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Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004

Very funny guys. :mad:

kimbo305 posted:

Mr. Interweb, did you pick an art/gym yet?

From several months back so apologies, but I did. Was spending time going back to traditional boxing. Unfortunately, I've got a new job that's totally gonna gently caress that up for the next few months. :(

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Julio Cesar Fatass
Jul 24, 2007

"...."

Mr Interweb posted:

Random question: Is there any martial art that focuses primarily on punching and elbow strikes?

Boxing uses elbow, head and shoulder strikes but they don't like to talk about it.

Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

Mr Interweb posted:

Random question: Is there any martial art that focuses primarily on punching and elbow strikes?

First dude fighting Jackie Chan. It doesn't work very well, though (against Jackie Chan.)

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Julio Cesar Fatass posted:

Boxing uses elbow, head and shoulder strikes but they don't like to talk about it.

The Bernard Hopkins school of boxing.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
One of the CTE pioneers calling for CTE-specific examination of the first marathon bomber's brain:
http://www.boston.com/sports/marathon/2013/04/20/researchers-urge-special-brain-autopsy-bombing-suspect/UoZExTff0K4olSTyIV5WGL/story.html

Mr Interweb posted:

Very funny guys. :mad:


From several months back so apologies, but I did. Was spending time going back to traditional boxing. Unfortunately, I've got a new job that's totally gonna gently caress that up for the next few months. :(

How does the job affect your training? Geography or schedule? I can't imagine geography being a huge problem. You can always practice your jab in front of the mirror.

Julio Cesar Fatass
Jul 24, 2007

"...."

Xguard86 posted:

The Bernard Hopkins school of boxing.

The jailhouse rock guys used to spooge over the Tyson/Smith fight because Iron Mike beat the poo poo out of Bonecrusher with elbows. God alone knows what they would have done if they saw Harry Greb do his thing.

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

Syphilis Fish posted:

This. You can come in and be able to run a marathon but a jiujitsu match will tire you out if its your first. You can kickbox for sixteen rounds but not roll for 3. Everything has its own cardio. Even if you can kickbox forever and do jiujitsu forever, MMA will kick your rear end because it's both.

Other cardio helps, but train what you do.

while I agree that "train judo if you want to get better at judo" is a great advice, running/rowing in addition to judo will help cardio tremendously, even more so than just doing more judo.

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008
I know a black belt who spends about twice the time weight lifting that he spends doing Judo. He's ripped and it's absolutely impossible to get anything on him when he's determined to ball up, but his Judo suuuuucks and he doesn't seem to realize it. Don't be that guy!

CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Apr 22, 2013

Novum
May 26, 2012

That's how we roll
The problem with people having 'striking cardio' vs 'grappling cardio' and stuff like that is that usually the really good strikers aren't grappling as much and don't quite have a handle on how to keep an efficient economy of motion while wrestling. So yeah, if you want better wrestling cardio (or whatever) the more you wrestle the more accustomed your body will become, but swimming and other things designed to improve cardiovascular fitness will improve your actual cardio. They sort of go hand in hand like that.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice

CivilDisobedience posted:

I know a black belt who spends about twice the time weight lifting that he spends doing Judo. He's ripped and it's absolutely impossible to get anything on him when he's determined to ball up, but his Judo suuuuucks and he doesn't seem to realize it. Don't be that guy!

At that point he's basically a weight lifter who supplements with some Judo rather than the other way around.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

Novum posted:

The problem with people having 'striking cardio' vs 'grappling cardio' and stuff like that is that usually the really good strikers aren't grappling as much and don't quite have a handle on how to keep an efficient economy of motion while wrestling. So yeah, if you want better wrestling cardio (or whatever) the more you wrestle the more accustomed your body will become, but swimming and other things designed to improve cardiovascular fitness will improve your actual cardio. They sort of go hand in hand like that.

a good post that saved me some typing

HondaCivet
Oct 16, 2005

And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know


Mechafunkzilla posted:

a good post that saved me some typing

But now you are deprived of precious typing cardio.

