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CitizenKeen posted:Apologies, I was just pulling an example out of my rear end. I'm aware that a Fighter-base who multiclasses into Wizard doesn't get Ritual (if they take the spellcasting). I was just pointing out that they're the kind of people who will write a four page fluff backstory to justify taking moves from any class. Now, if a player writes four pages of fluff they should be able to do pretty much whatever they want, but with an emphasis on pretty much. I’m concerned that making DW classless could get dangerous and tricky from a balance perspective. It shouldn't be tricky from a balance perspective, all you have to do is, well, approach it. Work with your players to make the moves, and ideally have some experience with Dungeon World itself before diving straight in. When I first touched Dungeon World I was using Shapeshifter hold to give me +whatever to damage on Hack and Slash rolls and thought d6 damage was really lame. Then I slammed my head against a wall with sandworm hold and realized "this is Dungeon World, gently caress yes". Dungeon World isn't a game that rewards you for stacking the best mechanics on top of each other, it's a game where you roll 6- and jump into the giant flame whale's mouth to get your sword back. It actually does crunch really badly and most fights might very well be you swinging around on a giant stone golem until you trick it into smashing through the wall to the treasure room for you. There's very few bonuses to be had and a box for a negative to each stat on the sheet, everything else is just the story you're telling. That said, everyone should have a distinct 'thing' that's theirs to do. That's why classes are important, because they are those 'things'. It can be difficult to separate everyone into having their own distinct things to do if they just make their own characters up, but I feel like getting together and making your characters as a group both solves this problem and is a really good thing to do anyways.
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Apr 29, 2013 20:31
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My take is that so long as both the players and GM understand the power levels of the characters will increase by taking moves from everywhere, I don't see why not. Writing custom classes or custom moves works great too, but if your players are picking and choosing already I say just let that happen. Niche protection can be as simple as "don't pick the same move as someone else". The DW book already has a line for when two people want the same class ("talk it over like adults and compromise"), apply that logic to picking the same moves. Also helped by creating characters together as a group. The nice thing about DW is say you want the Fighter's signature weapon, Mage spellcasting, Wizard spellcasting, and Artificer gadgets. That's actually not an unbalanced character at all. Yeah, you do hog your own niche, but the moves overlap a hell of a lot and you can't use them all at once anyway. Somewhat more of a concern would be something like Mage spellcasting, Witch's potion, Druid shapeshifting, Psion telekinetic strike, and that's where niche and overlap protection would have to come in. You can pretty much codify this pretty much any way you like. Were it me, I'd have a fairly loose template, something like this. I might put it into PDF character sheet form later, if anyone but me thinks it's a good idea.
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Apr 29, 2013 21:14
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TheDemon posted:You can pretty much codify this pretty much any way you like. Were it me, I'd have a fairly loose template, something like this. I might put it into PDF character sheet form later, if anyone but me thinks it's a good idea. That is an excellent hack! Thank you.
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Apr 29, 2013 21:23
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TheDemon posted:You can pretty much codify this pretty much any way you like. Were it me, I'd have a fairly loose template, something like this. I might put it into PDF character sheet form later, if anyone but me thinks it's a good idea. I love being on Google Docs and seeing Anonymous (animal) appear. Good document, also. I like the picking of two stats to guide selections.
