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Baronjutter posted:I see this a lot in very right-wing circles. "China knows how to get things done" "China's united leadership lets them make successful long term plans while we bicker and stagnate" "China has... plans". It's this mix of admiration and fear. China is going to conquer the world because it has strong leaders while the west will fall because we waste time on things like gay-rights or feminism or basic workplace safety standards. They've also bought into the Chinese government's facade of a united all-known leadership. Everything they do is because of some grand world-domination plan, they are a united hive mind we could never understand. This is pretty much the attitude that the West has held (PARTICULARLY the anglosphere) every time there's some sort of ascendant group. Be it the Germans/French/Japanese/Koreans/Chinese/Russians. "They're getting poo poo done while we're bickering about all this social, liberal stuff! They're going to overtake us!" Hasn't happened yet, and personally I'm not convinced it'll come anywhere close to happening for a few centuries.
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Apr 10, 2013 04:52
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What you have to understand is that it's China's "turn". Just because the West isn't winning the game of history any more, it doesn't mean it gets to cry foul about the complex teleological rules which determine the order of play. No siree. Taken with a pinch of salt, I do think that there is something to the idea that China treats alot of things, from foreign policy to overseas economic investment, as a zero sum game which they intend to win. And they do play hard. Xi Jinping just made a speech about levelling the playing field for foriegn companies in China, which is interesting considering the state media's recent poo poo-on-Apple campaign (don't get me wrong, I would love to see less of Apple). Whether that's going to produce anything meaningful is questionable. I can't see them lifting foreign ownership restrictions anytime soon. If the economy continues to slow I think the natural reaction is going to be to build walls (  ) and seek to run a Chinese-economy-for-China to an even greater extend than is already the case. I don't think Xi is a strong enough leader to actually do what he claimed and keep liberalising the economy during a period of cooling.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:04
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He certainly isn't nearly strong enough to pull through on his promises to stem corruption and luxury - It's inherent in the same system that rubber stamped him in to begin with.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:20
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GuestBob posted:What you have to understand is that it's China's "turn". Just because the West isn't winning the game of history any more, it doesn't mean it gets to cry foul about the complex teleological rules which determine the order of play. No siree. I'm not sure what you mean by "winning the game of history" or if you're just being sarcastic. I can't see China sustaining infinite growth and the game is stacked against them by virtue of both US dominated globalization and the geographical and geopolitical realities of China's position. I'm of the opinion that we're far more likely to see a Chinese market crash in the next couple decades than the Chinese overtaking the US economically.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:30
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Fojar38 posted:This is pretty much the attitude that the West has held (PARTICULARLY the anglosphere) every time there's some sort of ascendant group. Be it the Germans/French/Japanese/Koreans/Chinese/Russians. Ugh, why don't you just give us everything we want so that we can do things.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:34
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Maybe you guys need to not hang out with BNP members/literal Nazis so much because I've never heard of any conservative espouse such a view? Even relatively milquetoast/limited government interventions in the market like the GM/Chrysler bailouts left most American conservatives/republicans agog.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:56
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Given that modern American conservatism (at least the Republican party) prides itself on ignorance and just forced the former ambassador to China our of their party, I would assume that the Republican party knows basically nothing about China and isn't likely to change soon. So we're probably safe in not listening to their opinions about China.
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Apr 10, 2013 06:31
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Get a Sodahead account, put your location as China, and start posting. You will learn all that the typical Republican knows about China. (IE: nothing past Mao except Tiananmen Square)
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Apr 10, 2013 06:55
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VideoTapir posted:Get a Sodahead account, put your location as China, and start posting. You will learn all that the typical Republican knows about China. (IE: nothing past Mao except Tiananmen Square) This just isn't a Republican thing though. Mention China and most of the people on the street will probably bring up imagery of mao suits, rice hats, and the great wall. People in the U.S. generally don't know poo poo about Asia, period.
