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kastein posted:You've got everything on the primary right, as far as I can tell.  Ohm between the two blue output wires: ~20 Ohm between the two green output wires: ~5 Ohm between the two brown and one red (orange): 5-7 Is that what you meant, and is the resistance supposed to be so low? What's the next step then - I still can't measure any voltage on any of the output pins.
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Apr 11, 2013 22:46
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The resistance will depend on the number of windings (which determines the voltage) and the thickness of the wire used for that winding (which determines the amount of current that winding can supply), so you can't really depend on that for any sort of info. You SHOULD see voltage across the blue wires when it is on, and voltage across the green wires, also voltage across the orange/brown wires. If you don't, you may have an issue.
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Apr 11, 2013 22:49
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I guess the thing is just bust. Will I need to replicate the voltages and ampere exactly in a replacement if I want to make it work? Can I somehow homebrew the voltages/amp outputs I need from a transformer with different outputs, or is that impossible?
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Apr 11, 2013 22:52
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Pilsner posted:I guess the thing is just bust. There's a guy over in the electronics thread winding his own small mains transformer right now. Since it's the topic du jour, I'm sure you could get quality responses quickly. Rewinding transformers is pretty easy, just somewhat time consuming. That would also be the thread to ask about generating your small voltages. If everything gets rectified right after this stage, you may be able to build a small power supply delivering the correct voltages and bypass half of the next board in the box.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:07
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The low voltage winding is PROBABLY for the filaments/cathode in the vacuum fluorescent display I see on the front panel of that thing. The center tap is likely grounded, the two orange wires running to the ends of the filament. Normally filaments on VFDs take around 1 volt but they're almost always run by a center tapped low voltage transformer winding, so I'm not sure what other winding would be used for it.
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Apr 12, 2013 03:00
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You can do it, but it would probably not be worth your time.
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Apr 13, 2013 04:56
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Okay, slowly moving forward with some shop upgrades. I think I've decided what I want to do, but am looking for some advice on a couple specifics. e: see bottom 1) I'm looking at some fill calculators, and I think if I want to run 10AWG in the same conduit, I'll need to upgrade to 3/4"? 2) The handy box where it switches from romex to THHN for each of these circuits is 1-gang, do I need to use a bigger one once I add the 10AWG? 3) For my outlet (pictured below in its current state), can I just use a 2-gang box and have the 30A outlet and the 20A outlet share a receptacle? If not, how far does the new outlet need to be from the old outlet? 4) Anything else you can think of? The outlet as it currently stands. Ideally, that'd just be a 2-gang box with side-by-side 20A/30A outlets:  e: I think I filled this out right?  ee: Alternate plan: I'm pretty sure I can wire my tablesaw up to take 220 (subsequently confirmed), in which case I could rip out the 120V 20A circuit altogether (which really should have been 30A anyhow) and replace it with one 220V 15A circuit which would be used by both my saws. Is this a better plan? It's in my garage, which I believe means everything needs to be gfci protected, what happens in that case with the 220? Also, could I just use the existing 12AWG wires without running anything new? eee: Okay, I like this 220 idea a lot more. From the fill calculator, it looks like I can even stick with the 1/2" conduit, since I wouldn't need a whole extra run of 10AWG. What's the deal with 3-conductor vs. 4-conductor? Does code currently require that 4th (ground?) conductor? If not, I'm right in my understanding that I can literally just rewire the circuit at the breaker and the outlet (and install a 220 outlet) and call it a day? That'd be hella sweet. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 15:26