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Apr 29, 2013 21:38
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gnome7 posted:If you're already taking from Inverse World, I think The Walker and The Lantern have a lot of really cool abilities that work well in standard dungeoning. Also, I don't know how you missed The Witch. Broomstick flight, black magic, potion brewing, ice sculptures on demand. How is that not cool? I did consider these. The Walker makes for a really cool stealth-ninja type class (despite being STR-based), but given that its main thing is "walks on walls" and the mechanic has a thing that lets him do that plus he has a super mech suit, it felt like a bit of niche encroachment. Of course that's not necessarily going to be the case, but I'm cautious of characters treading on others' turf. Looking over the Walker again there is a lot there that looks fun, perhaps not on the scale of the Mechanic or the Druid but probably on par with the Gladiator. The Lantern is neat but I think its flavour is a bit setting-specific, there are already plenty of magical classes, and having a little light that does stuff is fun but it doesn't seem to fill any particular archetype that plyers could get into. It's weirdly specific while not exactly fitting a fictional niche. I might give it a go but I'm not sure about including it as core in a dungeon-crawling swashbuckling adventure setting. I did just take a look at the Captain though: quote:Sail the The rest of the playbook works completely fine, word-for-word. Problem solved 
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Apr 29, 2013 21:59
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Boing posted:while not exactly fitting a fictional niche. Well no, that is kind of the point. It fits a fictional niche that isn't there in D&D. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 29, 2013 |
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Apr 29, 2013 22:13
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Lemon Curdistan posted:This is bullshit. I think you misunderstand my hyperbole. The person I was responding to seemed to be worried about dnd 3.x style multi classing where you cherry pick 2 or 3 levels of 5 different classes that have no thematic unity for a monstously powerful character. I was trying to illustrate that isn't really a problem in DW. Balance totally matters when making a class but that wasn't the issue at hand.
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Apr 29, 2013 22:28
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Boing posted:The Lantern is neat but I think its flavour is a bit setting-specific, there are already plenty of magical classes, and having a little light that does stuff is fun but it doesn't seem to fill any particular archetype that plyers could get into. It's weirdly specific while not exactly fitting a fictional niche It all depends on your perspective.  Besides, having setting-specific things that are neat and different and maybe only fit the fictional niche created for them in the setting shouldn't be a downside in fantasy fiction.
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Apr 29, 2013 22:28
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Boing posted:
Actually that change is addressed and mentioned in the draft of the rulebook. I also include rules for being the captain of a walking land-castle and a spaceship. "The rest of the playbook works completely fine, word-for-word." was intentional.
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Apr 29, 2013 22:39
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gnome7 posted:Actually that change is addressed and mentioned in the draft of the rulebook. I also include rules for being the captain of a walking land-castle and a spaceship. "The rest of the playbook works completely fine, word-for-word." was intentional. What Gnome isn't explicitly saying, but totally means, is that Inverse World is perfect for tabletop Final Fantasy 6.
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Apr 29, 2013 22:45
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Gnome, where do you want feedback on the IW playbooks?
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Apr 29, 2013 23:40
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gnome7 posted:Actually that change is addressed and mentioned in the draft of the rulebook. I also include rules for being the captain of a walking land-castle and a spaceship. "The rest of the playbook works completely fine, word-for-word." was intentional. Oh awesome! The playbooks are definitely my favourite part of IW so I really like the idea of hacking them to fit a particular setting. I'm pleased you don't mind  Lemon Curdistan posted:Well no, that is kind of the point. It fits a fictional niche that isn't there in D&D. Rulebook Heavily posted:Besides, having setting-specific things that are neat and different and maybe only fit the fictional niche created for them in the setting shouldn't be a downside in fantasy fiction. I agree and I agree. I think there are levels of that, though. Fighters and Thieves and Paladins are staples of the D&D genre of fantasy fiction, and they are a bit stale. Pirate captains and mad inventors and gladiators are a bit fresher - they are stereotypes, but you don't often get to play as one, so they are exciting. And because they are stereotypes, they are easy to make characters out of. You just need to project a few tweaks and a little flavour onto that stereotype and you have a perfectly legit playable character. People know what a Fighter or a Thief or a Paladin does. People also know what an airship captain or an inventor with a mech suit or a gladiator do. But, at least for me, the Lantern feels weird to get as a character concept, since there's nothing that guides that fiction. Stereotypes can be useful when they're not overplayed. It's unique, and while I normally go for that kind of thing, I'm not sure about including it in a core line-up of pick-up-and-play classes for first time DW players. Although I will have it stashed away in the folder when I say "Or if you don't fancy any of those, I have some more off-the-wall poo poo in here". Except the Walker, that one is on-the-wall e: I love the Witch too and it's very flavourful in just the right way, but overlaps with the Mage a lot. The Initiate is a good call though. Boing fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Apr 29, 2013 |
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Apr 29, 2013 23:41
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The Lantern already exists in two places you may not have thought of, actually - Jedi Knights and Green Lantern. The class is basically a mix of those two things.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:14
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Mikan posted:What Gnome isn't explicitly saying, but totally means, is that Inverse World is perfect for tabletop Final Fantasy 6. This is literally how I pitched it to my group.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:16
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Gnome, where do you want feedback on the IW playbooks? PM me.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:22
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gnome7 posted:The Lantern already exists in two places you may not have thought of, actually - Jedi Knights and Green Lantern. The class is basically a mix of those two things. This. One of the advanced moves literally gives you a lightsaber. 
