4, 2013 12:34
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prefect posted:I like the idea (can't remember where I read it) that Metropolis is New York City in the daytime, and Gotham is New York City at night. It seems more like Metropolis is New York City in the present and Gotham is New York City in the 1980s.
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Apr 4, 2013 13:31
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Mister Roboto posted:I'd post some The Boys panels if I had any handy, Ennis brutally takes down the idea that any Superhero could possibly lead to a functional government. Superman can't lead the government because he's an illegal immigrant, but there's nothing stopping him from using his investigative reporter skills and super powers to find a slightly more honest politician and then use his super-popularity to campaign on their behalf. Of just endorse a regular politician and say "Hey, you work for me, not the corporations." There are a lot of ways superman or any other hero could improve the world, but the stories ultimately devolve into lifting heavy things, punching bad guys and making speeches because that poo poo sells comics. If they were able to effect any meaningful change on the world around them it would threaten the long term financial viability of the franchise, so they just keep pushing that boulder up the hill.
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Apr 4, 2013 15:01
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7744 posted:It seems more like Metropolis is New York City in the present and Gotham is New York City in the 1980s. I always liked how in the animated series Batman is in the 40s while Superman in the present.
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Apr 4, 2013 15:05
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Because at that point what ground does he have to stop Lex next time he tries to take over the country or whatever? Does it just become who can make their message the most palatable to the masses? idea that it's this horrible crime to kill a horrible dictator, so it's better to let him kill and murder people everyday. I could go on, but the point is: superman could smash the status quo like a wet tissue, but he doesn't,and that makes him a part of the problem. It's not like I don't get why they did this, but it is kinda sad. As it is Luther would be a much better revolutionary hero than Superman, since he would at least try to do something rather then mope about how hard everything is and how he wants to help us but can't. And yes, I know fully well that Luther is an awful human being, since pretty much everyone and their dog points out how consumed he is by his hatred for superman...but this really seems like a weird overreaction. Isn't it strange that every other big super villain (doctor doom, the joker) gets to have sympathetic qualities while Luther ,the guy who could change everything for the better must be this complete monster(again, obviously, there are probably some issue or whatever were Luther save the girl scout or something, I'm generalizing a bit here)? The sad fact is that the very reason superman is a hero (his purity and innate goodness) is also the one thing that forever handicaps him. The end result of comics like the one we talk about makes it seem that it is more important that superman remains pure rather then dirting himself for the sake of humanity. This incidentally why it's probably best for superman stories to ignore these kinds of things. Tatum Girlparts posted:Superman is better than Lex because he thinks about those things, Lex's answer to all those is 'it's cool, I'm Lex Luthor, I got this' and to send in robots, Superman lets humanity be humanity, and hopes that in our worst we can remember our best. Mister Chompers posted:Truth, justice, and the American way? Avulsion posted:stuff This too. Hellbunny fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Apr 4, 2013 |
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Apr 4, 2013 15:18
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Mister Roboto posted:I'd post some The Boys panels if I had any handy, Ennis brutally takes down the idea that any Superhero could possibly lead to a functional government. The only argument the Boys makes is a bitter and childish one. The reason that no superheroes are allowed to have any long-term positive effect is because the status quo doesn't allow it, not because it's impossible. Secret Identity, for example, ends with the idea that superhumans are becoming a part of society and that superpowers can be used for things beyond punching dudes. (Super speedsters functioning as couriers, for example.) It's allowed to, however briefly, explore something like that because it isn't beholden to a status quo.
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Apr 4, 2013 15:40
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I want to read an Elseworlds where Superman lands in New England instead of Kansas and grows up in a blue blooded, white collar family. Instead of growing up in Smallville, he goes to a private high school and then is accepted into Harvard Business School. He goes to work for a Fortune 500 where he uses his powers to secretly sabotage other employees / companies in his quest to rise through the corporate ranks / rule the business world. In the end though, he is undone by a merger between LexCorp and Wayne Enterprises that puts him out of business and traps him in the Phantom Zone after it's found out most of his funding comes from running a Ponzi scheme.
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Apr 4, 2013 15:41
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Mister Roboto posted:
I doubt it, many books have tried, but they ultimately just end anti-climatically with most just falling back on the nebulous concept of "but my freedom!". Red Son is the best example of this. Which is a shame, until the end it was rather decent.
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Apr 4, 2013 15:50
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Avulsion posted:Superman can't lead the government because he's an illegal immigrant, but there's nothing stopping him from using his investigative reporter skills and super powers to find a slightly more honest politician and then use his super-popularity to campaign on their behalf. Of just endorse a regular politician and say "Hey, you work for me, not the corporations." So instead of running the country in a public, accountable, way he'd run it in some shadow leader position. Yea, that'd be better. The point of this is, aside from the basic problem of 'who decides who the bad guy is in world affairs', giving one dude with the power to punch you into orbit total control over governments is basically the exact opposite of everything Superman believes in. What happens if he backs the wrong guy? He's not a mind reader, what if the dude he backs is just another dictator who is smarter than the last and knows how to hide it better at first? Does he get a do-over? Does he get to freeze breath anyone who goes 'uh maybe we get to pick our leader and not some rear end in a top hat from space?'
