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I know the big worry is about unit balance / selection since that's something that Creative Assembly hasn't talked about much at all, (although I did read somewhere that they were getting rid of single unit recruitment in favor of generals just recruiting a whole army in the field) but Rome II's already really disappointed me. They didn't get Jeff Van Dyck to do the soundtrack!  Richard Beddow's a great dude too, he did Empire/Napoleon, but I always thought Jeff was good at making really disparate, sorta authentic sounding cultural soundtracks for a variety of armies/locales, which is the sort of thing you really want in a Rome game. I was hoping after how well received Shogun 2's soundtrack was they'd keep giving him work but I guess not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7eCgmRaiKg At least they had him do some trailer music.
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May 8, 2013 04:30
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Mans posted:I think that's it really. By reskin i'm having flashbacks to the entirety of non-Greco-Roman factios being nothing more than literally the same unit but with different pants and a few "unique" units and the Greek tragedy of all armies being composed of the same hoplite\phalanx model. I want all factions to be balanced but with unique aesthetic descriptions, not the drab that was the original Rome. Just to be clear, then, what shalcar was arguing was that having 20 different swordsmen units, each of which have at most 3 stat points of difference between them, is fairly pointless and makes it harder to balance. He was arguing in favor of having one stat block for "swordsmen" units (or any other generic units, for that matter), but with each actual unit looking different and unique to their faction/region as appropriate. The tactical diversity of each faction, I gather, will come around by allowing different factions access to different stat blocks - Romans, for instance, would presumably get access to a heavy infantry stat block which Germans might lack, but don't have access to Germanic berserker or ambush infantry stat blocks, which most Germanic-culture factions would possess (with possibly some variation between Germanic factions as well to mix things up between tribes). If, however, both factions happen to share the same spearman stat block, they'll be functionally identical, but the Roman spearmen will look like Roman soldiers with helmets and skirts and all while the Germanic spearmen will look like German tribesmen with face paint, pants, and funky hair. So yeah, near as I can tell you two have been arguing in favor of the exact same thing this whole time, with the only real difference being the way you defined the word "reskinning."
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May 8, 2013 07:34
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I think I'd be happy with just unique skins, yeah. I don't know why people would really care since there's like 9 unit types already, not counting upgrades from blacksmiths and ranks. Heavy Infantry, light infantry, javelinmen, archers, generals, heavy cavalry, light cavalry, artillery, special units like wardogs and elephants (which is arguably where the biggest differences should be), and horse archers. Am I missing anything?
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May 8, 2013 07:59
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WHAT A GOOD DOG posted:I think I'd be happy with just unique skins, yeah. I don't know why people would really care since there's like 9 unit types already, not counting upgrades from blacksmiths and ranks. TRIARII! (by which I mean spearmen, especially phalanxes) Apart from that, spot on.
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May 8, 2013 08:30
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I loved M2TW because of the big huge melees you'd get in battles. You'd have a huge mash of infantry duking it out and then heavy cav doing their thing. Hammer and anvil, all that. I loved those battles, they've never gotten old. Empire I just couldn't get into because of that, at least not to the same degree. In Shogun II I thought maybe I'd get more melee mashup boogaloos, and I did, sort of. But there's just something different and strange about the infantry fights in Shogun II. Everybody feels like they're made of... paper, or something. The units don't feel like they've got any OOMPH to them. In M2TW I'll watch my line of heavy infantry charge into the enemy heavy infantry and you can *see* them smash into each other, you can almost feel it as you're trying to keep in control of the battle. Feels like a big huge pile of modeling clay that you're futzing around with. I just didn't get that feeling with Shogun II, but I sort of hope it comes back in Rome II.
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May 8, 2013 11:09
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Ragingsheep posted:I don't remember this being the case in Rome. shalcar posted:It's never been the case in any Total War ever.
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May 8, 2013 11:20
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Asehujiko posted:Which is why it's a dumb idea to add it to Rome 2 as some people are arguing. Rome 2 doesn't need a "base line" unit with minor variations for each faction like Empire because there was no generic "man with gun" unit beyond Peasants. You don't read too well do you?
