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Holy poo poo, France really really really loves the Bonpartist party in my game. Constant 90 - 100% victories. It's pretty nice though because the party is pretty good for what I want at the moment.
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May 7, 2013 03:28
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Wolfgang Pauli posted:Leopold was vilified in his own time. I mean, harsh treatment of natives would get condemnation back at home, but this was more than just politics and impotent rage. It was one of the biggest disgraces of the day. Didn't people at the time think that Africans were, like, lower than Europeans on the evolutionary ladder, though? I'm surprised there would be so much humanitarian outrage over Leopold's atrocities. It's a bit off-topic, but one of the most fascinating facts I ever learned about Africa was that people there have more genetic diversity than on any other continent. I guess it goes hand-in-hand with being the birthplace of humanity, and therefore being the place where people would have the most time to diversify genetically. Like there's more of a difference between two given African ethnic groups than there is between Europeans and East Asians, if I recall correctly. Amazing stuff! EDIT: Ah here it is: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2009-05-01/news/36836404_1_genetic-makeup-sarah-tishkoff-africans DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 03:43 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 03:36
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I think even in the 17th or 18th centuries there was some degree of outrage over exploitation of natives in the Americas.
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May 7, 2013 03:56
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When Heart of Darkness (the book, obviously) was published, there was at least a small outrage over the colonial policies and a lot of criticisms lobbied against Belgium. The outrage was mostly in the press and it's not like anyone ultimately did much about the atrocities committed.
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May 7, 2013 03:57
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And in a lot of cases the outrage was more along the lines of "They're unfairly exploiting the natives (that we want to unfairly exploit)!"
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May 7, 2013 04:07
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I got the heart of Darkness Expansion and have been loving it so far. I'm playing a westernised china game because everybody mentioned just how badly they break the world when you do it. It took 5 years from westernising to becoming the top great power and taking on Russia, GB, and Austria in a Crisis war. The only trouble I'm having is I can't seem to add wargoals. My allies have been doing just fine (prussia looks to be getting ready to form greater Germany when the war ends), and the Ottomans have added several war goals of their own, but I haven't been able to add any. It just says the war isn't going that well despite Russia being almost completely occupied and India almost completely falling to my armies. Any ideas on how to get war goals added? or is it a Crisis issue. Otherwise loving the additions to army comps and westernising as an unciv.
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May 7, 2013 04:35
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DrSunshine posted:Didn't people at the time think that Africans were, like, lower than Europeans on the evolutionary ladder, though? I'm surprised there would be so much humanitarian outrage over Leopold's atrocities. Well, keep in mind that a fair amount of the justification for colonization to begin with was the whole white man's burden - the civilizing mission to uplift the poor, benighted savage into the modern world. Most of it is worthless faff, of course, but while it's possible to believe that you're civilizing the native by bringing them into an economic system that happens to benefit yourself, it gets REALLY hard to believe in the white man's burden when the white man is cutting off hands for bounty and literally working people to death. Also, I'm not sure about Europe, but America around that time was going through a religious revival and as such would have been particularly sensitive to issues related to morality (I understand a fair amount of the early exposures of the Congo came from various horrified missionaries).
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May 7, 2013 05:51
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Has anyone tried cranking up the AI aggressiveness settings in defines.lua to see how crazy the world might get?
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May 7, 2013 06:05
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Trying to get a friend of mine into paradox stuff. Anybody have a spare Chronicles code still sitting around?
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May 7, 2013 06:09
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OK, the Abu Dhabi pic I posted earlier with it being 16% Bureaucrat? Well, Yemen was 18% Bureaucrat, and 0.0% Clergy. Dammit, Yemen, don't you know that clerics do all your research for you? EDIT: Thanks to the addition of Yemen, my country (my whole Arabian peninsula plus some of Oman's old African holdings) is 5% Bureaucrats. I'm going to go bankrupt and it's all Yemen's fault. 
