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The Protectorate doesn't have much to support ranged units. Typically, a ranged battlegroup will perform better than a pile of ranged units. The problem with Deliverers is that the other ranged units are Errants or (kinda) Zealots. Disregarding that caveat, Deliverers have a very nice combined attack that can actually hit, even if you're not doing more damage. I'd wager that Rocket Volley is what you should be focusing your efforts on. You're essentially RAT 1 per guy, if you do a 6 man volley you're RAT 7 POW 16, and add a 4-man RAT 5 POW 14. You have the option of just spraying down the field with lots of AOEs, but, assuming you move, you have a RNG 21 AOE 5, which ain't shabby. I'd suggest a warcaster who can increase their speed, but as a whole Deliverers are self-sustaining ENOUGH that you can always have that big rocket barrage waiting somewhere. Vigilant is cheap and, what ARM 21? Throw Defender's Ward or some other ARM buff on it and shove one into a zone. They aren't subtle pieces of equipment, especially since they can't weapon-lock larger bases anymore. None of these models are straight-up winners, but you can use the Deliverers to, say, nuke a warcaster if they run themselves empty and position too aggressively. Or, like other things with tremendous threat ranges, they're a great way to give Nemo players anxiety attacks. I'm not a Menoth player so take what I say with a grain of salt, if there's some sort of trooper ranged buff that'd work wonderfully. Heck, if you want to be super-clever, use your Vigilant, headbutt some dumb-rear end heavy, then nuke the poor bastard with your Deliverers.
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Apr 5, 2013 22:23
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Some awesome potential spoilers of CoC Servitors. All Servitors are solos with Pathfinder, and will likely be 2-3 models per point. Accretion Servitor - Two special actions: Bodge and Strip (auto deal one point of damage to enemy warjack, choosing the column) Attunement Servitor - Short range AoE 4 with Flare Elimination Servitor - Short range spray with Puncture Reflex Servitor - Essentially a Scrap Thrall with Dig In and Counter Charge 
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Apr 5, 2013 22:43
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That Reflex one needs AD or a Tier lost that gives it to it or allows for a 20' deployment. Otherwise it's a huge liability
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Apr 6, 2013 01:25
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Excelsiortothemax posted:That Reflex one needs AD or a Tier lost that gives it to it or allows for a 20' deployment. Otherwise it's a huge liability Or it just needs to not explode when disabled, which it probably won't. I doubt it's exactly like the Scrap Thrall, just fills the same role.
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Apr 6, 2013 01:43
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I hot pretty drunk and bought a lot of stuff I dont need and spent all night assembling stuff. 26 models later it's bed time. Peace.
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Apr 6, 2013 05:03
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Paper Kaiju posted:Praetorian Swordsmen w/ UA. Mini-feat auto-kills them, Side-Step allows them to get to the second rank. And unlike Nihilators, Self-Sacrifice doesn't stop their second attack (although you have to be careful with your own placement to keep him using SS to deny you targets). Thanks dude! Does anyone know what Skorne buildings look like? Working on a table and google gives me one fort.
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Apr 6, 2013 07:52
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LewdMonocle posted:Thanks dude! Closest historical analog would be Persian architecture. The best picture of a Skorne city I can reference you is on the cover of the Forces book. Also, NQ #40 has a bio of Makeda with a couple of sketches of a Skorne city. The basic theme seems to be lots of rounded towers with capped domes in tight clusters, surrounded by angular walls. The main gate is a hooded triangle.
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Apr 6, 2013 10:01
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I was reading through same random crap on the PP forums and came across this disappointing piece of news "Right now we don't plan for the Convergence of Cyriss to be added to the regular rotation of updated armies in our WARMACHINE anthology books (Cygnar, Khador, the Protectorate of Menoth, Cryx, and the Retribution of Scyrah), but we will likely add new models to their ranks from time to time. " PPS_Simon Which kinda sucks my understanding was they were to be a fully fleshed out faction but it seems this is not the case.
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Apr 6, 2013 10:07
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Hoboskins posted:I was reading through same random crap on the PP forums and came across this disappointing piece of news I saw that too, but I'm not that worried about it, honestly. They are getting a LOT right out the door, maybe more that Retribution did when it was released (I know CoC is starting with double the heavies plus the BE and Colossal, but I think with less units). And personally I've found that I enjoy factions with smaller ranges (I'm currently with Retribution and Blindwater). Besides, from what I understand PP was slowing down on everyone's releases after Hordes 'catching-up' the past two books. Edit: Plus, it gives me more time to build a CoC army with my limited minis budget.
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Apr 6, 2013 10:21
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Welp, and I wanted to start CoC. It's not like I WANT ALL THE MODELS NOW or something, but I'm concerned about the possibility of them being a "secondary" faction, like the White Dwarf codexes of GW. Yes, I know that PP has much more common sense, but once burned, twice shy. Or something.
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Apr 6, 2013 10:38
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I am really encouraged by that news, actually. The PP (surprisingly) and MoM threads cover pretty much all sides of the issue I can see but long story short they're going to be plenty to buy, easy to tweak and expand when PP wants, less expensive to maintain, less of a strain on production, and they'll be pretty much at Ret levels (and therefore pretty much at Hordes levels) at launch. If they get a new caster every couple years and access to some new Mercenaries, they won't need anything else.
