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Kampfbereit posted:Vikings were not illiterate, they just chose their words carefully. Yeah that was an overstatement on my part, I know about runic inscriptions, but they weren't writing history with those. My point was that the primary historical records are all from non-Vikings.
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Apr 4, 2013 15:54
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Noni posted:I do enjoy you history buffs talking about the show. You know, it does present an opportunity. Back when Rome aired on HBO, a few historians would post commentary about each episode right after they aired: what the show got right, what was wrong, and a bunch of interesting tidbits to help novices fill the gaps. I, Claudius, similarly, has been used for decades in Classics courses. Well the end of episode 4, where Ragnar sends of Floki to challenge the Jarl to single combat was kind of fun. I had somewhat anticipated it, since the trial against Ragnar failed and when Ragnar started explaining how and why the Earl should accept the challenge, I wondered why he didn't use the word Holmgang. A holm is a small island and gang just means to walk or be on it. Holmgang was used in the viking era and early medieval times to settle disputes. They where basically a duel on a small area, not necessarily an island. both sagas and real historical sources attest to this being a somewhat commen way to settle disputes and it led to the rise of warriors who used it as a way to get riches. It was outlawed in early medieval time. Family Values posted:Yeah that was an overstatement on my part, I know about runic inscriptions, but they weren't writing history with those. My point was that the primary historical records are all from non-Vikings. that is certainly true, but not all of them was written by enemies. One of the primary sources to early Danish/Scandinavic history is the friar Saxo, who on behalf of the danish bishop Absalon (the so called founder of Copenhagen) was charged with writting the History of Denmark in the Gesta Danorum. From its formation to Saxo's present in the 12th century. He gives a very positive and sometimes funny view into how later medieval society saw the viking past. Your post made me reread Saxos account regarding Ragnar (Regner in modern danish). which deviate a lot from the series (obviously).
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Apr 4, 2013 17:24
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As much as I really enjoy the show, I also enjoy getting schooled on the real history in this thread. Keep it up!
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Apr 4, 2013 18:26
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Not cool.
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Apr 4, 2013 18:36
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Equester posted:Well the end of episode 4, where Ragnar sends of Floki to challenge the Jarl to single combat was kind of fun. I had somewhat anticipated it, since the trial against Ragnar failed and when Ragnar started explaining how and why the Earl should accept the challenge, I wondered why he didn't use the word Holmgang. A holm is a small island and gang just means to walk or be on it. Holmgang was used in the viking era and early medieval times to settle disputes. They where basically a duel on a small area, not necessarily an island. both sagas and real historical sources attest to this being a somewhat commen way to settle disputes and it led to the rise of warriors who used it as a way to get riches. It was outlawed in early medieval time. Good point! I guess there must have been special rules for Jarls though, otherwise they would spend their entire days dueling upstarts. Like ”you can only challenge those of your own social standing”. Often the "island" they fought on was a mat of animal skins placed on the ground. The "island" symbolism probably meant that the fighters could not step off, and spectators could not interfere. Dueling was especially used to solve disputes in cases of honour, libel and slander, which the Vikings took very seriously. Call a Viking "unmanly", and that day would end with at least one of you bleeding out on a throw rug. A version of Holmgång is Spänna Bälte (tighten the belt), depicted here in a series of bronze reliefs and statues. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E4ltesp%E4nnarna Paraphrasing a book on ethnology from 1868: The challenger says ”how deep in your gut can you take my knife?” The challenged replies ”I can take it as deep as you can” The challenger says ”I will cut you a hole so the sun and moon can shine inside you”, pulls out his blade and shows how deep the stabbing will be. The blades are then wrapped with leather beneath this point. The combattants are stripped naked and tied together at the waist with a belt. And then the fun begins. This was popular up until the 18th century. --- Oh yeah, all the navigation tools in episode 1 are historically accurate. Sunwheel, sunstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland_spar) and ravens. The ravens were also Odins gatherers of information. Each day his ravens Hugin and Munin (~ Mind and Memory) circle the world and observe everything. Then they come back to the Allfather, put their beaks into his ears, and regurgitate their knowledge straight into his brain. So it makes total sense to use ravens to find land. The creation story they told Aethelstan in episode 5 is also true.   Odin slew the giant Ymir and created the seas from his blood, the mountains from his bones and the earth from his flesh etc etc. (By the way, why is this not taught in schools?) I love how embarassed Aethelstan looked when they asked how his pansy-rear end god created earth. I hope he converts.
