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penga86 posted:I think I'm in need of some encourage or a new cert to try for. I just failed the 70-640 for the third time (got in the low 600s again) Redhat stuff would be a nice change of pace. Have you thought about that? It has a lot of value and its something you can still do on your own. Check the op. It has the links to the linux stuff. Its really surprising how far a RHCSA can take you knowledge wise as well resume wise for the effort. RHCE is pretty much the gold standard and isn't a pipe dream. Sickening fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 15, 2013 |
# ? May 15, 2013 22:47 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 05:43 |
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routenull0 posted:Note: I am against braindumps in every fashion, no matter what explanation is put forth, time in the hotseat tends to rule those individuals out, but I have an interesting question. You CAN get proper practice tests if you're that way inclined. I normally use the questions at the end of chapters to give me an indication of what I've learned and what I'm weak on. Hell I missed ICND1 and that test report is what meant I aced it the next time. A brain dump however is literally the questions that will be on the test. I have no idea how people can rationalise that as normal behaviour and not cheating. FYI if Cisco find that you've been cheating (i.e. via their analysis of your tests) they will not only strip you of your certs, they'll ban you from Cisco certification for life. Why would anyone in their right mind risk their career just to save a few hundred dollars on an exam. ToG fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 15, 2013 |
# ? May 15, 2013 23:19 |
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ToG posted:You CAN get proper practice tests if you're that way inclined. I normally use the questions at the end of chapters to give me an indication of what I've learned and what I'm weak on. Hell I missed ICND1 and that test report is what meant I aced it the next time. Considering I have personally turned in 3 different "practice" test questions from Boson that matched up to actual Cisco exam questions, I know that not all practice tests are created equal. And given the amount of people that do in fact brain dump, I don't think anyone is risking career suicide by doing so.
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# ? May 15, 2013 23:35 |
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God drat do I hate the Microsoft tests sometimes. If I didn't have a near photographic memory for the stupid trivia bullshit they ask you, I would still be failing the 640 series for server 2008. The best test questions are ones asking you about obscure failure modes in server 2012 server management, and which part of the WMI repository you need to adjust security settings on to fix it. Answered that one right because it actually happened to me, and I remembered what google told me to solve it. That said, they are passable if you study your rear end off, and test really well. If I wasn't such a lucky poo poo when it comes to multiple guess questions, a passing score would never happen. penga86 posted:I think I'm in need of some encourage or a new cert to try for. I just failed the 70-640 for the third time (got in the low 600s again) In order of shittiest to easiest, based on my experience: 70-640 - Amazingly lovely. 40 days of 2 hours a weekday, 4 hours a weekend, labs out the rear end, supplemental work, and I passed with a 726. 70-414 - gently caress you, the only reason I passed you is because I literally work in an environment that leverages fully half your stupid loving VMM and cluster shared shitheap content. 70-413 - Welcome back to sites and services. Enjoy setting up AD structures no sane man would contemplate. 70-646 - Bog standard server admin poo poo. Probably pretty easy for you, I needed to study because I only had ~6 months of real production 2008 AD admin experience at the time. 7+ years of part time AD fuckery experience though. 70-642 - Much easier than 640. If you understand DNS and how Microsoft uses it, you've got half of the test in the bag. 70-417 - Tricky, because gently caress me am I used to the 2008 way of doing things, and 2012 has just enough strange new poo poo, and alternate new (and therefore better, somehow) ways of doing things that some answers are odd. 70-416 - App-V, learn to love App-V, RemoteApps, and System Center 70-415 - I <3 SCCM: The test. Also, MDT, ADK, and how to PXE boot poo poo. 'I use the install media' is the categorically wrong answer here. Also, what they think 'best' is depends on the Marketing Koolaid they're trying to push (Powershell, System Center), and retarded 'in a vacuum' settings. Nobody in their right loving mind is going to do half the possible answers in a real production environment, because you'd gently caress something up and get fired. But in a lab, or in a 'technically this involved the least number of physical mouse clicks' sense, it was the 'best' answer. routenull0 posted:Considering I have personally turned in 3 different "practice" test questions from Boson that matched up to actual Cisco exam questions, I know that not all practice tests are created equal. Methylethylaldehyde fucked around with this message at 23:52 on May 15, 2013 |
# ? May 15, 2013 23:47 |
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Are there any places to get legitimate practice exams for Visual CertExam? I like the format rather than just questions at the end of chapter. Something that gives additional information about the answers would be cool as well. Specifically for Network+ for now.