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Apr 6, 2013 11:33
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Had a really close and fun game yesterday against Menoth. There's going to be a rematch next week at 25 points, and I'm pretty sure he's going to bring his Judicator plus Epic Feora. Since I'm currently playing a Caine2 list with lots of infantry, the thought makes me pretty squeamish. How do you deal with the Judicator before it eradicates all your troops in a torrent of never-ending flame damage? Here's my list: Caine 2 Ol' Rowdy Squire Reinholdt Journeyman Full Forgeguard Rhupert Carvolo (Tough for the Forgeguard) Black 13 Stormcaller
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Apr 6, 2013 12:10
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Luebbi posted:How do you deal with the Judicator before it eradicates all your troops in a torrent of never-ending flame damage? With eCaine, one way to deal with that is to feat-kill it, but it requires a very particular set up. eCaine -Reinholdt (activate before Caine on feat turn and give Reload [Free extra initial ranged attack] to him) -Squire (leech focus on feat turn so you can buy an extra shot) -Gorman (activate before Caine and apply Rust [-2 ARM] to the Judicator ) -Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (activate before Caine and have the Lady apply Kiss of Lyliss [+2 damage on target] ) Optionals -eEiryss (activate before Caine and user her Arcane Interference to shoot of any upkeeps on the Judicator) -Rangers (they give +2 on to ranged attack to hit rolls on anything within LOS & 5" of them, no matter where you are) -Ragman (activate and use Death Field [Grants Dark Shroud to friendlies within 3", if they are in melee with a target, that target is -2 ARM]) BUT: For Death Field to work, you're going to have the Firing Into Melee penalty so it might not be worth the headache, even if the Judicator is just DEF 8. So, with all of that set up and if everything hits/goes according to plan, your Judicator is will be DEF 8 and effective ARM 15 (-2 ARM from Rust, +2 on damage rolls from Kiss of Lyliss). eCaine will be RAT 9 with POW 12 guns, meaning he should always hit unless he crit misses and should be doing 3 damage a shot on average dice before his feat. But that still isn't going to tear through the Judicator's 60 box damage grid, and that's where his feat comes in. His feat is that each shot does 1 more base damage than the previous shot, which if you're just using his initials is horrible, but if you are planning it out, can be devastating. With 2 initials, Reload and 7 focus (base +1 from Squire), eCaine is about to slam 10 shots into that Judicator, each doing more damage than the last. Assuming average dice, it'll look something like this: Shot 1: Free, 3 dmg on average dice Shot 2: Free, 4 dmg on average dice (+1 from feat) Shot 3: Reload, 5 dmg on average dice (+2 from feat) Shot 3: Buy, 6 dmg on average dice (+3 from feat) Shot 4: Buy, 7 dmg on average dice (+4 from feat) Shot 5: Buy, 8 dmg on average dice (+5 from feat) Shot 6: Buy, 9 dmg on average dice (+6 from feat) Shot 7: Buy, 10 dmg on average dice (+7 from feat) Shot 8: Buy, 11 dmg on average dice (+8 from feat) Shot 9: Buy, 12 dmg on average dice (+9 from feat) Shot 10: Buy, 13 dmg on average dice (+10 from feat) That's 88 damage on average dice and one dead Judicator. And if things didn't go your way, hopefully your Forgeguard are with in charge distance and can take further advantage of the giant hole you've blown in the side of the thing. Charge boosted weapon master attacks will kill just about anything.
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Apr 6, 2013 16:59
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Vulich the Subtle posted:
I'm going to disagree with you on that one, because the Mountain King isn't meant to be a ranged beast it has has a RoF 1 gun, its a very nice gun but its one shot, also the other ranged Troll options aren't 20 points, a model that costs that much should be at least up to par with something that costs less than half its points, and given that every single other Colossal and Gargantuan is a combined weapon platform and the Mountain King is the only one who's given the 5/5 stat-line I don't think that "Ranged Trolls that are more specialised and costed/stated to reflect this have poor melee stats, thusly its fine that the Mountain King can't hit poo poo" is a reasonable argument. The Mountain King was sold to us repeatedly by Privateer as a melee beatstick and killshot is on the model because you're meant to be up there with it punch faces in. Which is where the rules for it fall apart, because you're looking at a model which won't hit anything more agile that a Khador heavy reliably with average 2d6 rolls, this is compounded by the fact that Trolls as a faction lack for direct accuracy buffs in a lot of cases, sure we have things like Grim's feat or Marked for Death/Calamity if you're feeling suicidal with your caster, but outside of eDoomie and pMadrak, we can't directly buff our own accuracy. A lot of people try and argue that KD is meant to be the Trollblood Accuracy buff, but to me that argument just seems like throwing good points after bad in support of a mediocre model who acts as a synergy parasite in a faction thats meant to be about interconnected pieces supporting each other. When you pile that on top of low boxes for a Gargantuan, an ARM 19, a situational to bad animus and needing to tow around a full suite of support staff (Krielstone, EBDT, Janissa) to go toe to toe with another gargantuan or survive being one-rounded by a Gargantuan Killer like a buffed Bronzeback. You're looking at a model that is just objectively bad for its points cost. You can complain about "hardcore" players all you want but bad models with poor rules exist, if nothing else you should be able to compare across the board between what Skorne got in the Mammoth and what Trolls got in the Mountain King, and realise that a beast that is better in every single way (Gun, ARM, Initial Attacks, Mat, Animus, boxes, additional rules) in a faction with Defenders Ward, the Willbreaker, Beast handlers and a wider range of beast support spells just further highlights how crap the Mountain King is.