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Bad Munki posted:e: I think I filled this out right? First off your existing conduit is EMT, not RMC. Second, you only have to count ground once, as those 3 separate circuits can all share a ground. For running different amperage circuits in parallel however, they would all need to share the largest ground. In other words, 2 of 14#, 2 of 12# and 3 of 10#. If it really comes down to cable fill and the EMT is in good condition with tight connections, you could use that as the ground instead. Bad Munki posted:Is this a better plan? It's in my garage, which I believe means everything needs to be gfci protected, what happens in that case with the 220? Also, could I just use the existing 12AWG wires without running anything new? There are no 240V GFCIs. Reusing cable is always an option if it's in good condition and is at least as large as necessary for its new amperage. Bad Munki posted:What's the deal with 3-conductor vs. 4-conductor? Does code currently require that 4th (ground?) conductor? If not, I'm right in my understanding that I can literally just rewire the circuit at the breaker and the outlet (and install a 220 outlet) and call it a day? That'd be hella sweet. 3-conductor in the past meant hot-hot-neutral for major appliances and hot-hot-ground for others. 4-conductor is hot-hot-neutral-ground. You might be able to repurpose your neutral wire if your saws have no features that would need 120v (lights, fans, etc) that would subsequently require a neutral. If there aren't any, you could just throw in a new 2-pole breaker, tape off the white wire with black tape to show it's been repurposed, slap in some new NEMA 6 outlets, wire up some new NEMA 6 cords and call it a day. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 18:30
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Well, the tablesaw, it's old as poo poo and is literally JUST the motor, I'm sure that doesn't need the 4th conductor. The bandsaw I haven't ordered yet (waiting to figure all this out first before I drop a grand on it) so I'll probably have to call and ask them. e: Looked up the manual for the thing (available here) and it looks like yeah, it's just the 3-conductor. If it has any lights on it or anything (I don't believe it does) there must be an internal transformer. Woo! This is gonna be SOOOOO much easier than I was expecting. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 18:38
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Bad Munki posted:This is gonna be SOOOOO much easier than I was expecting. What happens when you assume??? I hope that your breaker box has another slot for a 2-pole and enough wire slack to move around other breakers if necessary. Don't forget to tape up the white wire at the panel and at each box!
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Apr 18, 2013 19:00
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Yeah, I still have another slot in the panel right below the current 20A GFCI breaker that will be getting booted for this. Should have plenty of slack in there as well. What's the proper way to tape the white wire so that it's obvious? Wrap a little black tape around just that, or around both, or what? Should I also tape the white wire in the handy box where I switch from romex to thhn? I just want it to look as good as if a licensed electrician had done it. 
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Apr 18, 2013 19:31
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Bad Munki posted:Yeah, I still have another slot in the panel right below the current 20A GFCI breaker that will be getting booted for this. Should have plenty of slack in there as well. You got the right idea: tape the white wire anywhere on that circuit where it's no longer used as a neutral. There's no specification as to how much tape to use, just that it must be present. Basically, just make it obvious to anyone who would work on that circuit in the future. If you want to tape the white all the way back to the outer sheath, go for it. You do need to untwist and tape each white individually then put them back together. Otherwise if you just tape over several neutrals bundled together, it looks like someone tried to hold on a loose wire nut instead.
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Apr 18, 2013 20:26
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Gotcha, will do. Thanks for the help. Now I just need to find a dual-outlet 6-15. Tried a couple places but so far no luck, but I have yet to hit up HD/Lowes.
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Apr 18, 2013 20:29
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Best place is going to be an electrical supplier.
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Apr 18, 2013 21:20
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Not sure why I didn't think to google that. Found a place that looks excellent right away, gonna stop there tomorrow, "a full-line electrical distributor for all industrial, commercial, institutional and residential applications." Cheers!
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Apr 18, 2013 23:47
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Bad Munki posted:Not sure why I didn't think to google that. Found a place that looks excellent right away, gonna stop there tomorrow, "a full-line electrical distributor for all industrial, commercial, institutional and residential applications." Cheers! If they're anything like most supply houses, the mouth-breather behind the counter only knows how to get the parts you know specifically by specific nomenclature. "I need a thing you can plug two of these things into" will typically get you NOWHERE. "I want a duplex NEMA 6-30R for surface mounting in a 4 square box and a RS cover that fits it" may get you closer.
