|
smokieye posted:
I'm having a similar suspicion. The Doc figured the puzzle out by realizing that the police was delayed for a specific reason. Maybe it was because a policeman was the murderer. The Granges are also suspicious simply because of how heavily they are involved. Stephen has contacts to the coroner, he found the gun, he knows about the caves (which IIRC would be a good place to dump the bodies into the sea). Molly was the first person to introduce Barry to everyone. Did we ever find out what she wanted to show the Doc? I'm stumped so far. Might have to reread it before I come up with a theory.
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 11:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 05:57 |
|
|
 I never even thought of Craft. Now I need to read like the entire book again.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 12:01
|
|
|
So I won't be able to do a full re-read like some of you are suggesting so I will have to rely on any of you who are to post any details you find. I think I am going to make a list of characters and different hanging threads/clues on my lunch break and post it here in case it helps with any discussion and speculation. I feel like this has almost the opposite situation that most of the previous books had where in this case we almost have too much weirdness from multiple characters going on. Like we have whatever Molly wanted to show the Doc, we have the weird Emperor Nero clues, Tom having the key to the diamond case, several other characters acting suspiciously, etc. I just can't narrow down a specific motive for anyone. Aside from Rita's surprise I would think her and Barry cut the wires and drained the petrol in order to make good on their escape. Now I am not sure what to think.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 16:24
|
|
|
By the way, if you guys want an updated character list or summary of anything to help you get through this final stretch just let me know and I'll do my best to help.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 01:29
|
|
|
Okay, I started reading it over again. I'm not going to spoiler this due to it being early chapters. Rita met Barry Sullivan through Molly Grange. Why was Barry visiting Molly? Rita took her diamonds with her, I think, because in Chapter 4, when Dr Luke discovered the footprints and came in to tell Alec, Alec's words were quote:"Her clothes are still there," he said through cracked lips. "But --" So whoever shot them must have taken the diamonds. More as I read a bit more. Edit: Did anybody catch the Swinburne reference at the beginning of the book? Rita said Alec called her Dolores, as in Our Lady of Pain. Zola fucked around with this message at 03:09 on May 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 01:44
|
|
|
Sherringford posted:By the way, if you guys want an updated character list or summary of anything to help you get through this final stretch just let me know and I'll do my best to help. Have mercy on us, lord love a duck! A summary of clues or facts would be very helpful! The Duke of Avon posted:
-Could it be the studio? If I were Rita or Barry I feel it's reasonable to prepare the suitcases and stuff at some safe place beforehand, so I could leave without hassle after getting back from the cliff. If the murderer found out about this place or he was helping them leaving, he could just wait there on Saturday night. Later he could move the bodies using Barry's car. (I can't believe Craft still didn't try to fish out the car from quicksand.) -I'm still very puzzled about why the gun wasn't dumped into the sea...This seemed an extremely unwise decision for the killer since it's the strongest evidence indicating murder. Maybe someone else drop it...?  ... -The gun was found at 1:30 Sunday morning, the bodies 2 days later. So can we assume that they were died by midnight not later?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 08:21
|
|
|
Well I am officially pretty stumped, but I am going to write this out to see if it helps along anyone else. Here is what we "know" so far: So at this point I think we can all agree upon the fact that Rita and Barry did attempt to fake a suicide to escape the country. They stole a garden roller from Willie Johnson to cover their tracks and then fled the scene. There is strong evidence that they did in fact take the diamonds (the scene with Wainright holding up the key) but that they were later returned (or else replacements were). They may have cut the phone wires and drained the petrol from the cars to delay pursuit BUT this seems unlikely due to Rita's reaction (posted by smokieye above) and the fact that this clue is what tipped Luke off just before the close of the last chapter (not to mention that it would make their "suicide" look suspicious). From there they were murdered some distance away (possibly where the gun was found?), and then their bodies were dumped somewhere where they would wash up near the cliffs, most likely near the caves someone mentioned (what else do we know about those?) So some hanging threads: -The key and the diamonds: it is likely that whoever killed them recovered the diamonds and possibly returned them. Alec Wainright had the key and at one point Tom did, but it is possible someone else could have gotten the key in his state. -The "Emperor Nero" vision from Willie Johnson: we know Willie is a raving drunk but it seems too big a coincidence that he reported Emperor Nero smoking a cigar and speaking to him when HM is having his portrait taken as a roman senator and loves cigars. The latest sighting was when Nero gave