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:01 |
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:A lot of the test entities have a cheating hotline. You can get people in a tremendous world of poo poo if you point out that a certified training instructor is handing out braindumps. On 3 separate occasions, I have taken a Cisco exam (CCNA through CCNP/DP), while using Boson, INE, etc to practice test, and come across the *exact* same question, down to IP, AS, etc. I turned over all the relevant information to Cisco to never hear a word back.
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:16 |
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routenull0 posted:On 3 separate occasions, I have taken a Cisco exam (CCNA through CCNP/DP), while using Boson, INE, etc to practice test, and come across the *exact* same question, down to IP, AS, etc. I turned over all the relevant information to Cisco to never hear a word back. You generally have to speak with a real person, and also raise a stink. If it's a big name study firm, they probably got a nastygram about it and not much else. If it's a small time community college teacher who is handing them out, he's just hosed. Yank his certs, bitch out the dean, threaten a lawsuit style poo poo.
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:23 |
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routenull0 posted:On 3 separate occasions, I have taken a Cisco exam (CCNA through CCNP/DP), while using Boson, INE, etc to practice test, and come across the *exact* same question, down to IP, AS, etc. I turned over all the relevant information to Cisco to never hear a word back. On a separate but related note, how are the Boson practice exams? I got the free one with my official ROUTE study guide and am wondering if it's worth it to shell out the extra cash.
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:24 |
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psydude posted:On a separate but related note, how are the Boson practice exams? I got the free one with my official ROUTE study guide and am wondering if it's worth it to shell out the extra cash. Meh, they are ok. I thought the ones put together by the study groups, which were based around GNS3 stuff were better....until I realized they were just copy/paste of stuff on the exam. I wasn't studying and learning, but memorizing the exam labs. I see this daily with a co-worker studying for his IE. Always on <braindump-exam-site.com> downloading visio's and GNS3 setups to help with the lab. Conversation typically goes like this: Him: Me: : Check this out, this is the layout of one of the current R&S Labs Ok, so, what about it? : This is what you can expect to see in the lab, this is what I am using to study That's not studying.....that doing a particular lab scenario over and over......better known as memorization I'm not sure how it is for Microsoft and things like VMWare, but from a Cisco perspective, it is hard to take anything online as a "practice" because I've seen too many times that it was just information built off a braindump. Just because someone changed IPs and AS'es doesn't mean it's any less of a braindump. The answer is still the same. Methylethylaldehyde posted:You generally have to speak with a real person, and also raise a stink. If it's a big name study firm, they probably got a nastygram about it and not much else. If it's a small time community college teacher who is handing them out, he's just hosed. Yank his certs, bitch out the dean, threaten a lawsuit style poo poo. I (read: my agency) spends millions of dollars a year with Cisco, I raised the concerns with Cisco training, my account rep, and anyone else that would listen...still heard nothing back. In the end, Cisco and every other vendor is out to make money. If the de-valuing of the certifications was such a concern, you'd see a lot more lab based exams that prevented braindumping.
