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GAS CURES KIKES posted:
Heh. That's an awesome way of putting it, thanks. No. No, they do not.
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Apr 25, 2013 04:11
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Cerekk posted:
If the ship went inverted certain things would become broke in ways that cannot be fixed outside of drydock. It's hard to describe without going into actual details. But also yes if the boat ever had cause to go inverted things would already be very hosed.
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Apr 25, 2013 05:03
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GAS CURES KIKES posted:So how long do you have between going too fast and maneuvering too sharp and then loving up and going too far to recover from the dive? Is this like a split second thing that the control deck people are preventing at any given second, or would it be something that plays out slowly and requires waaaaaaay to much lunacy+idiocy to be allowed to actually happen? This depends on your speed & depth. If you are going flank speed and deep you can be hosed in 20-30 seconds. If you are going slow a slow event that plays out can still gently caress you however. For example ... I've posted this story before so here in a summarized version. We were doing deployment workup poo poo and farting around at PD. The OOD had ordered a backing bell and everyone in control forgot we were going backwards. We had a planes reversal (controls worked in the opposite direction) and we ended up doing a 56 degree down angle. I thought for sure we were headed right to the bottom but thankfully the Captain climbed into control from his stateroom (yes he had to CLIMB) and yelled at the CoW to blow the forward ballast tanks.
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Apr 25, 2013 05:11
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Shimazu I'm sure you understand why we don't talk reactorland stuff here. Old subs used to have twin screws, fairly small, side by side. Newer (American) boats are all one big screw out the boat's centerline. They can also put some serious, serious torque on that screw if you give it the beans. Think of the behavior of, say, a twin-engine Beechcraft vs a P-51 (a race one with clipped wings.) Think about how that souped-up P-51 is going to react to inadvertent strange angles of attack and what kind of action / response time is needed to recover it. Sort of how a race P-51 flies a few hundred feet off the deck, the sub only has a few hull lengths to move in the vertical before it is either crushed by sea pressure or broaches (which has other dangers.) You could estimate how long this would take, if you cared that much, using publicly available numbers.
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Apr 25, 2013 06:27
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I guess the reason the whole thing seems crazy to me is that in my head, it takes a long rear end time to dive to any appreciable depth. But now that I think about it, I have no idea how long it takes to dive to whatever depth or surface. So in my head I'm picturing the submarines moving very slowly. But then I look at the published speed numbers and.. yeah holy poo poo that's not slow at all. And it's loving UNDERWATER.
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Apr 25, 2013 06:41
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Sacrilage posted:anything that requires immediate split-second reflexes to save the ship have been extensively automated, computerized, and interlocked Never served on a first flight 688, have you?  ded posted:If the ship went inverted certain things would become broke in ways that cannot be fixed outside of drydock. 
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Apr 25, 2013 07:02
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I was looking around on google, because I was sure I'd heard something about inverted submarines in WWII but I couldn't find it. What I did find was this, which looks rather unpleasant to have been in. Submarines as lawn darts, the game of the future
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Apr 25, 2013 10:04
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While moving on the surface, can the control surfaces on the tail act as ailerons to counteract roll and keep the boat steadier?GAS CURES KIKES posted:Wait.. so ballast tanks are open at the bottom?
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Apr 25, 2013 10:41
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grover posted:While moving on the surface, can the control surfaces on the tail act as ailerons to counteract roll and keep the boat steadier? No.
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Apr 25, 2013 10:58
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Why not?
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Apr 25, 2013 11:20
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grover posted:Why not? Because they don't move independently.
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Apr 25, 2013 14:51
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Cerekk posted:Because they don't move independently. Think how much cooler the silent service would be if you could barrel roll your sub. Air force 1, Navy 0. 
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Apr 25, 2013 19:55
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Saga posted:Think how much cooler the silent service would be if you could barrel roll your sub. Then again, think how much cooler it is than being in the Air Force Air Force 1, Navy 37,536,982,187
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Apr 25, 2013 20:38
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Booblord Zagats posted:Then again, think how much cooler it is than being in the Air Force Yes, it sure is cool living in the barracks as an E-5 in the Navy when E-3s in the Air Force can get money to live off base.