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May 7, 2013 06:56
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Afghanistan was 4% Soldier until Persia decided to invade me. Luckily their Sikh allies refused to join their war so I just puppeted them instead. Now it's 1% Soldier 
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May 7, 2013 07:04
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DrSunshine posted:Didn't people at the time think that Africans were, like, lower than Europeans on the evolutionary ladder, though? I'm surprised there would be so much humanitarian outrage over Leopold's atrocities. See also Chinese Gordon. He spent virtually his entire life among "Asiatics", both during the Taiping Rebellion and in service of the Khedive in Khartoum, yet he never considered them to be his equal. His opinion of Ismael Pasha, who considered himself to be European, is particularly telling. The Khedive acted the part well and Gordon recognized all the trappings and culture, but there was still some feeling that the Khedive was just a pretender. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:When Heart of Darkness (the book, obviously) was published, there was at least a small outrage over the colonial policies and a lot of criticisms lobbied against Belgium. The outrage was mostly in the press and it's not like anyone ultimately did much about the atrocities committed. Tomn posted:Well, keep in mind that a fair amount of the justification for colonization to begin with was the whole white man's burden - the civilizing mission to uplift the poor, benighted savage into the modern world. Most of it is worthless faff, of course, but while it's possible to believe that you're civilizing the native by bringing them into an economic system that happens to benefit yourself, it gets REALLY hard to believe in the white man's burden when the white man is cutting off hands for bounty and literally working people to death. Also, I'm not sure about Europe, but America around that time was going through a religious revival and as such would have been particularly sensitive to issues related to morality (I understand a fair amount of the early exposures of the Congo came from various horrified missionaries).
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May 7, 2013 07:05
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Patter Song posted:OK, the Abu Dhabi pic I posted earlier with it being 16% Bureaucrat? Well, Yemen was 18% Bureaucrat, and 0.0% Clergy. Just cut administrative funding, it'll solve both your problems.
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May 7, 2013 07:30
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Tomn posted:Well, keep in mind that a fair amount of the justification for colonization to begin with was the whole white man's burden - the civilizing mission to uplift the poor, benighted savage into the modern world. Most of it is worthless faff, of course, but while it's possible to believe that you're civilizing the native by bringing them into an economic system that happens to benefit yourself, it gets REALLY hard to believe in the white man's burden when the white man is cutting off hands for bounty and literally working people to death. Also, I'm not sure about Europe, but America around that time was going through a religious revival and as such would have been particularly sensitive to issues related to morality (I understand a fair amount of the early exposures of the Congo came from various horrified missionaries). It's important to remember that white man's burden wasn't so much a justification used in-process as an excuse when people complained. It would have happened anyway, it was just one more thing to hide behind.
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May 7, 2013 07:33
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I realise this is less Paradox related, but people in the thread are obviously well-informed of the background of these games: what was the impetus behind the end of the slave trade/slavery in general throughout Europe? The works of a few humanitarians who could argue that slavery was inhumane, or the realisation that slavery was impractical, which later had the humanitarian lens put on it for moral high ground? The general way Africans were treated (that is, as an inferior race) throughout the Victorian era makes me wonder what happened to change the perception from "Africans are sub-human and we should be able to own them" to "Africans are sub-human but we should at least try to Christianize/civilize them".
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May 7, 2013 08:15
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Wow, communist rebellions can be insane, after years of Bonapartist rule I jacked up the taxes and tarrifs to max, and ended up with 200 battallions in Paris alone and another 200 - 300 along the rest of the nation. As a question, is there any way to stop England from getting all of Africa? The amount of colonial power they ahve is absolutely astounding.
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May 7, 2013 08:23
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Evil Agita posted:Trying to get a friend of mine into paradox stuff. Anybody have a spare Chronicles code still sitting around? I've got one, PM me.
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May 7, 2013 08:33
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The Narrator posted:I realise this is less Paradox related, but people in the thread are obviously well-informed of the background of these games: what was the impetus behind the end of the slave trade/slavery in general throughout Europe? The works of a few humanitarians who could argue that slavery was inhumane, or the realisation that slavery was impractical, which later had the humanitarian lens put on it for moral high ground? The general way Africans were treated (that is, as an inferior race) throughout the Victorian era makes me wonder what happened to change the perception from "Africans are sub-human and we should be able to own them" to "Africans are sub-human but we should at least try to Christianize/civilize them". Impracticality had a lot to do with it. As europe moved to a more factory based economy slaves became impractical. You had to pay for their housing and food and they werent working any land so paying poor people crap wages to work in your factory was actually much cheaper. This was an impetus that the "Slavery is immoral" types could make use of because the rich people no longer cared.
