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Tyberius posted:You mean after GearScore right? I don't want to invite scrubs to my space dragon raids. Granted it's not an ideal system, but it does have its usage. Nothing beats the feeling of healing a tank with less life than you during his very first heroic dungeon. And don't you dare letting him die, you dumb gently caress. There is so much you can do in your quest green items, like it or not. As stupid as it sounds, as hated as it is, in games with a loot trend mill there has to be a way to evaluate the collection of your equipment. Does it prevent stupid people form doing stupid poo poo? Of course not. Does it equate "good" players, obviously not. But it's better than not having such score, specially in any game where the equipment level can prevent you from progressing thru the content (talking about dungeons here). That and if you are playing with pubs that over evaluate gear score, then you deserve what you get.
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May 13, 2013 20:46
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Eonwe posted:I always loved that. Want to enjoy this content? Well you better have beaten it enough times in the past to have gear that will make it trivial. If you haven't beaten it, then gently caress off, you don't get to play. And of course, whoever is putting it together is the ONE exception to this rule, because THIS is his alt and he leads tons of raids on his main on someitherserver. You should be grateful you have his expertise available! By the way, he's still learning on his alt so don't expect much.
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May 13, 2013 20:47
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CLAM DOWN posted:The MMORPG genre is solely about gear stats? What? Did you invent them? Are you Richard Garriott? Worse, he's Raph Koster.
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May 13, 2013 20:47
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malhavok posted:That is not what i said though, i said that is what the genre is about. If time investment does not equal power then the whole point of the "persistent" world goes out the window. GW1 says hi. Even then to many MMO vets, stats are a means to hide the fact that there isn't a power increase. See "gear treadmill". A well balanced game will see gameplay change very little as a character advances, despite the numbers next to your name and the numbers next to the mob change (stats) a player will still kill it in 10 hits and be killed in 10 hits (an example, but you should get the point). Going along with the "gear treadmill" line ends up with players not actually progressing in power in regards to new content, but simply completely trivializing old content, effectively removing it from the game. Not that many are calling the stat driven part of progression out by name, but many point out its effects. "Unoriginal content/combat", "stale rehash", "unable to hold player's attention", are all common complaints that can be traced back to a game being stat driven. A newer idea of "horizontal" progression has been attempted several times now, though no great formula behind how to make it work has been derived; results have been mixed, some great, some not so great, but the idea shows great potential. GW1 did this with its large skill choice (of which you choose 8 from hundreds), TSW has done it somewhat with the skill ring, even WoW has moved a little bit towards this idea via the removing of the skill trees for their current system. Horizontal progression doesn't strictly mean a character doesn't get more powerful, its just that their power increases from being able to do more rather than from a simple numbers increase; which is generally much more satisfying for the player. Though it can run into issues as a well designed numbers increase is ultimately an illusion of a power increase while a horizontal increase is an actual power increase. Reverend Dr fucked around with this message at 20:54 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 20:48
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Anyway have the link to the story about the really bad wow raider on a Korean server. Guy was basically black listed from every group because he was a terrible raider. Turns out he was a 50 year old guy that worked 60 hours a week or something and was just trying to play for fun. I never want to play a game with people like that or that's built around having people like that. e: found it. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1260940-Meanwhile-in-South-Korea jaegerx fucked around with this message at 21:13 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 20:51
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Eonwe posted:I always loved that. Want to enjoy this content? Well you better have beaten it enough times in the past to have gear that will make it trivial. If you haven't beaten it, then gently caress off, you don't get to play. I always assumed that those LFG adverts in WoW were a subtle way of indicating that their group contained lovely DPS/Heals/Tanks and they were looking for someone with better gear to help carry their terrible group through the instance. Why anyone would want to join up with a poorly formed group was always beyond my comprehension. Not that I was very good at that terrible game, outside of PvP arena stuff. It just never occurred to me that those adverts were sourced from smug neckbeards letting only the super elite PvEers into their PUGs.
