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PunkBoy posted:Roy's father having angel wings is a simplistic idea that Elan would believe. It's also a shortcut for "now he is allowed to proceed to Elysium proper" as the fulfillment of his sacred oath allows him to move on and not stay stuck in the waiting cloud forever. The previous page showed Roy was affected, and the illusion here is in the same continuity. Either it's still Roy's illusion (the Scrooge McHaley scene would fit with the opinion he has of the party rogue) or it's communal (and Belkar is still hallucinating being dead, possibly as a ghost so he can watch what happens next). Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 17:51 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 17:47
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PunkBoy posted:Huh, maybe my prediction from before will come true. I will agree that this is most likely only Elan's illusion. Roy's father having angel wings is a simplistic idea that Elan would believe. How he actually knows how Roy's father looks (or if he just guessed "Roy with a white beard"), is an issue, though. that actually would stick with the happy ending for him only if the others had different illusions like the party geting gibbed from the lich, but since roy seems happy enough in the realworld shot I doubt it.
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May 13, 2013 17:48
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Umbra Dubium posted:We call these people "bad at storytelling". Or "Mookie".
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May 13, 2013 17:53
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greatn posted:Not necessarily, a lot of creators make the narrative as they go along, planning little in advance. If you do that you end up with The Walking Dead, as opposed to Battlestar Galactica
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May 13, 2013 18:00
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In the commentary for the Oracle strips, Rich says he included Elan's question to reassure readers that at the end of the day the comic was going to have a happy ending, even if other characters died or if the story had a few twists in it. I don't think it was a set-up for (another) devious trick or fake-out or whatever.
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May 13, 2013 18:34
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peak debt posted:If you do that you end up with The Walking Dead, as opposed to Battlestar Galactica BSG did a lot of this too.
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May 13, 2013 18:53
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peak debt posted:If you do that you end up with The Walking Dead, as opposed to Battlestar Galactica Battlestar Galactica was definitely made up arc to arc, it wasn't planned out like Babylon 5 or anything. Aside from that, the point that all fiction is predestined and that having a prophecy only spreads that predestination to the characters misses one major thing: it also spreads knowledge of predestination to the reader/watcher, and gives everything an additional unnecessary layer of suspension of disbelief.
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May 13, 2013 18:59
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I've always felt that the "out" with Elan's fate being that he'd be happy pretty much no matter what happened, as long as it was narratively relevant. Like, if he died to protect Haley, or any of his friends/family, or the entire world, or pretty much any number of things where he gets to be heroic in some fashion. So when his story ends, it's happy. With no indication of what the relative state of whatever happens later.
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May 13, 2013 20:12
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greatn posted:Battlestar Galactica was definitely made up arc to arc, it wasn't planned out like Babylon 5 or anything. Right. Remind me what the Cylons' "plan" was, again? I've personally gotten really tired of prophecies in fiction. It seemed novel the first series I ran into with it (which happened to the Sword of Truth series), especially when the apparently obvious prophecy was subverted. I even got tired of that, too. I just don't understand why it crops up so often - is it just a really easy way of raising the stakes of a story?
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May 13, 2013 20:38
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morcant posted:Right. Remind me what the Cylons' "plan" was, again? That is one of the many reason it can be used, yes. The main use of a vague prophecy, however, is to excite the imagination with howand when it is going to be fulfilled. It's a lot like a story told in flashback: you know the outcome, but how the outcame came to be. Used badly, it defuses all tension, used well, it opens up a wide range of speculation and expectation in readers.
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May 13, 2013 20:48
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The only way it works for me is when the time frame between the prophecy being made and the prophecy being fulfilled is very short. For example "Future Echoes" the second episode of Red Dwarf.
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May 13, 2013 20:48
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morcant posted:I've personally gotten really tired of prophecies in fiction. It seemed novel the first series I ran into with it (which happened to the Sword of Truth series), especially when the apparently obvious prophecy was subverted. I even got tired of that, too. I just don't understand why it crops up so often - is it just a really easy way of raising the stakes of a story? Lazy writers often use it as a substitute for actual character motivation. It's far simpler to go "the hero must follow the quest because the gods have decreed it" than to establish his reasons to actually want to do it.