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008
Introducing the new CardioKeyboard(patent pending) with weighted keys so you can get swole while you troll! Just 5 easy payments of...

E: v Smart man! I think rock climbing and judo complement each other really well

CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 24, 2013

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005
If you want to get better at Judo, spend as much time as possible training Judo, which will result in better Judo.

Realistically, you are going to have some free time where you can't train Judo for logistical reasons. Spend most of it training cardio, because the better your cardio is, the more quality reps you will be able to perform during drilling and the sharper your technique will be during randori, which will result in better judo.

Probably you will have some other extra time in addition to that. Spend it on strength and flexibility training, because both of those help prevent injuries, and the more time you spend uninjured the more time you'll be able to spend training Judo, which will result in better Judo.

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs
Judo competition trip report complete with ridiculous music added to the videos

So I drove 3 hours to go to some competition because it's fun and I need points if I'm to become a black belt eventually. Turns out I had to fight people quite a bit bigger than me. I was at 71 kg (156 pounds) and the other guys were between 76 and 78kg ( ~ 168 to 171 pounds). Ended up with bronze medal, think I would have been able to grab 2nd place if I hadn't hosed up in the first fight, but after all is said and done I'm quite happy with 3rd place. Next time will be better.

First fight :
I'm pretty happy with how it went. I made quite a few mistakes due to stress and over excitement (especially not stepping in with my right handed-left side seoi), but I like the way I fought on the ground. Got so close to getting my sweep and then so close to getting the armbar. What could I have done to prevent him from escaping the arm bar? Just pull him in tighter with my legs and squeeze my knees more? Lost to a yuko... Not sure he really holded me on the ground long enough for that to be yuko, but whatever.
Video : http://youtu.be/OJFGJNEF7UE

Second fight :
Won this one with a choke. Could have been better in the stand up part, but did what I needed to do on the ground.
Video : http://youtu.be/pFMEmtCNgg0


Third fight :
Victory, not much to say about this one. Could/should have won standing, but it was just there when we hit the ground.
Video : http://youtu.be/GSGARDTihBw

Fourth fight :
This video should be titled : I suck against uchi mata and the guy was twice as strong as me. Look how he just pulls me toward him before throwing the uchi mata haha.
Video : http://youtu.be/3DA20LnkNSc

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008
Nice fights KC, thanks for the vids and grats on placing against those 170lb guys! Now, I'm gonna be kinda critical, cause I know you're a technician and you don't need me to sugarcoat it: You need to shelve those sacrifice attempts this instant, you're relying too much on them and they are loving your whole posture and flow.

Check it out:
Vid1@0:10 you're in jigotai, but instead of bracing against you, your opponent just opens up your elbows and takes control. 2 seconds later you're whiffing a tomoe attempt and landing on your back. You stand back up, get your grip, and then go right back to jigotai (0:44) so you can't use your hip to sell the deashi or counter his ouchi, and this also telegraphs your drop seoi attempt so he easily avoids it and puts you on your back again. Now you're trying to muscle out a short armbar from guard, but you forget to put your shin against his head before you try to roll, so he rips his arm out while you're upside down and then it's time to stand back up. To your credit, you stay a little looser on this next engage, and this creates a good throw opportunity@1:25, but you don't take it and then he freaks you out with a leg attack and you're back to jigotai and another whiffed drop seoi. You created another good throw opportunity@1:53 but you didn't commit to the sweep attempt enough to even make him step it, and instead you try yet another telegraphed drop seoi attempt, which he floats, so now again you're fighting to get off your back. Reset, you both go jigotai, take turns trading unconvincing leg attacks, you yoko tomoe with no lifting action, now you're on your back again. That's the pattern I'm seeing.

