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I don't know why? That's something a bunch of us put in the post course evaluations. There were two basic things maybe 7-8 out of 12 missed. One was a box about 2'-3' square directly after a weave through cones that you had to stop with your front tire in the center of. The other was a random stop sign that nobody was explicitly told to stop at. (There was also a white stop bar that somebody failed on because though his contact patch was behind the bar, because part of his front tire was directly above the line it counted as being crossed.) Neither of these should have been difficult for any of us to pass, but the newness of the task plus nervousness just threw the group off. For the square, it was totally thrown at you and nobody could even see the person in front of them doing it.
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Apr 22, 2013 00:18
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That sounds like a ridiculous bureaucratic fuckup. That's not an MSF course anymore.
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Apr 22, 2013 02:28
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Yeah, that's ridiculous. I know there's already a "stop with your tire in this box" thing in the MSF test so I can't imagine why they wouldn't teach that, and it would take all of five seconds to say "by the way, remember to stop for that stop sign there". You should write to the MSF itself (msf-usa.org) and complain.
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Apr 22, 2013 02:33
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The state tests always seemed to me to be really dumb and more designed to be performable in a crowded DMV parking lot than they were to be a check of safe riding competency. There was considerable draw with the MSF class that the test was designed yo be reasonably passable.
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Apr 22, 2013 02:48
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I'm glad they're not doing any of that nonsense in Illinois. I did badly enough on my evaluation without surprise boxes and unexplained stop signs.
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Apr 22, 2013 02:53
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I took the course last week in California. We did have to stop in a box after the swerve but we didn't have the extra stop sign.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:14
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Sagebrush posted:Yeah, that's ridiculous. I know there's already a "stop with your tire in this box" thing in the MSF test so I can't imagine why they wouldn't teach that, and it would take all of five seconds to say "by the way, remember to stop for that stop sign there". You should write to the MSF itself (msf-usa.org) and complain. The biggest problem to me was that the instructor's said they couldn't give ANY additional explanation beyond what was on the card, and that could only be re-read verbatim. A student specifically asked "Do we stop at the stop sign?" And the answer was "No, let me re-read it ..." A bunch of students took the initial "No" as "No. don't stop at the sign." The re-read instructions went through the exercise and didn't mention the stop sign except at the end there was an oh yeah, "Obey traffic devices." And that stop sign was an automatic failure. Afterwords, the instructors even said "We knew you (the student who asked the question) were confused about the stop sign, but there was nothing we could do to help you with it." He had a perfect score other than that. There was also a weird pre-qulifier that seemed to come out of left field. It was a turn followed by a 20 mph timed zone, followed by another sharper turn. They said it was designed to make sure we could go fast enough and if we couldn't complete it we couldn't finish the class or even take the test. After practicing it 4 times perfectly fine, the best student in the class (as the instructors were telling everybody) did it first, went too fast through the zone and went over the line for the turn. He couldn't even take the actual test. The instructors said they saw him do it during practice but that they had absolutely no leeway for the actual tests. IT sounds like the MVA got it in their heads that somehow the MSF was easier than their test and said they had to give an identical test, gave them the words they were allowed to say, and said they can't deviate from it in any way. It's funny because I think the state test is probably easier than most MSF tests - we didn't have to do a full 8 in a box, just the first u-turn, for example. I mean, I'm not trying to make an excuse - people did straight up miss a stop sign, but it felt like it was more of a failure to understand the particulars of the wording than a failure to be able to perform the skill.
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Apr 22, 2013 11:07
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Sounds like you guys were caught in some bureaucratic fallout during a changeover and the guys failed you all to prove the system needed to change.
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Apr 22, 2013 16:00
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Z3n posted:Sounds like you guys were caught in some bureaucratic fallout during a changeover and the guys failed you all to prove the system needed to change. This sounds a lot like the truth. I can't imagine the instructors not having any leeway in explaining sections of the test.