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Apr 6, 2013 17:12
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When I came back to this game in early MkII, one of the first models I bought to add to my (fledgling) Circle was a Tharn Ravager Chieftain. I love Tharn Ravagers but for some reason I never got him painted. Since then, he's bounced around seven different mailing addresses, lost his head a couple of times, and until a year or so ago proxied for Kromac. Well, I got him done. I'm happy more to have him completed and the speed at which I completed him once I finally started laying paint on (less than four hours, which is fast for me), although I do think he came out pretty well. I haven't posted any pictures of my stuff in a while, so here he is (along with a group thought of some Tharn Ravager bigwigs):    
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Apr 6, 2013 17:39
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Calico Noose posted:I'm going to disagree with you on that one, because the Mountain King isn't meant to be a ranged beast it has has a RoF 1 gun, its a very nice gun but its one shot, also the other ranged Troll options aren't 20 points, a model that costs that much should be at least up to par with something that costs less than half its points, and given that every single other Colossal and Gargantuan is a combined weapon platform and the Mountain King is the only one who's given the 5/5 stat-line I don't think that "Ranged Trolls that are more specialised and costed/stated to reflect this have poor melee stats, thusly its fine that the Mountain King can't hit poo poo" is a reasonable argument. The Defender has only one shot and it's actually a really good ranged warjack, and the Leviathan has three but people think it's bad. Beast-wise I think you're secretly trying to compare it to the Mammoth, when, you know, you don't have a Mammoth, you have a Mountain King. Stop trying to force the model into a role it isn't made to work in. Calico Noose posted:The Mountain King was sold to us repeatedly by Privateer as a melee beatstick and killshot is on the model because you're meant to be up there with it punch faces in. Which is where the rules for it fall apart, because you're looking at a model which won't hit anything more agile that a Khador heavy reliably with average 2d6 rolls, this is compounded by the fact that Trolls as a faction lack for direct accuracy buffs in a lot of cases, sure we have things like Grim's feat or Marked for Death/Calamity if you're feeling suicidal with your caster, but outside of eDoomie and pMadrak, we can't directly buff our own accuracy. A lot of people try and argue that KD is meant to be the Trollblood Accuracy buff, but to me that argument just seems like throwing good points after bad in support of a mediocre model who acts as a synergy parasite in a faction thats meant to be about interconnected pieces supporting each other. Where precisely were you sold repeatedly that line? I don't think PP does much talking about how you should play your models, especially in the way you're putting it. I'd guess they're doing some sort of hyperbolic "THIS MODEL IS AWESOME BECAUSE IT CAN [superlative statement]" Also Gunnbjorn has Guided Fire. The Mountain King is good with Gunnbjorn because the Mountain King is tougher than the other ranged beasts he'll field. But I'm going to preemptively guess that since scuttlebutt says Gunnbjorn is poo poo, and the Mountain King is poo poo, the two of them have no synergy because they're both poo poo. Despite them having excellent synergy. Finally, who cares what the model is "supposed" to be, you field the model for the rules it has, not for what it is supposed to be. Killshot means it is always going to shoot, not that it gets some extra damage. I really like Seethers as being some aggressive berserking monstrosity but the rules mean that it's essentially a self-sustaining guaranteed power attack, so I don't tend to charge a pile of Kayazy and then get super-upset when I only kill the three I have in my piddly melee range. And I don't get the argument that it's a "synergy parasite" when Trollblood synergy tends to be auras and pulses, which also tend to be relatively cheap to do. So, sorry you're taking models that you'd probably be taking anyway? Calico Noose posted:When you pile that on top of low boxes for a Gargantuan, an ARM 19, a situational to bad animus and needing to tow around a full suite of support staff (Krielstone, EBDT, Janissa) to go toe to toe with another gargantuan or survive being one-rounded by a Gargantuan Killer like a buffed Bronzeback. You're looking at a model that is just objectively bad for its points cost. You can complain about "hardcore" players all you want but bad models with poor rules exist, if nothing else you should be able to compare across the board between what Skorne got in the Mammoth and what Trolls got in the Mountain King, and realise that a beast that is better in every single way (Gun, ARM, Initial Attacks, Mat, Animus, boxes, additional rules) in a faction with Defenders Ward, the Willbreaker, Beast handlers and a wider range of beast support spells just further highlights how crap the Mountain King is. Again, I am really confused. Why are you engaging another Gargantuan? Is your typical playstyle pushing your models towards the enemy, hoping for hot dice, and then getting upset when the other guy takes advantage of your lack of foresight and crushes your isolated Mountain King? Do you assume that a Gargantuan must fight a Gargantuan? Why is the Mountain King engagable? Where is the rest of your army? And no, you