So I'm sure you see how the drop seoi tunnelvision is causing you problems, but let me remind you about the dangers of over-using tomoe nages too: if an opponent anticipates your drop (which isn't hard when you're doing it a lot) and even just pretends to sweep your leg as you go down, he will get the ippon. Don't take those unnecessary risks, hit sacrifices only when you're 100% sure they'll land for ippon.

I had other stuff to say but I've gotta get to work. Osss!

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

CivilDisobedience posted:

Nice fights KC, thanks for the vids and grats on placing against those 170lb guys! Now, I'm gonna be kinda critical, cause I know you're a technician and you don't need me to sugarcoat it: You need to shelve those sacrifice attempts this instant, you're relying too much on them and they are loving your whole posture and flow.

Check it out:
Vid1@0:10 you're in jigotai, but instead of bracing against you, your opponent just opens up your elbows and takes control. 2 seconds later you're whiffing a tomoe attempt and landing on your back. You stand back up, get your grip, and then go right back to jigotai (0:44) so you can't use your hip to sell the deashi or counter his ouchi, and this also telegraphs your drop seoi attempt so he easily avoids it and puts you on your back again. Now you're trying to muscle out a short armbar from guard, but you forget to put your shin against his head before you try to roll, so he rips his arm out while you're upside down and then it's time to stand back up. To your credit, you stay a little looser on this next engage, and this creates a good throw opportunity@1:25, but you don't take it and then he freaks you out with a leg attack and you're back to jigotai and another whiffed drop seoi. You created another good throw opportunity@1:53 but you didn't commit to the sweep attempt enough to even make him step it, and instead you try yet another telegraphed drop seoi attempt, which he floats, so now again you're fighting to get off your back. Reset, you both go jigotai, take turns trading unconvincing leg attacks, you yoko tomoe with no lifting action, now you're on your back again. That's the pattern I'm seeing.

So I'm sure you see how the drop seoi tunnelvision is causing you problems, but let me remind you about the dangers of over-using tomoe nages too: if an opponent anticipates your drop (which isn't hard when you're doing it a lot) and even just pretends to sweep your leg as you go down, he will get the ippon. Don't take those unnecessary risks, hit sacrifices only when you're 100% sure they'll land for ippon.

I had other stuff to say but I've gotta get to work. Osss!

First, thanks for the critique. This is why I'm posting those vids here.

Yeah I know they are lame haha, I think it's the competition doing this to me. I always fight differently in comps vs randori because I'm afraid of losing/being countered and I tend to depend on drop/sacrifice throws because I feel comfortable on the ground even against bigger opponents. So I think my reliance of that sort of attack is caused by fear of losing basically.

I really need to work on my psychology/stress levels before going to competition. My goal for this competition was to attack a lot because I used to freeze up in competition and just counter. So I'm happy that I at least attacked. Next time I'll do better!

As far as ground work was considered, the arm bar I was trying to do was this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDuMHyaO34

Anyway, great critique, really liking it. I'm going to look at all my fights with your comments in mind and try to find a way to work on that during practice.

wedgie deliverer
Oct 2, 2010

You're posture was already compromised before your opponent even gripped you in your 4th fight. The ref is in the way, but it looks like you bent over and leaned in for the grip. I would suggest you try and stand up more and be a little more patient with the gripping. It's not like hes gonna be able to shoot a double on you. Anyone who does uchimata and sees that posture will be able to attack with impunity if you're that bent over. They don't even need to drag you around.

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008

KingColliwog posted:

As far as ground work was considered, the arm bar I was trying to do was this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDuMHyaO34

Yeah I get that. I usually call that the short armbar to differentiate it from the standard arm bar where you put them on their back before you finish. The trouble is that the short armbar gives the opponent control of your weight, and all they have to do is make a slight adjustment to defend and leave you hanging onto their forearm with all your might (and limbs). Speaking from personal experience, people intuitively use it to bait you into giving up free guard passes, and that's a huge liability. Also, because there's such a small window of opportunity to finish it's really easy to move too fast and hurt people, and that sucks. Anyway, when you roll a lot with newbies and wrestlers you come across the guys who just won't tap when they're on top for whatever reason, and the 'follow through' becomes essential then. You could use the same setup to transition into the one at 1:14 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbEDtQdKM68&t=74s, I think it's a good compromise between the full armbar sweep and the short armbar

E: And honestly the only reason you wouldn't want to do the full armbar sweep is if you're worried about them biting you in the leg, which also sucks.

CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Apr 25, 2013

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

CivilDisobedience posted:

Yeah I get that. I usually call that the short armbar to differentiate it from the standard arm bar where you put them on their back before you finish. The trouble is that the short armbar gives the opponent control of your weight, and all they have to do is make a slight adjustment to defend and leave you hanging onto their forearm with all your might (and limbs). Speaking from personal experience, people intuitively use it to bait you into giving up free guard passes, and that's a huge liability. Also, because there's such a small window of opportunity to finish it's really easy to move too fast and hurt people, and that sucks. Anyway, when you roll a lot with newbies and wrestlers you come across the guys who just won't tap when they're on top for whatever reason, and the 'follow through' becomes essential then. You could use the same setup to transition into the one at 1:14 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbEDtQdKM68&t=74s, I think it's a good compromise between the full armbar sweep and the short armbar

E: And honestly the only reason you wouldn't want to do the full armbar sweep is if you're worried about them biting you in the leg, which also sucks.

hum... interesting, the one you posted in video is the one I used to do all the time, but now I added the "short arm bar" to my arsenal for when I manage to make my opponent's arm cross my center line. I don't see how I could have done that one in that fight though.

Just so you know how I feel things went : I first failed a pendulum sweep (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJwZeuINg3Y) because I was stupid and didn't first grab his left arm so he was able to post. It did unbalance him quite a bit and that's why I managed to push his right arm across my center line and try the armbar, but made (at least) 3 mistakes : I didn't push his face with my left forearm to help my left leg get over his face/break his posture, I didn't swim my arm behind his knee and I didn't apply enough pressure with my legs. These 3 mistakes together made it easier for him to power out of the submission.

What do you mean by full armbar sweep? Doing the "short arm bar" and then grabbing the same side leg/knee and rolling them over? That would definitely have been a great idea.

swmmrmanshen posted:

You're posture was already compromised before your opponent even gripped you in your 4th fight. The ref is in the way, but it looks like you bent over and leaned in for the grip. I would suggest you try and stand up more and be a little more patient with the gripping. It's not like hes gonna be able to shoot a double on you. Anyone who does uchimata and sees that posture will be able to attack with impunity if you're that bent over. They don't even need to drag you around.

Almost missed that post. Thanks for taking the time to comment. I saw the fight from another angle too and what happened is I grabbed his right sleeve to stop him from getting a right handed lapel grip. He also grabbed my sleeve and then from 0:13 to 0:15 he makes two steps back while pulling hard on my sleeve and that's when I bend over. I probably followed him too much and may be I could have standed side ways more or something so he didn't get the second grip, but honestly when he pulled me I wasn't able to stay in place at all. Do you have a suggestion on what I should have done to stay more upright when he pulled on my sleeve? What happened is certainly the worst thing that can happen so I'm open to ideas because I'm bent over too often and it's a terrible habit.

KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Apr 25, 2013

Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004

kimbo305 posted:

How does the job affect your training? Geography or schedule? I can't imagine geography being a huge problem. You can always practice your jab in front of the mirror.

Well, the gym I go to is only open during the hours I'm working. True, I can practice a bit on my own, but while I may be able to improve my jab, I won't be learning any new techniques and going through proper training.

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008

KingColliwog posted:

What do you mean by full armbar sweep? Doing the "short arm bar" and then grabbing the same side leg/knee and rolling them over? That would definitely have been a great idea.