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May 13, 2013 20:53
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jaegerx posted:Anyway have the link to the story about the really bad wow raider on a Korean server. Guy was basically black listed from every group because he was a terrible raider. Turns out he was a 50 year old guy that worked 60 hours a week or something and was just trying to play for fun. That's... Actually kinda sad. I'm not usually moved by MMO sob stories, but it always gets me when I hear about somebody trying to enjoy something only to have it tossed in their face because they aren't immediately good at it. They were just trying to have some fun, you joyless shitlords.  EDIT: vv While I'm only just keeping an eye on WildStar, I think if I go at it, I may have to abandon my plan on being a gunslinging shaggy-dog dude and plan on being whatever the Mogwai guys are with you glorious bastadrs. Or a robot. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 20:58
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i am tim! posted:That's... Actually kinda sad. I'm not usually moved by MMO sob stories, but it always gets me when I hear about somebody trying to enjoy something only to have it tossed in their face because they aren't immediately good at it. That kind of attitude was my main motivation for making SFD the rule-infested place it is now, and why a lot of people like me hate raiding. Despite Wildstar having 40-man raids and unfortunately trying to bring back things like this, I intend to never associate with poisonous people who treat others like scum in an online videogame because their purples aren't purple enough.
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May 13, 2013 21:01
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CLAM DOWN posted:That kind of attitude was my main motivation for making SFD the rule-infested place it is now, and why a lot of people like me hate raiding. Despite Wildstar having 40-man raids and unfortunately trying to bring back things like this, I intend to never associate with poisonous people who treat others like scum in an online videogame because their purples aren't purple enough. Found it. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1260940-Meanwhile-in-South-Korea
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May 13, 2013 21:12
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That's kind of sad, and I know you/we all look down on poop sockers, but progression is fun for a lot of people, and others screwing that up ruins their fun. Fun is subjective. The guy's backstory, while tragic, should be irrelevant to that. He shouldn't have been blacklisted, and I seriously doubt it was that serious, as there are always other groups or guilds who don't value success the same way to fit in to.
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May 13, 2013 21:14
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CLAM DOWN posted:That kind of attitude was my main motivation for making SFD the rule-infested place it is now, and why a lot of people like me hate raiding. Despite Wildstar having 40-man raids and unfortunately trying to bring back things like this, I intend to never associate with poisonous people who treat others like scum in an online videogame because their purples aren't purple enough. I can't find the rule where I had to sponge bath you. You kept saying its a requirement but everyone I asked has looked at me funny when I asked how to deal with your folds.
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May 13, 2013 21:18
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So there we had it again. Being social in an MMORPG is bad and nobody should attempt it. To the Dungeon Finder!
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May 13, 2013 21:41
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Reverend Dr posted:GW1 says hi. I also prefer the GW1/TSW horizontal progression to the usual, but it is not really all that different. Being able to alter your character to deal with more situations is power, even if it's not as simple to quantify as a bigger number on your character sheet. And the formula is still the same, time invested = character power. It doesn't matter if we are talking levels, gear or options, once a player runs out of progression he runs out of game. Talking about removing that whole aspect of the game in order to have some idealized form of pvp that already exists in completely different games built exactly for that purpose is pointless and always going to end up in disappointment. They already made the perfect skill > gear games, it's called Tekken/TF2/LoL/Madden/Starcraft/whatever your preference.