shouldn't be able to compare across the board, because you're not Skorne. You don't have Beast Handlers, you get Regeneration, typically higher FURY heavy warbeasts, and whelps. All Trollblood warbeasts have lackluster MAT and RAT, and Gargantuans are essentially exemplars of their army. If you don't want to play the Mountain King don't play the Mountain King, but don't demand it be changed, try and at least think a little bit about how it can be used to maximum effectiveness instead of trying to shore up what you perceive as its weaknesses. I'm not a fan of arguing "bad for point costs" because people will compare with other factions, or are surreptitiously trying to get rules changed, or simply want an unarguable position to argue from. If you want to field a model, field it properly. Don't pay the points for it, play it like something that already exists, and then complain that it's mediocre. Vulich the Subtle fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Apr 6, 2013 |
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Apr 6, 2013 18:56
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Luebbi posted:Had a really close and fun game yesterday against Menoth. There's going to be a rematch next week at 25 points, and I'm pretty sure he's going to bring his Judicator plus Epic Feora. Since I'm currently playing a Caine2 list with lots of infantry, the thought makes me pretty squeamish. How do you deal with the Judicator before it eradicates all your troops in a torrent of never-ending flame damage? I have a Koan for you, that I feel will solve any confusion you may have in the future. If you meet the Judicator on the road to enlightenment, run to engage.
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Apr 6, 2013 19:03
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Frankly, I don't think this kind of "make some lemonade" attitude is constructive. People, very skilled people who play a LOT of Warmachine/Hordes, have played the Mountain King for almost a year. It's bad. It's as bad as they say it is. It is a bad model. It's not all theorymachine and it's not because they're missing "obvious" combos like Gunnbjorn/Winter Troll. If those combos are obvious to one person they're obvious to others. Jason Flanzer lost at Templecon (I believe, might have been another con) because of the Mountain King's MAT 5. Lategame he delivered it to Harby and couldn't hit, though he rolled a 10 on 3d6 more than once (he needed an 11 due to Awe). Flanzer is a good player, probably one of the best in the world. He tried to make it work and couldn't come up with situations where he could not have made a more effective list using 20 points of other stuff. I encourage defenders of the Mountain King to read the Troll forums, because they're getting really sick of people coming in there and telling them that what they know is wrong and the Mountain King totally works if you use him with X. No, he doesn't. They've tried that. They've tried everything you can think of and more besides. THA put it best: "I disagree. Letting someone know that the MtK actually can't charge something, Power Sweep and use Amuck is constructive. We constantly had to correct rules errors like that from people defending the MtK. Pointing out that Mulg is more survivable than a MtK when both are at Arm 23 due to the easier access and lower defense of the MtK is constructive - you may disagree with it, but it is a valid discussion of tactics and strategy. Most of the criticism of the MtK was constructive - for most of a year anyway. Then at some point everyone seemed to lose their minds and start coming onto the forums to tell us all about how our most of a year of playtesting was wrong, and if we just realized that Wild Aggression fixes Mat 5 all our troubles with the MtK would disappear. We didn't start at the level of dismissing people telling us we were whining. It was post, after post, after post, after post from people that hadn't played the MtK, often didn't play the faction, frequently got rules wrong and rarely contributed anything constructive. It escalated recently with people from all over the forums coming around to show how to be constructive by calling us all whiners - while ignoring all the of the positive constructive threads discussing the things we liked about Gargantuans." The point is, sometimes PP screws up and releases garbage. Because the Mountain King is the huge centerpiece show model of the Troll faction this year, people really want him to work, and the fact that he is absolute unsalvageable garbage doesn't seem to sink in. But he is. The reason I say that pretending this isn't so is unproductive is, as hard as it is to believe, PP listens to the players. We had a whole Field Test before Mk2. Some things, like eLich and eHaley, were complained about extensively by players but made it through anyways-- but many more things did not and were weeded out. And when Mk3 inevitably rolls around if there's a cohort of people shouting NO THE MOUNTAIN KING IS FINE then he won't get the buff he sorely deserves.
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Apr 6, 2013 19:13
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Lofidelity Media posted:Lots of useful eCaine stuff Thanks for posting this - I know about the eCaine feat of death already, but the complete support chain behind it, backed up with actual numbers, was an interesting read! Sadly, at the 25 points level I can't pull all that crazy shenanigans. A mixture of your and Vulich's advice will have to suffice, I guess. Alternatively, I can demoralize my opponent by painting every single piece of my terrain cygnar blue. 