Yeah pretty much, but the part I really want to emphasize is pinching your knees together on their arm. In that Kashiwazaki vid, what's important is that after he clamps down on the arm with both legs, he can just use a hip spin to simultaneously break his opponent's posture, get off his back and isolate the elbow. This is a bit of a generalization, but you're trying to use your arms to maintain control and finishing with your legs, he's going about it the opposite way.

E: This is going to sound ridiculous, but think of yourself as a caterpillar inching along a branch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqja5yHrtg

CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 25, 2013

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

CivilDisobedience posted:

Yeah pretty much, but the part I really want to emphasize is pinching your knees together on their arm. In that Kashiwazaki vid, what's important is that after he clamps down on the arm with both legs, he can just use a hip spin to simultaneously break his opponent's posture, get off his back and isolate the elbow. This is a bit of a generalization, but you're trying to use your arms to maintain control and finishing with your legs, he's going about it the opposite way.

E: This is going to sound ridiculous, but think of yourself as a caterpillar inching along a branch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqja5yHrtg

Yeah I know that, this is the main part that I hosed up in the arm bar which is why my original comment when I posted the vid was this : """What could I have done to prevent him from escaping the arm bar? Just pull him in tighter with my legs and squeeze my knees more?""". It's something I hosed up because of competition brain and not something I usually do. I just wonder if there is something else I can do to stop him escaping or if just squeezing my knees more would have been enough.

Also, amazing video. Might use that example when showing arm bars to lower belts

You've been helpful up to now, thx for the comments. It's always nice to have critique but sometime hard to

KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Apr 25, 2013

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Mr Interweb posted:

Well, the gym I go to is only open during the hours I'm working. True, I can practice a bit on my own, but while I may be able to improve my jab, I won't be learning any new techniques and going through proper training.

Are you on 2nd or 3rd shift? If you're in a decently sized area, there ought to be another gym with wider hours.

wedgie deliverer
Oct 2, 2010

KingColliwog posted:

Almost missed that post. Thanks for taking the time to comment. I saw the fight from another angle too and what happened is I grabbed his right sleeve to stop him from getting a right handed lapel grip. He also grabbed my sleeve and then from 0:13 to 0:15 he makes two steps back while pulling hard on my sleeve and that's when I bend over. I probably followed him too much and may be I could have standed side ways more or something so he didn't get the second grip, but honestly when he pulled me I wasn't able to stay in place at all. Do you have a suggestion on what I should have done to stay more upright when he pulled on my sleeve? What happened is certainly the worst thing that can happen so I'm open to ideas because I'm bent over too often and it's a terrible habit.

It was also against a lefty, which for most people is a difficult matchup. You have to keep your arm on your side. Don't reach out and get extended. Right vs. left in judo, get your right hand on him first (for the righty, flipped for the lefty of course), then worry about the sleeve. Lefty players attacks initiate from their left side, so get your hand on that side first. You reach with your left which is leaning in the direction of all of his forward throws.

It's hard. Just practice it, be disciplined with your gripping and posture. No shortcuts.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice

swmmrmanshen posted:

It's hard. Just practice it, be disciplined with your gripping and posture. No shortcuts.

I'm late to the party here, but I watched the videos this afternoon and this was my biggest takeaway as well. You seemed more than happy to let the other guy dictate the grips and pull you around the mat (I realize that this was in part because you were fighting bigger guys). If a guy gets you chasing him he already has your kuzushi and can throw you whenever he wants. Your defense and mat skills were good enough that it didn't burn you here. But against guys with strong gripping you'll get thrown for Ippon before you get the chance to take it to the mat. Plus you can't get your own techniques in if you are being dragged around the Tatami.

