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Endorph posted:Okay I don't mean to be rude but I'm pretty sure you didn't 'get' F/SN. Like, on any level. That's a little harsh. I'm sorry  Silver2195 posted:You are, as far as I know, the only person in the world to like Fate better than either of the other two routes. Ibram Gaunt posted:What bummed you out about the true ending? I guess it depends on if the other paths would have seen the end of the holy grail wars or not. I would think since Tohsaka could report to the council about the sludge grail or the Akiraaaaa grail they would realize these things are going poorly and knock it off but if it only takes the use of the swirl of the origin to get their attention and the return of the sorcerer to calm them down afterwards then I guess it was worth it on a global scale. It's just that on the personal scale it did not feel worth it. His terrible decisions were agonizing. He sacrificed too much and bet everything on the hope that she wouldn't immediately slash her wrists once she regained control and was aware of what she did. And he was told by her and by everyone that she wouldn't have wanted to live with that guilt. But she does somehow. Also he's driving his fake body by remote control from "somewhere", now? They treat him simultaneously like he's less than ("but he won't get any better") and more than ("he could access the reality marble if he works hard") what he used to be, it's confusing and I don't know how to feel about it. And if saber had to die she could have been redeemed first but nope to the darkness she returns. Possibly forever? Who knows. Maybe she'll stab Sir Bedevere when nobody calls her for the next round. Nate RFB posted:Superficially speaking, Heaven's Feel represents Shirou more or less abandoning his ideals for the sake of one person. That's why it has to come last, as well as after UBW. The consequences and weight of such a decision had to be made clear first. Had to go find this from a few pages back. I see that, but it wasn't worth it. UBW was him seeing the consequences of holding those ideals, becoming a guardian and having his soul erode until he's his own arch villain, but the instant he drops them everything goes to poo poo. Which is right? Are they both wrong? What do I feel seeing two mass murderers forgive each other and decide to cook for each other forever? I am not a good critic. I don't like any of these reasons. I don't want to defend any of these opinions. I just didn't enjoy it. I was enjoying it but then I didn't enjoy it at all and I kept not enjoying it. It's over now and I'm left feeling that, like how Endorph says, I just didn't get it. I get lots of other stuff... e: I can't say that parts of the last three or so days weren't great, it's just that at the end looking back I didn't enjoy the entire gestalt of the arc. Krinkle fucked around with this message at 05:37 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 04:26
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Krinkle posted:What do I feel seeing two mass murderers forgive each other and decide to cook for each other forever? OK, that's a genuinely good line. quote:Which is right? Are they both wrong? I don't think there's supposed to be an easy answer here. I think UBW Shirou's view is better, but I feel that the point is that whatever Shirou does, it won't be the absolute right thing, even though he's still better than the rest of us.
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May 9, 2013 04:39
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The conclusion we are meant to draw at the end of UBW is that ultimately Shirou's ideals will not offer him salvation. He may wind up saving a poo poo load of people, but it will be at the cost of his own happiness. Those two routes collectively expose how broken he is. This is why in the bonus Tiger Dojo thing, Taiga and Ilya state that (paraphrasing) Fate and UBW collectively ask the question, "How should Shirou live his life?" And that HF is one possible answer. As for what happens after the end in UBW and Fate... Ten years later someone from the Mage's Association (a character from Fate/Zero, in fact) comes and dismantles the Great Holy Grail, ending the Holy Grail War for good just like at the end of HF. Ilya and Sakura are probably dead afterwards, but them's the breaks. Regarding Saber, she got her ending in Fate. That was her salvation. This is not a case of HF being the "true" route even if it is a lot of people's favorite. You are free to consider everything canon simultaneously, because they kind of are. This means Saber was saved at some point, even if she wasn't in HF. No need to fret. HF does not negate Fate or UBW. Finally, regarding a question you had with HF's epilogue, there's no need to think too deeply about Shirou's new body. All of the magic technobabble is really just a fancy way of saying that they grew him a new body and he needs magic to maintain it. It's only "remote controlled" in the same way the brain "remote controls" your limbs.
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May 9, 2013 04:53
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Krinkle posted:I am not a good critic. I don't like any of these reasons. I don't want to defend any of these opinions. I just didn't enjoy it. I was enjoying it but then I didn't enjoy it at all and I kept not enjoying it. It's over now and I'm left feeling that, like how Endorph says, I just didn't get it. I get lots of other stuff... For my part, as a person who enjoyed parts of Fate and UWB but did not enjoy many more parts, HF is ruling extra hard for me. I'm on day 15 and I haven't found anything that wasn't interesting or entertaining.