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Apr 6, 2013 19:14
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Vulich the Subtle posted:The Defender has only one shot and it's actually a really good ranged warjack, and the Leviathan has three but people think it's bad. Beast-wise I think you're secretly trying to compare it to the Mammoth, when, you know, you don't have a Mammoth, you have a Mountain King. Stop trying to force the model into a role it isn't made to work in. The Defender is also range 16, pow 15, Rat 6, and often has access to snipe. It's also mat 7 pow 16 in melee so there's that. Also nobody thinks the Levi is bad, it's just a bit of a focus hog. There's really no comparison to be made here, apples and oranges. Vulich the Subtle posted:Where precisely were you sold repeatedly that line? I don't think PP does much talking about how you should play your models, especially in the way you're putting it. I'd guess they're doing some sort of hyperbolic "THIS MODEL IS AWESOME BECAUSE IT CAN [superlative statement]" No Quarter, Convention presentations, and PP Insiders. Not long ago Hungerford (I think, it was the Legion versus Ret one an issue or two ago) described the Archangel's flight giving it superior mobility and a edge over the other colossals. He also completely ignored that while yes, you can fly over models it's speed can't be buffed outside of Llyth3 and landing a 5 inch base anywhere with speed 6 and infantry/obstructions to consider mean that it's actually the slowest/least mobile one out there. (Even the WW has access to speed buff animi and solos with Hunter's Mark from solos) So yeah, they do talk up their stuff a lot. Why wouldn't they? They want this stuff to sell after all. I remember hearing the same sort of stuff that Calico heard back when the Gargantuans were announced. Vulich the Subtle posted:Also Gunnbjorn has Guided Fire. The Mountain King is good with Gunnbjorn because the Mountain King is tougher than the other ranged beasts he'll field. But I'm going to preemptively guess that since scuttlebutt says Gunnbjorn is poo poo, and the Mountain King is poo poo, the two of them have no synergy because they're both poo poo. Despite them having excellent synergy. How does boosting one spray attack make a 20 point model good, considering that's all he really does for it? I'd argue that eDommie has much better support thanks to Wild Aggression. Vulich the Subtle posted:Finally, who cares what the model is "supposed" to be, you field the model for the rules it has, not for what it is supposed to be. Killshot means it is always going to shoot, not that it gets some extra damage. I really like Seethers as being some aggressive berserking monstrosity but the rules mean that it's essentially a self-sustaining guaranteed power attack, so I don't tend to charge a pile of Kayazy and then get super-upset when I only kill the three I have in my piddly melee range. And I don't get the argument that it's a "synergy parasite" when Trollblood synergy tends to be auras and pulses, which also tend to be relatively cheap to do. So, sorry you're taking models that you'd probably be taking anyway? Yes and no. Not every list takes the Stone, and Janissa is a character so your armor bonus from EBDT animus may be hard to come by sometimes. Plus if you're setting that up, it limits your options for dropping that crucial wall to protect your caster or block enemy charges. Vulich the Subtle posted:Again, I am really confused. Why are you engaging another Gargantuan? Is your typical playstyle pushing your models towards the enemy, hoping for hot dice, and then getting upset when the other guy takes advantage of your lack of foresight and crushes your isolated Mountain King? Do you assume that a Gargantuan must fight a Gargantuan? Why is the Mountain King engagable? Where is the rest of your army? Well, if you're playing Gunnbjorn it's the only thing (unless you're taking melee beasts as well) you'll have that can reliably kill another Gargossal for starters. (plus most the time you'll be dying to regular heavies and weaponmasters rather the another Gargossal, but that's beside the point) In order to actually have an effect on the battle the MK has to be right up in the midfield with everyone else, otherwise he's wasted points. Vulich the Subtle posted:And no, you shouldn't be able to compare across the board, because you're not Skorne. You don't have Beast Handlers, you get Regeneration, typically higher FURY heavy warbeasts, and whelps. All Trollblood warbeasts have lackluster MAT and RAT, and Gargantuans are essentially exemplars of their army. They don't really. Most are Mat 6 Rat 5, which is average. (Plus mat 7 characters) I wouldn't call that lackluster by any stretch. The MK has no reason to be Mat 5 at all. Every single other Gargossal is better in that respect. Vulich the Subtle posted:If you don't want to play the Mountain King don't play the Mountain King, but don't demand it be changed, try and at least think a little bit about how it can be used to maximum effectiveness instead of trying to shore up what you perceive as its weaknesses. Better men than us have tried and failed, believe me. Demanding it to be changed it is pointless agreed, but no matter how much you polish poo poo it's still poo poo. Points for points an EBDT and a Bomber are almost always better value. You can take all of this support to make it decent, or you can take already good beasts on their own and make them great. Vulich the Subtle posted:I'm not a fan of arguing "bad for point costs" because people will compare with other factions, or are surreptitiously trying to get rules changed, or simply want an unarguable position to argue from. If you want to field a model, field it properly. Don't pay the points for it, play it like something that already exists, and then complain that it's mediocre. That's just good list building though, figuring out what models are the best value for the goals you want to achieve. If model costs 10 points and only does the damage of a model that costs 8, I will go for the 8 cost model every time.