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Apr 10, 2013 07:43
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Fojar38 posted:This is pretty much the attitude that the West has held (PARTICULARLY the anglosphere) every time there's some sort of ascendant group. Be it the Germans/French/Japanese/Koreans/Chinese/Russians. One of my favorite Tim Kreider comics and blurbs is this one about how western media views the Chinese government. Time Kreider posted:Roger Cohen writes: "I believe the rise of China is unstoppable.” (In a recent column contrasting China’s growing confidence on the global arena with American’s confused and antiquated foreign policy, Cohen related an exchange he had over the issue of Iran with the Chinese Foreign Ministry, praising the “clearly written” response he received. I’m sure it’s very cool to have inside contacts among such high-ranking fascists, but it seems never to have occurred to Cohen that the ministry of a totalitarian state might be anything other than 100% forthright in communiqués with a foreign journalist.) It all reminds me of the dire, fatalistic rhetoric we heard twenty years ago about the equally inevitable ascendancy of Japan, which by the way whatever happened to that? What it really sounds like is nothing so much as Springfield anchorman Kent Brockman’s premature reaction to what he believed was an alien invasion: “I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.” For anyone who didn't pay attention during the mid-nineties in America, that Japan fearmongering was all over the place and whenever I'm watching some early seasons of The Simpsons of Law & Order I can't help but wonder "ahaha yeah, what did happen to all this Japanese ascendancy poo poo"
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Apr 10, 2013 07:47
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Modus Operandi posted:This just isn't a Republican thing though. Mention China and most of the people on the street will probably bring up imagery of mao suits, rice hats, and the great wall. People in the U.S. generally don't know poo poo about Asia, period. This is very true. I was dumbfounded when talking to my liberal, generally informed family two months ago about the possibility of my Chinese girlfriend coming with me next year to visit the US. All of them thought that in order to come to the US, she would have to convince the Chinese government of her ideological purity and good standing in order to be granted a permit to leave China on a vacation. Even my aunt, who has Chinese coworkers and friends and who has taken several recent business trips to Beijing, thought this.
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Apr 10, 2013 07:56
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Thompsons posted:For anyone who didn't pay attention during the mid-nineties in America, that Japan fearmongering was all over the place and whenever I'm watching some early seasons of The Simpsons of Law & Order I can't help but wonder "ahaha yeah, what did happen to all this Japanese ascendancy poo poo" ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 07:58
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MeramJert posted:All of them thought that in order to come to the US, she would have to convince the Chinese government of her ideological purity and good standing in order to be granted a permit to leave China on a vacation. To be fair Chinese citizens do need an exit visa to leave China, and they are routinely denied to liberal activists.
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Apr 10, 2013 09:10
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Arglebargle III posted:To be fair Chinese citizens do need an exit visa to leave China, and they are routinely denied to liberal activists. Is this actually true? I've traveled abroad with my girlfriend before and all she had was her passport and entry visa to our destination. I mean the part about being required to have an exit visa (I know that some people are denied at the border). Is a passport shortcut around that or something? fart simpson fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 09:31
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MeramJert posted:Even my aunt, who has Chinese coworkers and friends and who has taken several recent business trips to Beijing, thought this. That reminds me of Deng Xiaopings when he was told that to gain favoured trading status, China had to allow free emigration. He had a hearty laugh then asked, "How many do you want? Will 10 million be enough?"
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Apr 10, 2013 09:31
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MeramJert posted:Is this actually true? I've traveled abroad with my girlfriend before and all she had was her passport and entry visa to our destination. You don't remember Wonton? She had her visa denied 3 times at the US consulate. Traveling for mainlanders is weird. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's odd. It really depends on who your visa officer was and if you have a valid reason for returning to US. A goon in the china wechat is hosting an illegal immigrant. She could obtain papers to the US because she hasn't graduated from college and the state department thinks that she will return home and finish her degree. Nope, turns out to be some waitress in a Japanese restaurant  *** Whoops guess I was talking more about the foreign embassies having suspicions on the Chinese passport. Mainland Chinese do get visa free travel to Iran and Cuba！ Chinese government nowadays don't really restrict you on traveling abroad (unless you are a politically sensitive figure like that Nobel Prize guy) caberham fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 09:37
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But was Wonton denied by the Chinese side or the American side?
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Apr 10, 2013 09:41
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Riso posted:That reminds me of Deng Xiaopings when he was told that to gain favoured trading status, China had to allow free emigration. I really want a citation for this.
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Apr 10, 2013 09:56
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Looks like I was wrong. Somebody told me recently about getting their exit permits from China but it must have been a problem in translation. I think they were using English and might not have got it quite wrong. Turns out you don't need an exit visa, although certain people will be stopped at the border if they try to leave without getting permission for "national security" reasons. As usual in China, murky and arbitrary rules enforced selectively.
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Apr 10, 2013 10:08
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Arglebargle III posted:Looks like I was wrong. Somebody told me recently about getting their exit permits from China but it must have been a problem in translation. I think they were using English and might not have got it quite wrong. Well that's one of the things about China, isn't it? Despite the fact that I know a bunch of international traveler Chinese citizens and I've traveled abroad with them and I'd been told that they don't need an exit visa, I'm still open to the possibility that I'm somehow wrong.