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May 7, 2013 08:39
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RagnarokAngel posted:Impracticality had a lot to do with it. As europe moved to a more factory based economy slaves became impractical. You had to pay for their housing and food and they werent working any land so paying poor people crap wages to work in your factory was actually much cheaper. This was an impetus that the "Slavery is immoral" types could make use of because the rich people no longer cared. For the European empires, the fact that the slave owners were themselves distant and othered to a large extent helped the process. British sugar plantation owners from the West Indies who came home filthy rich and somewhat Caribbeanized were hated by the old elite sort: Edmund Burke hated the hell out of slavery because it was getting all the wrong kinds of people rich and powerful, the same reason he hated the British East India Company. Look at, for example, how Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre is treated as somewhat shady and morally suspect even before everyone learns that he has his crazy wife locked in the attic: he's a man who made his money in the West Indies and was "degraded" by the Caribbean lifestyle. The interests hurt by the abolition of slavery in the UK didn't have a very appealing domestic face, especially once the transatlantic slave trade ended, because at least that was something that manifestly did create jobs and business at home (for sailors and such). Also, unlike the US Congress, Trinidad and Barbados and Jamaica didn't have a say in Parliament.
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May 7, 2013 08:56
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Clapham Omnibus posted:No need to hand over that land, let the Ottomans capture a few provinces and France should intervene on your side eventually, then you can bring the fight to the Ottomans. It does depend on the GPs actually landing troops, which I hear they are better at with the beta patch. Guess I should buddy up with the French then, would be nice to have some assistance in that war. Still, aren't you then stuck with that huge research malus until 1860 when the crisis finally ends? Guess I should give it another go, I'm pretty sure I've become a better player since my last Egypt game.Clapham Omnibus posted:Eventually you end up with something like this though:
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May 7, 2013 09:24
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I really love Victoria 2 with its expansions and NNM, but the lategame can be such a drag. Oh boy another great war, time for all of my meaningless African possessions to get occupied for negligible warscore while I play whack-an-army with Russia and Britain's infinitely many 5-brigade stacks besieging all my provinces behind the frontline. I like great wars because they always shake up the political landscape (at least with NNM which adds the ability to dismantle empires and gives a whole load of militancy to the nations which lose), but I hate having to micromanage my thousand-brigade army. I'd kill for an AI control feature like HoI3.
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May 7, 2013 11:37
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Wolfgang Pauli posted:They definitely thought they were lesser, but they're still human. I mean, Social Darwinism was justifying the poor as being evolutionarily unfit at the same time and there were plenty of movements in support of them. Likewise with the American Anti-Imperialist League. Even in the most conservative realms of society, treating even lesser people like poo poo was frowned upon as unchristian and ungentlemanly -- such as Stanley's first expedition where he basically fought his way across the Congo. The whole reason Leopold went to Africa, as far as the public knew, was to civilize Africa: end the slave trade and bring Christianity to the ungodly people there. Instead he turned it into a nightmare where human life was utterly without value; a nightmare on scale totally unthinkable to the European public. Exactly. The idea of Darwinism came about and people were able to read it in a million different ways. One of the products of this was their application of it to society, which led almost directly to eugenicist thought. However, you also had people applying Darwinian ideas to society as a whole, and considering evolution in purely social terms (i.e. all humans are equally human, but their level of social evolution determines their level of civility/savagery). So in effect you had a fairly significant debate (that in fairness actually pre-dated Darwin), as to whether a 'savage' taken at birth and raised as a European would amount to a perfectly normal civilised gentleman or would remain in a state more common to his birth. So yes, 'savages' were considered lower on the evolutionary spectrum that Europeans almost universally, but people differed on whether this was a biological issue or a social one. The civilising benefits of European colonialism were obvious to those holding the latter view, but even the former implied support for Western intervention in order to alter the environment of the 'savage' and therefore accelerate their biological progression to truly civilised moral and social agents.
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May 7, 2013 12:13
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That was specially amusing in Brazil, where we implemented the whitening. The idea was to support interracial marriage in order to make Afro-Brazilians whiter, since the superior white blood clearly would dominate, and thus the "black problem" would be solved in a few generations. :brazil: Oh, also a new version of The Imperialist Adventures of Srbja & Friends! Should be save compatible, though the balance changes won't be active except in a new game.  May 7th Checksum: VBWQ -Changed the colour of Japan back to glorious red; -Major re-balance in North Africa; -Changed several spheres of influence; -Added many new naval bases to South America and Asia; -AI should now be more inclined to colonize; -Shameful bugs corrected;
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May 7, 2013 12:37
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Bugs? Nay, sino-kroat sabotage!