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Apr 6, 2013 19:35
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Frankly, I don't think this kind of "make some lemonade" attitude is constructive. People, very skilled people who play a LOT of Warmachine/Hordes, have played the Mountain King for almost a year. It's bad. It's as bad as they say it is. It is a bad model. It's not all theorymachine and it's not because they're missing "obvious" combos like Gunnbjorn/Winter Troll. If those combos are obvious to one person they're obvious to others. Most of my experience on the Trollbloods forum basically boils down to "People of higher authority than you have said that your plan doesn't fix the Mountain King. QED." Or a lot of whining, demanding they get a Mammoth equivalent. Have you played the Mountain King a lot? Our Trollbloods player has, and in his two SR2013 lists each include a Mountain King. I can get the lists later, but he plays Grim1 and Gunnbjorn, with a Mountain King in each. If he moves to Grim2, he won't use a Mountain King in there because it isn't a good model with him. Now, how does he have success with the model? It's a support piece, it isn't doing the majority of the work. His two casters have fantastic assassination potential. While you're trying to kill the Mountain King, and you'll probably succeed, Grim1 has moved into position to kill your warcaster. Gunnbjorn will typically use the Mountain King as a stopping block for your forces and then mow most of your forces down with Sluggers. He doesn't provide much support to the Mountain King because he isn't using it as a brunt piece of meat, he's using it to threaten SP10s and Sweeps, and, typically when playing against me, he can effectively neuter my Bane Thralls through volume of fire, meaning I either have to go for a long charge using Tartarus and not getting that many involved, or slog up farther and possibly lose the entire unit. The rest of his army is doing stuff, too. He has Bombers, Scattergunners somewhere, I'm pretty sure he has a Slag Troll in his Gunnbjorn list. Not to say Flanzer is a bad player, but unless things have gone wrong on my friend's side, he'd be killing the Harbinger with something else, probably Grim1 or Gunnbjorn. His scenario play isn't shabby, either. 7.5" throws are a thing. I'm sure you'll propose that he'd have better success with Mulg, but that's putting a square peg in a round hole. Mulg doesn't have guns.
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Apr 6, 2013 19:50
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I see this coming up now and again so just remember everyone, that Colossals and Gargantuansdo not suffer the target in melee penalty when your shooting at them while they are engaged. . Also a missed shot against the Gargossal does not get rerolled against a another model engaged in melee with it, it just fails. Excelsiortothemax fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 6, 2013 |
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Apr 6, 2013 19:52
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Vulich the Subtle posted:Mulg doesn't have guns. Mulg + an Axer and save some points! Sounds like a winning formula to me.
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Apr 6, 2013 20:19
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Hipster Occultist posted:The Defender is also range 16, pow 15, Rat 6, and often has access to snipe. It's also mat 7 pow 16 in melee so there's that. Also nobody thinks the Levi is bad, it's just a bit of a focus hog. There's really no comparison to be made here, apples and oranges. I'm glad we agree, the three ranged comparisons are very different. Hipster Occultist posted:No Quarter, Convention presentations, and PP Insiders. Not long ago Hungerford (I think, it was the Legion versus Ret one an issue or two ago) described the Archangel's flight giving it superior mobility and a edge over the other colossals. He also completely ignored that while yes, you can fly over models it's speed can't be buffed outside of Llyth3 and landing a 5 inch base anywhere with speed 6 and infantry/obstructions to consider mean that it's actually the slowest/least mobile one out there. (Even the WW has access to speed buff animi and solos with Hunter's Mark from solos) Well, technically it's the most mobile of all the colossaluans because it can do ride-by attacks, and also has flight. So, he isn't lying. Every colossaluan has problems with fitting into positions, though. Hipster Occultist posted:How does boosting one spray attack make a 20 point model good, considering that's all he really does for it? I'd argue that eDommie has much better support thanks to Wild Aggression. There's an old adage that says "Boosted POW 12s kills casters." The fact that you don't consider anything beyond hitting things with fists and using its spray to be useful is really sad, because it has a lot of utility if you use that mystic art called the Power Attack. How much is a boostable SP10 POW 16 with a bunch of health behind it worth, anyway? I imagine it's gotten quite deflated if we include power models like the Avatar. Hipster Occultist posted:Well, if you're playing Gunnbjorn it's the only thing (unless you're taking melee beasts as well) you'll have that can reliably kill another Gargossal for starters. (plus most the time you'll be dying to regular heavies and weaponmasters rather the another Gargossal, but that's beside the point) In order to actually have an effect on the battle the MK has to be right up in the midfield with everyone else, otherwise he's wasted points. My friend will typically solve a gargantuan/colossal problem by ignoring it until it is necessary to respond. In that case he'll use his battlegroup (Bomber, Slag, Impaler, Winter) to soften it up before stomping it into the ground with the MtK with the Slag animus on it. Hipster Occultist posted:They don't really. Most are Mat 6 Rat 5, which is average. (Plus mat 7 characters) I wouldn't call that lackluster by any stretch. The MK has no reason to be Mat 5 at all. Every single other Gargossal is better in that respect. I actually made a spreadsheet because I'm a massive sperg. Average heavy MAT is 5.5, 6 if we include characters. Average heavy RAT is 4, and is 5 if you don't include the obviously melee-oriented beasts (Mulg, EBDT, Mauler). Average light MAT is 5.22, and average RAT is 4.33. The Slag Troll and Rok are the two big outliers, the Slag Troll having MAT 6 / RAT 5 and ROK being 7/5 respectively. So, in a single package, the Mountain King has higher RAT than most of his fellow warbeasts, and if you consider him a ranged beast, he has the exact same MAT/RAT as the Bomber, the Blitzer, and the Impaler. So the opinion that the MtK is a bad melee beast is true mostly because he's actually a ranged beast. Hipster Occultist posted:Better men than us have tried and failed, believe me. Demanding it to be changed it is pointless agreed, but no matter how much you polish poo poo it's still poo poo. Points for points an EBDT and a Bomber are almost always better value. You can take all of this support to make it decent, or you can take already good beasts on their own and make them great. I don't know if they're better