him ten shillings but then chased him in a "chair with wings", so this seems to be HM. I don't know if this indicates that HM has done something and is trying to bribe Johnson or if Johnson is drinking from a guilty conscience. Because of HM's detective work I am starting to think the latter and that Johnson knows something. -Love triangles: Rita had had previous ex-lovers so it could have been one of them, perhaps Ferrars or Steve Grange? Likewise, Molly and Belle both had reason to be murder Rita out of jealousy. This also fits in with the person crying (mourning their lover), although we would have to assume Belle was telling the truth. I am leaning toward that fact because the car thing is too big a clue, the crying gives us a clue to the killer's motive and it seems odd otherwise for Belle to interject herself into the story and give away the location of a major clue like the car without any reason for doing so. On second thought, after writing some of this out I am starting to get more of a theory although I want to wait to see what other people think and probably post something later this afternoon.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 19:53
|
|
|
Here's an updated character list: INSPECTOR CRAFT: The "official police investigator" involved in the story. He believes that Dr. Luke is lying about the suicides because he can't think of any other explanation. DR LUKE CROXLEY The narrator. He’s an old semi-retired family doctor whose only living relative is his son Dr. Tom—his wife having passed away before the story started. A somewhat grumpy, old fashioned man. DR TOM CROXLEY Dr. Luke’s son and a passionate doctor. His father describes him best: “He is the born country G.P.; he loves his work as I loved it. When Tom goes to see a patient, he gets wrapped up in the case and tells the patient all the imposing medical terms for what’s wrong with him. This impresses and pleases the patient; it inspires confidence to start with.” RITA WAINRIGHT Thirty-eight year old woman married to Alec Wainright and known to have an affair with Barry Sullivan. It was generally accepted by everyone that everyone knew about her affair except for Dr. Luke and Alec. Most importantly, she’s one of the two victims. ALEC WAINRIGHT Sixty-year old man married to Rita. He is known to enjoy alcohol a bit more than he should. He knew of the affair, but pretended not to know—thus making Dr. Luke the only one who didn’t know about it for a long time. He’s a bit of a nervous wreck and has an obsession with the news. In the past, people thought of him as a confident man, but this is no longer the case as the whole situation has taken quite a toll on him. MOLLY GRANGE Described by Dr.Luke as “a straightforward, sensible, pretty girl in her middle twenties. She had the fair hair and blue eyes of her mother, with her father’s practicality.” She is the daughter of Stephen Grange, who is the town’s local solicitor. She’s also the one responsible for introducing Rita to Barry Sullivan. STEPHEN GRANGE He’s a solicitor at Barnstaple, but he lives here at Lyncombe. He's also said to have had an argument with Rita about something. BARRY SULLIVAN A young American man of about Molly’s age who had an affair with Rita. Dr. Luke described him as being rather good looking, “but not offensively so.” SIR HENRY MERRIVALE Said to be a detective of sorts. Currently staying with Paul Ferrars. He has fractured his toe somehow(“He was up to some shenanigans – can’t imagine what—“ as described by Tom) and was examined by Dr. Tom. He also supposedly swears a whole lot and will be kept in a wheelchair for six weeks at least. PAUL FERRARS The poor bastard who has to live with the great Sir Henry Merrivalve for now. Also, a painter. JOHNSON The gardener. Alec fired him before the story started, Rita citing incompetence as the reason. BELLE SUILLIVAN Barry's supposed wife. Claims to have chased after Barry all the way to the town the story takes place and then having gone through a series of events that ended with her being trapped in a room. Clue Summary: As for the clue summary, I had a rather lengthy list typed out but I think I need to refrain from using it. Actually knowing the solution to the mystery makes anything I point out suspicious by nature even if it's not spoilerish in itself. Plus there is the question of "If he didn't list this, does it mean it's not important?" that I would rather not get into. So instead what I'm going to do is to sum up what makes the crime impossible so that the problem is outlined as clearly as possible. --There are footprints leading up to the lover's leap and no footprints leading out of it. --Craft affirms that it is absolutely impossible for those footprints to have been faked. Again, if Craft and his team of policemen are correct, then those two people walked all the way up to the top of the lover's leap. --Again according to evidence, they were killed by close-range gunshots. --The confirmed weapon(again according to what the police tells us) was found nowhere close the lover's leap. --Therefore we are posed with this scenario as Craft summed it up all the way back in chapter Six: quote:‘You see how it stands. Two persons were shot as they stood on the very edge of a cliff. The murderer couldn’t have climbed up or down that cliff. Presumably he couldn’t fly. Yet he approached them and got away without leaving a footprint on that whole expanse of soil. If we hadn’t found the weapon later, it would have been a perfect crime passing as a double suicide. It may be a perfect crime even yet. I’d be interested to hear what you think about it.’