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Apr 19, 2013 00:34
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Yeah, they conveniently have charts and all kinds of useful stuff on their website, I pretty much know exactly what I need at this point. 6-15P should do the trick, at least according to the manual for the saw. So, I just want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding this here: I have 3-conductor 12AWG romex in place that I'm hoping to repurpose for this. I'm going to use both the white and the black lines for hot-hot, one on each of the hot poles on a 2-pole 240v breaker, and the old ground line is going to be my new neutral? Because that old ground line doesn't have its own insulation in the romex part of the circuit, aside from being in the sheath and wrapped in brown paper, is that okay?  At least in the conduit portion, it's green-insulated. Otherwise, I guess I could run new romex (only about 30') and feed a red thhn through the conduit, but if I don't have to, I'd sure rather not. If it matters, the existing 20A circuit is very new, like less than 6 months, I installed it before realizing I could have saved myself an assload of trouble by just going 220 right off the bat.Sorry if I'm being a bit  -y here, I just want everything to be right.
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Apr 19, 2013 00:43
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Bad Munki posted:Yeah, they conveniently have charts and all kinds of useful stuff on their website, I pretty much know exactly what I need at this point. 6-15P should do the trick, at least according to the manual for the saw. Well, it's good you asked. You have two hots and NO neutral now. Hot, hot, and ground. You're going to mark the white wire in your romex "in a distinctive fashion" (with some tape). So you're installing a 15A breaker, 2x 15A receptacle (or a duplex). This circuit will have no neutral conductor in it. The bare wire goes to your ground conductor on your receptacles, etc, and to the ground bar in your panel. Now, if this is your main panel, it will have a bond between the neutral and ground inside it, but don't think that that third conductor in the romex is the neutral. It should never have current on it; it's just a low-impedance path for ground faults.
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Apr 19, 2013 01:27
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Bad Munki posted:I'm going to use both the white and the black lines for hot-hot, one on each of the hot poles on a 2-pole 240v breaker, and the old ground line is going to be my new neutral? No, the ground will remain ground and is there for safety (and sometimes shielding). With 240V the 2 phases are the opposite of one another, so think of them as each phase acts as the other's "neutral" in a sense. Whenever one phase is positive, the other is negative and vice versa. And you have hot-neutral-ground currently with your plain old branch circuit. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 01:44
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Ohhhh, okay, now it completely makes sense. The phase thing being what leads to 240 is what I was confused about and why I wasn't quite grasping what was going on. Okay, ONE last question: in order to get the opposite phase on each pole, don't I need to have a hot coming from each side of my breaker box? I mean, how does does that opposite-phase-ness appear, if not from the two mains coming into the box? I don't see how that would work with a 2-pole breaker if both hots are coming from the same rail. Thanks a ton for the help so far, this is making WAY more sense than before.
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Apr 19, 2013 02:51
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Bad Munki posted:Okay, ONE last question: in order to get the opposite phase on each pole, don't I need to have a hot coming from each side of my breaker box? Nope, not with a modern breaker panel anyway. Each phase is attached to its own busbar. The bad part about having "bar" in their names is that it implies that they are perfectly straight. They aren't. They're shaped more like combs laid flat whose tines fit in the gaps in the other comb without touching. That means that any two spots next together on the panel will be on different busbars, and thus on different phases. edit: I'm pretty sure that old Pushmatic 2-pole breakers were like that with one phase on either side of the box, but that's all that come to mind... kid sinister fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 03:29
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Groovy, very good to know. I now feel like I'm armed with the knowledge I need to not screw this up. Hopefully gonna get it taken care of first thing tomorrow, then I'll need to rewire my tablesaw real quick. Then it's just a waiting game for the bandsaw to get in (which I ordered today, whoop whoop.) I know I said it before but thanks again, all. It all makes sooooo much more sense and I really like having a better sense of understanding of the entire system going into a project.