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Apr 23, 2013 13:13
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That's what our guys said in Chicago. It was the DMV-hosted free MSF course, and they said several times before the evaluation for us to get our questions out of the way beforehand because during the thing they would not be able to provide any explanation other that what is directly printed on the cards. They were cool guys before (and after) the testing, but it was funny, they became VERY SERIOUS while the evaluation was going on. "Candidate must clearly and legibly ride the motorcycle on a path tracing his or her own name in cursive script within box. Points will be deducted for the following: Riding outside of the lines, putting a foot down, and bad penmanship. Would you like me to read it again?" captainOrbital fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 16:47
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You said you were in Maryland...I saw an article once about roving gangs of kids on dirt bikes there who are free to hoon all over the place because, after a number of deadly accidents, the police are forbidden from chasing them down if they run. I wonder if the changes to the licensing are some kind of futile attempt to stop the hoonery?
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Apr 23, 2013 21:42
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Those guys don't have licenses....are you kidding?
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Apr 23, 2013 21:45
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Sagebrush posted:You said you were in Maryland...I saw an article once about roving gangs of kids on dirt bikes there who are free to hoon all over the place because, after a number of deadly accidents, the police are forbidden from chasing them down if they run. I wonder if the changes to the licensing are some kind of futile attempt to stop the hoonery? Good call. The 15, 16, 17 year old kids riding around on stolen dirtbikes are really freaked out about not having an M endorsement on their license.
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Apr 23, 2013 21:58
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No, not at all. It's exactly the same kind of "criminals with illegal guns are shooting up our neighborhood, let's make everyone buying a legal gun go through more background checks" mindset that all riled-up politicians seem to have.
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Apr 23, 2013 21:59
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I think that's a bit of a leap. I don't think the actual license test is any harder than anywhere else, and I don't think some politician thinks that the 12 O'clock Boys are using the MSF as a loophole to get their licenses. I'm pretty much past my annoyance now. I'm just going to retake the test this weekend and then write an email to the director of the program and to the MSF explaining what happened. I think that even if they could have just explained what was going to be on the test it wouldn't have been any kind of big deal. They gave us the Maryland motorcycle handbook which a=has diagrams and explanations of the license test, but they never even hinted that they would be using that same test for us. If they had I think everything would have been fine.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:15
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How much experience is it recommended you have before taking the advanced rider course? I got my endorsement through the msf about 6 months ago and just got my bike a few weeks back. How long should I be riding on the road before its recommended I take the advanced course?
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Apr 27, 2013 15:56
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Here in Montana they specify 12 months or 3000 street miles for Basic Rider Course 2, with the Advanced Rider Course simply stating "experienced."
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Apr 27, 2013 18:02
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I'm not sure if it was discussed already in this thread (I know it's been done in other ones) but the ARC is basically just the BRC on your own bike. It's ok as a refresher but I don't know anyone who came out of it feeling like it was worthwhile. Once you have some miles down something like Total Control (http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/) would probably be a better investment.
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Apr 27, 2013 18:14
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Cool, thanks for the replies
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Apr 28, 2013 06:35
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Definitely skip the ARC. Waste of time and money.
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Apr 28, 2013 06:46
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Stugazi posted:Definitely skip the ARC. Waste of time and money. Not completely, my girlfriend took the ARC (the only person not on a Harley) and she was recruited to be a RiderCoachTM afterwards.
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Apr 28, 2013 22:40
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Not sure where some of this is coming from, the programs that run in Wisconsin, the BRC and BRC2 are the same courses, the BRC2 just uses your own bike. The ARC teaches "advanced" techniques such as trail braking, body position, and "advanced cornering". I taught a BRC class this weekend and one of the students put down, "I wish the instructors had more hair." under the criticism section. Another student suggested, "Abolish the dual sports as optional bikes to ride, they crush my genitals."
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Apr 29, 2013 01:21
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I posted about my arc experience a few pages back. In San Diego we never left the parking lot. I think there were one or two things that were kinda cool but for the time and money it was pretty lame.
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Apr 29, 2013 02:47
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I just finished the first day of Canada Safety Council's "Gearing Up" course last night, and I'm absolutely hooked. I want to ride all the bikes
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May 1, 2013 19:06
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I wonder how long it'd take to get kicked out of the ARC if you showed up in full leathers and started dragging knees and backing it into corners around the parking lot.
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May 1, 2013 19:13
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I'll be doing my msf course this Friday. I don't have any prior experience with motorcycles, but I ride bikes everyday, and I drive a manual car. I understand the general concept of how motorcycles work, should I do some prep work before my class starts?