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 20:38
|
|
|
I think we've all read up to the latest segment at this point, so how about we continue discussion without spoiler tags now? The crux of the mystery is a set of contradicting assumptions about the crime scene. Interestingly, the mystery is only tangentially related to the murder itself. The question that will solve this case, in my mind, is: How did the victims leave the cliffside? Here are some possible answers: 1. The victims did not leave the cliffside. This would require them to have been somehow hidden at the cliffside when it was investigated. This seems pretty drat improbable. 2. The victims left down the cliff. The book clearly states that nobody could scale the cliff, so this would've been a lethal trip. The question raised here is: If they died falling off the cliff, then why bother shooting them? 3. The victims escaped in some way that hid their footprints. The shape of the footprints seems to suggest they were carrying something between them. A footprint-obscuring device? 4. The victims were killed at the cliff, then thrown off. However, then we have the same problem again - how did the murderer leave the cliffside? 5. The victims were never at the cliffside. The footprints were somehow made before or after the crime. This seems unlikely, though due to the scientific analysis of the prints. Anyone got any others? Of these, #3 seems the most likely, but it's still missing some plausibility.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 21:20
|
|
|
I am pretty set on 3 being the answer. The fact that the footprints were in lock-step implies they were carrying something, and such a big deal was made out of someone "stealing" something from Johnson and that thing turned out to be a garden roller. It is the only thing that fits with this evidence. Also reading back, the caves were said to only be accessible during high tide (at 4pm and 1am), and above The Duke pointed out that the killer may have been waiting for high tide to disguise the lack of bodies. Instead, I think he may have been waiting for high tide for a chance to ditch the bodies out there without anyone intercepting him. And now I am fairly convinced it was a crime of passion and that the killer was in love with one of them, but was trusted enough for Rita to ask them for help. So they knew the details of the plan, intercepted and murdered them, and then went to hide the car and broke down in tears. So that gives me motive and method but I still don't have a solid suspect for my theory. Right now I am leaning toward either Stephen or Molly Grange. I think Rita came to Stephen for help not just with the diamonds but with the plan in general. Either Stephen got angry because he is in love with her and refused to help, or else he got angry (because he disapproved?) and Molly overheard and decided to murder them out of love for Barry. If it was Molly I think Stephen knows and has been trying to cover for her. The only major hole in my theory is that Stephen turned in the gun instead of ditching it, although if it was in fact Molly she might not have told him until after he turned it in and he then tried to cover for her. There is also my whole pet theory with Johnson, and Molly specifically says that her father surprised her by saying he would help him, this might be to shut him up if he knows something.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 22:12
|
|
|
Ahh thank you! Sherringford and Guy!Guy A. Person posted:garden roller. I guess this is the likely tool they used to erase footprints, the rain may did a great deal of good too. Also Alec told Dr. Luke, Rita fired Johnson some days before Saturday, she probably didn't want the gardener find his stolen roller in his employer's house. The roller was maybe dumped into the sea with the bodies, or still in the summer house of Rita and Alec's... Other than jealousy/revenge I can't find a suitable motive either since the diamonds were not lost. This and the gun puzzle me the most now...  Edit: Just found out there was one piece missing from Rita's drawer. Only one of them, a bracelet-case, was empty. The only stone represented was a diamond. (Chapter 15) I'm not sure if this is relevant. 