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May 13, 2013 21:47
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malhavok posted:And the formula is still the same, time invested = character power. No, the formula is actually quite different. Player skill and knowledge has a much larger effect on character power than time. Gearscore and its ilk largely measure time spent. With any type of vertical gear system, if a player quits for a while then they are completely outdated when they return. With a well-designed horizontal system then they would return in much the same place even relative to any new content added. And letting PvP be fully "unlocked" or whatever is hardly "removing that whole aspect of the game". If you actually want a PvP system where time=power, then either you want an excuse as to why you lost, or to be able to just stomp nubs with no effort. If you think otherwise, then you just haven't played enough gear/stat grinding PvP games. There are plenty of examples of cosmetic "progression" (gathering cosmetic stuff for pretty princess dress-up) that keeps people playing and that type of "progression" absolutely does not give more power over time in any way shape or form. The idea that when a player has no more options to increase power the game is over, is just terribly wrong. EDIT: Basically, you are taking your personal feelings about why you play a game and generalizing that everyone else must also feel that same way. Reverend Dr fucked around with this message at 22:06 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 21:59
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^^^ Don't forget about ladders. Nothing gets PvPers revving their motors quite as much as a ladder to compete in. Hell, in an MMO like WildStar you could even make a big production out of the PvP ladder stats. Make it some in-universe TV station that broadcasts the winners in some central trading hub or whatever. People will be crawling all over themselves to literally get their name in lights. malhavok posted:I also prefer the GW1/TSW horizontal progression to the usual, but it is not really all that different. Being able to alter your character to deal with more situations is power, even if it's not as simple to quantify as a bigger number on your character sheet. And the formula is still the same, time invested = character power. It doesn't matter if we are talking levels, gear or options, once a player runs out of progression he runs out of game. Talking about removing that whole aspect of the game in order to have some idealized form of pvp that already exists in completely different games built exactly for that purpose is pointless and always going to end up in disappointment. They already made the perfect skill > gear games, it's called Tekken/TF2/LoL/Madden/Starcraft/whatever your preference. You see, you say "And the formula is still the same, time invested = character power." but that's only true if you completely ignore all of the finer details of both systems. You're reducing both concepts to their common elements and trying to tell us that's all that matters. It's also funny that you mention Tekken/TF2/LoL/Madden/Starcraft because none of those games play like an MMO. Except maybe LoL, and even then, I'd play that if I wanted to play LoL. What I might wanna play is WildStar PvP without having to worry about if I"m goign to need to get my face kicked in for two weeks before I get enough gear to even compete. So yeah, why NOT make that part of the game skill centric? Aside from the notion that I"m getting that you, specifically, REALLY wouldn't like it, i am tim! fucked around with this message at 22:09 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 22:06
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Reverend Dr posted:If you actually want a PvP system where time=power, then either you want an excuse as to why you lost, or to be able to just stomp nubs with no effort. If you think otherwise, then you just haven't played enough gear/stat grinding PvP games. Or maybe when i play an MMO i am looking for a different experience than when i play other types of games. I play tons of skill based games already, both in consoles and PC, I am fine with getting stomped by better players than me in everything from blood bowl to injustice: gods among us. You are still asking for something that already exists in other games that are able to do it MUCH MUCH better and asking for it to be shoehorned into a game that has absolutely nothing to do with that type of gameplay.
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May 13, 2013 22:07
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i am tim! posted:
I'd love a fantasy version of a TF2 type game, i just know better than to expect that in an MMO.
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May 13, 2013 22:08
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malhavok posted:I'd love a fantasy version of a TF2 type game, i just know better than to expect that in an MMO. Why? EDIT: Oh, right. You also completely dodged my question. That's cool, I understand. Here, I"ll repeat it. I had asked "I want to play WildStar PvP and not have to worry about getting curb stomped for two weeks before I get the gear I need to have the slightest bit of a chance to compete. Why ist hat a bad thing? Aside from the fact that you, specifically, would REALLY not like it." i am tim! fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 22:09
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malhavok posted:Or maybe when i play an MMO i am looking for a different experience than when i play other types of games. I play tons of skill based games already, both in consoles and PC, I am fine with getting stomped by better players than me in everything from blood bowl to injustice: gods among us. You are still asking for something that already exists in other games that are able to do it MUCH MUCH better and asking for it to be shoehorned into a game that has absolutely nothing to do with that type of gameplay. The whole "go play another game" thing is really stupid and childish. People can't be expected to play another game for eternity simply because it caters best to their preferred playstyle. It's still completely fine to want certain things in a new game even if it's not explicitly being advertised for their favourite feature set. It's why sandbox open PvP games like EVE still have a ton of poo poo for casual PvEers.
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May 13, 2013 22:10
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i am tim! posted:Why? Because i also enjoy the MMO style gameplay?