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May 1, 2013 23:58
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Nope, you're good.
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May 2, 2013 00:01
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Optimus Subprime posted:I don't have any prior experience with motorcycles, but I ride bikes everyday, and I drive a manual car. I understand the general concept of how motorcycles work, should I do some prep work before my class starts? I was in the exact same situation, and I did fine. The bicycle thing didn't help as much as I thought because they are SO drat HEAVY. But the first time I rode across the parking lot and took my feet off the ground and put them onto the pegs was magical.
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May 2, 2013 01:41
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Every weekend for the whole summer, there are MSCs held at municipal properties around the province. I make a point to ride by some of them and wave at the students, when I took it other riders did this and it got me even more excited 
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May 2, 2013 02:43
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Here's a fun one. One of the students was doing fine but struggling. Just nervous as all get out. During every exercise they'd do what they needed to but in a very mechanical way, nothing seemed to flow. During the emergency braking while in a corner everything seemed to come together and was perfect for that one moment. I congratulated them, "Perfect, good job!" To which they threw their hands up in the air and when "YAY!", while the bike was on, and in first gear. It (not "I") jumped forward about 8 inches and died (thank god for 250's). death isn't hard. it's the resurrection part, especially in front of a class. Skreemer fucked around with this message at 04:07 on May 5, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 00:00
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Skreemer posted:I jumped forward about 8 inches and died.  Ghost postin'
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May 4, 2013 00:34
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Snowdens Secret posted:I'm not sure if it was discussed already in this thread (I know it's been done in other ones) but the ARC is basically just the BRC on your own bike. It's ok as a refresher but I don't know anyone who came out of it feeling like it was worthwhile. Just wrapped up Total Control's ARC1 today. I would recommend it highly to everybody except maybe those with coached track experience. 12 riders with 2-40 years experience in this class today riding anything from Harley baggers to a Ducati 1200. The only thing everybody had in common is we all looked like poo poo at the start of the day, and were smoothly navigating tight corners by the end of the day with minimal bike lean. Taking this opens you up to skills days and the annual track outing as well. Very worth the money, and I am very happy I did this instead of the MSF's ERC.
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May 6, 2013 04:07
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Halo_4am posted:Just wrapped up Total Control's ARC1 today. I would recommend it highly to everybody except maybe those with coached track experience. 12 riders with 2-40 years experience in this class today riding anything from Harley baggers to a Ducati 1200. The only thing everybody had in common is we all looked like poo poo at the start of the day, and were smoothly navigating tight corners by the end of the day with minimal bike lean. Looks like I'm gonna have to watch twist of the wrist again, but I have been wondering this. I've noticed my chicken strips have gotten wider between this season and last, (from like non-existant to about 3/4 of an inch) and one reason I can think of for that is I've been focusing on BP for aggressive turns. This is a good thing right? Sometimes I feel like a goon getting some aggressive BP going and then barely leaning the bike because the turn wasn't as bad as I thought or I wasn't coming in as fast as I could have. Kind of a silly question I know.
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May 6, 2013 05:25
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If you're hanging off the bike and taking the tire to the edge you're riding too fast for the street. I don't hang off very far but my bike will scrape peg feelers before getting to the edge of the tire and that's riding averaging 60mph on some sweeper backroads.
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May 6, 2013 05:30
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Covert Ops Wizard posted:Looks like I'm gonna have to watch twist of the wrist again, but I have been wondering this. I've noticed my chicken strips have gotten wider between this season and last, (from like non-existant to about 3/4 of an inch) and one reason I can think of for that is I've been focusing on BP for aggressive turns. This is a good thing right? Sometimes I feel like a goon getting some aggressive BP going and then barely leaning the bike because the turn wasn't as bad as I thought or I wasn't coming in as fast as I could have. Coming out of a class that was all body position all the time I will say yeah absolutely. I will be looking like an absolute tard for the next few weeks at least as I am drilling myself on just about every turn. Do I feel silly looking like I am about to be dragging a knee taking a 20mph turn into a subdivision? Yeah, but the best way to perfect a technique is practice practice practice. I will say that this course is of more use to those that like big baggers with floorboards and 30 degree lean angles. My buddy took it with me today and had such a bike and before we got into body position he was scraping the poo poo out of those boards. Me and others on standard and sport position bikes were running the same course with the same (lack of) body position with no scraping at all because the bikes have much more lean. Once we got into the position techniques he was making the same turns at a faster pace without a trail of sparks behind him. Sport bikes can worry about chicken strips and the relation to the bike's very available lean angle. Big baggers don't worry about them because it's impossible to get them with a bike that doesn't have the angle to create them. The only way to properly handle a bike like that aggressively is to use your body to create a bigger lean. Just watch any of the vids of the guys that run Goldwings through Deal's Gap. They're not limited by the bike's available lean one bit.