smokieye fucked around with this message at 00:14 on May 30, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 23:35
|
|
|
Well, for starts, let's take that list and start striking names from it. The easy four: Luke, Henry, Rita, Barry. We've had Luke's POV for the entire book, so we know he didn't do it. Henry is the sleuth, and wasn't in town until after the murder, so I think it would be in pretty poor form for Carr to make him the killer. Rita and Barry are dead, and neither of them fired the gun. That leaves Craft, Tom, Alec, Molly, Stephen, Paul, Johnson, and Belle as suspects. Because of the scene with the key that we're all jumping back to, I'm inclined to relieve Alec of suspicion. Is there anyone else we can prove wasn't involved?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 00:24
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:2. The victims left down the cliff. The book clearly states that nobody could scale the cliff, so this would've been a lethal trip. The question raised here is: If they died falling off the cliff, then why bother shooting them? Thought of something here: when the police get there the tide is in, "thirty feet up." That would make it a forty foot jump into the water, so that's doable. They could've cut the wires and let out the petrol because they needed to hang around a few hours longer before they could escape. Though I guess if they did that then the footprints Luke saw would've been different from the ones the police saw...would he have noticed any differences?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 01:13
|
|
|
The footprints suggested that they were running, too. What if Barry and Rita took a running jump off the cliff to land in the water? What if their escape was successful, then the murderer tracked them down, killed them, and returned the diamonds they had stolen to fund their escape? Would this be possible?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 01:27
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:That leaves Craft, Tom, Alec, Molly, Stephen, Paul, Johnson, and Belle as suspects. Because of the scene with the key that we're all jumping back to, I'm inclined to relieve Alec of suspicion. Is there anyone else we can prove wasn't involved? I would leave off Belle as her entrance into the story is odd if she is a serious suspect. I agree with your removal of Alec, and I would leave off Craft as he seems to have no motive aside from being a bit of a jerk. Johnson also seems too perpetually drunk to have pulled it off, although this could be a recent development due to guilt. The rest all have a potential scorned lover motive, especially since Rita didn't seem to have any typical preference on age.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 02:18
|
|
|
Belle would be a clunky culprit for three main reasons: -She was introduced 40% of the way through the book, long after the murder took place. -There wouldn't be any reason for her to add so many details in her story if she was trying to look innocent. -The shed she was found in was locked from the outside. According to that logic, I think we can cut her from the list. The others are doubtful, but "no obvious motive" isn't the same thing as "innocent".
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 02:29
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:That leaves Craft, Tom, Alec, Molly, Stephen, Paul, Johnson, and Belle as suspects. Because of the scene with the key that we're all jumping back to, I'm inclined to relieve Alec of suspicion. Is there anyone else we can prove wasn't involved? This is silly but does having HM as a visitor count as an alibi for Paul Ferras? He didn't have to stay at home all the time but if he did go out at some questionable occasion, HM should know since he is our man?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 02:54
|
|
|
smokieye posted:This is silly but does having HM as a visitor count as an alibi for Paul Ferras? He didn't have to stay at home all the time but if he did go out at some questionable occasion, HM should know since he is our man? This is a good point, actually. I think HM's silence proves Paul hasn't disappeared long enough to commit any crimes. One fewer, leaving us with Craft, Tom, Alec, Molly, Stephen, and Johnson. We should be careful with alibis, though, since we still don't know exactly when the crime was committed.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 03:17
|
|
|
That is a good point, although I am placing a decent amount of faith in HM so it would surprise me if he missed a clue from the guy he is staying with. We haven't found a way to discount either of my suspects so I am sticking with them. Maybe Zola's re-read will provide more insight.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 03:46
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:The footprints suggested that they were running, too. What if Barry and Rita took a running jump off the cliff to land in the water? What if their escape was successful, then the murderer tracked them down, killed them, and returned the diamonds they had stolen to fund their escape? Would this be possible? I think I have the explanation for the footprints. Barry and Rita ran side by side to the edge of the cliff, thus causing the footprints. While it is possible that they walked dragging the roller between them, I would think that the weight would have made the whole footprint deeper than usual, rather than just the toe, although it actually doesn't matter if they had the roller with them or not. What matters is that they walked back in the area between the two sets of footprints and the roller was used to erase those tracks. I am quite sure this was done in advance, and I would almost bet that Johnson saw Barry erasing the prints. Barry would have gotten rid of the roller, though, rather than returning it, which is why Johnson