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Apr 4, 2013 19:47
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Kampfbereit posted:--- Another accurate detail is how Ragnar depends on Odin the most, Odin was most popular among people such as the jarls/nobles and also the warriors. Thor on the other hand was a more popular god amount people such as freemen farmers and also was more working class from things such as his rude adventures with Loki.
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Apr 4, 2013 19:55
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Kampfbereit posted:I love how embarassed Aethelstan looked when they asked how his pansy-rear end god created earth. I hope he converts. I didn't really interpret his expression as embarrassment that his story wasn't "cool" enough, but rather more of a well-here-they-go-making-fun-of-me-again-what's-the-point-in-trying look. There have been several instances so far where Aethelstan seems to be picking up on basic similarities between his Christian beliefs and what these pagan people practice, and being surprised by that. He probably previously knew no more of them than rumors and probably exaggerated stories of uncouth nasty pagans told by other priests or their enemies. There's one moment this last episode where he is slightly fascinated when Floki answers Lagertha's concern that they're eating his winter stores with "The gods will provide" (cue Abraham and Isaac). They love, they value family and friendship, and they trust in a higher power. He's starting to see them as real people, but I don't think he's necessarily losing his faith. If anything, he's starting to understand where their common grounds are. But that's just my interpretation, since the show seems to be intentionally vague as to what is actually going through Aethelstan's head.
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Apr 4, 2013 20:29
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I was hoping that they would answer Aethelstan's question about Ragnarok and then he'd explain what Armageddon is to them and all the Norse people would be surprised by how badass his seemingly wussy religion could be. Then again, I'm pretty sure the modern interpretation of Armageddon as the armies of Heaven and Earth vs the Anti-christ/Hell wasn't invented until after the time period the show takes place in.
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Apr 4, 2013 20:41
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etalian posted:Another accurate detail is how Ragnar depends on Odin the most, Odin was most popular among people such as the jarls/nobles and also the warriors. Indeed, Odin being, amongst other things, the god of war. As you say, Thor was much more of an working class god. He was hotheaded, impulsive and stupid, all things a raider could identify with. Odin was all about book-learnin' and ivory tower intellectualism. All polytheistic religions have that kind of flexibility. If you are a farmer you would probably worship Freya, as she is the one handling your business. A fisherman would worship Njörðr. If you are into skiing, snowboarding and surfing, Ullr is your god. I believe this is what prompted the veneration of saints in early christianity. Replacing my entire pantheon with a one-size-fits-all god seems like a stupid thing. But what is that, you say? There is a "saint" I can talk to about my harvest/skiing/knitting? It is interesting how Floki seems to revel in chaos and destruction (ripping off the soldiers crucifix, burning Lindisfarne, spitting communion wine, stabbing the priest). This is appropriate if his main deity is Loki. If you worship Odin, your sacrament would be battle. A farmer worshipping Freya would sacrifice produce to her. An Odinist like Ragnar could have resolved the first standoff at the beach peacefully, and then cleverly chosen his battleground (Odin also being the god of wisdom). A Loki-ist like Floki would only want the most chaotic outcome, since Loki does not care about heroic battles. Loki is a real rear end in a top hat. I believe that Floki is an outcast because of his use of magic. Magic was something only women did, so for a man to dabble in it would make him ergi (unmanly). This is just a small step from argr (gay). It makes sense that an outcast like Floki would choose an rear end in a top hat god. Like how a bullied teen becomes a goth satanist. The only thing that is a real annoyance is that the ship has the steering oar on the port side. Hey, it's called "starboard" for a reason! MY IMMERSION! (This might of course be some kind of clever Floki thing, to introduce more chaos into the world by flaunting the rules of shipbuilding.) Pioneer42 posted:I didn't really interpret his expression as embarrassment that his story wasn't "cool" enough, but rather more of a well-here-they-go-making-fun-of-me-again-what's-the-point-in-trying look. canuckanese posted:I was hoping that they would answer Aethelstan's question about Ragnarok and then he'd explain what Armageddon is to them and all the Norse people would be surprised by how badass his seemingly wussy religion could be. Then again, I'm pretty sure the modern interpretation of Armageddon as the armies of Heaven and Earth vs the Anti-christ/Hell wasn't invented until after the time period the show takes place in. So, priest, tell me about this armageddon! Ah, let me read to you from the book of revelation! "And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:" wh... what? Weeping merchants? "The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble," Priest, get to the good part! "And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men." Does your god get eaten by a giant wolf? Odin gets eaten by a giant wolf. ...