men. They've played a lot of games, and have a respected opinion amongst the community, but to propose they possess some higher civic virtue that we should hail for time immemorial is kinda stupid. Good men can be wrong, or have bad opinions. Hipster Occultist posted:That's just good list building though, figuring out what models are the best value for the goals you want to achieve. If model costs 10 points and only does the damage of a model that costs 8, I will go for the 8 cost model every time. Good list building is not looking for the best for the points, it's looking for the most effective for the points, considering your objectives. If you're playing SR2013 and your gameplan is to consistently threaten assassination from Turn 1 but also possess enough infantry to challenge a strong scenario game, you aren't going to take the Avatar constantly. Different models do different things. Or are you of the opinion that there are only several list builds out there and if one plays Cygnar and wants to play Haley2 they will only play double Stormwall? dexefiend posted:Mulg + an Axer and save some points! Sounds like a winning formula to me. But then you aren't using Guided Fire or Return Fire so it isn't actually a good replacement. Vulich the Subtle fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Apr 6, 2013 |
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Apr 6, 2013 20:43
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Stop trying to defend the Mountain King, it's garbage, everyone knows it is garbage and at the bottom of the poo poo heap that has been three of the Gargantuans.
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Apr 6, 2013 21:30
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Vulich the Subtle posted:The Mountain King is good with Gunnbjorn... I did a triple-take at this point and could not continue reading. That statement was simply amazing and beautiful and part of me loves you for making that post. Seriously. That's amazing and I'd love to see it in play. I can't even describe how I feel about it. Absolutely needs to be preserved for posterity. e: Have now caught up. Still an amazing conclusion to draw and I'd love to see it work. Even though I don't expect it to work, it would be hilarious. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 6, 2013 |
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Apr 6, 2013 21:38
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Vulich the Subtle posted:And no, you shouldn't be able to compare across the board, because you're not Skorne. You don't have Beast Handlers, you get Regeneration, typically higher FURY heavy warbeasts, and whelps. All Trollblood warbeasts have lackluster MAT and RAT, and Gargantuans are essentially exemplars of their army. Most of your points have already been addressed but this one amused me, as my Exemplary paragon of Troll Warbeasts doesn't have Regeneration it got a gimmick and a bad threshold instead, it's also got the same fury as a Mammoth and less attacks. You keep telling me its wrong for me to compare it to a Mammoth, but i don't see why that is, these are two Gargantuan with the same point cost released at the same time and as I pointed out Skorne do just as much if not more to buff their gargantuan, it doesn't seem wrong to me to compare apples to apples and notice that one appeal appears to be nice, shiny and juicy while the other one has maggots in it. Calico Noose fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 00:17
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Sorry guys but the Mountain King Is Not Good. Why are we still arguing about this.
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Apr 7, 2013 00:55
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The best part is, he doesn't even play the MK himself and is just white knighting it for his pro friend who has totally unlocked the code unlike chumps like Flanzer.
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Apr 7, 2013 01:12
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Vulich the Subtle posted:Good list building is not looking for the best for the points, it's looking for the most effective for the points, considering your objectives. If you're playing SR2013 and your gameplan is to consistently threaten assassination from Turn 1 but also possess enough infantry to challenge a strong scenario game, you aren't going to take the Avatar constantly. Different models do different things. Or are you of the opinion that there are only several list builds out there and if one plays Cygnar and wants to play Haley2 they will only play double Stormwall? "Figuring out what models are the best value for the goals you want to achieve" (what I posted earlier in that quoted post) Just going to leave that here and let you argue with yourself now. Honestly you're just so loving dumb it's a wonder you can even read your cards. Hipster Occultist fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 01:33
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Assault Kommandos have sweet models. Are they worth taking? Edit: derp, I can't read two pages ago. demota fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 01:41
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demota posted:Assault Kommandos have sweet models. Are they worth taking? I see someone almost thought they were worth 30 dollars for 10
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Apr 7, 2013 01:51
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Fyrbrand posted:The best part is, he doesn't even play the MK himself and is just white knighting it for his pro friend who has totally unlocked the code unlike chumps like Flanzer. Look man I'm a much better player because I paid my  making my arguments more legitimater.I just find the massive "All the pro players say it's bad don't even try and make it work" to be both presumptuous and really loving stupid. I thought most people stopped doing that when we entered puberty. If you want to make the Mountain King work, you can do X, Y, and Z. If your response to someone asking how to use a model is "It's poo poo don't even buy it" then you're probably a shitheel of the highest order. We can argue about whether it's useful for high-level play until the cows come home, but saying there are no redeeming qualities is lovely groupthink. Hipster Occultist posted:"Figuring out what models are the best value for the goals you want to achieve" (what I posted earlier in that quoted post) There is a distinction, I swear! If I'm looking for a model to neuter low-MAT models I can take Erebus, but at 8 points taking Erebus to do shooting is stupid. Don't take the Mountain King to punch things, it's a ranged beast that can't take concerted damage so set it back a little bit and spray. This isn't difficult. The argument for taking Mulg instead doesn't make sense because Mulg isn't doing what the Mountain King does. Hooly gently caress this is a hornets nest I've stirred up, I'm not that much of a contrarian I swear. I should have chosen a better rock to make my last stand on, though. Vulich the Subtle fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 01:55
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Those are some sexy Tharn, man.