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Apr 19, 2013 03:35
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Went to the supplier, they had exactly what I needed (although the receptacle is BROWN, EWW--but I don't care, I like my "weird" outlets to be a different color anyhow...but something cooler like orange or yellow would have been better), came home, wired everything up, and was literally done after about ten minutes work. Checked the voltage at the outlet, 239V, splendid! The only thing I did a little different was that somehow, I couldn't find my black e-tape, I don't know where it all went to, but I had red handy, so I used that. Is that okay? I have no problem going back and re-marking, but if red is fine, it's done, and I just didn't feel like going to the store just for some more black tape when I know I have some hidden away somewhere anyhow. Now I just need to re-wire my tablesaw and wait for my bandsaw to show up, should be here early next week.  e: Uhhhh, okay, so I overlooked one semi-critical detail  My tablesaw is old as dirt, and I had to replace the switch it uses because when I got it, the switch was just a little toggle mounted directly on the motor on the back of the saw. I grabbed one of these and wired it up with the saw, mounted it on the front, and it works great. Can I just snip the wall-side plug on this thing, replace it with a 6-15, and call it good, or do I need to get something that will switch both legs of the circuit? I assume it doesn't already, but I don't actually know. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 21:49
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Bad Munki posted:The only thing I did a little different was that somehow, I couldn't find my black e-tape, I don't know where it all went to, but I had red handy, so I used that. Is that okay? I have no problem going back and re-marking, but if red is fine, it's done, and I just didn't feel like going to the store just for some more black tape when I know I have some hidden away somewhere anyhow. Red tape is absolutely fine to mark a conductor. Proper 3 conductor romex is black/red/white. As for the switch, while you're not supposed to, the best way to do it would be to use the neutral as the switch-leg. If you use only one hot as the switch-leg, it will still run, albeit at around half speed.
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Apr 19, 2013 22:41
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Actually, I just answered the question myself: I opened the switch up to see what was going on inside, and it's actually switching both legs. I checked the resistance across each leg and they are exactly as one would expect: infinite resistance when off, and something negligible when on. Golden! e: Re-wired the saw for 240, wired it into the switch, swapped the plug, and everything worked perfectly, I dare say better than before. This is awesome! Can hardly wait to plug my bandsaw in when it gets here, too. Calling this project successfully completed! Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 22:49
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Good work Munki! Yeah, any 240V system you need to switch both legs simultaneously. Likewise if you have a 240V load, you cannot wire it to two separate single-pole breakers, you must connect it to a two-pole breaker. Likewise on three-phase systems systems with a three-phase load, you want a three-pole breaker that interrupts all three poles simultaneously. (I've seen four-pole breakers, for things like generator transfer switches where you want to isolate the neutral, as well as DC breaker applications where you run through multiple poles so you can break the DC easier.) kid sinister posted:No, the ground will remain ground and is there for safety (and sometimes shielding). With 240V the 2 phases are the opposite of one another, so think of them as each phase acts as the other's "neutral" in a sense. Whenever one phase is positive, the other is negative and vice versa. I saw a video where a guy wired up a switch for a ceiling fan in a bathroom with 2C+G Romex, and what he did was the neutral became a switched leg, and the ground (which he taped off white) became the new neutral. That's a BIG no-no. Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 03:34
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A quick once-over on wire colors: bare or green/yellow: ALWAYS ground. Do not use for anything else ever. white: ALWAYS neutral. If used as a hot, must be recolored as already discussed. blue: neutral in EU standard. An acceptable color for hot in the US... brown: hot in EU standard. An acceptable color for hot also in the US. Anything else: hot. Avoid using light grey as it is close enough to white to be confusing. Generally red will be a second hot, smoke alarm trip signal, a traveler in 3+ way light switch setups, or in some cases, a switched hot. I don't like the last one really, but I believe it's to code and parts of my house had that setup when I bought it. Blue, red, brown, yellow, orange (iirc) all have special meanings in 3 phase power distribution as color codes for specific hot phases, but in 120/240 are fair game. Personally, when I recolor a wire, I do it all the way from the end back to the cable sheath.