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May 13, 2013 20:52
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Cat Mattress posted:The previous page showed Roy was affected, and the illusion here is in the same continuity. Either it's still Roy's illusion (the Scrooge McHaley scene would fit with the opinion he has of the party rogue) or it's communal (and Belkar is still hallucinating being dead, possibly as a ghost so he can watch what happens next).
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May 13, 2013 21:30
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Remember that OotS is at its core still a D&D parody, and the oracle is clearly lampshading the usual D&D's stories heavy reliance on prophecies. The whole situation is even meta-ironic since unlike the typical ironic prophecy that is technically true but completely fucks over the guy that hears them, here the oracle actually _wants_ to help the party but they keep messing the questions up or stab the oracle before he can say anything useful.
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May 13, 2013 22:07
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I noticed that in Roy's illusion he used the spell disruption feat he learned during his visit in heaven: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html I assume that means he actually knows it in "real life" right now. I am curious how effective it will be in a real scenario.
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May 13, 2013 22:14
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Theler posted:I noticed that in Roy's illusion he used the spell disruption feat he learned during his visit in heaven: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html Probably not as effective as he hopes & (apparently) dreams.
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May 13, 2013 22:32
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peak debt posted:Remember that OotS is at its core still a D&D parody, and the oracle is clearly lampshading the usual D&D's stories heavy reliance on prophecies. The whole situation is even meta-ironic since unlike the typical ironic prophecy that is technically true but completely fucks over the guy that hears them, here the oracle actually _wants_ to help the party but they keep messing the questions up or stab the oracle before he can say anything useful. Oh, completely. Lampooning the whole dumb trend is fine, I was more wondering why so many non-comedy fantasy settings do it since it seems to crop up in almost every series I read. I did notice that in one of the panels, Haley's shooting Tsukiko. None of the Order actually knows she's dead as far as I can recall. So many awesome little details - Rich is wonderful.
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May 13, 2013 22:53
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morcant posted:Right. Remind me what the Cylons' "plan" was, again? I don't have anywhere near the same problem with OotS though, because the prophecies don't come within a mile of driving the plot, they're primarily fuel for reader speculation.
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May 13, 2013 23:01
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NihilCredo posted:This is pretty apt because I deeply enjoyed the miniseries and roughly half of the first season of BSG, but my interest dropped like a rock as the prophecy nonsense and Tricia Helfer's horrible character gained prominence over politics and espionage. I asked the BSG thread "is this mystic crap all a big misunderstanding or red herring?", they said no, and I didn't even start the second season. Rich is also keenly aware of all the tropes around prophecy, and plays with reader expectations like a motherfucker. He totally put that title on the most recent strip to gently caress with people about whether it's Elan's happy ending, but I'm 99% certain it's not - it would be cheap. And Rich is never cheap (I don't think so, anyway - any counterexamples?).
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May 14, 2013 00:55
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NihilCredo posted:This is pretty apt because I deeply enjoyed the miniseries and roughly half of the first season of BSG, but my interest dropped like a rock as the prophecy nonsense and Tricia Helfer's horrible character gained prominence over politics and espionage. I asked the BSG thread "is this mystic crap all a big misunderstanding or red herring?", they said no, and I didn't even start the second season. Uh wow. I really recommend you try to finish the series. It gets pretty drat amazing, and it does still involve a lot of politics and intrigue.
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May 14, 2013 00:56
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sebmojo posted:Rich is also keenly aware of all the tropes around prophecy, and plays with reader expectations like a motherfucker. He totally put that title on the most recent strip to gently caress with people about whether it's Elan's happy ending, but I'm 99% certain it's not - it would be cheap. quote:And Rich is never cheap (I don't think so, anyway - any counterexamples?).
