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Oxxidation posted:Be gentle with him, it's either this or he leans out his window and screams at the moon until the neighbors complain.
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May 30, 2013 21:05
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Consider that my advice may harm his writing? Sure, but I think that it's not, hence why I gave it. Your advice boils down to "stop writing until you think you're ready" and my advice is "hey, why don't you write and we can help point you out where you're going wrong." People learn by doing, not by reading about doing. You can read all day and get a good idea of the steps, but give me a person I can train for a few weeks and I'll take them over a person who has read a bunch of books about doing it when it comes down to the wire. I'm trying to help him with the things I have learned from other writers. Also yelling "you suck poo poo gently caress you" works when the other person hasn't listened to the nice suggestions.
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May 30, 2013 22:01
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So the thing is, none of us really actually care if anyone else here gets to be a great published writer or whatever. Even in this thread, we're all more concerned with being right than making authors. The reason I say write whatever the gently caress you want and as much of it as you want is because, in this forum in particular, over enough time you'll get a lot of critiques. More feedback is good. Some of it will be poo poo; I'd advise you learn to ignore mean things on the internet and focus on the stuff that seems like cohesive feedback. You write a lot so that you have a lot of feedback to sift through and look for paterns in. You write whatever the gently caress you want because you want people to critique your most sincere effort, not some bullshit you tailored to appeal to Thunderdome/CC/whoever. Be loving honest with us and yourself. So, for example, if you really really wanna write about 50 foot zombie Ant-o-saurus Rex, Magnificent7, you should. Because if that's what drives you and makes you excited to write, that's where we're going to see at your best, whatever that may be, and so we'll be able to give more relevant feedback. There's a case to be made for writing out of your comfort zone, too. When I got assigned an alternate history prompt, I promptly crapped my pants and dove into wikipedia for 3 days. And the resulting effort wasn't super great or anything, but I could feel my brain muscles working, more subconscious things clicking into place. But really, no one cares. Either you'll write or you won't. The universe will keep going if you(any of us) never write another word of fiction.
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May 30, 2013 23:36
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magnificent7 posted:I finished "On Writing" years ago, and started it again, and finished it again. While I was reading that one, I've had loads of other books recommended. Each came with "you absolutely must read this one". I think before I buy another book on writing, I'll write more, and then read another of the books I'm trying to finish. Are you going to send it to me too?
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May 31, 2013 00:16
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sebmojo posted:Are you going to send it to me too? And thanks. I appreciate it.
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May 31, 2013 00:30
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magnificent7 posted:Jesus Christ man. Ease up. It's telling that an eight paragraph rant by crabrock telling you: quote:If this is how you achieved success in your other career, then other people probably hate you...just realize that you suck, your ideas suck, your prose sucks, everything about your writing sucks. ...was less upsetting to you than what I wrote. Of course, that's because he gave you the advice you wanted to hear: write more, more thunderdome! and I told you that you needed to take a step back and do the more boring fundamentals. Bummer, huh?  crabrock posted:You can read all day and get a good idea of the steps, but give me a person I can train for a few weeks and I'll take them over a person who has read a bunch of books about doing it when it comes down to the wire. Interesting. I'll certainly look forward to seeing how Mag7 improves under your guidance!
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May 31, 2013 02:06
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Why are you taking this so personally. Just like you shouldn't treat your writings as your babies, you shouldn't treat advice you have given that way too.
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May 31, 2013 02:25
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The "advice" i was giving in that rant was take your head out your butt and let people help you. Maybe it's not helpful; maybe the advice we give him will turn him into a horribler writer. Guess we'll see.
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May 31, 2013 02:38
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Chillmatic posted:I think Thunderdome is a great idea to get feedback from outside the (incredibly) harmful echo chamber of friends and family, but a significant amount of the feedback I've seen there is long on vitriol and short on specifics. Chillmatic posted:God, how long did it take for you to become worth a poo poo as a musician? Did you "just play" all the time until you became awesome? Or, perhaps, did a few people along the way show you what you needed to know and give you the tools you needed to be successful? Maybe you did some research into the craft of music? Chillmatic posted:Interesting. I'll certainly look forward to seeing how Mag7 improves under your guidance! On another note I just want to point out you are currently guilty of what you are accusing other people of (as emphasized in bold above in your first quote), so you might want to  and be less insulting to mag7 and crabrock.