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Apr 4, 2013 21:24
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I initially thought the show might be trying to make Athelstan stay and become one of the first christian missionaries in the North, but that would be a bit early chronologically I think? He seems intent on becoming a free man at least, wonder what will come out of that. Kampfbereit posted:A version of Holmgång is Spänna Bälte (tighten the belt), depicted here in a series of bronze reliefs and statues. This statue is fondly known as The Dildo Fight in Gothenburg, at least in my circle of friends.
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Apr 4, 2013 21:27
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Pioneer42 posted:
In listening to the Thor's Angels podcast by Dan Carlin he discusses how Christianity absorbed a lot of cultural traits from the Germanics during the Migration Period in order to attract converts.
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Apr 4, 2013 21:47
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I wonder if they are going to go into Lagertha being a pirate at any point. You'd think it would be a neat little bit of characterization and it could possibly factor in to their escape (knowing how to navigate / handle a boat, etc.)
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Apr 4, 2013 21:50
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Kampfbereit posted:Indeed, Odin being, amongst other things, the god of war. As you say, Thor was much more of an working class god. He was hotheaded, impulsive and stupid, all things a raider could identify with. Odin was all about book-learnin' and ivory tower intellectualism. All polytheistic religions have that kind of flexibility. If you are a farmer you would probably worship Freya, as she is the one handling your business. A fisherman would worship Njörðr. If you are into skiing, snowboarding and surfing, Ullr is your god. I believe this is what prompted the veneration of saints in early christianity. Replacing my entire pantheon with a one-size-fits-all god seems like a stupid thing. But what is that, you say? There is a "saint" I can talk to about my harvest/skiing/knitting? As a farmer you would most likely worship Frey, Freyas brother who was the god of farming, animal husbandry, male fertility and so on. depending on the time and era, a farmer would most likely also worship Thor. Since most Vikings was farmers to. Freya was more reserved for women and was the goddess of love, sejd (female magic, which Odin learned) fertility, war and death. The latter two aspects she shares with Odin and Tyr/Tir. Her aspects and the fact that she is Vanir not and Ase god, indicates that she might have originally belonged to an older religion, incorporated into later norse religion. Since several gods share aspects and there is a story about how the two god races initially fought each other. The stalemate sees Njord and his children Frey and Freya joining the Ase Patheon. Most likely, like with Greek and Roman religion, a lot of local gods was slowly absorbed into a larger shared Pantheon. Later contact with Christians might also have given rise to the tradition of wearing a Mjölner (thors hammer) amulet, to seperate you from the Christians with their cross. Thor was most likely the most popular god, in strict norse mythology, we got more myths regarding him than any other norse god. The wide variaty of Mjölner amuletes found cirtainly indicates this. Written accounts from Adam of Bremmen and Icelandic sources puts Thor above Odin in the Hierarchy. Though it's hard to confirm this, since we have so few primary sources.
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Apr 4, 2013 22:09
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The Norse god stories are entertaining with the Thor/Loki ones being the best, my favorite one is Thor being forced to cross-dress as Freyja to get back his famous hammer. The clever plan almost falls apart since Thor does things such as eating insane amounts of food at the wedding dinner. Which Loki is forced to explain away as the bride being so excited over the marriage, she fasted for 8 days.
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Apr 4, 2013 22:22
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Is Floki's and his chick's eyeliner also historically accurate and signifying something?
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Apr 4, 2013 22:49
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pigdog posted:Is Floki's and his chick's eyeliner also historically accurate and signifying something? It's accurate but unless you had a specific marking put on, it didn't mean anything in particular, as far as we can reconstruct anyway. Viking men (and women) just liked makeup. Fun fact, it was not uncommon to get eyeliner tattooed on.