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Apr 7, 2013 02:07
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Vulich the Subtle posted:Look man I'm a much better player because I paid my No one is saying "all the pro players say it's bad don't even try and make it work" or that it has "no redeeming qualities" (except to say that its good points do not redeem it) or even "[model X i]s poo poo don't even buy it." They're saying that the As an aside, this is a very deep game with a very social and very centralized hobby aspect. The standard-bearers are at the top of the game for a reason. Jason Flanzer, Keith Christenson, Danny Modesto, Jake Van Miter (Meter? Metir? god) are not just loudmouths who've had some luck; they're the Bobby Fischers and Rod Lavers of this (much smaller, but still skill-intensive) game. This is not 40k or roulette. EDIT: And when we're saying "perform" or "performance," we're not just talking about stuff killed. Everyone in this thread who's been playing for more than a month or two is aware that scenarios exist, that board position is important, that momentum and psychology have an impact on progress, and that lucky dice, while not ever something to blame, can always confound or delight you. We are saying that when you aggregate all of the different performance metrics, Mountain Kings (and things like it) seem to have material shortcomings at 50 points. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 02:11
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I ducked out around when the Woldwrath hit the shelves. How has stuff changed for Circle? Has anyone made the griffon interesting? What's coming out soon?
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Apr 7, 2013 02:34
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That said i wouldn't feel that bad about telling somebody "don't buy it" about a Mountain King provided i then went on to give the reasons to why i wouldn't buy it, I wouldn't do the say with a light beast or something like that but $130 is a lot of money to throw down on something that's only occasionally useful for casual play.
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Apr 7, 2013 02:38
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!amicable posted:I ducked out around when the Woldwrath hit the shelves. How has stuff changed for Circle? Has anyone made the griffon interesting? What's coming out soon? !amicable!!! We got a new griffon and it's amazing and has a better head! We got eMorvahna and she fixes most of our worst matchups so you can take your favorite caster (I know it's Kromac, but I mean whoever's reading this's favorite) in the second list! There's a new Satyr who may replace Feral with probably everyone except eKaya (who will probably never want him), Skinwalkers got fixed and are okay now, and Tharn multiwounders have a place to call home with eMorvahna (you're going to hear a lot of hyperbole but consensus exists that on paper she's one of the best casters in the faction, probably in hordes). Pagini won Mayhem Cup with her literally the weekend after Gargantuans came out. Like, many stores hadn't even gotten her in stock yet. I missed you buddy! EDIT: Calico Noose posted:That said i wouldn't feel that bad about telling somebody "don't buy it" about a Mountain King provided i then went on to give the reasons to why i wouldn't buy it, I wouldn't do the say with a light beast or something like that but $130 is a lot of money to throw down on something that's only occasionally useful for casual play. I wouldn't feel bad about telling someone not to buy a Woldwrath because even as a wold-lover I think it's ugly as a dead tooth. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 02:38
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Sulecrist posted:(boy this sentence sucks) I feel as if I could use a different line of reasoning we'd eventually figure out we're all agreeing but I drat well just can't figure out the best way. I disagree with the statements being made but I don't disagree with the vast majority of the conclusions; I'm apparently used to good play having to be explicitly pointed out and not assumed. At the very least we got a good scrap out of the deal, even if I appear to be some sort of 
Vulich the Subtle fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 02:43
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!amicable posted:I ducked out around when the Woldwrath hit the shelves. How has stuff changed for Circle? Has anyone made the griffon interesting? What's coming out soon? Some may say that, asides from the Woldwrath itself, they won Gargantuans. They made the Griffon interesting by making a new one that can do a POW 12 Trample over medium and large bases, with Amuck (which is actually useful for it). New Satyr that's essentially a budget Bronzeback (Grab & Smash with the standard Hard-Headed, plus free charging and Bulldoze animus). Medium base Tharn archers with Assault & Battery. Opinions are mixed. It may have been released before you ducked out, but Warpborn Alpha fixes Skinwalkers. Epic Morvahna is AMAZING. She's apparently the new top-tier competitive warlock, from what I've heard.
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Apr 7, 2013 02:45
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