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May 14, 2013 01:24
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NihilCredo posted:This is pretty apt because I deeply enjoyed the miniseries and roughly half of the first season of BSG, but my interest dropped like a rock as the prophecy nonsense and Tricia Helfer's horrible character gained prominence over politics and espionage. I asked the BSG thread "is this mystic crap all a big misunderstanding or red herring?", they said no, and I didn't even start the second season. Good stopping points are, in my opinion, halfway through season three, halfway through the last season, or not watching the last episode. The mystical stuff does get really tiresome, but I'll echo ShadowCatboy's sentiment that there are still really great moments in there. I'd encourage you to at least trying to make it through season 3.0, or whatever dumb name they gave the first half to get more DVD sales. One of the things I'm getting out of this thread is just how meta Rich really is, which is a wonderful extra layer of complexity. Slapping down his spergy fans is also a plus, and I thank you brave goons who wade into his forums for the greater amusement of all.  e: I suck at grammar today reitetsu fucked around with this message at 01:33 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 01:30
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Trapezium Dave posted:A little nitpicky but I thought the Vaarsuvius' "four words" aspect of the prophecy was a bit of a cop out. Interesting. Why that bit specifically? Not sure I'd call it cheap myself, since it was rooted in V's personality flaws (repeating the 'I' is significant) rather than being a deus ex machine or rear end-pull. I guess having the repeated 'I' count as a word is a bit woolly. Personally, though I know that's not what Rich has said they were, I have always liked 'Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.' as the four words - it actually checks out since they're the right words (they accomplish what is needed for the strip, and for the group) to the right being (Kubota was unquestionably villainous) for the wrong reasons (V knew none of this stuff and just did it on a hunch). And it sets him directly on the path to getting ultimate power.
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May 14, 2013 02:16
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sebmojo posted:Interesting. Why that bit specifically? Not sure I'd call it cheap myself, since it was rooted in V's personality flaws (repeating the 'I' is significant) rather than being a deus ex machine or rear end-pull. I guess having the repeated 'I' count as a word is a bit woolly. The prophecy was something like "How do I achieve ultimate arcane power?" "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons". The nitpicky part is that the emphasis on the "right four words" meant it was going to be a dramatically powerful moment, and having a repeated "I" in there count as a word lessened the power. But I also had an issue with the "all the wrong reasons" part. The wrong reason is that V is doing it because V wants to do everything solo out of hubris (goddamn is it hard to write about V without pronouns). However in the situation V was in, where a dragon is about to murder V's spouse and children and bind their souls for eternity, going with the soul splice was still the best option available. The Fiends did this counter-example where V could solve the problem through a series of convoluted steps that started with self-decapitation which was total bullshit and proved nothing. The problem wasn't with V taking the soul splice, it was when V revelled in the power and took it way too far, which became evident a few strips later. Mostly it comes down to the dramatic timing. If it was a clear four words that clearly showed right at that moment that V was doing it for selfish reasons then it would have a lot more punch. I know that is what Rich was going for with the repeated "I" and the framing with the Fiends, but it didn't work as well with me as I think it could have.
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May 14, 2013 02:47
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Trapezium Dave posted:But I also had an issue with the "all the wrong reasons" part. The wrong reason is that V is doing it because V wants to do everything solo out of hubris (goddamn is it hard to write about V without pronouns). However in the situation V was in, where a dragon is about to murder V's spouse and children and bind their souls for eternity, going with the soul splice was still the best option available. The Fiends did this counter-example where V could solve the problem through a series of convoluted steps that started with self-decapitation which was total bullshit and proved nothing. The problem wasn't with V taking the soul splice, it was when V revelled in the power and took it way too far, which became evident a few strips later. The point was that V flat-out was told he had other choices. Convoluted or no, she still considered it a valid choice and he still made the decision to obtain power. That is why her decision was for the wrong reason. It may have been for a good cause but it wasn't made in good faith.
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May 14, 2013 03:32
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ImpAtom posted:The point was that V flat-out was told he had other choices. Convoluted or no, she still considered it a valid choice and he still made the decision to obtain power. That is why her decision was for the wrong reason. It may have been for a good cause but it wasn't made in good faith. It's only an issue for that moment though because V goes on to prove it's all about the power as soon as the dragon is neutralised.
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May 14, 2013 04:02
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Umbra Dubium posted:We call these people "bad at storytelling". It's, uh...bit of both. You plan the outline of the story but it evolves even as you write it. That's how it is for me and a lot of other webcomicers. I've been told that if the story doesn't take on a life of its own as you write it, you're not being good ''enough.''
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May 14, 2013 04:13
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Trapezium Dave posted:I get that and I agree that the prophecy was fulfilled, but my opinion is that it would have been a lot more dramatically powerful moment if V actually a viable alternative to reject for personal power instead of a ridiculous one that only underlines that an exhausted V wasn't thinking clearly. This whole time, I thought V said "I must fix everything" instead of "I have to fix everything" in this comic, and that was the four words. That is to say, that the mistake was V's choice to fix "everything" with the ultimate power, not just to take the most reliable way to save her family. This way is significantly less cool, too bad.