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May 8, 2013 11:24
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Anyone else find they get "load time fatigue" trying to play non-old TW games? I always find myself auto-resolving to avoid a lengthy wait, which kind of defeats the point of playing these games in the first place. Are there any balance mods for Napoleon? It seems silly that a direct hit with a cannonball will kill about two infantrymen, but will kill half a unit of cavalry. It also feels dumb that you can charge a unit of line infantry with cavalry and lose the ensuing melee. It feels like cavalry are just pointless.
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May 8, 2013 12:40
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There are a few, I tried The Rights Of Man but I didn't like some of the changes myself really.
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May 8, 2013 13:07
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Gort posted:Are there any balance mods for Napoleon? It seems silly that a direct hit with a cannonball will kill about two infantrymen, but will kill half a unit of cavalry. It also feels dumb that you can charge a unit of line infantry with cavalry and lose the ensuing melee. It feels like cavalry are just pointless. I find cavalry are mainly useful for cleaning up routing armies, where they're absolutely essential. In battle, though, they're more limited - your best bet is using them to provide the tipping point against wavering line units, looking for an opportunity to get around in the rear, and keeping enemy cavalry from doing the same. I don't play many mods, but I doubt you'll find any that change up the cavalry much in that regard - this was, roughly speaking, historically accurate. The age of the decisive cavalry charge breaking all before them is pretty much over.
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May 8, 2013 13:43
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Gort posted:
You should be using your cavalry to try and take out their artillery, and vice versa. Edit: Also, I don't know why y'all are so worried about unit variety killing multiplayer balance. By now with all the DLC Shogun 2 must have north of 100 units you can choose in multiplayer, each of which has a dozen different possible upgrades. Class Warcraft fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 15:05
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It's not like arguing about unit variety is going to change CA's plans at this point, anyway. We will get what we get. Speaking of, here's something interesting from the site that I enjoy laughing at a little too much. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?599727-Greek-States-pack-Is-this-true DLC pack for three playable Greek City States, apparently? If we have this, I don't doubt there's more planned. CA responded by posting a picture of roman dice being cast, which is as close to a confirmation you can get prior to an official announcement. The source is Italian, the translation given is: "The Greek states Culture Pack adds a new playable Culture which includes 3 new playable factions in Total War: ROME II will be used in Single and Multiplayer campaign and in the battles and Custom Multiplayer. The Culture Pack adds the diplomatic Athens Greek states, the smart Epirus and Sparta formidable as playable factions. Each offers a variety of special tactical skills to achieve victories cultural and arts, and special units lethal crush enemies in battle. The states Greeks share a number of common objectives, philosophies and diplomatic aid. However, they are characterized by their fierce independence and between them show a huge variety of approaches to the challenges of civilian and military which often leads them to be in conflict with each other and the rest of the world. "
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May 8, 2013 15:20
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I think the fundamental problem with balance (Rome in particular) is that without 'push' factors on the player to attack and economic limitations that are in any way restrictive, the player is always going to show up with a full stack of legions and the only way to have balance in that circumstance is if the 'full stack' of another nation is equally powerful. Rome 2 either needs to really restrict the player's resources (if he's Rome) so that he's forced to make do with much less than what he wants, or split force limits so that the 'horde' enemies can bring much more to the field.
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May 8, 2013 15:26
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It was almost a given that they would add Sparta as an DLC seeing how popular it is, I wonder what other DLC packs there will be.
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May 8, 2013 15:29
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Alchenar posted:I think the fundamental problem with balance (Rome in particular) is that without 'push' factors on the player to attack and economic limitations that are in any way restrictive, the player is always going to show up with a full stack of legions and the only way to have balance in that circumstance is if the 'full stack' of another nation is equally powerful. Depending on the size of the map, Rome COULD technically be balanced by the fact that they've got few similar-culture allies - it might be possible that attacking one random Gallic tribe could escalate quickly into all the Gauls declaring war on an encroaching Roman force, for instance. Some sort of "unite to defend our cultural brethren from outside interference!" system, with presumably some modifiers in place so that co-opting local allies to overcome that is possible. Also, I have to admit - one thing I'm like about Rome is that I actually have some idea what a lot of these factions actually are. In Shogun, going "Oh, I'm the Shimazu clan" or whatever is sort of neat, but there's no real historical connection unless you're versed in Japanese history. Knowing that the Otomo clan is a DLC basically has me going "Well, guns are neat, I guess, but I don't really know these guys from Adam aside from their stat boosts." Knowing that Athens is a DLC, on the other hand, has me going "Dude, awesome, bringing old-fashioned democracy and imperialism to the world!" Shogun 2 was a really well-made game, but I miss being able to sneer at the audacity of the hapless barbarians or the cowardice effeminate Easterners or whatnot.