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May 9, 2013 04:54
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Make sure you get Sparks Liner High.  Seriously, it's one of the best fights in the entire game and I don't know why it was relegated to bad end status.
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May 9, 2013 06:01
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WickedIcon posted:Make sure you get Sparks Liner High. The things that make it a bad end are what make it a memorable fight, though. Without the element of Shirou frying his own brain it wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting. Incidentally, who are the "two great men" referred to in the Kanshou and Bakuya poem supposed to be?
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May 9, 2013 06:05
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WickedIcon posted:
That was obviously a typo they had. They meant badass end but someone screwed it up.
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May 9, 2013 06:23
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Stall_19 posted:That was obviously a typo they had. They meant badass end but someone screwed it up. It doesn't actually say Bad End, though. It just says End.
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May 9, 2013 06:26
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Actually, it's not even called a bad end by the game- the little screen after it just says "END" like with the real endings, and the Tiger Dojo is all like "man this isn't even a bad ending really it's just not perfect." I was more griping about how obtuse the way of getting to it is. Also, "two great men, shared life" is obviously supposed to refer to Shirou and Archer.
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May 9, 2013 06:27
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I was wondering why it got talked up as much as it has and is on a branch. Is it more interesting than uwb Fights? Those were really boring for me and hf has been pretty succinct in its fights so far
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May 9, 2013 06:29
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I'd put it on the same level as the Shirou and Archer fight in UBW. It's longer than, say, Nine Bullet Revolver, but it's not incredibly long.
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May 9, 2013 06:32
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Endorph posted:The best character in F/SN is alive, don't see the problem with that.  Anyway yeah Krinkle I'm not sure you really followed FSN that well, but you are at least correct that UBW is the best route. Heaven's Feel is just there for last 3 days (which are loving great EMIYA. SHIROU., and then the True End is fairly bad. The Normal End well executed but is so in your face about "this is not the proper ending lalalala" that it falls flat. Oh well, FSN's still pretty much the tops, besides maybe Steins;Gate.
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May 9, 2013 06:32
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aarstar posted:From a couple pages back. Just wondering if you ever found a place that sells the right versions of these games. I've been working my way through some of the VNs that are talked about here a lot and want to play these next but can't find a good place to buy them. I got them off the local variant of Ebay.
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May 9, 2013 07:21
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Nate RFB posted:The conclusion we are meant to draw at the end of UBW is that ultimately Shirou's ideals will not offer him salvation. He may wind up saving a poo poo load of people, but it will be at the cost of his own happiness. Those two routes collectively expose how broken he is. This is why in the bonus Tiger Dojo thing, Taiga and Ilya state that (paraphrasing) Fate and UBW collectively ask the question, "How should Shirou live his life?" And that HF is one possible answer. Note that this doesn't mean that UBW doesn't give a valid answer. The conclusion I drew from the EMIYA route is that even if he has to pay a heavy price, his ideals are still worth pursuing, as long as he realises the cost. After all, he sees pretty much the worst possible conclusion and decides to go through with it anyways, conscious of all the consequences. The penultimate lines of both versions of his chant say it all: "I have no regrets. This is the only path." and "Thus, my life needs no meaning."
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May 9, 2013 07:37
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Rodyle posted:Heaven's Feel is just there for last 3 days (which are loving great EMIYA. SHIROU., and then the True End is fairly bad.) I liked HF's True End, mostly because I really liked Rider and it's a pretty happy end for her.
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May 9, 2013 09:07
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Also Rin is God now.
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May 9, 2013 09:42
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It's said right at the start of FSN that you can't save everyone. 
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May 9, 2013 10:16
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Basically, if you want to see what Mind of Steel would entail (which is the antithesis to the rest of HF), you should watch Fate/Zero and wee how happy that path made Kiritsugu Emiya.