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Apr 4, 2013 23:21
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HenessyHero posted:It's accurate but unless you had a specific marking put on, it didn't mean anything in particular, as far as we can reconstruct anyway. Viking men (and women) just liked makeup. Fun fact, it was not uncommon to get eyeliner tattooed on. Yeah it's pretty hilarious how on closer inspection they defy the barbarian stereotype by washing weekly, having a comb as part of the standard going on a raid gear and also worrying about fashionable hairstyles.
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Apr 4, 2013 23:29
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Equester posted:As a farmer you would most likely worship Frey, Freyas brother who was the god of farming, animal husbandry, male fertility and so on. Equester posted:Most likely, like with Greek and Roman religion, a lot of local gods was slowly absorbed into a larger shared Pantheon. There is some redundancy in the Norse pantheon, and the slow absorption of neighboring gods is a likely cause. Freya and Frigg(a) are remarkably similar. Frigga is Odins wife, and Freya is married to "Odr", who is basically a proto-Odin. There is even etymological evidence for Odr being Odin, as "Odin" literally means "The Odr dude". It is almost like someone took Odr, added some new attributes and renamed him Odin, but then failed to delete Odr from the pantheon. Some have interpreted Odins' thirst for knowledge and usage of seidr (female magic) and shamanism as evidence for an origin outside of the pantheon. Like he was a carry-over from an earlier religion, but was kept on the roster for nostalgic reasons. That could explain why he is considered "The Allfather", since he is literally a god from an earlier generation. Equester posted:Later contact with Christians might also have given rise to the tradition of wearing a Mjölner (thors hammer) amulet, to seperate you from the Christians with their cross.
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Apr 5, 2013 00:41
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Random question, but isn't it kind of dangerous to send Floki to challenge the Jarl to a 1v1? Like what is to stop him from just capturing Floki / deducing that Ragnar is probably chilling at Floki's place? The Jarl seems to be having a crisis of faith anyways, so the whole "tell him he won't get into Valhalla" thing seems like a precarious gamble to wager on. edit: Also, any book recommendations on learning more about the Viking pantheon? I've read a couple translated sagas and have a passing knowledge of the more common deities and legends, but it's a very interesting topic and I'm not sure which sources are my best bet for further reading. Honey Badger fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Apr 5, 2013 |
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Apr 5, 2013 02:20
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Honey Badger posted:Random question, but isn't it kind of dangerous to send Floki to challenge the Jarl to a 1v1? Like what is to stop him from just capturing Floki / deducing that Ragnar is probably chilling at Floki's place? The Jarl seems to be having a crisis of faith anyways, so the whole "tell him he won't get into Valhalla" thing seems like a precarious gamble to wager on. Floki isn't the type of guy to tell the Earl about Ragnar's challenge in private. It's just too bad that his daughter's wedding is already over, because that seems like it would have been the type of meeting to pop the challenge that would have Floki laughing all the way to town. Everything about the challenge seems to be planned to be insulting enough that the Earl has no choice to accept to maintain his honor while not being so insulting that he could get away with sending a kill crew to Floki's love shack.
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Apr 5, 2013 02:50
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If floki is anything like loki. He shall find a way.
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Apr 5, 2013 11:02
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I have only one complaint and that is loving fjords in denmark 
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Apr 5, 2013 14:23
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Affi posted:I have only one complaint and that is loving fjords in denmark Seriously, it's pretty jarring. On the other hand it looks great, so I don't really care. Where was it filmed?
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Apr 5, 2013 15:15
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Admiral Goodenough posted:Seriously, it's pretty jarring. On the other hand it looks great, so I don't really care. Where was it filmed? I think someone earlier said Canada. Since I'm an American who was never taught jackshit about geography, it doesn't bother me, but I'm sure if I lived in one of those countries this is meant to portray, I'd be annoyed, too.
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Apr 5, 2013 15:31
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A good portion of the show was filmed in the Wicklow mountains of Ireland, I believe. Here's a source: http://visitwicklow.ie/attractions/county-wicklow-the-hollywood-of-europe/
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Apr 5, 2013 15:37
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Colonial Air Force posted:I think someone earlier said Canada. It was filmed in Ireland, but with establishing shots taken in "Northern Europe", whatever that means. Edit: Beaten.