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:35 |
So wanted to comment on the current discussion, because this got me thinking. Finally passed CCNA:Wireless, after another week of studying. When I failed the first time, I wrote down every question I could recall from the test after and searched the quick reference guide or whitepapers for the answer. Even with that I literally could not find answers for some questions due to how confusingly they were written. So after doing that, watchin INE, and restudying again I retook the test. I want to say about 15-18% of the quests I got were repeats, and most of the labs were the same, except something that was off before was on, or different IP etc. I ended up passing, but I got to thinking. Whats the real difference between taking the test repeatedly, failing, and researching the answers, vs getting it from a dump? From a ethics standpoint it seems exactly the same to me. Moving on to the subject of horrible tests. The CCNA wireless a huge load of poo poo, if you do not memorize every single loving number, FCC/ETSI EIRP values for every band, term, acronym, and definition WORD FOR WORD you will fail this. You will get questions wrong when you know the answer, because that's how confusing they make it. There was at least 10 questions which were 100% wordplay trickery, not technical trickery. This exam was a tier higher in difficulty than the NP Route/Switch, at least that's my opionion. I just cannot understand why it was so difficult for an associate exam. Also, how loving hard is it for a company that is writing a test to write a book that somewhere within its depths contains answers to the questions which will be on the test? What am I supposed to feel, except for burning hatred when there are questions I don't know the answer to because it wasn't in the study material? Am I supposed to feel dumb or inadequate? Because I don't, I feel like you conned me out of my money and I hate you. I don't understand what the end game is for the certification business. I use certification tracks now as a great way to set a coursework for myself and I find the material you learn from is almost always very high in quality (though missing stuff you need to know for test). With the daily increasing use of dump sites by testers, this system seems doomed to fail. The only way I see them saving this industry is rewriting questions to be logic problems using random values. Instead of a question about subnetting being "What is the broadcast address for 192.168.1.0/24" it will be what is the "X" address for "Y" / "Z"", where each value is picked from a table at random. The only test I really enjoyed that I've taken was NP Route, which I felt was the ideal way to test people. Every question is asking you to find and fix a problem, think on your feet, solve an issue using your brain, troubleshooting skills, and knowledge; not rote memorization. I think they structured the questions kind of stupidly which makes the test to easy though. Everything was 1: Where is the problem, 2: What is the problem, 3: What is the answer?. Except, I don't understand how you can fail to find WHERE the problem is if you're capable of breathing through your nose, and how hard is it to find out WHAT the problem is when you only have 5 multiple choice answers and have even a passive understand of networking? I hope they come up with a way to make these tests braindump free to legitimize the effort people put in, and also to make these easier. Once they can nip the dumping I feel like the difficulty will come way down due to more legitimate statistics about pass rates and the like.
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:35 |
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Two points to contemplate: Firstly, one could write a legitimate, 100% original content VCE practice test for the CCNA or MCITP. But how much time would a person need to invest into this? And then how would they go about getting compensated for it? Unless it is a labour of love, they would need to sell it. How much would you pay for it? How many people are going to pay for it, knowing they could go to certain sites and download actual exam questions for free?** Secondly, what guarantee is there that these 'practice tests which aren't dumps' even align with what they are saying in the exam? Going back a few pages, there was the example where a GRE tunnel was an answer to the ipv4-6 translation question. In the real world, this is true, however at CCNA level you aren't expected to know that GRE even exists. This can be hella confusing to the guy who has years of experience in networking but doesn't have the cert and needs to get it. People who need the piece of paper just to get past HR aren't going to be after practice tests that prove they know their poo poo, they are going to want to sit real dumps so they know the marketing bullshit de jour or the exact level or knowledge they are supposed to demonstrate, because they can't skip CCNA and straight do CCNP. These people miss out on great opportunities because enterprise HR or automated software are scanning for acronyms. The other side of the coin is people complain in the IT threads about FNGs and unsuitable interviewees because they do the dumps and get the paper and then come interview time can't explain the difference between default-information originate and redistribute static. This whole IT cert business has its flaws so let's accept it and move on. ** Any goons who are studying networking at A+, N+ or CCNA level want me to go ahead and make some practice tests? Maybe even do a full-on training thing through SA Mart?
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# ? May 16, 2013 00:50 |
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routenull0 posted:Considering I have personally turned in 3 different "practice" test questions from Boson that matched up to actual Cisco exam questions, I know that not all practice tests are created equal. Are you sure about that? There's a huge difference between three questions in a practice test being the same as the actual test and every question being on the actual test. ToG fucked around with this message at 01:01 on May 16, 2013 |
# ? May 16, 2013 00:57 |
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ToG posted:Are you sure about that? I guess you could take that as the truth, but without validation from Cisco, it is pretty much hearsay. Based off the proxy logs of co-workers, I can point you to specific sites based around the CCIE lab with complete IOU/GNS3 labs to help with "studying", that have helped users pass without issue. I'm not saying people do not get caught cheating, as the guy in your link was caught *and* confessed to bringing notes into the CCIE lab, but vendors are not cracking down on it as hard as they make it out to be. It is starting to look like I am for or on the side of braindumps and I am not, but the ability for vendors and test centers to separate the two is becoming harder and harder as long as the tests are multiple choice driven. The more random practical/sim/lab exams they can offer, the better they are at keeping the value of their certifications at the level they want. In the end you have to think about it from the vendor standpoint...the more people certified == the more they help us sell gear. Plain and simple.