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May 7, 2013 12:39
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ZearothK posted:That was specially amusing in Brazil, where we implemented the whitening. The idea was to support interracial marriage in order to make Afro-Brazilians whiter, since the superior white blood clearly would dominate, and thus the "black problem" would be solved in a few generations. :brazil: Is the clay there. This is important.
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May 7, 2013 12:43
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BBJoey posted:I really love Victoria 2 with its expansions and NNM, but the lategame can be such a drag. Oh boy another great war, time for all of my meaningless African possessions to get occupied for negligible warscore while I play whack-an-army with Russia and Britain's infinitely many 5-brigade stacks besieging all my provinces behind the frontline. I like great wars because they always shake up the political landscape (at least with NNM which adds the ability to dismantle empires and gives a whole load of militancy to the nations which lose), but I hate having to micromanage my thousand-brigade army. I'd kill for an AI control feature like HoI3. It's finals time so I'm unable to get back into Victoria 2, but it seems like Great Wars need a heavy cooldown timer attached to them- World War II starting up earlier somehow is fine, World War V is not. As for your army point, I've got my fingers crossed that there'll be a World War I expansion to flesh out the late game and other features. Honestly, I just want a WWI scenario- the Victoria Improvement Project never got around to making one, and Darkest Hour is too military-intensive.
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May 7, 2013 12:52
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Necroneocon posted:Is the clay there. This is important. The Kroats stole our clay during their mass deportation to Kroatstralia. They believe to have had the last laugh, it is your mission to wipe that smile from their face.
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May 7, 2013 13:15
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ZearothK posted:The Kroats stole our clay during their mass deportation to Kroatstralia. They believe to have had the last laugh, it is your mission to wipe that smile from their face.
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May 7, 2013 13:32
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BBJoey posted:You should make clay a Srbja-only rare resource that's uncovered like gold, precious metals and oil in a special event. Of course, Srbja gets a free casus belli on any non-Srb who has stolen the precious clay. You tempt me. So far I've been quite focused on the rest of the world, and have neglected making decisions and events for our protagonist. Provided no major issue comes up next update should be all about Srbzysthan.
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May 7, 2013 13:37
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Is the 2gb fix standard in Vicky 2 now, or is my computer just unable to handle PDM?
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May 7, 2013 14:49
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So if Ck2 and EU3 are going to be on the same engines (I know with vast differences). Does that mean we could eventually see all the games on the same engine? Potentially making campaigns travel through all four games easy to do?
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May 7, 2013 16:55
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Krataar posted:So if Ck2 and EU3 are going to be on the same engines (I know with vast differences). Does that mean we could eventually see all the games on the same engine? Potentially making campaigns travel through all four games easy to do? The problem isn't really a matter of engines so much as of different mechanics and data, which means that scenario information a game needs often isn't available in the previous one (e.g. EU to Victoria - no pops!) and some things have to be fudged, with varying results. Honestly, I think megacampaigns will always have to involve a lot of scenario building, with automated converters mostly giving you a foundation to build on and cutting the worst tedium of assigning every province etc. by hand.
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May 7, 2013 17:10
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Krataar posted:So if Ck2 and EU3 are going to be on the same engines (I know with vast differences). Does that mean we could eventually see all the games on the same engine? Potentially making campaigns travel through all four games easy to do? Having them on the same engine might make converters easier to make, but they've always been a pain in the rear end. The best I ever experienced was going from V1 to HoI2, it's the only "successful" conversion I've ever had. I'd looooove it if paradox them selves had a decent CK2 to EU4 converter built in. Hell I'd gladly pay full-price for expansions that just add in reliable conversion, specially with a "tweaker" to let you correct and fiddle with the conversion process. To play CK2, then convert to an EU4 game, then convert to V2 would be absolutely amazing. Spend CK2 freeing Bohemia from the HRE and create an empire of its own, spend EU4 converting all my provinces from polish or german to Czech and getting access to the Baltic sea and colonizing key areas, then V2 reaping the rewards of a huge ethnically unified central european juggernaut. I would pay $20 each for these converters! I think a lot of people would buy such add-ons.