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May 9, 2013 12:00
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Ultimately, Shirou's ideals at the start of FSN are a mistake. They are a mistake because he's basically a huge case of Survivor Guilt, which made him continue Kiritsugu's legacy without really believing in it himself. When really all Kiritsugu wanted was for him to be happy, so that Kiritsugu could have saved at least one person despite his actions in the previous grail war. In UBW, Shirou makes Kiritsugu's ideals his own, while in HF's proper endings he realises Kiritsugu's genuine wish and ceases his atonement for his adoptive father's sins. Mind of Steel is a bad ending, because Shirou continues to act like Kiritsugu, bound up in regret and guilt, without really understanding why, ultimately leading to his own destruction.
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May 9, 2013 12:44
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Reminalt posted:I liked HF's True End, mostly because I really liked Rider and it's a pretty happy end for her. To be honest, there's basically no reason why the Normal End would ever happen except that there needs to be a sad ending for whatever reason. It's been established prior that Ilya's going to die anyways, and that what she does in the True End isn't that far off from what she's supposed to do in a normal HGW. Plus, Zouken's whole deal kind of foreshadows Shirou's soul being able to inhabit a new body through weird magic poo poo (not to mention that it was also kind of a thing in Kara no Kyoukai, but that's a separate work). With that in mind, Shirou sacrificing himself anyways is completely and utterly retarded, and him being able to come back from being beat to poo poo isn't really as much of an asspull as it looks.
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May 9, 2013 14:25
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Silver2195 posted:The things that make it a bad end are what make it a memorable fight, though. Without the element of Shirou frying his own brain it wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting. This is the Chinese legend about the swords: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gan_Jiang_and_Mo_Ye The swords are named after the couple that forged them, so it might refer to that.
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May 9, 2013 15:48
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WickedIcon posted:To be honest, there's basically no reason why the Normal End would ever happen except that there needs to be a sad ending for whatever reason. It's been established prior that Ilya's going to die anyways, and that what she does in the True End isn't that far off from what she's supposed to do in a normal HGW. Plus, Zouken's whole deal kind of foreshadows Shirou's soul being able to inhabit a new body through weird magic poo poo (not to mention that it was also kind of a thing in Kara no Kyoukai, but that's a separate work). With that in mind, Shirou sacrificing himself anyways is completely and utterly retarded, and him being able to come back from being beat to poo poo isn't really as much of an asspull as it looks. HF Normal is the result of: A. Ilya not getting to the Greater Grail on time after finishing preparing the Dress of Heaven. B. Not getting through to Shirou before he uses Excalibur. - Either because he's hosed himself so hard he's too far gone. - He's so resolute she has no time; with the 'Good End' choice he hesitates. Shirou is also not the kind of person who would allow Ilya to sacrifice herself in his place just because she'd probably die in a year or two.
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May 9, 2013 17:51
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This is more of a general commentary than anything, but one of the things that I think makes Fate as oddly compelling as it is is that it has a weird balancing act with the main heroines of each route that nicely compliments the themes of each route. Saber is the eternally idealistic, dreamy girl (even if she's loathe to admit it), Rin is the pragmatic, mostly sensible one of the three, and Sakura is the desperate girl clinging to one thing she can always believe in. It's been said before that regardless of what you think of it as a whole, FSN is a cleverly structured game that has each route open only after completing the former for a very good reason. It's a testament to Nasu's skill as a writer that he doesn't have to bend any of the heroines' personalities into something they're not to fit the needs of each route. Each melds very naturally when they have the starring role, and nothing about their interactions with Shirou or the plot in general ever really feels forced. I think it's telling that of Nasu's major works (KnK, Mahou, Tsukihime, and Fate), Fate is the one that Nasu never really revisited on the scale of anything that happened with the other three. The KnK movies have virtually supplanted the novels with his blessing, he redid Mahou after shelving it for a while, and he and Takeuchi are remaking Tsukihime. It's clear the guy has a lot of interesting ideas and imagination, but Fate is where I think he really hit his prime, so even with hollow ataraxia and zero coming later (or both EXTRA games if you want to include those for whatever reason), stay night I think is a definitive point where he really started coming into his own, and it shows.
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May 10, 2013 08:31
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The EXTRA games are worth including for following on the concept of Servants/Heroic Spirits, being the major hook and one of the most engaging background elements of FSN, even if they follow a very separate story from Shirou's (which is of course the core of FSN). And, canonicity discussions aside, I really like how CCC expands Gilgamesh as a character and adds context to his beliefs and behavior during FSN and Zero.