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May 31, 2013 03:09
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"[b posted:Totally Not Chill -[/b]matic" post="415965102"] Broski, lemme just put the kibosh on this right here. What you're saying is: A person will improve at playing guitar by reading books and listening to pros. My coked out highschool friends who keep sticking godawful NECRO DESTROYERS posters all over my lovely suburb would like to disagree. Actually, they wouldn't, but I'll disagree for them. The only thing to improve your craft is practice. You don't become a luthier by watching your dad work. Your judgement of mag7's stories as getting "progressively worse" are in fact subjective. I'll give you a moment to gather yourself. Deep breaths, bro. His latest piece was bad, yeah, but it was readable. Grammatically okay, things happened, there was a little baby story arc. We've had way, way worse. The only way to get better is to practice. Just keep writing. Yeah, it's going to suck, but how the gently caress are you going to develop a voice of your own if you don't write?. What you're suggesting is that mag7 steal someone's swag, as is the going phrase, and then flaunt it as his own.
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May 31, 2013 03:15
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It's not like progressively lower ratings in Thunderdome necessarily indicate your quality's deteriorating, anyway. Judges always rotate and some prompts are nastier than others. Which is why I only participate when I'm interested in the prompt. Swaaaag
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May 31, 2013 03:18
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I just wanna let you guys know that all questions I'm posing are so serious that they necessitate a period. edit: Y'all wanna write? The only things you need are a stack of fiction and The Elements of Style. autism ZX spectrum fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 03:20
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Thanks to everybody for your input. I'm working on it. I finished my thing, sent it off to two goons, I'm going to leave it alone and go back and rewrite my other stories using the crits I got.
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May 31, 2013 03:32
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Nubile Hillock posted:Your judgement of mag7's stories as getting "progressively worse" are in fact subjective. I'll give you a moment to gather yourself. Deep breaths, bro. Oxxidation posted:It's not like progressively lower ratings in Thunderdome necessarily indicate your quality's deteriorating, anyway. Judges always rotate and some prompts are nastier than others. He said, in his own words, that his writing was getting worse. That was not something I came up with, promise. This is a public forum; people post that they're having problems, I respond. Unneeded advice is easy to ignore. quote:Yeah, it's going to suck, but how the gently caress are you going to develop a voice of your own if you don't write?. I'm not sure if you guys are intentionally ignoring what i'm saying, but I didn't say this and you aren't getting much done by refusing to read the actual words that I wrote. Mag7 initially said he wasn't ready for Thunderdome. I believe he was correct about that. Someone in their first month of playing guitar would not be ready for an open-mic at a cafe. (which is more or less what Thunderdome is) They'd need a few lessons, first. Sure, practice is a big part of that. Huge, even. But there's working harder by developing bad habits and writing badly, or there's working smarter which involves learning just a few basics that will then enable you to get much better, much faster. I know a guy who is a decent drummer, but it took him 15 years to get good because he refused to do anything other than just bang on the drums in his garage with his buddies. With a few lessons and guidance he could have been decent in five years and amazing after 15. But everybody has to find their own path; no argument here on that. If someone really prefers to do things that way, it's hard to argue with that! (except when they complain about not being where they want to be) But when the quality of a given person's writing/output indicates that they should work, for just a little while, on the fundamentals--and they're asking for help--I'm going to suggest they do so every time. I'm uncertain why that's so unfair or offensive but I'll just continue to point out that the people griping the loudest about this are also those who appear to be struggling the most to produce readable work. quote:You don't become a luthier by watching your dad work. No, but you'd sure learn a lot more, break fewer guitars, and get better, faster, if you did take just a little bit of time and allowed yourself to learn some of the fundamentals before diving right in and expecting any sort of results. People disagree with this opinion and hey, I get it. It's understandable. Hopefully it's also understandable that an experienced writer may get frustrated when inexperienced writers voice complaints/frustrations about how terrible they are, and yet refuse to do anything to improve--except what they've already been doing. Which, just maybe, is part of the reason they're struggling in the first place. magnificent7 posted:Thanks to everybody for your input. I'm working on it. I finished my thing, sent it off to two goons, I'm going to leave it alone and go back and rewrite my other stories using the crits I got. I genuinely hope you find the success you're looking for. Chillmatic fucked around with this message at 04:11 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 03:52
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Goddamn, you're boring.
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May 31, 2013 03:59
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Chillmatic posted:...which involves learning just a few basics that will then enable you to get much better, much faster. 