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Apr 20, 2013 04:23
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Three phase color codes (US typical): Black, red, blue (A, B, C) for 120/208V three phase, but it's also used on high-voltage systems (saw three 32kV lines incoming to a transformer primary where the phases were taped black, red, blue on the outermost jacket). Also common on 69/120V potential transformers. Brown, orange, yellow (A, B, C) for 277/480V. Neutral for 222/480 is grey. Red, yellow, blue (A, B, C) is a UK standard, I've seen some test equipment where it's the standard for A, B, and C voltage or 69/120V potential transformer connections. I personally like this color code the best, but it is not standard in the United States. If you have a three-phase delta system with a center-tapped neutral between two of the phases, the high or "wild" leg will be marked Other notes * As far as commercial and industrial buildings go, I believe that systems that are related to fire/life safety are always in red conduit and boxes so that they stand out. * For low voltage DC I've typically seen blue and blue with a white stripe * In some industrial cabinets you need to be very careful not to do things like mix neutral together or confuse power sources. I've seen cabinets that contained 24VDC, 120VAC from a central UPS, "dirty" 120V from a non-ups source, and 125VDC all within the same cabinet. Facilities sometimes have unique color codes for CTs, PTs, UPS/non-UPS, and DC sources. * This is also industrial/commercial, but occasionally systems and components use an "isolated ground" or an "instrument ground". This goes back to the same grounding point as all the other equipment (if you run it to a different ground point like an i-beam or large water pipe it can create current loops and nasty power quality problems) but is kept apart from other grounds. These grounds are usually marked and connected separately from the safety grounds. * Neutral wires must be treated with respect. If a fault opens up the neutral, the neutral wire can become live in single and three-phase systems. An open neutral voltage can be unpredictable because in single (Edison) and three-phase systems, that voltage is dependent on how balanced the loading is between the different phases. Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 21, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 05:00
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Per the NEC high legs are required to be marked orange.
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Apr 20, 2013 14:36
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So the 240V thing is working great. I've got another tool with a big-rear end motor on it, an ancient jointer. The plate on it lists both 120V and 240V amperage, so I know it can be wired for 240V. Thing is, I have no idea how. With my table saw, it had a wiring diagram for both voltages, which was good, because there are 8 wires coming out of that motor and the 120 vs. 240 configurations were quite different. For my jointer motor, though, there are only four wires, and I have no idea how to wire them up for 240. I don't have to use 240 on this tool, but if I got it, why not? The closest outlet will be 240 anyhow, so I might as well. Like I said, there are four wires. Two red, and two green. Currently wired for 120, they are connected to the hot/neutral in opposite pairs. That is, red+green->black, and red+green->white. Any ideas on what I should do for 240 on this thing? If it helps, this motor is a Wagner Electric Corporation model C1621 K2024 (googling didn't turn up anything other than some interesting history.) No year on the plate, but if it's like the saw I got with it, it'd be early-to-mid 1960s.
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Apr 21, 2013 04:54
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Bad Munki posted:So the 240V thing is working great. Ok, so your motor looks about like so: pre:~~~~~ ~~~~~ <- these are the coils in the motor | | | | They're actually wound on top of each other. R R G G edit: unless, of course, there are subtle markings that identify the wires. Little tags with "abcd" or "1234" or something. X1 X2 Y1 Y2.... Something. babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Apr 21, 2013 |
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Apr 21, 2013 05:40
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Sounds right to me - clarification, if it doesn't spin properly, swap the two green wires. Or swap the two red wires. Don't swap both though because you'll simply make it not spin properly again.
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Apr 21, 2013 06:35
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So I'm going to end up with red+green and red+green, meaning there's a chance it's already wired up properly, and if not, I just need to swap one color? Okay, I can do that.
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Apr 21, 2013 14:21
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New Project for me, wiring my welder. It's an AC arc welder, and the manual calls for 8ga wire if it's 50ft or less, and 6ga if it's over 50ft. The plan, surface mount the outlet in a box about 1' away from the panel, using 6ga wire. Purchase a 25 or 50ft 8/3 extension cord designed for outdoor use, and connect that to the pigtail in the back of the welder. 1. I assume I need to use a conduit from the panel to the outlet, correct? What size would be needed? 2. Is the connection to the pigtail from the 6ga solid to 8ga stranded can just be a properly sized wire nut?