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May 13, 2013 22:12
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malhavok posted:You are still asking for something that already exists in other games that are able to do it MUCH MUCH better and asking for it to be shoehorned into a game that has absolutely nothing to do with that type of gameplay. No I am responding to your objection to putting in relatively small change that only affects PvP while avoiding the standard loving awful geargrind that most people can't loving stand because i am tim! posted:What I might wanna play is WildStar PvP without having to worry about if I"m goign to need to get my face kicked in for two weeks before I get enough gear to even compete. And if you aren't going to play PvP in an MMO, which seems to be what you are saying, then why the gently caress would you care about something that would affect only the PvP? Reverend Dr fucked around with this message at 22:20 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 22:13
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i am tim! posted:Make it some in-universe TV station that broadcasts the winners in some central trading hub or whatever. People will be crawling all over themselves to literally get their name in lights. That's the most attractive thing I've ever heard, I'd be all over having my name on TV screens as I walk around my gladiator palace, waving my hand at the filthy peasants who didn't make quite it up the ladder. There is no greater reward than glory (but the honor points are nice too).
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May 13, 2013 22:14
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malhavok posted:Because i also enjoy the MMO style gameplay? So do I, s'why I wanna fight other people in it.
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May 13, 2013 22:15
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Reverend Dr posted:No I am responding to your objection to putting in relatively small change that only affects PvP while avoiding the standard loving awful geargrind that most people can't loving stand because Dunno what gave you that idea, pvp is about the only reason i play pretty much anything. My point is that gear grind is nothing more than character progression and character progression is a feature, not a bug.
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May 13, 2013 22:16
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malhavok posted:Dunno what gave you that idea, pvp is about the only reason i play pretty much anything. My point is that gear grind is nothing more than character progression and character progression is a feature, not a bug. What exactly about "character progression" do you like in regards to PvP? If PvP is about the only reason you play much anything, why would you want a grind before you are able to play it? I want you to really think about that. malhavok posted:Because i also enjoy the MMO style gameplay? A very telling statement considering your views. malhavok posted:It is in fact what "RPG" means, those stats on your gear represent the skill of your character.
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May 13, 2013 22:21
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Reverend Dr posted:EDIT: Basically, you are taking your personal feelings about why you play a game and generalizing that everyone else must also feel that same way. You're doing the same thing. We are all doing that to a degree. I don't see your point there. The MMO that has the most players and does the best job of keeping that population somewhat steady for an unbelievable length of time has both a carrot-on-a-stick gear treadmill as well as a subscription model, both of them happen to be things that most goons agree on being absolutely terrible and would never work in this day and age. Dollars speak louder than goon opinions.
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May 13, 2013 22:25
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malhavok posted:Dunno what gave you that idea, pvp is about the only reason i play pretty much anything. My point is that gear grind is nothing more than character progression and character progression is a feature, not a bug. His argument is that a gear grind is probably the most bare-bones and boring kind of character progression, and new MMOs need to find new methods of progression in order to avoid becoming stale. Also, that the gear grind you're touting as a "feature not a bug" is stifling to a PvP population, as the barrier of entry proves prohibitive for new players as the game progresses in a way that PvE doesn't.
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May 13, 2013 22:25
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Reverend Dr posted:What exactly about "character progression" do you like in regards to PvP? If PvP is about the only reason you play much anything, why would you want a grind before you are able to play it? I want you to really think about that. Because i enjoy pvp and i don't see it as a grind, and getting tangible rewards is satisfying and builds attachment? this isn't really complicated stuff here. Contrary to what you might think people enjoy the "ding, grats!" feeling of character progression, why do you think you are starting to see it added to games like Battlefield? I'll see your "everybody hates the gear grind" and raise you "it is the only thing that keeps people coming back".
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May 13, 2013 22:28
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i am tim! posted:His argument is that a gear grind is probably the most bare-bones and boring kind of character progression, and new MMOs need to find new methods of progression in order to avoid becoming stale. Sure, it could definitely be other things like realm rank in Daoc. But the same people who complain about gear in pvp would complain about that.
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May 13, 2013 22:31
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Syrek posted:You're doing the same thing. We are all doing that to a degree. I don't see your point there. Continually posting losses 6 months in a row, predicting further losses by the end of the year. Meanwhile most sub free MMOs look to be doing better and better. So I agree, looks like dollars do speak louder than goon opinions. I agree 100%.
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May 13, 2013 22:31
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It's almost as if there's never going to be a video game that does everything exactly the way that everyone wants it to do. It's a shame, because the way I want this video game to be is the correct way.