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Apr 25, 2013 21:44
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ded posted:Yes, it sure is cool living in the barracks as an E-5 in the Navy when E-3s in the Air Force can get money to live off base. Still though, not in the Air Force AND you get to hang out with dreamy as gently caress Marines Air Force 1, Navy 37,536,982,188
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Apr 26, 2013 00:17
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Booblord Zagats posted:Still though, not in the Air Force AND you get to hang out with dreamy as gently caress Marines All Marines are dreamy, even Veins
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Apr 26, 2013 02:41
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I'd never make it in the Air Force, my golf handicap is far too high
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Apr 26, 2013 02:55
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Cerekk posted:Because they don't move independently.
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Apr 26, 2013 03:16
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grover posted:Well, that was sort of implied by "no". I was wondering why they weren' designed to move independently- seems like it would be a smart thing to do to maintain stability on the surface as well as redundancy to the fairweather planes for underwater stability. Because as terrifying as a jam dive casualty is, having the port plane in jam dive while the starboard one goes full rise would manage to be even worse. A lot of submarine design decisions are based on what the worst possible case is when the thing breaks. Cerekk fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Apr 26, 2013 |
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Apr 26, 2013 03:25
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a sub forced to aileron roll for an entire mission would be the coolest thing in the world for anyone not in the sub
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Apr 26, 2013 03:47
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Independent control surfaces means more mechanical apparatus, more pressure hull penetrations (bad) etc. We probably don't want to get into the physical details. There is delay in control response and I don't see how a human driver could react quickly enough to make it worthwhile; I'm not sure how much purchase the tailplanes have on the surface anyway. The entire teardrop hull concept is optimized for submerged ops at the cost of surfiace handling. It's not worth design compromises for the short surface transits needed.
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Apr 26, 2013 03:52
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Cerekk posted:Because as terrifying as a jam dive casualty is, having the port plane in jam dive while the starboard one goes full rise would manage to be even worse. I didn't even think that a jammed control surface could even happen to a sub. Couldn't you just kill the props to stop any motion if you were in a jammed dive?
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Apr 26, 2013 03:59
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holocaust bloopers posted:I didn't even think that a jammed control surface could even happen to a sub. Couldn't you just kill the props to stop any motion if you were in a jammed dive? Everything has an asston of momentum, you don't stop on a dime. Also, think how the controllability of a plane gets if you just cut the engines or reversed thrust.
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Apr 26, 2013 04:18
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Just as an example of what I mentioned to Shimazu, let's use the public numbers of 20 knots top speed and 700 feet dive floor. 20kts * 1.15mi/kt * 5280 ft/mi * 1 hr/ 60 min = ~2000 feet / min of speed. Assume the best case depth of 350 ft for max safety margin. Now assume a failed control casualty yielding a 30 degree up/down angle. pulled that number from nowhere because it makes for nice math; namely sin (30) = 0.5 so our vertical rate is 0.5 (2000) or 1000 ft/min. So you have 350/1000 minutes or 21 seconds to identify the casualty and correct before you broach or violate a depth limit. Now think of the force necessary to crash stop a 7000-15000 ton warship in 21 seconds.
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Apr 26, 2013 04:36
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holocaust bloopers posted:I didn't even think that a jammed control surface could even happen to a sub. Couldn't you just kill the props to stop any motion if you were in a jammed dive? "Jam dive" ranks up there with "Torpedo in the water" as far as just how hosed you are in sub lingo. A jammed control surface is one the things you would do an emergency blow for. Also there are no "props" on a sub, it's called a SCREW. 