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Apr 5, 2013 15:38
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Shade2142 posted:If floki is anything like loki. He shall find a way. He's really loki-esque in many ways such as his wild behavior and also how he turned the beach showdown into a bloodbath.
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Apr 5, 2013 15:43
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Affi posted:I have only one complaint and that is loving fjords in denmark It's funny, because my friend and I constantly joke about the show being set in Hobro near Mariager Fjord, since it's pretty much the only place in Denmark that resembles the location on the show. The difference, of course, being that there are no mountains in Denmark. I gather the show must be set somewhere on Zealand with the constant references to Kattegat and the Swedish lord's mention of his journey being a "hard crossing". Which is kind of suspect since Øresund isn't exactly the loving North Sea.
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Apr 5, 2013 15:44
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Great news: Vikings renewed for a 10 episode season http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2013/04/05/vikings-renewed-for-10-episode-season-2-by-history/176744/ 
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Apr 5, 2013 19:11
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Sweet! I was worried, to be honest, because you never know with History.
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Apr 5, 2013 19:24
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Expected, yet still awesome news.
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Apr 5, 2013 19:38
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Colonial Air Force posted:Sweet! Well you don't want to a unemployed Floki running around and causing chaos.
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Apr 5, 2013 23:08
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Regarding Spartacus, its really dumb how the Romans never even think to fight in formation and just run around getting slaughtered like turkeys while we we get a 5 second slow motion of Crixus jumping in the air for no reason whatsoever. The first two seasons had much more visceral and emotional battles as it was 1v1, 2v2 etc most of the time. What I'm trying to say, Vikings deserves real props for the last two episodes. Both battles were more interesting and entertaining than anything Spartacus has given us this season.
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Apr 5, 2013 23:29
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Well, keep in mind that Spartacus only uses as much history as is necessary to hang up the blood and tits. If there's a conflict between  and   , guess which one wins; especially this season which the producer has acknowledged for going "gently caress it, we're doubling down on the awesome since it's the finale". Which really makes Vikings all the more impressive, it's a rare as hell case of a cable series reversing course from an established trend and doing something more like their brand, than going more lowbrow to catch as many viewers as possible and drat the quality and relevance.
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Apr 6, 2013 01:51
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Space Pussy posted:Regarding Spartacus, its really dumb how the Romans never even think to fight in formation and just run around getting slaughtered like turkeys while we we get a 5 second slow motion of Crixus jumping in the air for no reason whatsoever. The first two seasons had much more visceral and emotional battles as it was 1v1, 2v2 etc most of the time. And when they do fight in formation a single man can turn them into headless chickens (see Spartacus crashing into a Roman shield wall without getting scratch). It seems the farther back we go in time, the more creative producers get. 300 occurs several hundred years before the third servile war and Xerxes has monster slaves. Rewind a little more and we have scenes of cavemen fighting dinosaurs  Space Pussy posted:What I'm trying to say, Vikings deserves real props for the last two episodes. Both battles were more interesting and entertaining than anything Spartacus has given us this season. The choreography in the last episode was awesome. It just felt so quick and realistic. Like when I played the first Rainbow 6 after so many Doom clones.
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Apr 6, 2013 02:24
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Katheryn Winnick on the late late show. Goddamn, she is stunning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8GiEfRO6pU
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Apr 6, 2013 21:58
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As she came onto stage I was like. Oh man, what a great smile! Then, oh oh, what a great rack! Oh what a great butt! Oh, and the legs! Then I realized that she is just absolutely fantastic 
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Apr 6, 2013 22:00
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Colonial Air Force posted:I think someone earlier said Canada. It could easily pass for western/south western Norway, which I suppose is "close enough" since there were Vikings there as well (just not the particular historical persons the show portrays).
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Apr 6, 2013 22:07
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Conquistador posted:As she came onto stage I was like. Oh man, what a great smile! Then, oh oh, what a great rack! Oh what a great butt! Oh, and the legs! Then realize that she is closer to 40 than 30, unbelievable.
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Apr 6, 2013 22:09
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40 is the new 30! 300, at least, has the excuse that's it's taken directly from a comic book, and the comic is supposed to be an over-the-top retelling by the lone survivor.
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Apr 7, 2013 16:23
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