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May 8, 2013 15:38
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WHAT A GOOD DOG posted:I think I'd be happy with just unique skins, yeah. I don't know why people would really care since there's like 9 unit types already, not counting upgrades from blacksmiths and ranks. As already stated, phalanxes and regular spearmen, plus slingers. Another thing I hope is retained somehow is very different heavy infantry types, for example two handed axemen for the germans vs super armored roman legions. Maybe a "berzerker" unit that is avalable to most of the barbarian factions could cover that, especially if there is not an actual berzerk mechanic, which would allow for reskins in civilized cultures too.
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May 8, 2013 15:51
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WoodrowSkillson posted:As already stated, phalanxes and regular spearmen, plus slingers. Another thing I hope is retained somehow is very different heavy infantry types, for example two handed axemen for the germans vs super armored roman legions. Maybe a "berzerker" unit that is avalable to most of the barbarian factions could cover that, especially if there is not an actual berzerk mechanic, which would allow for reskins in civilized cultures too. Y'all are forgetting screaming women. 
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May 8, 2013 16:42
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quote:It was almost a given that they would add Sparta as an DLC seeing how popular it is, I wonder what other DLC packs there will be. I kinda like how they're doing it. Sparta by itself would be a pretty lame overcosted DLC, but "All the Greeks" sounds like decent value. Makes me wonder if they're planning more regional/cultural packs like this one or if it's just a one-off.
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May 8, 2013 18:17
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WoodrowSkillson posted:As already stated, phalanxes and regular spearmen, plus slingers. Another thing I hope is retained somehow is very different heavy infantry types, for example two handed axemen for the germans vs super armored roman legions. Maybe a "berzerker" unit that is avalable to most of the barbarian factions could cover that, especially if there is not an actual berzerk mechanic, which would allow for reskins in civilized cultures too. I think they could just use S2's system of [unit quality] + [armament] and add the factor [armor] to that. That should make it intuitive even for new players to judge what a unit is good at, but there'd still be room within those categories to tweak some minutae that experienced players can dig into. So a roman legionnaire could be classified as something like trained + handweapon/shield + heavy armor, while a berserker could be elite + two-handed weapon + no armor. Some distinct faction-specific gimmicks would round it out, like the testudo-formation for romans and phalanx-formation for the macedons.