Thoguh fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 25, 2013

wedgie deliverer
Oct 2, 2010

Let me say this up front to avoid any accusations of awfulness - the training camp in this video looks awesome in every way. But the caption at 1:10 describing BJJ as a sport developed by buddhist monks? This video's history of BJJ is pretty hilarious, thought not totally wrong, I think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B7kzjvHOOI

Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on't
Is, I know how to curse.

swmmrmanshen posted:

Let me say this up front to avoid any accusations of awfulness - the training camp in this video looks awesome in every way. But the caption at 1:10 describing BJJ as a sport developed by buddhist monks? This video's history of BJJ is pretty hilarious, thought not totally wrong, I think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B7kzjvHOOI

Sweet mother of god, the comments :stare:

HondaCivet
Oct 16, 2005

And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know


swmmrmanshen posted:

Let me say this up front to avoid any accusations of awfulness - the training camp in this video looks awesome in every way. But the caption at 1:10 describing BJJ as a sport developed by buddhist monks? This video's history of BJJ is pretty hilarious, thought not totally wrong, I think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B7kzjvHOOI

All martial arts were created by monks. I thought that was pretty common knowledge? :rolleyes:

:v:

Ashenai posted:

Sweet mother of god, the comments :stare:

You should know better than to read YouTube comments.

dokomoy
May 21, 2004

HondaCivet posted:

All martial arts were created by monks. I thought that was pretty common knowledge? :rolleyes:



Don't be ridiculous. Every martial art originated in ancient Greece, they were then improved by monks and finally after never actually training a day in his life Helio found the missing leverage points that thousands of people training for thousands of years had missed.

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

Thoguh posted:

I'm late to the party here, but I watched the videos this afternoon and this was my biggest takeaway as well. You seemed more than happy to let the other guy dictate the grips and pull you around the mat (I realize that this was in part because you were fighting bigger guys). If a guy gets you chasing him he already has your kuzushi and can throw you whenever he wants. Your defense and mat skills were good enough that it didn't burn you here. But against guys with strong gripping you'll get thrown for Ippon before you get the chance to take it to the mat. Plus you can't get your own techniques in if you are being dragged around the Tatami.

Thx, I was hoping to get your input on this.

How do you guys suggest I work on this?

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008
It's a tough question to answer, cause encouraging people to focus more on gripping tends to get them thinking about the wrong things. Succeeding at gripfighting means finding the angles that defeat your opponent's grips, and that's an extension of kuzushi and tai sabaki. So like, the classic line is "find a way to lock down their main hand, and then get a neck or high lapel grip and throw" but that oversimplifies and completely ignores the tension/momentum, so a more realistic (but probably less satisfying) answer is "learn Aikido."

Anyway, I think that if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to focus on extending your spine. For one thing, 90% of the time the guy with the straighter back wins the exchange, even if the other guy can pull him around a bit. For another, that might take your brain out of your arms and draw it down towards your hip where it belongs. Curious to see what others think of this question too.

CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 28, 2013

The 19th Person
Sep 26, 2010

The devious DARKBRINGER plans to dominate first Lightbringer, and then the entire Midwest!
This question is more curiosity than anything else, since I already found a judo school I'm interested in joining once something in my schedule clears up. When I first started looking at possible martial arts to try, the first thing that caught my eye was aikido. A bit of research seemed to show that it fit more as a performance art than a fighting style and it wouldn't be very useful, so I switched gears. It is only later I stumbled on the fact that aikido was based on daito-ryu aikijujutsu, removing strikes and more offensive aspects, or at least that is the gist I got. Is aikijujutsu effective where aikido is not, or are they in a similar boat?

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

The 19th Person posted:

This question is more curiosity than anything else, since I already found a judo school I'm interested in joining once something in my schedule clears up. When I first started looking at possible martial arts to try, the first thing that caught my eye was aikido. A bit of research seemed to show that it fit more as a performance art than a fighting style and it wouldn't be very useful, so I switched gears. It is only later I stumbled on the fact that aikido was based on daito-ryu aikijujutsu, removing strikes and more offensive aspects, or at least that is the gist I got. Is aikijujutsu effective where aikido is not, or are they in a similar boat?

They're pretty much the same thing except Aikido has even more dumb bullshit pacifism idealogy tacked on.