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May 7, 2013 17:16
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Baronjutter posted:Having them on the same engine might make converters easier to make, but they've always been a pain in the rear end. The best I ever experienced was going from V1 to HoI2, it's the only "successful" conversion I've ever had. Yeah, converting from Vicky I to HoI2 was pretty much just a matter of copying over the savegame file and then loading it. You'll still have a lot of work to do if you want the end result to be an actually interesting scenario, like creating ministers and leaders, setting techs, and adjusting names, borders, and OOBs, but a Vicky/Ricky endgame save will load in Hearts of Iron 2 and play just fine. Also agreeing that I would definitely, happily pay money for official scenario converter/editor tools.
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May 7, 2013 17:52
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Krataar posted:I got the heart of Darkness Expansion and have been loving it so far. I'm playing a westernised china game because everybody mentioned just how badly they break the world when you do it. It took 5 years from westernising to becoming the top great power and taking on Russia, GB, and Austria in a Crisis war. The only trouble I'm having is I can't seem to add wargoals. My allies have been doing just fine (prussia looks to be getting ready to form greater Germany when the war ends), and the Ottomans have added several war goals of their own, but I haven't been able to add any. It just says the war isn't going that well despite Russia being almost completely occupied and India almost completely falling to my armies. Any ideas on how to get war goals added? or is it a Crisis issue. Otherwise loving the additions to army comps and westernising as an unciv. I haven't seen anyone answer this, so let me take a shot at it: How is your personal war against the Russians going? I believe adding a war goal needs you to have a better warscore when looking at you vs. them, one on one, not how the whole war with all allies is going. If you are personally occupying a lot of Russia or something then I don't know what the problem is, sorry.
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May 7, 2013 18:22
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Zip posted:-Also the viccy 2 beta patch crashes me out 100 percent of the time. Each time after the intro movie ends.
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May 7, 2013 18:28
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Krataar posted:I got the heart of Darkness Expansion and have been loving it so far. I'm playing a westernised china game because everybody mentioned just how badly they break the world when you do it. It took 5 years from westernising to becoming the top great power and taking on Russia, GB, and Austria in a Crisis war. The only trouble I'm having is I can't seem to add wargoals. My allies have been doing just fine (prussia looks to be getting ready to form greater Germany when the war ends), and the Ottomans have added several war goals of their own, but I haven't been able to add any. It just says the war isn't going that well despite Russia being almost completely occupied and India almost completely falling to my armies. Any ideas on how to get war goals added? or is it a Crisis issue. Otherwise loving the additions to army comps and westernising as an unciv. WeaponGradeSadness posted:I haven't seen anyone answer this, so let me take a shot at it: How is your personal war against the Russians going? I believe adding a war goal needs you to have a better warscore when looking at you vs. them, one on one, not how the whole war with all allies is going. Don't you need to have above a certain amount of support for jingoism among your population before you can add wargoals? I remember trying to add some during a war that was going really well but I couldn't due to lack of jingoism.
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May 7, 2013 19:02
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NEED TOILET PAPER posted:Don't you need to have above a certain amount of support for jingoism among your population before you can add wargoals? I remember trying to add some during a war that was going really well but I couldn't due to lack of jingoism. Yeah, although it seems to count up slowly during the war by some mysterious Victoria mechanism of which I am unaware.
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May 7, 2013 19:09
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NEED TOILET PAPER posted:Don't you need to have above a certain amount of support for jingoism among your population before you can add wargoals? I remember trying to add some during a war that was going really well but I couldn't due to lack of jingoism. Yeah, but that's a separate issue. He said it was telling him that he didn't have enough warscore to add a goal so I figured it must have been the personal warscore thing. That jingoism requirement is annoying, too. In my Persia game all I had to do was wait and it would tick up because, as Fintilgin says, "mysterious Victoria mechanism," but in my new Mexico game it ticks up about .3 points, and then down about .3 points, and then back up about .3 points.... and so on. I'm having to slowly chip away at the US, one state every 5 years because my people are a bunch of wusses. 
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May 7, 2013 19:27
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WeaponGradeSadness posted:Yeah, but that's a separate issue. He said it was telling him that he didn't have enough warscore to add a goal so I figured it must have been the personal warscore thing. I've heard, but not confirmed, that support for jingoism goes up slightly when you win battless or sieges.
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May 7, 2013 19:35
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