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Apr 10, 2013 10:52
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I've heard it can be really hard for Chinese people to get a passport. That's basically the same thing.
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Apr 10, 2013 12:10
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I've met Chinese people who were rural migrants with about 0 guanxi who got passports, so it must not be THAT hard. Actually Communist party members do have to apply to go abroad, or somehow record that they are going abroad, but I don't know too much about the inner workings of that. The US State Department likes US citizens to register their residence abroad, but it's not required. China seems to have a non-optional version of that. Lots of countries do though. Extremely difficult for Chinese to get a visitor visa to the USA if they don't have strong connections to China. The US assumes everyone wants to immigrate there. So if you are a young person, unmarried, no real estate, no children, it will be hard to get a tourist visa.
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Apr 10, 2013 12:50
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hitension posted:I've met Chinese people who were rural migrants with about 0 guanxi who got passports, so it must not be THAT hard. This is pretty usual policy for communist states; they keep the party members on a shorter leash than the average person. I know it sounds crazy but it's true. Just look at the history of communist states: serious political resistance/reform comes from inside the party more often than not. The US assumes everyone wants to emigrate there because everyone does want to emigrate there.
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Apr 10, 2013 13:19
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The Shanghai consulate is at 99% approval and the rest are 85%+. It's not that hard to get to the US as a Chinese citizen anymore if you don't have a criminal record.
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Apr 10, 2013 13:24
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Arakan posted:The Shanghai consulate is at 99% approval and the rest are 85%+. It's not that hard to get to the US as a Chinese citizen anymore if you don't have a criminal record. Citation majorly needed. 99% is more than Hong Kong, so that's shocking to me.
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Apr 10, 2013 14:27
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There is no exit visa but ordinary Chinese do not generally have passports as a matter of course and getting one can be a bit of a hassle depending on where you live/hukou, because they are issued by regional entry/exit bureaus and you need an actual reason for leaving,verification from your work unit, and sundry other hoops. If you are a respectable state employee with a Beijing hukou then it's not too bad, if you are a Uygur or a Tibetan, well first you probably have to travel to the provincial capital at least to put in the application, and well don't hold your breath.
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Apr 10, 2013 14:34
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From what I heard from my GF it's not that hard to get a passport, it just takes a long time (~1 month).
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Apr 10, 2013 14:35
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Bloodnose posted:Citation majorly needed. 99% is more than Hong Kong, so that's shocking to me. I don't have any citations. I don't even know if they publish this info anywhere, I'm sure they do but I'm too lazy to look. I get my statistics straight from the FSO's/adjudicators doing visas at the consulates, and they get theirs from totaling how many visas they approve/deny. The interview is the actual part that matters and it's extremely subjective, because any documents showing bank records or property ownership or whatever will look the same whether they are fake or real, so these kinds of "ties to China" don't actually matter much. Shanghai is so high because it's just Shanghai people applying there for the most part. Who the gently caress would want to live in America when you live in Shanghai? edit: Approving a much higher % of visas is a recent thing too, within the last year or two I guess, around when the first class of adjudicators started Arakan fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 15:16
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It took me more than a month to get my American passport. That doesn't sound all that long to me.
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Apr 10, 2013 15:27
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Arakan posted:I don't have any citations. I don't even know if they publish this info anywhere, I'm sure they do but I'm too lazy to look. I get my statistics straight from the FSO's/adjudicators doing visas at the consulates, and they get theirs from totaling how many visas they approve/deny. The interview is the actual part that matters and it's extremely subjective, because any documents showing bank records or property ownership or whatever will look the same whether they are fake or real, so these kinds of "ties to China" don't actually matter much. The part where this sounds weird is I had adjudicator training (I recounted my CALNA story earlier in this thread). Everything I learned there suggests that the overwhelming majority of Chinese, and almost 100% of those under 30/35, would be unceremoniously denied. They demand huge amounts of cash in addition to concrete ties back to China, which usually means property. I guess all Shanghaiers have huge buckets of cash maybe  Sounds like something a Henan peasant would think.
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Apr 10, 2013 15:40
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Arakan posted:I don't have any citations. I don't even know if they publish this info anywhere, I'm sure they do but I'm too lazy to look. I get my statistics straight from the FSO's/adjudicators doing visas at the consulates, and they get theirs from totaling how many visas they approve/deny. The interview is the actual part that matters and it's extremely subjective, because any documents showing bank records or property ownership or whatever will look the same whether they are fake or real, so these kinds of "ties to China" don't actually matter much. It's been super-long since I applied for a travel document of any sort, but I could have sworn Shanghai served the populous coastal parts of Zhejiang as well. I'm surprised at the 99% rate too because there's a lot of people in Zhejiang, although the province itself is quite affluent so I can see the approval rate being higher than normal, but not 99%-wise. If it's a recent thing, that's pretty cool. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
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Apr 10, 2013 15:43
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But the point is how can they prove that the cash or property is real? A fake bank statement is going to look the same as a real one. That's why the interview is all that really matters now, I don't know if it was different in the past.