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May 31, 2013 03:59
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The music analogy doesn't work. In writing, it is what it is. There's no hidden technique behind the words on page: everything is laid bare. Therefore if you can read critically you should be able to analyse pieces of writing to see what works and what doesn't and try to imitate it in your own writing. Then you analyse your own writing critically and see what works and what doesn't. By repeating that process (i.e. reading a lot, writing a lot) you WILL get better. That isn't true for music. If you're putting your fingers in the wrong place, it doesn't matter how much music you listen to, you're not gonna get better at guitar. That's why guitar teachers get paid £10+ for a half-hour lesson and writing teachers don't really exist - at least not in the same way. I don't see how you can learn 'bad habits' by writing unguided the same way you can learning an instrument unguided like you seem to imply. Yeah, when you're learning guitar, if you're putting your fingers in the wrong place it'll become a problem down the line when you move onto more complex stuff. You'll develop a bad habit you'll have to relearn how you play the instrument almost from scratch if you want to progress. There is no equivalent to that in writing. There are no bad habits to learn, as far as I can see. By reading a lot and writing a lot and evaluating it critically, an inexperienced writer will improve. The only exception I can think of is if for some reason they have really weird taste and 'improve' towards an ideal that no one else will ever get, but since most writers are inspired by previously published and popular works I doubt that happens very often.
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May 31, 2013 04:06
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Chillmatic posted:He said, in his own words, that his writing was getting worse. That was not something I came up with, promise. This is a public forum; people post that they're having problems, I respond. Unneeded advice is easy to ignore. Well, maybe not so much in your case, since the sheer amount of noise you make needs a couple of full scrolls to get past no matter how irrelevant the opinion. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 04:54 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 04:32
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Chillmatic posted:Mag7 initially said he wasn't ready for Thunderdome. I believe he was correct about that. Someone in their first month of playing guitar would not be ready for an open-mic at a cafe. (which is more or less what Thunderdome is) They'd need a few lessons, first. Sure, practice is a big part of that. Huge, even. As a musician and a writer  I'd compare Tdome to practice. Actually.Admittedly it's practice with a bunch of people pointing out your mistakes and telling you you're stupid, but that's just a test of character. If they're right, it's worth hearing, and if they're wrong, how cares what they say?
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May 31, 2013 04:50
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Chillmatic posted:...the people griping the loudest about this are also those who appear to be struggling the most to produce readable work. [citation needed] I don't know why you're taking this so personally. No one's actively disagreeing with what you're trying to say (well, most of it, anyway), but it's getting lost in your defensiveness over Your Advice On The Internet and strawman generalizations. Take a step back. You do this with every argument you make and it's extremely off-putting even when some of us would otherwise agree with you, but I digress. It's not an either/or matter. Yes, you learn a fair amount from how-to books, and yes, writing in a vacuum can ingrain bad habits. Just look at the Dominic Deegan mock thread: A man who's been working on his fantasy webcomic for ten years, and both his writing and art got progressively worse the longer it went on because he never listened to criticism and was incapable of thinking critically about his own work. He was so blinded to storytelling convention that, among other things, goon-made edits swapping the heroes and villains made more sense than the original story - and this is a man who has panels at conventions on how to write memorable heroes and villains, with apparently decent advice gleaned from other sources but never applied to himself. Don't be that guy. No one here who's saying to keep writing, is saying to do so in a vacuum. Keep writing, get feedback to identify your weaknesses, take the advice to heart, read up on it if need be, apply it, write more with the new advice in mind, repeat. And learn critical reading skills from reading other fiction, but I covered that in my last post. Thunderdome is harsh but (...usually) fair. If you don't want the competition aspect, there's the Fiction Farm. Either way: You need to learn the basics, but you also need practice and feedback. No one improves by writing in a vacuum or by reading every how-to book they come across without taking the time to apply it. magnificent7, good on you for accepting the offers; I really hope it helps. When you're done with this week, or whenever you feel up to it, maybe you could try critiquing some pieces in the Fiction Farm, or even other 'Domers? It can help to look at others' work to notice things you won't see in your own.
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May 31, 2013 04:57
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Why are you taking this so personally. Just like you shouldn't treat your writings as your babies, you shouldn't treat advice you have given that way too. He does this. A lot. And people bothering to argue with he who must be right about everything, even if they're agreeing with him but not 100%, has caused more than one derail. Shut the gently caress up about it, everyone. I know it's been a page since this post, but this cannot go unaddressed: magnificent7 posted:Does every short story have to be about human nature?  Every story is about human nature. That is what makes it a story. If you're just putting ideas on the page and not making a human connection with them, then it is not a story, hence why people aren't interested in reading it.