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Apr 30, 2013 00:28
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Well I just spent a bunch of money on DW playbooks, I hope you guys are happy  (seriously though I am going to have so much fun)
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Apr 30, 2013 00:31
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gnome7 posted:And the Inverse World Kickstarter is live! So psyched!
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Apr 30, 2013 00:38
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gnome7 posted:The Lantern already exists in two places you may not have thought of, actually - Jedi Knights and Green Lantern. The class is basically a mix of those two things. I was already backing, but now I'm far more interested in this play book. I haven't even read all the previews yet.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:51
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ElegantFugue posted:Do you mean the Sharpshooter again? Because I'm okay with the Marksman class I wrote sharing the name but I do think it might get kinda confusing. I don't even know anymore. I should really just call it the Hitman or the Cleaner or something.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:52
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CitizenKeen posted:Mix and matching, multiclassing stuff. The entire party can be made of Freebooters. That might work for you, or it might give you some ideas.
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Apr 30, 2013 01:40
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Ich posted:The entire party can be made of Freebooters. I like this. Is it your intention that taking Combat Trick twice lets you pick both H&S and volley? I wasn't sure exactly what you mean by, "doesn't stack," as that seems to be the only reason you'd do that. EDIT: The situational stuff. Never mind me. RSIxidor fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 02:05
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Destrado posted:On that note if there's three other Australians wanting in on the physical copy, get in touch! I'll be in for one if we can find another two.
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Apr 30, 2013 02:27
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In regards to the discussion about multiclassing and cobbling together playsheets for custom ideas, it's worth mentioning that Dungeon World works off a single core mechanic for task resolution. So long as yuor players aren't regularly rolling more than +3 on a move, they're going to get plenty of 7-9 results that drive the game forward. World of Dungeons proves you can play an entire game just with Defy Danger. The beauty of DW playbooks as they are is that they present a cohesive fictional concept for your character. Multiclassing as is gives you an opportunity to broaden the scope of your character in a controlled way. Gnome's Worldly multiclass move and a variation of (I think Lemon's) Thematic multiclass move could be included as options for every player at your table. Give Thematic to them as an option between 2-5, and Worldly as an option for 6-10. Thematic Advancement For one of your advanced moves, you may take a move from any playbook appropriate to your character's theme and level. Describe how you came to have this new move. If you take a starting move that relies on other moves to function, you get those moves as well. Worldly Advancement For one of your advanced moves, you may take a move approriate to your level -1, from any playbook another player isn't using. If you take a starting move that relies on other moves to function, you get those moves as well. Another option to consider is custom moves and compendium classes when your players level up. Doing this at the table, or as a team effort is fun, rewarding, and will produce more balanced results. You can get a lot of variation and different flavour from playbooks by re-skinning as well. A simple edit to a move's trigger can make it play very differently. There is the posibility to munchkin DW if you give open season multiclassing to players, but the results are less rewarding than other systems because it's difficult to inflate your stats beyond +3. There are some veteran munchkin players in my group that know how to milk a system, but when we started playing DW, they quickly abandoned that. They didn't care when they got a sub-optimal roll because exciting things were still happening and it didn't neccessarily 'feel' like failure. The best thing about DW is that failure doesn't stall the game - it drives it!