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May 10, 2013 09:00
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Nate RFB posted:Basically, if you want to see what Mind of Steel would entail (which is the antithesis to the rest of HF), you should watch Fate/Zero and wee how happy that path made Kiritsugu Emiya.  Krinkle posted:What do I feel seeing two mass murderers forgive each other and decide to cook for each other forever? Nyaa fucked around with this message at 15:04 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 14:55
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I finished reading Hoshizora no Memoria -Wish upon a Shooting Star-. In general: The common route was fun, lighthearted and relaxing. Unfortunately, it was too long. I started out going with Komomo's route and I thought the common route's latter part was actually just part of her route. I was very surprised on my second readthrough. Even with the skip on, it took ages, especially since the VN pauses completely when it's the window in focus. The running gags were similarly okay the first few times, but they were used a bit too often and with little variation. The music was okay, it didn't distract me much. The artstyle was pretty great and the characters were expressive. The metaplot got really confusing at times, and I really don't care about astronomy nearly as much as this story seems to presume. The usual complaints about the porn and fetishization. Komomo's route: Okay, though the tsundere aspects of the character got out of hand. Nice drama, funny at times, sort of sweet. Asuho's route: Everyone is suddenly very reasonable about everything! Except Asuho herself, but that didn't last. The most down-to-earth of the routes and quite honestly pretty refreshing in how things seem to work out okay without too much drama. Isuzu's route: That girl needs therapy. I never really got why I was supposed to care for this character, I'm afraid. Things got a bit more interesting towards the end, I guess, with some character growth. Kosame's route: A nice conclusion for this side of the story. The ending with the wrist-slitting was sorta of  , though.Chinami's route: Oh dear. This was sort of sweet until towards the end. The unavoidable and very much creepy romance sort of messed up an otherwise okay story about family. Shino: Your adopted children porking each other is not something to be happy about. In fact, it's kinda hosed up! Taiga: Becoming a teacher so you can get close to a high school girl you have a crush on after meeting her once is not okay. In fact, it's kinda hosed up! Yume's route: An acceptable conclusion to the story overall, and sort of touching, especially with You's breakdown near the end. Mare's route: Nope! So, yeah, despite some very unfortunate aspects, this was okay. Yet another nice light-hearted VN, though I think I prefer Da Capo 2.
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May 10, 2013 16:24
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Sylphid posted:It's been said before that regardless of what you think of it as a whole, FSN is a cleverly structured game that has each route open only after completing the former for a very good reason. It's a testament to Nasu's skill as a writer that he doesn't have to bend any of the heroines' personalities into something they're not to fit the needs of each route. Each melds very naturally when they have the starring role, and nothing about their interactions with Shirou or the plot in general ever really feels forced. 
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May 10, 2013 18:39
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Paracelsus posted:Except for the sex scenes in UBW. Oh god those were loving shoehorned in like a checkbox requirement. They were so bad and completely unnecessary  ( at sex scenes being necessary in a VN)Also, gave up on Muv Luv for now, because :takeru:, seriously, gently caress that guy. E: Huh, so apparently you can play back audio in Hoshizora no Memoria's script backlog with a left-click, this is kinda amusing left clicking like crazy. This VN focuses a LOT on stars. orange juche fucked around with this message at 20:22 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 20:13
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Was there more than one in UBW? I only remember one. It also had the exact opposite magical-loving logic that every other one had so not only was it unnecessary it broke ~My immersion~.
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May 10, 2013 20:48
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Krinkle posted:Was there more than one in UBW? I only remember one. It also had the exact opposite magical-loving logic that every other one had so not only was it unnecessary it broke ~My immersion~. Was there any logic to it in HF? other than Sakura being a literal sex vampire So many porny scenes in HF 
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May 10, 2013 20:52
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Suleman posted:Chinami's route: Oh god, that route. Probably the most creepedout I've been while going through a visual novel and I've read Saya no Uta! Sex scene between the main character and his comic relief younger sister who DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE MECHANICS OF SEX! Felt like I needed to take a cold shower after that. And then loving Aunt Shino is happy about this?! Even worse is that she though Chinami might be pregnant. Her 15-16 year old, first year in high school niece might have been impregnated by her brother and she makes this sound like it's a joyous occasion! Feel like I need a cold shower just from recalling that drat route.