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Apr 4, 2013 16:08
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Tatum Girlparts posted:He's not a mind reader, But he is best friends with one, or was before Nu52. Yeah Supes would face dissension and would end up having to treat us like children but on the other hand we loving act like children. How about we assume dissension is not going to be met with immediate murder when Supes is in charge and would even be tolerated untill it turns violent where they end up in the world's nicest jail. There is a a tiny bit a space between not doing anything and turning into a Nazi and frankly Superman could probably manage it.
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Apr 4, 2013 16:46
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It sounds like some posters want Superman to act like Bush did in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Yeeeesh.
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Apr 4, 2013 17:03
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If Black Adam were a bit less of an rear end in a top hat, or if we could just see a transition from nice guy Black Adam to rear end in a top hat Adam, I think he'd perfect for the kind of stories you want to see. Comics aren't really a great medium for these foreign policy/fix the world stories anyway because they're too abstract, and comics are at their best focusing on people, dialog, and awesome looking stuff. Just look at the Superman panels that started this, that's a good but simple look at the situation, and every panel needs an explanation of what's going. Having said that, Hickman could probably do a great job at it because he isn't afraid to get into odd graphic design, as in Pax Romana.
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Apr 4, 2013 17:06
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Avulsion posted:Things Superman could do to improve the lives of the people in that comic, with varying degrees of ultraviolence and superdickery: All that has been done by non-supermen IRL and it didn't work.
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Apr 4, 2013 17:19
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Avulsion posted:Superman can't lead the government because he's an illegal immigrant, but there's nothing stopping him from using his investigative reporter skills and super powers to find a slightly more honest politician and then use his super-popularity to campaign on their behalf. Of just endorse a regular politician and say "Hey, you work for me, not the corporations." Superman can't go around freeze breathing people and making them good because then his function as an inspirational Jesus analogue doesn't make any sense. Yes it "doesn't sell comics" to have a story about an infallible benevolent dictator, but the fundamental reason it doesn't sell comics is because its a bad story.
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Apr 4, 2013 17:21
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Madkal posted:It sounds like some posters want Superman to act like Bush did in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Yeeeesh. The difference being one was a powerhungry warmonger and the other is a fictional embodiment of all that is good in us.
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Apr 4, 2013 17:25
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Hey I sure like those comics where superman punches a bad guy in the face, amiright?
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Apr 4, 2013 18:05
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Choco1980 posted:Hey I sure like those comics where superman punches a bad guy in the face, amiright? Holy Hannah, I leave for half a day and this thread implodes! This thread is the inspiring panels thread. It's for posting cool panels that you think inspire and / or are touching. This discussion, although very interesting, is also a derail, so please either take it to the off topic thread, or make your own thread. Either way, cut it out and post cool stuff!
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Apr 4, 2013 18:43
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Post good things. Contribute to the thread. Read Glory. Read Glory. Anyway in conjunction with what Mr Wind Up Bird posted Glory visits the afterworld to try and rescue her dead friends, no matter what the price.  Glory meets her friends only find out that they've come to terms with their death and both them and her one true love will wait for her until she dies and returns. Except she never can.  Glory 34.
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Apr 4, 2013 19:07
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I want to believe that if the gods decide that she'll never get to return to the afterlife, she'll just hulk out and dive down their throats and beat them to death from the inside out until they go "Whoa okay you can go already"
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Apr 4, 2013 21:08
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Or, you know... She'll 'earn' her afterlife back somehow, or the supposedly supreme beings of the universe will realise that asking people to make important life decisions in moments of extreme emotional duress is a dick move, and will cancel it. Or I guess those same gods will get killed and replaced by better ones, whatever.
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Apr 5, 2013 01:25
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Doom Patrol vol 2 #63 A few issues before, Crazy Jane (Kay Challis) was sent to another dimension by a demon. This issue, we see where she ended up: here. Someone finds her wandering the streets and she gets institutionalized. They try conventional therapy, but she's uncooperative, so one doctor proposes ECT.      For God's sake, read Doom Patrol 19–63
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Apr 6, 2013 21:21
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Waterhaul posted:Post good things. It really bums me out that this is probably not going to get an hardcover (much less an over-sized hard cover).
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Apr 7, 2013 10:49
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Karnegal posted:It really bums me out that this is probably not going to get an hardcover (much less an over-sized hard cover). They keep talking about maybe getting a hardcover collection next year, so I wouldn't rule it out entirely. Image/Liefeld seem to go above and beyond the call of duty for it given how mostly overlooked it is.
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Apr 7, 2013 13:25
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EDIT: I'm an idiot and this is probably the wrong thread for this! Like, the exact opposite of inspiring. Ah well. Locke & Key, Volume 6, Issue 3. For context, Nina Locke, mom of the family, has been struggling with alcoholism for the whole series after her husband got murdered while she got raped. Earlier this day she had a bonding moment with her eldest son, for being 30 days sober. Tonight is prom night, and all the kids are gone, except for her youngest who unknown to her has been possessed by the Big Bad for the last few months.   Later on, after the prom, her daughter comes home to find this:  
Rhaka fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 16:36
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Acknowledging that she doesn't know what really happened, that is a horrible young woman.
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Apr 7, 2013 21:25
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How does someone look at that and not immediately go "Jesus gently caress what happened to my mother?" Nope, I HATE YOU MOM.
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Apr 8, 2013 00:05
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