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Apr 30, 2013 03:31
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MadRhetoric posted:I don't even know anymore. I should really just call it the Hitman or the Cleaner or something. Hey, that's a great idea! That way there won't be any danger of confusion until I actually post what I've gotten so far for The Secret Agent class I have been working on lately! This is actually freaking me out a little at this point. On an even-more-related note, The Secret Agent will get a set of three Gadgets per mission, which he can spend to gain the use of one move from any other class not in use for a bit. Just how long he can use it (and how much attention he'll draw in the process) depends on what sort of flaws you choose the gadget to suffer from. Anyway, in honor of Inverse World's Kickstarter, I've updated The Marksman to use Inverse World-style Drive and Background instead of Alignment and Race. I also tightened up the wording on Draw a Bead on 'em to have more of a fiction hook, dropped the Bullseye-style Assortment of Hidden Throwables for a newfangled Dwarven pistol, added a new move called Stand and Deliver, and dropped In My Sights (which no longer actually did anything with Draw a Bead and Curve the Arrow combined) for Hawkeye, which lets you shoot the balls off a fly at twenty paces if you're so inclined. The classic Marksman is still available at the same spot as before, but I'd strongly recommend using the new IW-style Marksman if you can.
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Apr 30, 2013 06:02
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So The Giant is approaching completion. I've moves the Talisman size-shifting moves into the advanced moves list, and I'm still thinking of rewriting them or cutting them entirely. I've also got some material for the third page:The Giant posted:Including a Giant in your game Any other things you folks think should be addressed, or any other questions that would be good to add?
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Apr 30, 2013 07:11
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No, that's an excellent primer to include on the first page - it does a good job or highlighting the differences between the Giant and normal-sized characters. In other news, here is what I'm working on right now: quote:Starting moves Still short two starting moves (as well as all the rest, of course), but it's a magic-powered assassin class. Still haven't decided what stat to use as primary; I'm leaning towards Int. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 08:59
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"The dude from Dishonored" is a great idea for a class
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Apr 30, 2013 09:26
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Boing posted:"The dude from Dishonored" is a great idea for a class Yeah, it is a pretty rare instance of having enough material for an entire class in a single source. I am still ripping from other places, though (notably the Malazan Book of the Fallen, a tiny bit from the AD&D Assassin, and then probably a fair bit from movies).
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Apr 30, 2013 09:54
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Yeah, it is a pretty rare instance of having enough material for an entire class in a single source. I am still ripping from other places, though (notably the Malazan Book of the Fallen, a tiny bit from the AD&D Assassin, and then probably a fair bit from movies). Don't forget good ol assassins creed, and fitz from the Farseer trilogy by robin hobb.
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Apr 30, 2013 11:07
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, that's an excellent primer to include on the first page - it does a good job or highlighting the differences between the Giant and normal-sized characters. On Contract Killer, it seems like +Cha is a natural fit, but +Int could work, too. Alternatively, have you considered a building reputation? Maybe class starts with one rep, and instead of giving -1 ongoing, failing gives -1 rep and succeeding gives +1 rep. Maybe it's not worth it to have that extra fiddly bit, though. Just spouting ideas.u
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Apr 30, 2013 12:56
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Still short two starting moves (as well as all the rest, of course), but it's a magic-powered assassin class. Still haven't decided what stat to use as primary; I'm leaning towards Int. I'd be tempted by Int first with Dex as a secondary, but it's tricky! I much prefer Translocation as the class's main move over Cat's Grace; it's much cleaner and simpler to use (though still as versatile) and sets the direction of the class as a dextrous-wizard-assassin, rather than a traditional thief who can branch in to magic. Cat's Grace has good components, but I feel it's trying to do too much at once. You could definitely afford to split it up a bit and get a bit more depth from the moves. e.g. quote:Starting Moves Also, you've got to include a Backstab kinda move! Here's the Thief move, though I've never been that impressed with it: quote:Backstab The Supreme Court fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 13:17