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May 14, 2013 04:13
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So we're not counting the entire chain of events and motivations leading up to the decision as within the scope of the prophecy? For me 'the wrong reasons' include the arrogance and self-serving nature that leads to leaving the boat, leaving the team and even leaving the family unprotected -let alone not returning home to a master who would have helped with the incredibly important quest- without any concern that actions might have negative repercussions. There are reasons past "my family is in danger, so I must"
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May 14, 2013 04:26
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Spiderdrake posted:So we're not counting the entire chain of events and motivations leading up to the decision as within the scope of the prophecy? For me 'the wrong reasons' include the arrogance and self-serving nature that leads to leaving the boat, leaving the team and even leaving the family unprotected -let alone not returning home to a master who would have helped with the incredibly important quest- without any concern that actions might have negative repercussions. There are reasons past "my family is in danger, so I must" I'm being nitpicky as all hell I guess. I think I'm mostly irked because the prophecy puts the emphasis on that one moment when a whole bunch of much more powerful dramatic moments follow very soon afterwards. I should read that section again. I've even got a copy of "Don't Split the Party" but I haven't got round to reading it yet.
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May 14, 2013 04:59
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PunkBoy posted:How he actually knows how Roy's father looks (or if he just guessed "Roy with a white beard"), is an issue, though.
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May 14, 2013 08:18
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mmkay posted:Didn't he meet him after the trial, when Eugene turned off the Angel of Justice or whatever illusion? No, only Roy and Haley were around for that.
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May 14, 2013 08:18
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Trapezium Dave posted:Taken as a whole, V's character arc of self-destruction through arrogance is fine. It's the phrasing of the prophecy, highlighting the part where V says the "right four words", that slightly bugs me. Maybe if the "four" had been dropped ("say the right words") it could be more readily interpreted as V doing the right thing at that moment but for completely the wrong motivation, putting more emphasis on the whole sequence.
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May 14, 2013 08:57
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PunkBoy posted:Huh, maybe my prediction from before will come true. I will agree that this is most likely only Elan's illusion. Roy's father having angel wings is a simplistic idea that Elan would believe. How he actually knows how Roy's father looks (or if he just guessed "Roy with a white beard"), is an issue, though. It's not all Elan's illusion, because if it were then Roy would be getting along with his sister instead of being smug at her disapproving of the statue of him.
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May 14, 2013 09:10
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Message posted:It's not all Elan's illusion, because if it were then Roy would be getting along with his sister instead of being smug at her disapproving of the statue of him. It's a collaborative fantasy. Everyone contributes.
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May 14, 2013 09:15
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Angry Avocado posted:V didn't seal the deal by saying those four words, they weren't that important for that moment.
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May 14, 2013 09:30
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My Lovely Horse posted:I sort of agree with the "four words" thing being a bit of a copout but then I think, that's where the oracle being a dick comes in again. He could have said "you're gonna touch the wrong set of balls" or something but he always takes great care to make his prophecies just this side of unhelpful. No balls need to be involved 
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May 14, 2013 09:45
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my dad posted:It's a collaborative fantasy. Everyone contributes. Quit deprotagonizing Roy, dammit 
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May 14, 2013 10:21
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If it was a collaborative fantasy then at a bare minimum Belkar would have kept Mr. Scruffy alive, even if he had somehow been OK with biting it, and even if his knowledge of what really happened to Durkon hadn't been part of the dream. Elan would have had both his parents present and reconciled, instead there's only the one Roy has met; this isn't anywhere near as big as the problems with Belkar, though. It's very very obviously Roy's fantasy, I'm baffled people can think otherwise. Besides, it would be really counterintuitive for the dream trap to take all targets and affect them collectively, instead of individually affecting everyone who fails his saving throw. By the way, I'm going to throw my hat on how they will escape the trap: Mr. Scruffy is unaffected and forcefully wakes up Belkar (or someone else, but likely Belkar). Kinda dull, I know.
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May 14, 2013 10:37
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Has Rich actually confirmed that those four words were the words referred to in the prophecy?
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