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TACD posted:I've posted this earlier in the thread but it bears a repeat: An index of fatal toxicity for drugs of misuse. Note Table 2, where death certificates on which cannabis is the only drug mentioned average 1.4 per year. (And 'mentioned' ≠ 'cause of death', but this study doesn't get into that level of detail.) In any case, whether or not the number of people killed just from the act of using cannabis is literally zero - I'm inclined to believe it is, but you can't prove a negative - you can see that it's ludicrously safe to use compared to everything else. "THC does not kill people from acute toxicity" and marijuana is "ludicrously safe to use compared to everything else" are not the same as "no one has ever died from weed."
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May 31, 2013 20:22
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echinopsis posted:
It's not really your business what my life ambitions are. I smoke weed every day because I like to smoke weed, not because it is an ambition. My ambition is to complete my doctorate, and I also smoke weed every day. I could easily create a nasty birds eye view description of whatever hobbies you have and it'd b stupid because what you do for fun is your business.
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May 31, 2013 20:26
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As far as we know, nobody has ever died simply from consuming marijuana. If you define "from weed" as simply ingesting weed then it is true that nobody has ever died from weed.
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May 31, 2013 20:27
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KernelSlanders posted:"THC does not kill people from acute toxicity" and marijuana is "ludicrously safe to use compared to everything else" are not the same as "no one has ever died from weed." Deaths related to ecstasy are rare enough that they make headlines. One would expect a confirmed 'weed-death' to make headlines too, but we've never seen one.
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May 31, 2013 20:35
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Marijuana is certainly less dangerous than LSD, ketamine, and ecstasy once you factor in vaporization and edibles. Ketamine is habit forming, ecstasy has been proven as a cause of death, and LSD can seriously upset your mental chemistry.
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May 31, 2013 20:46
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KernelSlanders posted:"THC does not kill people from acute toxicity" and marijuana is "ludicrously safe to use compared to everything else" are not the same as "no one has ever died from weed." These statements are essentially functionally identical. The 'harm' from mj as almost non-existent.
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May 31, 2013 20:50
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RichieWolk posted:You can't even be bothered to learn about drugs you legally dispense to others every day, why should anyone pay attention to your arguments about a drug you clearly have zero knowledge of? really? You make a poo poo load of assumptions. Of course I know about paracetamol and it's liver effects. I was honestly wondering if people were going to tell me something I didn't know about. quote:edit: nevermind, you're from new zealand. HAHAHhahahahahahaha  Murmur Twin posted:
Yeah. I used to heaps when I was around 18 and then off and on for the next ~10 years, not having done it for the last few years. quote:2. Why do you think people smoke weed? I don't know why some people do. I know for me at times it's been a compulsion though. For a long time I realised I didn't even enjoy it but if I got offered a half ounce I wouldn't have said no, and then I would end up getting high every evening for a month or so even though I wasn't really enjoying it and waking up every morning thinking that it had made me stay up too late and eat too much poo poo. I know this isn't weed "fault", it's simply my terrible self control etc. But regardless for me personally cannabis became a net negative in my life. I know that for me personally having it easily available as a recreational substance wouldn't be in my personal interest. But read me loud and clear that my experience with it doesn't colour my attitude towards regulation, I agree it's the best move Rigged Death Trap posted:There shouldn't be any denied treatments This isn't an attack, but this is an unreasonable situation at times. Is it worth doing a a valve replacement on a frail 98 year old? My wife works in intensive care and almost every shift she see patients being given very expensive invasive procedures, even if the prognosis is dire, simply because the treatment exists hence it is immoral to not give it. The hospital just went 3 million over it's nursing budget, and if history is a lesson, they might just lay off nursing staff, reducing care, all while continuing to pour hundreds of thousands of dollars into end-of-life care (not palliative) in old very sick patients. The medical establishment is generally poor at dealing with dire/futile situations gracefully and humanely Pyroxene Stigma posted:Marijuana is certainly less dangerous than LSD, ketamine, and ecstasy once you factor in vaporization and edibles. Ketamine is habit forming, ecstasy has been proven as a cause of death, and LSD can seriously upset your mental chemistry. How do you feel about psilocybin mushrooms? Not sure if anyone has died from over consumption of them echinopsis fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 21:07
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echinopsis posted:really? You make a poo poo load of assumptions. Of course I know about paracetamol and it's liver effects. I was honestly wondering if people were going to tell me something I didn't know about. You're the one who brought up your ignorance about the dangers of tylenol. In the USA you can buy a bottle of 500 tablets OTC with no ID or anything, and if a stupid teenager takes 6 extra strength pills that's like 3,000 mg. It's an actual serious problem, as you should know being in the medical business, and unlike the bullshit marijuana risks you've been spouting, it actually does kill people in the US. quote:When you come into the thread about marijuana legalization in the US and start spouting idiotic ignorant bullshit, it'd be nice if you had just a teensy bit of experience dealing with the USA's systems. As wonderful as your poo poo in the lower hemisphere may be, there are glaring differences between the US and NZ which would prevent most (if not all) of your suggestions from being taken seriously (like the fact that New Zealand is the size of Nevada and has the same population as Kentucky). I think it's pretty drat funny that you don't realize this makes a difference. 