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May 8, 2013 18:57
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Gort posted:Are there any balance mods for Napoleon? It seems silly that a direct hit with a cannonball will kill about two infantrymen, but will kill half a unit of cavalry. It also feels dumb that you can charge a unit of line infantry with cavalry and lose the ensuing melee. It feels like cavalry are just pointless. Increasing artillery casualties unbalances the game because the AI doesn't understand how to hide their units behind a ridgeline. It's already bad enough that I can destroy the AI's cavalry component in the first five minutes of the battle. Treat all cavalry as light cavalry from earlier TW games and you should be good. You shouldn't be charging anybody from the front. Keep multiple units around so that you can cycle charges and retreats. The more cavalry you have in an area, the more likely the AI will form square, which are vulnerable to infantry and artillery. I once landed a lucky round of carcass shot that legit killed an entire regiment in square. Cavalry are a support force, your infantry should be doing the heavy lifting while your horsemen prance around and cause confusion and disorder. If you are attacking a fresh and unengaged infantry unit, use wedge and diamond formation after they're invented, they give you a flat bonus to charging, even if they look weird. Also, be careful when charging the side of an infantry fight. Your cavalry will bowl over your own men when they're in the "charging" animation. Don't ever charge through the back of your own men, unless they're truly worthless troops. Here's a run-down: Hussars/Dragoons/Chevauxleger/etc. Destroy enemy cavalry and artillery, charge infantry after they're engaged. Functionally identical to each other, the only time when stats come into play are in long-rear end melee fights, which you want to avoid anyways. It's all about the charge. Pull back and regroup whenever you can. I don't ever use dragoons to shoot, I'm not very good with infantry  Lancers I love lancers, but they're finicky. They have an enormous charge bonus, but are fragile after that, so you can treat them like cavalry heroes from Shogun 2  . You should try to take the time to line them up before you charge, spreading them as wide as the formation they're charging. In a wedge/diamond, you will always end up splitting a unit into two, which makes it easier for follow up charges to rout them. They're fast, so they are great at counter-charging cavalry. Also, they are the only cavalry that can charge a formed infantry square. It's terrifying.Cuirassiers The only heavy cavalry. They are the only guys you can send into the front of an infantry regiment. They have much better lasting power in melee because of their sky-high defense values. They're too slow and get tired too easily to chase down cavalry or artillery, so you're better of using them to lead the charge. Light Dragoons Amazing units. Maneuvre them like light cavalry, and blast away anybody in range. Infantry is too slow to turn and face them, cavalry will melt away in a volley. The French get them in like their first barracks upgrade, and I hate it.
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May 8, 2013 20:00
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This thread has convinced me to pick up Shogun 2 by the way, I'm a huge fan of Rome (especially the Extended Greek Mod) and Medieval but lost interest in the newer ones since the time period does not grab me. Seems like they did a lot of good things with it and it's worth a try.
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May 8, 2013 20:02
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Don't forget dragoons can be dismounted and can be quite useful as fire support with your line.
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May 8, 2013 20:07
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How do you use dragoons properly anyway? It seems like if you dismount them near enough to the fight that they're able to dismount and get in formation in time to effect things, then their horses are close enough to get spooked and run away, turning them into an understrength line infantry unit.
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May 8, 2013 20:26
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Grand Prize Winner posted:How do you use dragoons properly anyway? It seems like if you dismount them near enough to the fight that they're able to dismount and get in formation in time to effect things, then their horses are close enough to get spooked and run away, turning them into an understrength line infantry unit. Positioning. Ride them out and keep them away from the main fight until a situation develops. Get them to engage the flanks and rear of an enemy already busy shooting at something else. And with Empire, get used to your dragoons turning into light infantry a lot. Bring two sets and have them work together so at least you got something when the horses go.
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May 8, 2013 20:49
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I am just plain awful at the Shogun 2 campaign map, seems like I never have enough money to support a big enough army to cover all of my factions' borders in the early going. In Medieval 2 I was routinely able to play on very hard mode, but it seems like in Shogun 2 I've had to notch it down to Easy.
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May 8, 2013 21:01
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From what the developers have said, it looks like a unit's stats are going to basically be based off of their equipment and their level of training - so I guess two veteran spearman units will probably be the same, but a veteran spear unit and a veteran sword unit are going to have slight differences. The type of shield will matter too, with big shields giving additional armor but less melee defense, and smaller shields giving less armor but more melee defense.
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May 8, 2013 21:11
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SheepNameKiller posted:I am just plain awful at the Shogun 2 campaign map, seems like I never have enough money to support a big enough army to cover all of my factions' borders in the early going. In Medieval 2 I was routinely able to play on very hard mode, but it seems like in Shogun 2 I've had to notch it down to Easy. The big thing to note is that unless you have access to gold mines or trade goods, farms are your single best source of income (as long as they're in fertile provinces). When conquering provinces, make sure the province is of reasonable fertility - fertile and very fertile provinces are gems worth fighting for, average is, well, average, while meager and barren provinces are probably better off being released as a vassal for trade income and tribute unless the province is strategically important for whatever reason (since more provinces add an administration penalty to your tax rate, which means that taking a poor province can actually REDUCE your overall income). Early on you won't want to be picky, but once you've got five or six provinces you can start being more selective about what you annex. You'll also want to hire metsuke, too - if they oversee a city, they can increase its effective tax rate, boosting your income. All that being said, the money you make from farming is peanuts compared to what you can get if you establish a trade monopoly, but the odds of successfully pulling that off are slim if you don't start near Kyushu (the western island). Even if you did manage to get good trade income, you'll want the more stable guarantee of farm taxation anyways eventually.