was so sure that Wainright had "stolen" his roller, if that were the last place Johnson had seen it. I think that Barry also cut the phone lines and drained the tanks--remember, he supposedly stayed out to bring in the beach chairs, and came in dusting his hands off with a handkerchief. He did that so that he and Rita would have time to get to the car that he had concealed at the studio at Baker's Bridge Road, which, according to Chapter 8, is a half-mile from the Wainright's house. However, they met someone on the way, someone who shot them. I think that person was Molly. I think she often took the walk on Baker's Bridge Road and spied on Rita. I suspect that Rita's first affair was with Paul Ferrars when he painted her portrait, but I also think that the affair ended amicably. I think the man she was with that Molly told Craft et al about was actually Molly's father, Stephen Grange, and I think that the reason they quarreled wasn't because Rita tried to get him to sell her diamonds but because she turned him down. I don't know if Molly was lying or honestly didn't realize it was her father she had seen with Rita. I think that Molly was jealous of Rita sleeping with the men that Molly liked, and that she hated Barry for choosing Rita instead of her. I think Stephen Grange discovered what his daughter had done and tried to cover it up. I think she killed them shortly after they had left the house, else he would have just brought the bodies to sink with the car and no one would have been the wiser. He probably found out about the car from Molly a bit later on and took care of that the next day (Sunday). I think he was the one who returned the diamonds, when Dr. Luke was walking back and Wainright was collapsed and not likely to hear him. Any facts that I've missed here? Does this make anyone think of anything? 
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 04:10
|
|
|
I think this explanation works pretty well. They were hurrying (not sprinting) because they couldn't be caught erasing the footprints without raising suspicion. But after that, we still have a lot of questions. If they weren't killed at the cliffside, then they could have been killed anywhere, by anyone, at any time. Why do you think Johnson saw them? Wouldn't he have mentioned something about it? Has he gotten any screentime at all? The Molly stuff sounds plausible, but I don't see any proof. How can we be sure?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 04:35
|
|
|
That's the same problem I am having. I can't see any solid proof that anyone had to be the murderer. The closest is Stephen Grange having the murder weapon and Tom having the key to the chest, but otherwise I don't see a solid suspect.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 05:01
|
|
|
Yeah, same. I can't seem to get any further on this one. I think it's either Grange or Tom, for the same reasons. I like Zola's Molly theory though...I don't know.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 05:33
|
|
|
Significant clues that we haven't tied to any one person, in stream of consciousness: -The contents of the suitcase are women's clothing, but we don't know whose. Most plausible theory is Rita, which would get us nowhere. -Somebody cut the phone wires and let the petrol out of the cars. Who? Why? -Johnson was fired at the beginning. I forget who did it, but is it relevant? -If the diamonds were stolen, then they were discreetly returned. Why? -I'm rereading Belle's testimony and trying to remember the timeline of everything. It was Sunday - is that before or after the cliffside vanishing? Frig, we don't even have the time of death! -If we believe Belle, then Barry's car was around, but he was never seen with it before his death. Theory: The car was stowed elsewhere so that he could get to it after his fake suicide. The phone lines and cars were sabotaged to give him and Rita time to escape before people started looking for him. Still doesn't tell us who did it. -Reading more, it sounds like Barry was dead (allegedly) by Sunday. So, someone else stole his car. Who could have access to his keys at that point? I think only the killer. The killer was driving that car. -The person in the car was crying, and was male. If we assume that this was our killer, then we can eliminiate Molly. But why were they crying? This definitely supports the "crime of passion" theory. Actually, the driver of the mystery car being male puts a big crack in the Molly Theory. If Molly is the killer, then who was driving Barry's car on Sunday?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 06:34
|
|
|
I agree most of Zola's theory about the murder process with a different suspect. (I especially like the part about those footprints were set up beforehand.) In my mind the murderer was always male...I have an uncertain guess: Barry killed Rita(motive: diamonds) and later Tom killed Barry(motive: revenge)and returned the diamonds. I feel only jealousy is a bit of an insufficient motive to carry out murder(from my own opinion), while money and revenge are both very high motivations. Again, like you guys mentioned, seems everyone in town could pull this off! Even Johnson if he had enough enthusiasm towards Rita, although he may wanted to exchange those diamonds to whiskey passingly... I prefer Tom because he had the key for a period of time and chances to get near Rita/Alec/Barry. This kind of explained why the gun was meant to be found, since what he wanted is justice so he didn't like Rita's death to be mistaken for suicide. He may or may not kept one of Rita's diamond bracelet as a keepsake, and those tears in the studio was simply grieved but not regret. I know I'm too stubborn to let Tom go... Would like to hear everyone's theory now!  Edit Backup Theory: It's Craft. He dropped the gun accidentally because artificial eye couldn't see well at night.  ... I'm 95% Tom 5% Craft.