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May 31, 2013 21:40
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RichieWolk posted:You're the one who brought up your ignorance about the dangers of tylenol. quote:USA 
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May 31, 2013 21:57
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echinopsis posted:How do you feel about psilocybin mushrooms? Not sure if anyone has died from over consumption of them I see them similar to LSD: a mental health issue, not a criminal justice one. Fun for most, dangerous for few.
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May 31, 2013 22:00
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This is it, we are now entering the "dot bong" era: ex Microsoft exec announces plan for national brand marijuana. Imported from Mexico naturally.
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May 31, 2013 22:07
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:I see them similar to LSD: a mental health issue, not a criminal justice one. Fun for most, dangerous for few. But maybe the mental health effects are not particularly bad except in the predisposed and mentally unstable. Also "fun"? Maybe, but look at all the John Hopkins studies into using it in palliative care, addictions and other therapeutic ways. Also yeah, fun!
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May 31, 2013 22:08
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Limastock posted:This is it, we are now entering the "dot bong" era: 40% of the worldwide marijuana market? Is this guy
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May 31, 2013 22:11
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echinopsis posted:This isn't an attack, but this is an unreasonable situation at times. Is it worth doing a a valve replacement on a frail 98 year old? My wife works in intensive care and almost every shift she see patients being given very expensive invasive procedures, even if the prognosis is dire, simply because the treatment exists hence it is immoral to not give it. The hospital just went 3 million over it's nursing budget, and if history is a lesson, they might just lay off nursing staff, reducing care, all while continuing to pour hundreds of thousands of dollars into end-of-life care (not palliative) in old very sick patients. The medical establishment is generally poor at dealing with dire/futile situations gracefully and humanely I do actually agree with you about end of life care, It's just that I wasn't prepared to get in on it since it's the marijuana thread. I was speaking more on the lines of general healthcare, not in more extreme cases like the one you presented where the patient may not have that long to live either way. quote:How do you feel about psilocybin mushrooms? Not sure if anyone has died from over consumption of them Psilocybin is also one of those things that has an indeterminate lethal dose. No evidence currently exists that suggests anyone has died from a biological consequence of using Psilocybin. It's got some of the highest safety profiles of any psychedlic. Pyroxene Stigma posted:Marijuana is certainly less dangerous than LSD, ketamine, and ecstasy once you factor in vaporization and edibles. Ketamine is habit forming, ecstasy has been proven as a cause of death, and LSD can seriously upset your mental chemistry. I want to make an aside : MDMA is also one of those things that are safe by them selves. Ecstasy is increasingly used as a catchall street term for any feel good pills. They can contain anything from Piperazines to cathinones to, rarely, MDMA analogues. Those, and mixing MDMA with other drugs (even alcohol), are where most deaths come from, and not to ignore physical causes such as water intoxication, dehydration or causes that stem from hyperthermia (aka: way too much vigorous movement). LSD is also incredibly safe. The lethal dose has never been accurately measured but it is believed that it dwarfs the active dose by multiple factors of 10. Now for that last part. It's a bit false to claim that there is a normal state of brain chemistry. There are certain thresholds that have to be abided by, yes, but your brain chemistry is always fluctuating depending on mood, hunger and a myriad other things. It's how it works. Furthermore, it's disingenuous to claim that LSD upsets your brain more than marijuana, they both exhibit strong binding to multiple key receptors within the brain
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May 31, 2013 22:13
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echinopsis posted:But maybe the mental health effects are not particularly bad except in the predisposed and mentally unstable. Also "fun"? Maybe, but look at all the John Hopkins studies into using it in palliative care, addictions and other therapeutic ways. Also yeah, fun! A lot of maybes in that post. I definitely think we need decriminalization or legalization to free up scientific study before any actual lines are drawn.