Even from a historical/traditional standpoint, judo is significantly older than aikijujutsu and they actually spar and compete and all that good stuff that makes a martial art useful.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Mechafunkzilla posted:

they actually spar and compete and all that good stuff that makes a martial art useful.

Erh. Define 'useful', please. There's far more to martial arts than competing.

Novum
May 26, 2012

That's how we roll

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Erh. Define 'useful', please. There's far more to martial arts than competing.

I define a useful martial art as one you could conceivably actually defend yourself with some modicum of success.

If you find meditating in pajamas and contemplating the efficacy of disarming 5 guys with knives and guns to be more fruitful then I suppose your definition of a useful martial art would change to reflect that.

Senor P.
Mar 27, 2006
I MUST TELL YOU HOW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT STUFF I DONT AND BE A COMPLETE CUNT ABOUT IT

The 19th Person posted:

This question is more curiosity than anything else, since I already found a judo school I'm interested in joining once something in my schedule clears up. When I first started looking at possible martial arts to try, the first thing that caught my eye was aikido. A bit of research seemed to show that it fit more as a performance art than a fighting style and it wouldn't be very useful, so I switched gears. It is only later I stumbled on the fact that aikido was based on daito-ryu aikijujutsu, removing strikes and more offensive aspects, or at least that is the gist I got. Is aikijujutsu effective where aikido is not, or are they in a similar boat?

Daito Ryu isn't any more effective than Aikido and vice versa. What it really comes down to is today's practicioners and even the students of the founders of both of these never really reached their skill level.

However is this due to not putting in enough training time? Not enough time training solo? Teachers not actually teaching their students, directly? Passing off some key detail in plain sight? (Ahh its just an old fart doing some warm ups, I don't need to do that poo poo. Teach me a technique of the day!)

There's a few folks who are trying to re-integrate these body skills back into Daito Ryu and Aikido, but by and large mediocre people who can't bother to get out and cross train will remain mediocre. Those that were good before, will continue to get better.

quote:

Even from a historical/traditional standpoint, judo is significantly older than aikijujutsu and they actually spar and compete and all that good stuff that makes a martial art useful.
What is your definition of significantly older?

Kano started teaching Judo in what, 1880? Ueshiba started teaching around the 1920s and Takeda I think around 1900ish? 20-40 years isn't that long when you consider the other systems at that time period that had been around for hundreds of years prior. Not even to mention sumo which is a martial art/sport that has been around for several hundred years.

But poo poo that doesn't even compare to say the history of ethnic forms of wrestling across the world. Maybe I'm nitpicking too much, but I don't feel that 20-40 years is that long when looking at martial arts from a historical standpoint. Although teaching and training that long is certainly a life time.

Senor P. fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Apr 30, 2013

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Erh. Define 'useful', please. There's far more to martial arts than competing.

If you try to use a technique that you've learned in class on an opponent who is genuinely resisting, and it works, it's useful. If it works on a skilled opponent, it's beyond useful, it's good. If it only works in class, it's performance art.

CivilDisobedience
Dec 27, 2008

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Erh. Define 'useful', please. There's far more to martial arts than competing.

I think 'useful' in this sense just means 'effective in both attack and defense.' It's great to learn to harmonize with an opponent's energy and maintain the perfect defense, but a smart opponent will find a way to turn that impenetrable fortress into a prison, and they will eventually starve you out.

So, what do you do when you're forced to fight? Well, that's where competition comes in- it simulates an environment where you must succeed by making effective attacks, you can't win by stalling or defending. This is a really important training tool, because it's how people learn that harmonizing with an opponent's energy is good, but letting them dictate tempo is not.

In chess it's said that defending just means losing slowly, and the same applies to fighting. If you really want to end conflicts without violence, you have to be able to make the first move. Waiting for your opponent to attack will always put you a step behind.

CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Apr 30, 2013

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ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Hmmm, so no kyudo, kenjutsu, etc?. It's all just fluff?.
I'm curious...how many martial artists have actually 'used' their martial art outside the mat/dojo/ring?.

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