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Apr 10, 2013 15:52
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Arakan posted:But the point is how can they prove that the cash or property is real? A fake bank statement is going to look the same as a real one. That's why the interview is all that really matters now, I don't know if it was different in the past. Arakan posted:I don't have any citations. I don't even know if they publish this info anywhere, I'm sure they do but I'm too lazy to look. I get my statistics straight from the FSO's/adjudicators doing visas at the consulates, and they get theirs from totaling how many visas they approve/deny. The interview is the actual part that matters and it's extremely subjective, because any documents showing bank records or property ownership or whatever will look the same whether they are fake or real, so these kinds of "ties to China" don't actually matter much. Soy Division fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 15:58
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Yeah somehow I highly doubt they would tell you detailed statistics related to their work.
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Apr 10, 2013 16:15
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Gail Wynand posted:I think you actually need a letter from the bank to go with the statement. So they could just call up the dude who signed the letter. Yea everything is covered in the package you can buy for 20-30k USD. It includes coaching for the interview too. I mean the Chinese government won't even allow the consulates to access court records for people applying who have committed crimes in the past, they don't exactly have a ton of resources at their disposal to figure out what's real and what's fake. Gail Wynand posted:Just because your FSO buddy says "dude, yeah, we approve like 99% of people these days" over beers doesn't mean that's the actual stat. Oh for sure, it's definitely the highest of all the consulates though because of the regions they are responsible for (majority native Shanghai applicants) and I'd be surprised if it was much lower than that. Much easier to approve people when you don't have mass Henan people trying to illegally emigrate through your jurisdiction like Beijing. My point wasn't to say here's a concrete statistic, it was more to say hey it's not really hard for mainland Chinese people to get visas to America anymore, because for some reason everyone still thinks it's hard. Not sure why approval rates would be a secret? I've seen them online somewhere awhile back I just don't remember where.
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Apr 10, 2013 16:21
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hitension posted:Yeah somehow I highly doubt they would tell you detailed statistics related to their work. It literally requires a Top Secret security clearance to be a CALNA. Even casually mentioning anything about work will get you drawn-and-quartered if the chain of command found out about it. Arakan posted:Oh for sure, it's definitely the highest of all the consulates though because of the regions they are responsible for (majority native Shanghai applicants) and I'd be surprised if it was much lower than that. Much easier to approve people when you don't have mass Henan people trying to illegally emigrate through your jurisdiction like Beijing. My point wasn't to say here's a concrete statistic, it was more to say hey it's not really hard for mainland Chinese people to get visas to America anymore, because for some reason everyone still thinks it's hard. Anecdotal evidence and all, but there's a Hong Kong-based mainlander goon who has a master's degree, is enrolled in a course for another, works full-time as a teacher at an international school in Hong Kong, comes from an affluent family, has an urban hukou and is all around awesome and was denied. That was within the last six months. Maybe the consulate in Shanghai is just that much cooler. Maybe it is a big deal that she can speak perfect English. Maybe anecdotal evidence sucks. But I wouldn't say stuff like this and get goons excited that their Chinese SO's can hop on a jet to the US with them tomorrow. Deep State of Mind fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 16:22
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Although I expect most goons with Chinese significant others already know they shouldn't expect a 99% chance of approval on the visa.
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Apr 10, 2013 16:32
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Here's some links I guess http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2011/10/176049.htm quote:During the past five years, visa issuances have increased 124 percent in China. In fiscal year 2011, consular officers processed more than one million visas in China, an increase of more than 35 percent over last year. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2011/11/176781.htm quote:In fact, we issue visas to nearly 90 percent of all Chinese applicants who apply. These are both from 2011, it's higher now.
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Apr 10, 2013 16:33
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flatbus posted:It's been super-long since I applied for a travel document of any sort, but I could have sworn Shanghai served the populous coastal parts of Zhejiang as well. 
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Apr 10, 2013 16:34
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Arakan posted:Here's some links I guess That's baffling. My best guess is that they manage to discourage most people who would be denied before they are actually considered 'applicants who apply'.
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Apr 10, 2013 16:37
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