smokieye fucked around with this message at 08:30 on May 30, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 07:58
|
|
|
I don't necessarily think that solving the cliff puzzle will lead to the murderer. It's just another clue in the chain of events that transpired that evening. The garden roller theory is pretty solid and I believe it doesn't really point towards anybody specific. For a while I also thought they might have used a hangglider to somehow get to the caves, but I like the garden roller theory better because it explains Johnson's statement. Some clues that I think might lead to the murderer: why was the pistol tossed by the roadside (doesn't make any sense for the murderer)? Who gave Rita her new pass (might have been in on their scheme)? Why were the wires cut (this is how the Doc solved the riddle)? I can't provide anything more constructive yet since I'm still rereading the book. My eyes are set on the Granges and Tom.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 09:54
|
|
|
smokieye posted:I agree most of Zola's theory about the murder process with a different suspect. (I especially like the part about those footprints were set up beforehand.) Now that I'm seeing what everyone said, it occurs to me that Tom probably *did* know Rita's plans, because who gave Rita the falsified statement that allowed her to get a passport? The thing is, Stephen Grange just seemed to be altogether too eager to have the matter declared a suicide. And something else bugged me--his theory about the gun. I don't believe I'm particularly unobservant, but without just having seen it, I doubt I could describe a section of my best friend's back yard in as much detail as SG did when he offered his theory. quote:The gun must have fallen on that tiny little semicircular patch of scrub grass on the edge of Lover's Leap. While you were lying at full length, looking over the edge, you could have reached out with a cane and hooked the gun towards you. Really? What, does SG have a photographic memory or something? He must have gone and looked to be able to say that, and why would he have done that? I also note that just prior, SG had nodded towards a wall of books at the back of the room and said "We're great crime readers here." A little bit before that, Molly had said that SG was going to be awfully cross about the mess because he hated being mixed up in any such situation, even as The Man Who Found The Gun. Something else occurs to me. We know from police analysis of the footprints that the man was five feet eleven inches tallm, weighed eleven stone ten (14 pounds in a stone, making him 164 lbs) and wore number nine shoe. The woman was five feet six inches tall, weighted nine stone four (130 lbs) and wore number five shoe. Are Stephen Grange and his daughter about that size?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 15:31
|
|
|
So I actually had another thought about the whole "waiting for high tide" and access to the caves angle: So a few people made good points about Barry going out to "bring in the chairs" and then coming in wiping his hands, so it likely means that he was the one who drained the petrol and cut the phone lines. Does this mean that perhaps Rita and Barry were heading out to the caves to rendezvous with someone? More importantly, how do the caves factor in at all? They couldn't have just been used to dump the bodies, because if you have to take a boat to the caves anyway why not just dump the bodies off the boat? But then they have specifically mentioned the caves several times as well as giving the times for high tide, so it is unlikely they won't factor in. New theory: maybe you need to wait until high tide to access certain caves from the sea, but there could be another entrance to at least a few of them. So maybe instead of waiting for high tide to get to the caves, they were waiting for high tide to exit the caves. So they were planning on making an escape by boat out of one of the caves. Does this make sense? Do we know anyone else with a boat?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 15:39
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:-The person in the car was crying, and was male. If we assume that this was our killer, then we can eliminiate Molly. But why were they crying? This definitely supports the "crime of passion" theory. One quick clarification/dispute here: Belle assumed it was Barry and therefor a man, but when she thought they were suggesting that "the floosie" may have been driving the car, she thought it could have been her and didn't say anything to insist that it had to have been a man. -- So I don't know about anyone else, but I am pretty eager to move ahead and find out what parts of our speculation are right. So I am going to lock in my official theory, although if anyone else has some insight yet to come I may revise: I believe the murderer was Molly Grange. Zola paints a solid picture but I have some slight differences. So chronologically, here is how I believe this played out. 1. Molly hinted that Rita had had other affairs, and I believe Stephen Grange was one of them and that Molly found out about this which caused her to dislike Rita. 2. Molly introduces Barry to Rita. There has been lots of speculation on who Molly liked, with Luke hoping it would be Tom and others suspecting Paul, but nobody ever mentions Barry. I think she did have a thing for Barry and got jealous of his and Rita's relationship. 