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:17 |
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This article from years ago says MS uses forensics and can tell if you studied from dumpsquote:One major new change to the program is the extension of data forensics to enforcement. Microsoft has always used statistical analysis and data forensics to monitor the examination process but starting this summer, forensic results can be the sole basis of enforcement actions. They say they can ban you for life with no proof other than this, but I've never heard of it happening. Tons of people use them and you'd think someone would post about it happening to them on techexams or something if it did.
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:28 |
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Sickening posted:Redhat stuff would be a nice change of pace. Have you thought about that? It has a lot of value and its something you can still do on your own. What kind of job may one get with the Linux+ and RHCSA? It seems like the only thing is a possible job at Rackspace, but really don't want to move to Texas.
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:45 |
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Tab8715 posted:What kind of job may one get with the Linux+ and RHCSA? It seems like the only thing is a possible job at Rackspace, but really don't want to move to Texas. If you could knock out something like Security+ you could open a few doors with government contracting job....given you can obtain and hold at least a Secret clearance.
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:48 |
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Gap In The Tooth posted:People who need the piece of paper just to get past HR aren't going to be after practice tests that prove they know their poo poo, they are going to want to sit real dumps so they know the marketing bullshit de jour or the exact level or knowledge they are supposed to demonstrate, because they can't skip CCNA and straight do CCNP. These people miss out on great opportunities because enterprise HR or automated software are scanning for acronyms. This, exactly, is what I was trying to say. If I'm holding down a Sr. Net Eng position now, and I want a job that requires a CCNA fairly soon, I'd rather braindump stupid poo poo like OSPFv3's IPv6 multicast address than study for a month to memorize it. One, because I don't give a gently caress what OSPFv3's IPv6 multicast address is, and two, because odds are whoever's doing the technical interview doesn't give a gently caress either. It's just not an economic use of time, especially when I'm competing with 100 FYGM assholes that dumped every cert they have. That said, I wholeheartedly agree that someone lacking the aptitude to succeed in the role targeted by the cert should absolutely take the time to learn the material. The other side of the time economy coin is that it's a huge waste of time to bomb 20 technical interviews because you effectively lied about your qualifications.
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:52 |
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Tab8715 posted:What kind of job may one get with the Linux+ and RHCSA? It seems like the only thing is a possible job at Rackspace, but really don't want to move to Texas. Even though I am in Texas, I am seeing tons of stuff that isn't rackspace. Where do you live?
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:54 |
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Pudgygiant posted:This, exactly, is what I was trying to say. If I'm holding down a Sr. Net Eng position now, and I want a job that requires a CCNA fairly soon, I'd rather braindump stupid poo poo like OSPFv3's IPv6 multicast address than study for a month to memorize it. One, because I don't give a gently caress what OSPFv3's IPv6 multicast address is, and two, because odds are whoever's doing the technical interview doesn't give a gently caress either. It's just not an economic use of time, especially when I'm competing with 100 FYGM assholes that dumped every cert they have. Jesus loving christ. It doesn't matter how much you try to reword it, its not going to come out a way that isn't morally bankrupt. You don't possess the knowledge to pass the CCNP, so instead you cheat it. You cheat yourself and everyone else as well in the process. You are nothing more than another member of a large group of people who doesn't want to loving learn poo poo anymore. Get the gently caress out.
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# ? May 16, 2013 01:57 |
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Without Googling it, what's the default AD for IGRP
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:02 |
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Pudgygiant posted:Without Googling it, what's the default AD for IGRP Its not that we don't understand your point. You don't have to reword it again. Its just flawed and self serving. I won't feed this anymore today, I promise.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:07 |
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Pudgygiant posted:Without Googling it, what's the default AD for IGRP 100 What do I win?