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Hi folks, I'm Chris Sakkas, the guy behind Grim Portents (download issue 1 ("The Dead of Winter") here). Submissions for issue 2 ("The Wine-Dark Sea") are now closed, but I've just announced the theme for issue 3: "The Thaw". I would love to see what you can come up with. You don't have to submit an article that's on-theme, and you don't have to write the submission especially for Grim Portents. I'm particularly excited by the extensive feedback and reworking which homebrews get exposed to here. If you wanted to submit the final version of a playbook to Grim Portents instead of or as well as publishing it on DriveThruRPG, I'd be very happy to publish it. There's no closing date for submissions yet because I have uni exams coming up and there's no point closing submissions if it'll take me another month or two to get the issue together. If you have a submission or any questions, please do email me: sanglorian@gmail.com I'll also stick around on this thread if you have any comments or questions. Thanks folks. ---- EDIT: Someone asked what sort of submissions I was accepting to Grim Portents 3: The Thaw. Sorry, I really should have mentioned that: * They have to be under a Creative Commons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike licence. * They can be for any * World or World of * game. * They can be any length, from a single move or monster to a 5,000-word epic. * And I guess I would have to think hard about an R-rated submission, although nothing has come close to that so far. Sanglorian fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 15:11
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"The Thaw" is a really great theme, very evocative. Gonna see if I can come up with something to fit. Inverse World is a Kickstarter staff pick 
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Apr 30, 2013 15:13
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Mikan posted:Inverse World is a Kickstarter staff pick Let this be a lesson learned: EM is some kind of black magic social media wizard, and getting him to help with your KS will probably mean you win. The Supreme Court posted:I much prefer Translocation as the class's main move over Cat's Grace; it's much cleaner and simpler to use (though still as versatile) and sets the direction of the class as a dextrous-wizard-assassin, rather than a traditional thief who can branch in to magic. Translocation felt like I was forcing a reference to me, and didn't really entirely fit with the rest of the basic moves/first-glance class concept - the idea is that you're a magically-enhanced assassin, and teleporting is more a kind of thing you would get an advance for. Cat's Grace has been split - although I have too many 2-5 moves now. Whoops! I deliberately do not want to involve rolling in Heightened Reflexes - you just always go first as long as you aren't surprised, no matter what. It's a good enough bonus to make up one move! And I have a +damage move: Anatomist When you deliberately aim for a creature’s vital organs, deal +1d6 damage. Doesn't rely on surprise, not boostable with another advance, requires you to know where their vital organs are. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 15:36
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Lemon Curdistan posted:And I have a +damage move: And I like that you used the word "organs" - doesn't work against golems, clockwork beasts, elementals, and most undead and plant creatures. Useful without being omnipresent. Good stuff.
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Apr 30, 2013 16:00
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CitizenKeen posted:And I like that you used the word "organs" - doesn't work against golems, clockwork beasts, elementals, and most undead and plant creatures. Useful without being omnipresent. Good stuff. That's why you should always aim for the organelles (well, I guess that actually only helps with plants).
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Apr 30, 2013 16:22
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CitizenKeen posted:And I like that you used the word "organs" - doesn't work against golems, clockwork beasts, elementals, and most undead and plant creatures. Useful without being omnipresent. Good stuff. That was the intention, but I'm debating either changing it or having an advance to broaden it; it's weird that you couldn't use it to do more damage to e.g. an automaton by targeting servo clumps, or whatever. In other news: quote:STARTING MOVES Still not entirely sure on the starting move array.
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Apr 30, 2013 16:39
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Let this be a lesson learned: EM is some kind of black magic social media wizard, and getting him to help with your KS will probably mean you win. Wait, I'm what now?
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Apr 30, 2013 16:39
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Lemon Curdistan posted:That was the intention, but I'm debating either changing it or having an advance to broaden it; it's weird that you couldn't use it to do more damage to e.g. an automaton by targeting servo clumps, or whatever. I guess there's some viability there: Spout Lore to know where clockwork golems are vulnerable. 6-, they have no servo clumps.
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Apr 30, 2013 16:52
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