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Apr 26, 2013 04:37
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ded posted:"Jam dive" ranks up there with "Torpedo in the water" as far as just how hosed you are in sub lingo. A jammed control surface is one the things you would do an emergency blow for. Also there are no "props" on a sub, it's called a SCREW. There are far worse things than either 'jam dive' or 'torpedo in the water'. I won't go into what these would be for nukes but for instance for sonarmen like ded it would be 'showers secured'
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Apr 26, 2013 05:10
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WP CURES PALESTINE posted:All Marines are dreamy, even Veins I know way too many girls that think this. Two gave me crabs. One of them was worth it
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Apr 26, 2013 05:19
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ded posted:"Jam dive" ranks up there with "Torpedo in the water" as far as just how hosed you are in sub lingo. A jammed control surface is one the things you would do an emergency blow for. Also there are no "props" on a sub, it's called a SCREW. Sorry! I only speak airplane. Ya I guess I should've phrased it better as in what would the emergency procedures be for something like that. So like do the guys who actually "drive" the sub have a full motion sim they use or is it OJT stuff?
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Apr 26, 2013 06:21
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holocaust bloopers posted:Sorry! I only speak airplane. I don't remember the specifics as I was never a control room guy, but it involved switching to backup controls, hitting a backing bell to stop forward movement, and a bunch of other crap. There are shore based trainers for nearly every drat thing on a sub. I knew how to operate broadband sonar before I ever stepped foot on the boat.
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Apr 26, 2013 09:32
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The older boats used off-hull trainers. Stuff like fire control (and probably the sonar stuff) were fairly accurate simulations, while visual navigation training was pretty hokey. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure there's no full motion helmsman / planesman trainer. The Virginia class can put the control room consoles into similation mode and load scenarios onto the real-deal equipment, which is pretty neat; there are a couple vids of this on Youtube. Of course the VA-class control room looks like the bridge of NCC-1701D compared to a 688 conn.
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Apr 26, 2013 10:06
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EDIT: Misread your formula.
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Apr 27, 2013 01:00
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Do you guys have religious services on board a sub? Is there a chaplain?
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Apr 27, 2013 01:09
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Is there any submarine movie better than Das Boot?
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Apr 27, 2013 01:33
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Oxford Comma posted:Is there any submarine movie better than Das Boot? Down Periscope.
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Apr 27, 2013 01:38
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Baloogan posted:Do you guys have religious services on board a sub? Is there a chaplain? On my boat it was just a super Christian officer that would do some Sunday school thing on Sunday mornings. We had a few people try to use it as an excuse to get out of watch and were told to quit crying about Jesus and so their loving job. It was awesome.
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Apr 27, 2013 01:46
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Mad Dragon posted:Down Periscope. That and Stripes are basically documentaries as far as I'm concerned.
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Apr 27, 2013 02:33
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Snowdens Secret posted:The older boats used off-hull trainers. Stuff like fire control (and probably the sonar stuff) were fairly accurate simulations, while visual navigation training was pretty hokey. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure there's no full motion helmsman / planesman trainer. There was a control room trainer at BESS when I went through it. Planes, BCP, Dive was all there. In Pearl they had a complete trainer that had planes, bcp, dive, navigation , ect everything needed to run a full control room tracking party plus sonar.
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Apr 27, 2013 04:28
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ded posted:There was a control room trainer at BESS when I went through it. Planes, BCP, Dive was all there. In Pearl they had a complete trainer that had planes, bcp, dive, navigation , ect everything needed to run a full control room tracking party plus sonar. Yeah, but I'm saying I bet it didn't rock back and forth and shake and poo poo like a Six Flags ride or an Air Force trainer ... or did it?
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Apr 27, 2013 10:46
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Snowdens Secret posted:Yeah, but I'm saying I bet it didn't rock back and forth and shake and poo poo like a Six Flags ride or an Air Force trainer Oh like that. No. But all of the ways to do emergency backup stuff was all there.
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Apr 27, 2013 11:38
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Do people get seasick on subs? I mean, a ship will roll and pitch based on the waves/winds/currents, so that makes sense. But what forces do subs have acting on them that could cause seasickness? Besides the obvious absence of windows and no way to look at the horizon. Just thinking with the recirculated air if someone yakked it could cause a pretty awesome chain reaction.
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Apr 27, 2013 14:03
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