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:09 |
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routenull0 posted:If you could knock out something like Security+ you could open a few doors with government contracting job....given you can obtain and hold at least a Secret clearance. It's pretty much impossible to not get a secret clearance unless you've dated multiple foreign nationals or can't hold off smoking weed for more than a week. Also abandon hope all ye who enter government contracting. The
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:10 |
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psydude posted:It's pretty much impossible to not get a secret clearance unless you've dated multiple foreign nationals or can't hold off smoking weed for more than a week. I was basing my statement off that, this is in fact, SomethingAwful... It's been so long since I had to deal with only a Secret clearance, that I can't even remember how deep they looked at me.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:14 |
Sickening posted:Jesus loving christ. It doesn't matter how much you try to reword it, its not going to come out a way that isn't morally bankrupt. You don't possess the knowledge to pass the CCNP, so instead you cheat it. You cheat yourself and everyone else as well in the process. You are nothing more than another member of a large group of people who doesn't want to loving learn poo poo anymore. I think the argument that you are competing against other dumpers for jobs IS actually legitimate, everything else is pure bullshit though. I'll just say that when I was trying to become a network engineer originally, it was so loving hard to get my foot in the door even with degree, experience, and CCNA. It would be SO nice if there were real tests where you could prove yourself and were accepted by everybody. I don't really know of any test people hold in esteem anymore besides the CCIE. I've noticed when I was looking for work before that every place is doing in depth technical interviews now. Also, while there are bullshit questions on all the tests, you actually DO have to know AD values subsconsciously or you are going to screw yourself not understand why a route isnt showing up. I don't know what purpose questions like "How many hosts can you have in a /21 subnet", and "What is the hello timer for this protocol?" serve though.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:14 |
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Getting your foot in the door is about three things: 1) Luck 2) Preparation 3) Knowing people Certs will help you with number 2. Number 1 is beyond your control (aside from maybe putting yourself in a position to be lucky); 3 is the one thing you can control.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:17 |
psydude posted:Getting your foot in the door is about three things: #3 is really bullshit and just as much cheating as dumping is. Everything people talking about with 'Knowing people' is just ways for them to get jobs over more qualified candidates.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:21 |
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Mugaaz posted:I think the argument that you are competing against other dumpers for jobs IS actually legitimate, everything else is pure bullshit though. The only part of the CCIE that cannot be 100% braindumped is the lab and this is because Cisco changes the troubleshooting lab and the configuration lab frequently in hopes to cull the masses building IOU/GNS3 dumps. But people still do "braindump" it enough to pass. Why DO I need to know the AD values? If a route is not showing up, I have plenty of other ways of figuring out why it hasn't been installed in the routing table: code:
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:22 |
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Mugaaz posted:#3 is really bullshit and just as much cheating as dumping is. Everything people talking about with 'Knowing people' is just ways for them to get jobs over more qualified candidates. Yes. That's how life works, deal with it. e: To put this in perspective: who would you rather hire, someone who you know has the experience and qualifications you're looking for, and whose personality you know will work well with your team and your organization, or someone who you don't know who has slightly better qualifications and experience? psydude fucked around with this message at 02:25 on May 16, 2013 |
# ? May 16, 2013 02:22 |
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psydude posted:Yes. That's how life works, deal with it. "It's not about what you know, but who you know" I don't have an issue with networking with people. I try to do it as often as I can, especially in the DoD arena. The more people that recognize my name, the better chances at that GS15 I got
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:24 |
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psydude posted:Yes. That's how life works, deal with it. Bingo. And with the kind of competition you see now, the only unfair advantage in job hunting is the one you don't possess.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:29 |
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routenull0 posted:"It's not about what you know, but who you know" Pissing off (or on) Obama is basically the only way to get fired as a GS15 right?