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May 10, 2013 20:53
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Stall_19 posted:Oh god, that route. I'll make a mental note to sidestep that when I play through. E: I just saw Chinami Oh god, that route, I just can't 
orange juche fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 20:54
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Cockblocking Jerk posted:Was there any logic to it in HF? other than Sakura being a literal sex vampire So many porny scenes in HF She was a candle burning from both ends. the crest worm is eating her magic from one direction while rider drains her from the other and without magic from loving, or I guess murdering drunks wandering the street after bars closing, she burns out and goes evil faster. It was stupid no matter what, do not think I am defending this ridiculousness, but the bullshit logic they set up was sperm transfers magic power in one way only so UBW would have had the exact opposite effect they wanted/got.
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May 10, 2013 20:57
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I could be wrong, but it was my impression that like with cousins, relationships between half-siblings were unusual but not forbidden by the Japanese incest taboo. Then again, I was exposed to Heinlein at a young age, so I don't even bat an eye at that poo poo anymore.
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May 10, 2013 20:59
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Blhue posted:I could be wrong, but it was my impression that like with cousins, relationships between half-siblings were unusual but not forbidden by the Japanese incest taboo. Then again, I was exposed to Heinlein at a young age, so I don't even bat an eye at that poo poo anymore. Don't be silly. It may not have been taboo for royalty centuries ago, but marriages between half-siblings have been taboo in virtually every culture in every other context (while the cousin taboo is much more recent and doesn't really exist in Europe either). Do you really think that there are any First World countries where marriages between half-siblings are legal? One of the most annoying things Western anime fans do is making up stuff about Japanese culture to justify terrible cliches.
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May 10, 2013 21:07
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Krinkle posted:Was there more than one in UBW? I only remember one. It also had the exact opposite magical-loving logic that every other one had so not only was it unnecessary it broke ~My immersion~. Fate: Direct mana transfer to Saber + establishing a proper link so mana can passively flow to her. HF: Direct mana transfer. UBW: The purpose was just to establish a link as fast as possible (presumably tantric sex magic works fast, and is the reason why it was done in Fate). Whatever mana Shirou might've given Rin in the process is meaningless because her capacity and output severely outclasses him; establish link, then she can remotely feed him all he needs through that. Though, in the Good End, Rin implies that Shirou should start mana-trasferring to her regularly so she can more easily keep Saber around.
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May 10, 2013 21:11
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Nephilm posted:UBW: The purpose was just to establish a link as fast as possible (presumably tantric sex magic works fast, and is the reason why it was done in Fate). Whatever mana Shirou might've given Rin in the process is meaningless because her capacity and output severely outclasses him; establish link, then she can remotely feed him all he needs through that. Though, in the Good End, Rin implies that Shirou should start mana-trasferring to her regularly so she can more easily keep Saber around. I thought the epilogue implied he would have to mana-transfer directly to Saber to lower the magical burden for Tohsaka to keep her around. It's what Taiga called the "flowers in both hands" ending.
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May 10, 2013 21:15
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Nephilm posted:Fate: Direct mana transfer to Saber + establishing a proper link so mana can passively flow to her. Doesn't Shirou have access to Reality Marble in Good End? Shouldn't he have a vastly increased supply of mana from it? I can't remember if he could draw magical energy from it too. E2: also, see dickworms for reference on how much sense F/SN makes. Silver2195 posted:Don't be silly. It may not have been taboo for royalty centuries ago, but marriages between half-siblings have been taboo in virtually every culture in every other context (while the cousin taboo is much more recent and doesn't really exist in Europe either). Do you really think that there are any First World countries where marriages between half-siblings are legal? Alabama 
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May 10, 2013 21:17
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Krinkle posted:I thought the epilogue implied he would have to mana-transfer directly to Saber to lower the magical burden for Tohsaka to keep her around. It's what Taiga called the "flowers in both hands" ending. Could go both ways I guess. We don't know the inefficiency of mana transfer by taking that extra step plus Rin is gay for Saber and rather liberal minded. Cockblocking Jerk posted:Doesn't Shirou have access to Reality Marble in Good End? Shouldn't he have a vastly increased supply of mana from it? I can't remember if he could draw magical energy from it too. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 21:25 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 21:21
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Cockblocking Jerk posted:Doesn't Shirou have access to Reality Marble in Good End? Shouldn't he have a vastly increased supply of mana from it? I can't remember if he could draw magical energy from it too. Reality Marbles cost mana to maintain; they don't give you mana unless that's part of their specific powers, like Yumiduka's Depletion Garden.
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May 10, 2013 21:21
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