3. I don't think Rita just went to Stephen Grange to sell the diamonds, I believe she asked for his help escaping as well. They argued because Stephen disapproved or even refused to help but the important part is that this tipped Molly off to the details. 4. Rita and Barry make good on their plan; they steal the diamonds, cut the phone wires, drain the petrol, and then stage their "suicide" by the edge of the cliff, cover their tracks and take off. They plan to leave from the caves by boat. I think they did this to avoid being discovered on their way to get the car and cover their tracks. There is a bridge by the studio so I will assume that they would be able to access by boat. 5. Molly knows where they are going so she ambushes them with her father's gun and shoves their lifeless bodies into the ocean. She later feigns ignorance when Belle wants to go to these same caves even thought she knows there is another entrance; specifically she wants to discourage anyone from going and getting more evidence. 6. In her grief and shock she forgets to ditch the gun and lets it drop by the side of the road. Her father picks it up and turns it into the police but then later discovers what his daughter did and changes up his whole story about the murder, instead implicating Dr. Luke. 7. I agree with Zola that Stephen Grange was that one who then went and dumped the car the following day, and was in greif about Rita's death and his daughter's crime. He wanted the suicide angle played up and Barry having a car stashed nearby might tarnish that theory. 8. Molly was close to confessing to Dr. Luke (the thing she wanted to show him) but her father interrupted her and has since probably convinced her to keep everything covered up. 9. Stephen/Molly returned the diamonds in order to cement the suicide theory. 10. Johnson may have stumbled on something at some point which is why Stephen agreed to help him to shut him up. I think he actually knew relatively soon on and Grange may have bribed him. I think his extreme drunkenness and visions of judgement have to do with guilt over what he knows, and Grange picked up on this and agreed to "help". Otherwise, I also like smokieye's main theory as a backup theory for me. As I said before, I am fairly certain on Barry and Rita's plan (although I am slightly iffy on the whole cave angle), and I am also 90% certain that the motive was jealousy and not greed, but I still can't perfectly slot in a suspect. I think Molly comes closest, followed by Tom, then maybe Stephen Grange himself. I don't buy the others on our narrowed list (Alec, Craft, Johnson) for various reasons, but I am sure we can go back and forth on that. Guy A. Person fucked around with this message at 20:07 on May 30, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 19:16
|
|
|
All right, I think I'm on board at this point. Put me down for the Molly Culprit Theory.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 19:21
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:Otherwise, I also like smokieye's main theory as a backup theory for me. As I said before, I am fairly certain on Barry and Rita's plan (although I am slightly iffy on the whole cave angle), and I am also 90% certain that the motive was jealousy and not greed, but I still can't perfectly slot in a suspect. I think Molly comes closest, followed by Tom, then maybe Stephen Grange himself. I don't buy the others on our narrowed list (Alec, Craft, Johnson) for various reasons, but I am sure we can go back and forth on that. Well, I do think Tom knows a lot more than he is saying because as I said, somebody gave Rita the letter she needed to get the fake passport. He was the perfect person to return the diamonds as well.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
Zola posted:Well, I do think Tom knows a lot more than he is saying because as I said, somebody gave Rita the letter she needed to get the fake passport. He was the perfect person to return the diamonds as well. That is a good point. I am hesitant to say all 3 of the top suspects are involved because that seems way too sloppy. So if it is Tom I would say that the Granges aren't involved at all and he is acting alone. And Stephen Grange was just being a know-it-all naysayer when he gave his whole story implicating Luke. Or maybe Grange is helping Tom because he fancied Tom for a successful doctor son-in-law. Still, if Tom and Molly are potential lovers it destroys any motive I can think of, so I think it has to be Tom acting alone or Molly acting with help from her father, I just can't form a decisive answer on which.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 21:14