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:30 |
psydude posted:Yes. That's how life works, deal with it. I understand and accept it, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend it isn't as morally bankrupt as cheating. I've never gotten a single job, ever, through networking. I guarantee you if we had more meritocracy going on and less politicking we would have much better economy going. Every place I've worked has done this poo poo with promotions based on knowing people, or time, or going to the same church as the head manager, its all bullshit. I work there for a year or two, make them a shitload of money, then they act all surprised when I leave. I've adapted to the situation, but I'm not going to resort to this poo poo unless it becomes a matter of life or death survival. Also I don't really see the personality thing being an issue except in a few extreme cases. I've worked with people who I would never in a million years hang out with, but I'd rather work with them for the rest of my natural life than with good friends I have. Teams made up of only like minded people are REALLY bad when it comes to coming up with original ideas or have very varied skill sets. I worked on a team composed of southern hilbillys, indian H1Bs, bikers, and super nerds and it was a MUCH better team than other places I've been where it was all guys who went to the same high school or college. The only "personality" issues that get in the way of work are anti-social behavior and if you can't sniff that out in an interview, then you probably got your job through networking.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:44 |
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Pudgygiant posted:Pissing off (or on) Obama is basically the only way to get fired as a GS15 right? No. GS15 is nothing if you are looking at civil service from an Obama perspective. You first need to move from GS15 to SES to get on the radar, then things get interesting. But the only real ways to get 'fired' as a civil service employee are like gross misconduct and insubordination. There are ways to 'force' a civil service person out of a job like making them their position no longer needed at that facility and moving to Guam. Their options are to transfer to Guam, quit/retire(if eligible), or apply for other civilian jobs where they would get first-come first-serve treatment for being on MDR(manager directed relocation) or similar. H.R. Paperstacks fucked around with this message at 02:51 on May 16, 2013 |
# ? May 16, 2013 02:47 |
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routenull0 posted:No. GS15 is nothing if you are looking at civil service from an Obama perspective. You first need to move from GS15 to SES to get on the radar, then things get interesting. Seriously? I'm only a GS13 equivalent, not even a real GS13, and I already trump everybody except CSM, generals, and emergency leave when it comes to flights.
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# ? May 16, 2013 02:51 |
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Pudgygiant posted:Seriously? I'm only a GS13 equivalent, not even a real GS13, and I already trump everybody except CSM, generals, and emergency leave when it comes to flights. GS13 is essentially 50/50 technical action and paper pusher. You can land a GS13-1 without a college degree if you have enough experience in the field *and* area of agency. GS14-1 is solely paperwork and zero technical action and is almost impossible without a Bachelors though. Good luck getting a salary match now though, even before the sequestration it was tough. When I say "technical action" I mean logging into anything (server/router/switch) and having any authority. Edit: Keep in mind, that after GS15-10, the only options for advancement are to go SES, which are I-V. You obviously can go SES before GS15-10, but GS15-10 is the top of the GS payscale. H.R. Paperstacks fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 16, 2013 |
# ? May 16, 2013 02:55 |
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routenull0 posted:But the only real ways to get 'fired' as a civil service employee are like gross misconduct and insubordination. There are ways to 'force' a civil service person out of a job like making them their position no longer needed at that facility and moving to Guam. Their options are to transfer to Guam, quit/retire(if eligible), or apply for other civilian jobs where they would get first-come first-serve treatment for being on MDR(manager directed relocation) or similar. Which is why our utterly useless "Senior" Network Engineer is still around. Contractors do 90% of the actual work at my job.
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# ? May 16, 2013 03:09 |
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psydude posted:Which is why our utterly useless "Senior" Network Engineer is still around. Contractors do 90% of the actual work at my job. He is there to "supervise" in a government capacity...... Contractors do 90% of the actual work in all of Government.
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# ? May 16, 2013 03:12 |
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psydude posted:Which is why our utterly useless "Senior" Network Engineer is still around. Contractors do 90% of the actual work at my job. Look I told you I'm leaving soon, you don't have to rub it in
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# ? May 16, 2013 03:13 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 05:43 |
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Ganon posted:This article from years ago says MS uses forensics and can tell if you studied from dumps A testing center at an IT academy I was affiliated with got a call from MS one day saying that their candidates were finishing tests too fast and their MS IT Academy status was in trouble of being revoked. The testing center administrator pulled the photocopies of result sheets from the previous six months and figured out that students were taking an expected amount of time (eg over an hour) to finish a 2-3 hour exam. The members of the public, however, were averaging something stupid like 20 minutes. She forwarded this to Microsoft and they dropped the whole thing.
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# ? May 16, 2013 03:30 |