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May 31, 2013 05:03
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Please christ. Anyone. Someone. Come in here and start asking stupider questions than mine. I've really enjoyed the lively chat but holy gently caress.
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May 31, 2013 05:06
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Chillmatic, these are good words. You get really worked up, then you act like an rear end in a top hat. Stop with the defensive tone, stop with the strawmen. If you actually paid attention to people's posts, you'd realise they agree with you on basically everything. quote:No one here who's saying to keep writing, is saying to do so in a vacuum. Keep writing, get feedback to identify your weaknesses, take the advice to heart, read up on it if need be, apply it, write more with the new advice in mind, repeat. And learn critical reading skills from reading other fiction, but I covered that in my last post  and careful technique, it's people saying that you should write, then use people's comments on that writing to help you improve. It's not hammering away on the drums with your buddies, it's hammering away with some snarky strangers who give pointed-but-valuable advice.I agree with you man: it's important find a teacher and get them to help you correct your mistakes. The issue is, you can swing round a writing teacher's house for $20 on a Tuesday, so this is what you do. Not Thunderdome necessarily: I mean, I post there and it pisses me off how much it's pushed in CC sometimes, but a place like it- a place where people will be honest with you about your mistakes. magnificent7 posted:Please christ. Anyone. Someone. Come in here and start asking stupider questions than mine. I've really enjoyed the lively chat but holy gently caress.
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May 31, 2013 05:08
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So, let's take a different route. Any thoughts on writing to fit the current mode in fiction vs. developing a unique style (for better or worse) vs. writing a specific way that's formed by and reflected in each piece? For instance, do you use modern prose like a bestseller might, or let the tone and setting inform the language you use? As an example, someone once paraphrased the first few lines of A Christmas Carol for their own story (even though it had nothing to do with that story), either because they liked the style or thought it was clever, or whatever. They got hammered for not having 'correct' grammar and having a cheap way to start a story, but no one commented on it being Dickens. What does that say?
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May 31, 2013 05:09
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SaviourX posted:So, let's take a different route. . The word my poetry teacher kept throwing around was 'performative', which went that it was showy for the sake of being showy; to show the reader how very clever the poet is without actually adding anything.If it's a particularly strong affect (I've just finished In the Name of the Wind and gently caress that bit in bumpkin speak), it'll knock the reader out of the story, because they have to stop and translate every so often. Keep it comprehensible. So, my rules for writing with an affect 1) have a reason 2) don't overdo it
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May 31, 2013 05:20
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What I've gathered from my reading about writing, and this may be stupid and unfair but seems to hold true, is that once you've published a few stories with correct grammar and sentence structure, you are free to start playing with that structure. Basically, once you've shown you CAN do something, you don't necessarily have to. I think this is mostly because people don't want to read some accidents by a moron and consider them genius, but if you know the person is doing it on purpose then you don't feel bad.
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May 31, 2013 05:30
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SaviourX posted:So, let's take a different route. I think this is kind of misleading, as there isn't really a single modern prose. I get what you're saying, though. I know it's a cop out, but write for your audience. If you think you're going to be targeting the kind of people that buy books at the airport - write like that. If you're writing for a fiction contest on the internet, just mash some keys together. Most "unique" styles are reflective of an author's time and place. Clean modern prose is legible, but it's largely sterile. It tells a story but nothing more. A good author will get the nuances of everyday speech to come through in his work, without resorting to a complete rewrite of the language. Words should have a flow and a cadence and a sound that's pleasing to you, you shouldn't be over-reaching and using words you'd normally leave in the thesaurus. edit: As far as affects go, there are times and places. I'm not sure where I'd draw the line between "affect" and "writing", as when you're writing fiction you're necessarily adopting a manner of being that isn't yours. I mean, in period pieces it's pretty obvious what "affect" means, but in more modern writing? I guess all writing is adopting an affect, so just get good at it. autism ZX spectrum fucked around with this message at 05:50 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 05:46
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I want to be a writer but I hate books. What do?  Someday I would like to meet one of these people. Their minds must be... disconcerting, at the very least.