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May 13, 2013 22:32
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My Gimmick Name posted:Continually posting losses 6 months in a row, predicting further losses by the end of the year. Meanwhile most sub free MMOs look to be doing better and better. So I agree, looks like dollars do speak louder than goon opinions. I agree 100%. I sure hope that the game being almost 10 years old doesn't have anything to do with that. With WoW losing players and other games gaining them, if nothing happens inbetween we might look at another 5 years before they cross the lines on a chart. And let me remind you that I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of opinions in here.
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May 13, 2013 22:38
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malhavok posted:I'll see your "everybody hates the gear grind" and raise you "it is the only thing that keeps people coming back". It's not at all though, speak for yourself.
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May 13, 2013 22:40
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My Gimmick Name posted:Continually posting losses 6 months in a row, predicting further losses by the end of the year. Meanwhile most sub free MMOs look to be doing better and better. So I agree, looks like dollars do speak louder than goon opinions. I agree 100%.  WoW's subscriber base has shrunk from 'several times more than literally every other MMO combined' to 'probably only five or six times every other MMO combined'. Certainly alarming if you're the one that's in charge of finding new places to store all of the gold bars it shits out, but hardly a death knell for WoW or the model. It will become unprofitable and be forced to close sometime around when Star Trek Online takes place. Full Disclosure: I have a rogue in the low-teens, so I'm probably biased. The devs have said outright that they're catering a large portion of the game to 'the 1%', so the raiding and gear scores and pvp attack power aren't really shocking, just unpleasant.
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May 14, 2013 00:01
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If that rate continues it'll be closer to 5-6 years, not hundreds. It's basically the worst argument you could make in this discussion. "Well wow is being more unsuccessful than 5-6 of those other companies ever checkmate  " is not a good answer, or even a reasonably sensible one. All it means is that wow is doing something bad enough to drive over a million people away from their game. WoW is bleeding players badly, mainly because they were the only game in town for a long time and people were attached to their characters, but it got too bad, and more specialized and niche MMOs have come out to cater to the specific desires of players. (that last bit is my opinion, and therefore I am going to spew it onto the forums with no factual basis as much as I like  )If you're going to argue that bigger numbers = RPG then I have to ask what those nerds sitting around playing tabletop RPGs are doing. The answer is that not everyone enjoys kicking the crap out of new players and going on a power trip fantasy about it, and you probably shouldn't base opinions on that. I know it's a scary concept, but people draw enjoyment out of different ways to play games. I mean, if you were right and your way was the only way to have fun, then why did SFD have so much fun self destructing their ships over earth spacedock? Or basically anything the SFD goons do? And if you recognize your way isn't the only way to have fun, why do you insist that your way is the best, even though there clearly isn't a consensus on what the best is? Obviously a good portion of people don't think a gear grind for pvp is good or fun.
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May 14, 2013 01:30
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Bauxite posted:If that rate continues it'll be closer to 5-6 years, not hundreds. It's basically the worst argument you could make in this discussion. "Well wow is being more unsuccessful than 5-6 of those other companies ever checkmate The funny thing is I don't believe any of this and didn't even remotely imply it, but I'm glad that you got it out of your system. Maybe you should have read my post instead of seeing something about WoW and having smoke shoot out of your ears. More to the point, this is a grindy game with a cash shop and pvp power and raids and half of the races are designed to suck cash out of furry role-players who want to decorate their spacefuckhouses. I guess deal with it or don't play it, which would probably fall under the category of dealing with it. ItBurns fucked around with this message at 02:03 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 01:58
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Bauxite posted:If that rate continues it'll be closer to 5-6 years, not hundreds. It's basically the worst argument you could make in this discussion. "Well wow is being more unsuccessful than 5-6 of those other companies ever checkmate Wow losing players doesn't necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong. The game is almost a decade old, that is reason enough for a mass exodus.
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May 14, 2013 02:08
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More beta invites being sent out soon.
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May 14, 2013 03:05
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Are the beta invites for this stress test going to be like GW2's, where we only get to play for a limited time?
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May 14, 2013 03:50
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Lyer posted:Are the beta invites for this stress test going to be like GW2's, where we only get to play for a limited time? Not sure how they will handle the stress test invites, but these invites are for the next wave of closed beta testers which aren't limited to just a weekend.
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May 14, 2013 04:09
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