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Apr 21, 2013 21:13
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Bad Munki posted:So I'm going to end up with red+green and red+green, meaning there's a chance it's already wired up properly, and if not, I just need to swap one color? Okay, I can do that. You're going to end up with white->red, red+green, green->black. Bad noise/heat/smoke, swap the reds. quote:New Project for me, wiring my welder. 40A, probably, so 2#8 THHN with a #10 ground. If you're only going a foot, you could probably get away with anything. My little calculator says all that will fit in a 1/2" PVC pipe, so yeah, anything. 50' of 8/3 cord, a male cord cap, and some wire nuts makes your connection to the welder.
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Apr 21, 2013 21:23
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:You're going to end up with white->red, red+green, green->black. Bad noise/heat/smoke, swap the reds. Oh oh oh, I see, so two of the wires will just be pig-tailed together and not go anywhere else. Sorry, reading comprehension.
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Apr 21, 2013 21:25
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I'm working on converting a vehicle to an EV and am looking for some sort of switch.. We have 2 plugs in the charging port, 120 or 240. Only one source will be plugged into the on-board vehicle charger at one time. However, the charger only has one input. We are looking for some sort of switch with 2 inputs and 1 output that can go between the charger and the grid power. I don't want to just parallel both charging cables since then when one is plugged in, the other will be live and it could be a potential safety issue. Any ideas on how to make this work?
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Apr 21, 2013 21:59
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Lt Moose posted:I'm working on converting a vehicle to an EV and am looking for some sort of switch.. We have 2 plugs in the charging port, 120 or 240. Only one source will be plugged into the on-board vehicle charger at one time. However, the charger only has one input. We are looking for some sort of switch with 2 inputs and 1 output that can go between the charger and the grid power. I don't want to just parallel both charging cables since then when one is plugged in, the other will be live and it could be a potential safety issue. Double-pole, double-throw switch, aka DPDT. The common goes to the charger, the legs each go to one of the charging ports. You could even get super-fancy and have DPCO. Double-pole, center off. It's the same thing, except with a position in the middle to disconnect all legs from each other. Here's the McMaster-Carr page for toggle switches. You're looking for # circuits = 2. Go crazy.
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Apr 21, 2013 22:06
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hemorrhage posted:Per the NEC high legs are required to be marked orange. Yeah, you're right! I thought it was purple! babyeatingpsychopath posted:Here's the McMaster-Carr page for toggle switches. You're looking for # circuits = 2. Go crazy. Will McMaster sell to individuals or are they only B2B? Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 21, 2013 |
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Apr 21, 2013 22:16
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Three-Phase posted:Yeah, you're right! I thought it was purple! Green, or green with a continuous yellow stripe: Ground White, gray, or any color with a continuous white or gray stripe: grounded conductor (neutral). Orange: High leg of 3 phase 4-wire delta system. Brown with continuous stripe (other than white, gray, or green): One conductor of isolated power system; connected to the terminal normally used for the grounded conductor. Orange with continuous stripe (other than white, gray, or green): Another conductor of isolated power systems Yellow with continuous stripe (other than white, gray, or green): Third conductor of isolated power system, if three-phase. That's it. Full stop. In general, that's all that's required. If you're doing normal stuff, your neutral is white or gray, and your ground is green. All other conductors can be whatever the hell color you want, can find, and can buy. There are certain conditions where you're required to do something a little different, but those really are the only required colors. Do a full-text search of the NEC if you don't believe me, and don't let anyone else tell you different. There are conventions. Black/red/blue for 120/208 systems. Brown/orange/yellow for 277/480. Pink/purple/tan for emergency. Fire alarm in red. Comms in green/blue. quote:Will McMaster sell to individuals or are they only B2B? They've got a website! McMaster-Carr is awesome. Grainger, too.
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Apr 22, 2013 15:01
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