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:That is a good point. I am hesitant to say all 3 of the top suspects are involved because that seems way too sloppy. So if it is Tom I would say that the Granges aren't involved at all and he is acting alone. And Stephen Grange was just being a know-it-all naysayer when he gave his whole story implicating Luke. Or maybe Grange is helping Tom because he fancied Tom for a successful doctor son-in-law. Still, if Tom and Molly are potential lovers it destroys any motive I can think of, so I think it has to be Tom acting alone or Molly acting with help from her father, I just can't form a decisive answer on which. If Tom was sweet on Molly, SG might have been able to convince him that it was a terrible accident that looked bad...
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 21:25
|
|
|
I'm trying to reread this book but for some reason I find it a little hard to follow so I'll stop now. My grasp on the clues is a little lackluster but it will have to do. Just to be contrary I'll go out on a limb and say Barry Sullivan is still alive because Belle has yet to identify his body. Stephen is too suspicious for me so he's involved too, probably as the mastermind. He has a coroner-buddy who provided the fake Barry in exchange for the stolen diamond. He's the one who provided Rita with the fake credentials, but he wants to use them for Molly instead, to get her out of the country before the Nazis come. So he somehow motivated/forced Barry to kill Rita. Barry is the one who disposed of the car and locked Belle into his hideout because he didn't know what else to do. 
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2013 13:44
|
|
|
So I got impatient on my bus ride home and went ahead and finished. Obviously I won't say anything further to give anything away to people still discussing, but Carr does a really neat narrative trick in the last chapter which I am eager to discuss. I think this is the best of these we have done, or at least my personal favorite.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2013 00:17
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:So I got impatient on my bus ride home and went ahead and finished. Obviously I won't say anything further to give anything away to people still discussing, but Carr does a really neat narrative trick in the last chapter which I am eager to discuss. I think this is the best of these we have done, or at least my personal favorite. You and me both! On that note, I think everybody is more or less settled on their final theories or at least very close to it. Everybody, feel free to post one last theory if you want but I'll go ahead and assign the rest of the book. I think I might have waited a bit too much on this but Carr's novels have so many details that I figured it was better to give everyone a week or so for their final theory. Let's go!
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2013 00:41
|
|
|
Man I must suck at detectives, because I don't have a clue who could have done it  I'll read the finale tomorrow.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2013 00:43
|
|
|
Sherringford posted:I think I might have waited a bit too much on this but Carr's novels have so many details that I figured it was better to give everyone a week or so for their final theory. Let's go! Haha no I don't think you waited too long, there was a lot of good discussion going on; I just wasn't sure if I would have any time to read over the weekend and happened to finish the other book I was reading right before I boarded my bus and figured I would finish this instead of starting a new book. I'll post the rest of my thoughts when everyone else gets a chance to finish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2013 02:17
|
|
|
Am I too late?  I'm leaning towards Molly too but Tom is also bugging me because of the passport stuff. But if everyone else has exhausted all avenues of discussion, then I can finish up I guess. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2013 02:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 05:57 |
|
|
Well, we sure got our asses kicked. I don't know if I like the solution, though. We were told that nobody could have made it down the cliff, weren't we? The double footprint trick was clever as poo poo, though. Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Oct 2, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2013 03:02
|
|