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May 31, 2013 22:14
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Rigged Death Trap posted:
I don't think the evidence on this is all that clear. There's been plenty of bad science suggesting it's dangerous, but there's also been very little rigorous human testing that proves it doesn't cause any damage.
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May 31, 2013 22:16
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echinopsis posted:Also "fun"? Maybe, but look at all the John Hopkins studies into using it in palliative care, addictions and other therapeutic ways. Also yeah, fun!  time' then we'd probably be prescribing them for all sorts of purposes. Wouldn't it be great if they were all legal so we could enjoy them recreationally and medically?
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May 31, 2013 22:24
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We ignore all the myriad side effects of alcohol because "it's fun!" As a recovering alcoholic, I honestly take offense to the posts arguing other drugs should be illegal because they have mild effects that might one day be an issue. Take a hard look at what the US has already legalized and come up with a solid case that says x drug has worse effects. You might be surprised to find that few fit that bill.
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May 31, 2013 22:54
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Limastock posted:This is it, we are now entering the "dot bong" era: Why the gently caress would you import it from Mexico to WA? One step forward, two steps back...
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May 31, 2013 22:56
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Rigged Death Trap posted:LSD is also incredibly safe. The lethal dose has never been accurately measured but it is believed that it dwarfs the active dose by multiple factors of 10. People have OD'd on LSD before. Usually because it was in a powder form, they thought it was cocaine, and they snorted it. Fortunately someone rushed them to a hospital within a quarter hour and they all survived. LSD does have lethal doses and they are "high" compared to responsible doses, but the responsible doses are so miniscule that its actually not as hard as you are making it out to be. Remember LSD is measured out in fractions of milligrams, 300 milligrams of LSD will kill an elephant. So orders of magnitude above a regular dose for sure, but not exactly a large amount.
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Jun 1, 2013 00:46
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Red_Mage posted:Remember LSD is measured out in fractions of milligrams, 300 milligrams of LSD will kill an elephant. So orders of magnitude above a regular dose for sure, but not exactly a large amount. Until you realize LSD doses are measured in micrograms. So yeah, a large amount.
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Jun 1, 2013 00:52
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Delta-Wye posted:Why the gently caress would you import it from Mexico to WA? One step forward, two steps back... He's not saying that. He's saying that currently, there's enough demand in America that currently we import it from Mexico from drug cartels. The Mexican president is saying that if we supply our own weed and fill that demand domestically and legally, that the drug cartels won't make money by exporting it to us anymore.
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Jun 1, 2013 00:53
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Iunnrais posted:He's not saying that. He's saying that currently, there's enough demand in America that currently we import it from Mexico from drug cartels. The Mexican president is saying that if we supply our own weed and fill that demand domestically and legally, that the drug cartels won't make money by exporting it to us anymore. quote:Shively plans to legally import high-quality weed for his business from Mexico. 
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Jun 1, 2013 00:58
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Iunnrais posted:He's not saying that. He's saying that currently, there's enough demand in America that currently we import it from Mexico from drug cartels. The Mexican president is saying that if we supply our own weed and fill that demand domestically and legally, that the drug cartels won't make money by exporting it to us anymore. Are you talking about my link? Because the story i posted clearly says he (former Microsoft exec) is looking to set up a 10 million dollar operation importing weed from Mexico to America.