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May 31, 2013 05:57
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HaitianDivorce posted:
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May 31, 2013 06:06
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I've got a minor grammar question raised by a book I was reading this morning on the train. Is "waked" an acceptable past-perfect form of "wake" now? As in, "He had waked." I've always assumed the proper form was "He had woken," and even that seems terribly stodgy compared to simple perfect.
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May 31, 2013 09:49
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Chillmatic posted:Hopefully it's also understandable that an experienced writer may get frustrated when inexperienced writers voice complaints/frustrations about how terrible they are Gotta be honest dude, through all the long angry effortposts you make in this thread, I keep wondering if your own writing is worth a drat. I know due to my regdate of last year I'm a ~**~~noob~~**~ but I've never seen even a paragraph of fiction prose from you. Maybe you used to post your legit as gently caress pro experienced writer stories all over CC back in the good old days of prior to April 2012, but these days I haven't seen any actual product from you at all. It's kind of hard to take Fiction Writing Advice from you (and pay attention to your Discussion) when nobody knows if you're even any good at it in the first place.
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May 31, 2013 13:05
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Also you don't need to ever write anything in your life to know whether something you're reading is a thing you want to keep reading.
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May 31, 2013 13:14
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Martello posted:but these days I haven't seen any actual product from you at all. My agent and editor provide me with the feedback I need for my own work. Though I'll say that as little as two years ago, I could have really used Thunderdome feedback, when I had endless frustrations as to the efficacy--or profound lack thereof--of my writing. Believe me, I've put my time in with critique groups, and it was very much needed. I got torn down a lot and took the advice to heart. I had the same "my ideas are so greaaaaat" thing that all new writers have and having a whole room full of people fall asleep in response is sobering. I haven't meant for a second to imply that there is no point to getting that kind of feedback on one's work. Of course, while it was so often helpful, there can quickly become a hive mind where everyone either pats each other on the back, or else rips each other to shreds with absolutely no specifics or real suggestions given. I think that's where my own wariness/retardedness about the whole "just write more and let us destroy it" thing has come from. But you make a very good point re: not knowing the worthiness of my advice without seeing me write. So sure; I'll read through the Thunderdome thread and contribute a piece. Chillmatic fucked around with this message at 13:59 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 13:57
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Chillmatic posted:I haven't meant for a second to imply that there is no point to getting that kind of feedback on one's work. Of course, while it was so often helpful, there can quickly become a hive mind where everyone either pats each other on the back, or else rips each other to shreds with absolutely no specifics or real suggestions given. I think that's where my own wariness/retardedness about the whole "just write more and let us destroy it" thing has come from. I appreciate your input - I do. Even when it's harsh, your points make sense and I weigh them along with any other advice. But everytime you write a long post, I can't help but hear it in this voice:  Erogenous Beef posted:Is "waked" an acceptable past-perfect form of "wake" now? As in, "He had waked." I've always assumed the proper form was "He had woken," and even that seems terribly stodgy compared to simple perfect. A quick google and I found this. None of the examples include "had" in them.  http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/notorious/wake.htm magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 15:01
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magnificent7 posted:I appreciate your input - I do. Even when it's harsh, your points make sense and I weigh them along with any other advice. But everytime you write a long post, I can't help but hear it in this voice: "Let's rip this to shreds for the sake of ripping it shreds" is just as dangerous for a writer's growth as a hugbox: ideally, a good writing group points out both the things that don't work, and the things that do. There's nothing valuable to take from pure bile, any more than there's something to take from pure fluff.
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May 31, 2013 15:09
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magnificent7 posted:
I'm pretty sure it's not meant to be a character thing, given how many adverbs and purple phrases I had to slog through to find it. Actual phonecam shot from my Kindle:  Given that this is an actual, properly-published book from an actual publishing house and not some $0.99 selfpub thing, I had to ask.
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May 31, 2013 15:37
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The evolution of language ~in progress~~
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Jun 1, 2013 06:15
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I hate it so much that in language, if enough stupid people are wrong and loud about it for long enough, they eventually become right.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:10
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qntm posted:I hate it so much that in language, if enough stupid people are wrong and loud about it for long enough, they eventually become right. Yet every word you speak is a result of this process.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:44
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I actually love that process in theory, but it's hard to get use to. It's very elitist to say language has to be a certain way and stay that way and only certain people know how that is. But I'm against the language changing in ways that don't make sense, like idiots saying "i could care less."
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Jun 1, 2013 22:36
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