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May 8, 2013 21:12
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That's all really good advice, thanks. I didn't even know where to start when it came to minmaxing revenue.
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May 8, 2013 21:14
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Grand Prize Winner posted:How do you use dragoons properly anyway? It seems like if you dismount them near enough to the fight that they're able to dismount and get in formation in time to effect things, then their horses are close enough to get spooked and run away, turning them into an understrength line infantry unit. Usually they are not so hot, but if you play some of the mods that allow you to have 40 units per battle having a mobile reserve actually becomes important because the battles rage across the whole map.
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May 8, 2013 23:23
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So there is a video of a thing, about a new thing, which is confirmation of an older thing: http://www.shacknews.com/game/total-war-rome-ii/videos/15284/total-war-rome-ii-greek-states-culture-pack-trailer Nice!
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May 9, 2013 00:04
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Choccy Starfish posted:So there is a video of a thing, about a new thing, which is confirmation of an older thing: Oh god, I am so doing my first campaign as Sparta. gently caress Rome.
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May 9, 2013 00:12
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SheepNameKiller posted:That's all really good advice, thanks. I didn't even know where to start when it came to minmaxing revenue. Shalcar's Rise of the Samurai LP is extremely informative if you want to play ROTS (he includes an economic empire-building plan and the analysis underlying it, for example). He has stated he will be doing vanilla once this one is complete.
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May 9, 2013 01:32
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Sept 3rd? They're actually moving the date up on top of announcing a bunch of free DLC? For such an expansive game, development must be coming along pretty drat smoothly on their end.quote:Oh god, I am so doing my first campaign as Sparta. gently caress Rome. I have no idea who I'm going to play first, they all look awesome. I'll have to let the selection screen convince me at the last possible second. madmac fucked around with this message at 02:12 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 01:48
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madmac posted:Sept 3rd? They're actually moving the date up on top of announcing a bunch of free DLC? For such an expansive game, development must be coming along pretty drat smoothly on their end. I think the Sept 3rd date was in relation to the pre-orders becoming available, it says "Release: Dec 31, 2013" above the video. e: that seems quite odd and very placeholder-y of a release date, though
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May 9, 2013 04:05
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Odobenidae posted:I think the Sept 3rd date was in relation to the pre-orders becoming available, it says "Release: Dec 31, 2013" above the video. December 31 is often used as a placeholder for release dates. So I'd assume it's just that.
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May 9, 2013 04:20
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Odobenidae posted:I think the Sept 3rd date was in relation to the pre-orders becoming available, it says "Release: Dec 31, 2013" above the video. Yeah, Dec 31 is just there because until now, the only release info we had was Q4 2013. No publisher in their right mind would release a game immediately AFTER the Christmas rush. As far as I know, that video basically confirms the full release date to be September 3rd, with pre-orders being available right now.
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May 9, 2013 04:29
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The Athenian soldiers aren't wearing hoplite shields, does that mean they actually researched Greek army composition and added in some Thureo units? Dear god that would be amazing.
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May 9, 2013 05:14
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Hargrimm posted:Yeah, Dec 31 is just there because until now, the only release info we had was Q4 2013. No publisher in their right mind would release a game immediately AFTER the Christmas rush. As far as I know, that video basically confirms the full release date to be September 3rd, with pre-orders being available right now. Does anybody have any idea when it will be available for pre-order on Steam?
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May 9, 2013 05:21
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Oh wow, $60.  I thought Shogun 2 had been cheaper when it released?VVV Heh, alright then. When I first noticed it had been released, it was $30, hence my confusion. And yeah, I'll still wait for goon reviews just in case, even though I know it will end up being a Great Game. Azran fucked around with this message at 06:08 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 05:41
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Azran posted:Oh wow, $60. Shogun 2 was $60 at release. I thought it was worth every penny!
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