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Jun 1, 2013 01:19
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Red_Mage posted:People have OD'd on LSD before. Usually because it was in a powder form, they thought it was cocaine, and they snorted it. Fortunately someone rushed them to a hospital within a quarter hour and they all survived. LSD does have lethal doses and they are "high" compared to responsible doses, but the responsible doses are so miniscule that its actually not as hard as you are making it out to be. LSD generally isn't sold in pure crystalline form at street level, and it would cost thousands of dollars to buy enough to guarantee an overdose. It's also rare enough now that there's likely only a handful of people in the United States that would have access to that much LSD, and it would mostly be the manufacturers and top level distributors. Saying it's measured in "fractions of milligrams" is also somewhat misleading when that fraction is 1/1000 of a milligram, and the average dose sold nowadays is only about 50 micrograms. Also the LD50 for LSD in elephants is 0.1mg/kg, versus 5mg/km for monkeys and 46mg/km for mice. It's extremely misleading to cite the elephant death as if it's representative of the toxicity of LSD. TACD posted:I'm not sure if you're doubting that psychedelics are fun or just denigrating the concept of recreational drug use generally, but why is 'fun' not a quality that we should value? As you said, psychedelics have been found to have multiple therapeutic uses - if the side-effects were merely nausea, dizziness or hair loss instead of 'a pretty time' then we'd probably be prescribing them for all sorts of purposes. Wouldn't it be great if they were all legal so we could enjoy them recreationally and medically? This is only anecdotal, but a few years ago I was suffering from fairly frequent cluster headaches. My doctor prescribed me sumatriptan, an analogue of DMT. It soothed the headache, but also caused serotonin sickness so bad that I would have severe muscle cramps, nausea, vertigo, lockjaw, heavy fatigue, and both visual and auditory hallucinations. I've tried several different tryptamines, and never felt serotonin sickness anything like this from any of the others. The serotonin sickness was so bad that it was barely preferable to the headaches themselves, which were so painful I cannot even begin to describe what it felt like. I told my doctor about the serotonin sickness but he refused to prescribe me a different medication for the headaches, just saying that unless I ended up in the ER from it the side effects were acceptable. After reading a summary of a study that showed that psilocybin was supposedly effective in treating cluster headaches, I tried self-medicating with shrooms instead. I would take a fraction of what people take for recreational usage, and it consistently cleared up the headache within 45 minutes with no side effects, positive or negative, from the psilocybin. When I told my doctor about the study and that psilocybin had been effective for me, he spent 10 minutes lecturing me about the dangers of self-medication, to which I could only point out that he had refused to let me try other legal medications that would probably have less negative side effects than the sumatriptan. Preem Palver fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jun 1, 2013 |
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Jun 1, 2013 01:46
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Limastock posted:Are you talking about my link? Because the story i posted clearly says he (former Microsoft exec) is looking to set up a 10 million dollar operation importing weed from Mexico to America. I think your link has to be wrong or this guy has way more money then brains. You can grow and sell in Washington and Colorado, but you can't cross state lines much less international lines. Maybe in the undefined future they plan on offering Mexican pot once it's legal? Or I guess they're blowing $10 million because their lawyers are poo poo.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:12
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I think he's talking long term more or less and he's definitely operating under the assumption that this thing is going to go national fairly soon once the other states see all the new revenue stream. It's a big gamble because he's totally relying on federal and international law to change but hey, ground floor right? Have we heard anything from the federal govt about withholding federal funds and or suing CO/WA yet? Or are they still being tight lipped about how they will react?
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Jun 1, 2013 03:27
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Xandu posted:I don't think the evidence on this is all that clear. There's been plenty of bad science suggesting it's dangerous, but there's also been very little rigorous human testing that proves it doesn't cause any damage. Obviously this doesn't "prove it doesn't cause any damage," but as far as rigorous human testing, MDMA has been in phase 2 clinical trials for a while now (two studies: PTSD, and anxiety secondary to terminal illness). I believe this is the only instance of FDA clinical trials ever funded by a non-profit organization. So at least some rigorous human testing is underway.
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Jun 1, 2013 17:01
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This thread was much more interesting when it was about the actual experiences of Colorado and Washington states rather than the same drug debate that has been done 1,000 times before. It's the 'what now' which is ground breaking here and the smoothness with which it seems to be progressing is incredible.