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May 6, 2013 05:53
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Covert Ops Wizard posted:Looks like I'm gonna have to watch twist of the wrist again, but I have been wondering this. I've noticed my chicken strips have gotten wider between this season and last, (from like non-existant to about 3/4 of an inch) and one reason I can think of for that is I've been focusing on BP for aggressive turns. This is a good thing right? Sometimes I feel like a goon getting some aggressive BP going and then barely leaning the bike because the turn wasn't as bad as I thought or I wasn't coming in as fast as I could have. It's not your BP, it's better line choice. You look at the difference between a guy who rides crossed up and a guy who rides hanging off going exactly the same speed and the guy riding crossed up will have a bit more lean angle but not much. Nothing compared to how much you'll deform the rear tire under load with the throttle. Z3n fucked around with this message at 06:21 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 06:15
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My buddy took the MSF with me years back then never really rode. He's thinking of getting into it now, the returning rider course would be good for him yeah? I told him he might even get away with lot drills himself and going over all the old stuff, but the bonus of someone watching him would be nice too. I could always do it for him in a lot, but I feel like I might instill my bad habits in him, or forget to tell him things because I don't know all the stuff the instructors cover. Edit: Well he just told me the only returning rider classes start at 2 hours away from here so that might answer that question. It's pretty weird to me that none of the three counties in or around Cincinnati has a returning rider class. I'm counting full ones as well, there's nothing. nsaP fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 00:34
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Just took another BRC because the Navy says you need to every 3 years. Its always a blast hooning around on the little Nighthawk 250s for two days. Everyone passed, even the person who couldn't do anything. Lots of improvement from everyone in the two day course though. I still hosed up the box after doing it fine all day. Then I got on my FZ1 and nearly stalled because my clutch is a hair trigger with more oomph in the first milimeter compared to the 250s
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May 21, 2013 02:24
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nsaP posted:My buddy took the MSF with me years back then never really rode. He's thinking of getting into it now, the returning rider course would be good for him yeah? I told him he might even get away with lot drills himself and going over all the old stuff, but the bonus of someone watching him would be nice too. I could always do it for him in a lot, but I feel like I might instill my bad habits in him, or forget to tell him things because I don't know all the stuff the instructors cover. Out in the wild hinterlands of Wisconsin they only have 3 schools that run anything other than the BRC. Mainly because there isn't enough people signing up for the class on a consistent basis. Though trying to be ahead of the curve those three sites do offer, the brc i and ii, ARC, the UBB "ultimate bike bonding" (police and gymkhana type maneuvers), and a trike course. (of course all of those schools are within an hour or two of Milwaukee.)
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May 22, 2013 03:08
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I'm really bugging out about taking my skills test to get my motorcycle endorsement on my license. I'm in Pennsylvania which offers the MSF for free. All I have to do is pass the basic riding course which involves a few hours in a class and a skills test. I'm absolutely terrified of dumping my bike in front of a crowd of people (or dumping it at all.) Some sources like the DMV website claim that bikes are provided on site for the skills test but the training sites that I have called have told me that I have to ride my own bike. I'm an intermediate rider who has been riding for a few years on the road, I've always just renewed my permit once a year to avoid taking the MSF course because I never needed my endorsement. Now that I want to commute to work I need the endorsement so I can ride home at night, since the permit forbids me from riding after sunset. Basically what I'm asking is how hard is the skills test? I'm fairly certain I can pass it with no problem but I'm scared of making a fool out of myself and damaging my baby. 
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May 22, 2013 09:53
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