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Jun 1, 2013 17:50
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Sri.Theo posted:This thread was much more interesting when it was about the actual experiences of Colorado and Washington states rather than the same drug debate that has been done 1,000 times before. For the actual people, it's currently in a pseudo-legal state where you won't be arrested for possession but still have to find a dealer or have a medical card to purchase. Nothing new will happen until legislation is drafted and state-run stores open.
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Jun 1, 2013 18:08
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Small time operations are currently doing end-runs around the whole "green card" thing here in Washington and getting into production and distribution of candies and creams and such for medicinal purposes.
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Jun 1, 2013 19:13
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Jago posted:Small time operations are currently doing end-runs around the whole "green card" thing here in Washington and getting into production and distribution of candies and creams and such for medicinal purposes. Also, Pyroxene Stigma, Washington will only have private run businesses, no state run store here, same with Colorado I am sure.
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Jun 1, 2013 20:11
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echinopsis posted:I was trying to see if people were going to claim there was some particular danger with it when taking as directed. I'm not ignorant to the dangers of it when used excessively or in acute high doses. Hell It is worth noting that the US views Acetaminophen as a lot more safe than your country (the max bottle dose here is 4 grams versus the 2.4 grams in most of the rest of the world). Combined with our lovely doctors just suggesting it like it was candy (I have been told by my GP to take up to 10 grams a day)
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Jun 1, 2013 20:24
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EBT posted:It is worth noting that the US views Acetaminophen as a lot more safe than your country (the max bottle dose here is 4 grams versus the 2.4 grams in most of the rest of the world). Combined with our lovely doctors just suggesting it like it was candy (I have been told by my GP to take up to 10 grams a day) Get a new GP holy poo poo.
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Jun 1, 2013 20:35
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This was the lovely rear end GP I saw in NC that told me transition was creepy sounding, I gave his whole practice the heave ho years ago.
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Jun 1, 2013 20:44
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It is also worth noting that Tylenol overdose is extremely brutal and agonizing for the patient. Anyway you all should have pretty much stopped quoting that dude a page ago when he oh so subtly mentioned he and his wife were in the medical field and had no idea you could even OD on Tylenol. Quick, someone point out the amount of deaths caused by Caffeine every year and maybe his head will explode.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:32
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Limastock posted:Anyway you all should have pretty much stopped quoting that dude a page ago when he oh so subtly mentioned he and his wife were in the medical field and had no idea you could even OD on Tylenol. This didn't happen.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:34
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Install Gentoo posted:This didn't happen. Yeah except that it did: echinopsis posted:Fuckin' tell me about it. I work in the health industry, echinopsis posted:Interesting. Working in the medical field makes me cynical towards UHC simply because echinopsis posted:Not as a rebuttal, but can you elaborate on the dangers of acetaminophen? I sell/dispense it to people every day and I want to know what I should be warning them about You have no business working in the medical field in any capacity if you do not know the dangers of acetaminophen and literally dispense it to people daily.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:42
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Limastock posted:Yeah except that it did: You didn't pay attention to what he actually said.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:46
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Install Gentoo posted:You didn't pay attention to what he actually said. Really? How far do you want to go with this? eSports Chaebol posted:If a total cost is negative we call it a "benefit". We don't tax caffeine and use the money to pay for treatment of caffeine-related illnesses even though caffeine has negative health effects because we don't consider keeping caffeine legal to have a significant cost. The only reason marijuana is different is because it is illegal right now. It is precisely because legal marijuana will be a more ready alternative not only to alcohol, but to other dangerous drugs such as acetaminophen and aspirin and ibuprofen that legalization is good from a health perspective. echinopsis posted:Not as a rebuttal, but can you elaborate on the dangers of acetaminophen? I sell/dispense it to people every day and I want to know what I should be warning them about That is the actual exchange copy/pasted right there. How am I not paying attention to what he ACTUALLY said? I didnt misquote him and I didnt take anything out of context. He quoted the above eSports post and replied with that quote above.
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Jun 1, 2013 21:49
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