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V for Vegas posted:EUIV - China Its so strange that China needs to "Westernize" to keep par with Europe when not only was China more advanced but also that pretty much the entire European intelligentsia felt that Europe should "Sino-ize" and follow the example of the Chinese for the entirety of EU's timeframe.
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May 31, 2013 17:54
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V for Vegas posted:EUIV - China quote:the Asian Dynasties expansion for Europa Universalis III ...did Johan confuse his own game with Age of Empires III? That's pretty funny.
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May 31, 2013 17:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:Its so strange that China needs to "Westernize" to keep par with Europe when not only was China more advanced but also that pretty much the entire European intelligentsia felt that Europe should "Sino-ize" and follow the example of the Chinese for the entirety of EU's timeframe. EU's biggest ahistoricity is that it makes Europe way, way stronger than it was historically. Note that Native Americans barely register as speedbumps in EU's colonization game, compared to their historical often rather successful resistance into the 19th Century, including the Arauco War which lasted, mind-bendingly, over 300 years and included the natives being on the winning side of the Chilean War of Independence (and then finally getting murdered to hell by the Chileans).
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May 31, 2013 18:12
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ExtraNoise posted:I just got into Victoria 2 in a big way since it went on sale (though I still don't have HoD) and I'm having a lot of fun playing as Texas and trying to maintain my independence. Cheat and look up stuff like Wikipedia's Category: 1870s songs if you want period-specific stuff, I'd suggest. Old-Time Religion was made in 1873, then there's stuff like The Battle Hymn of the Republic and The Bonnie Blue Flag from 1861/2. The Man Who Broke The Bank At Monte Carlo and My Old Dutch, although British songs written in 1892, sounds like it could fit in. 'The Cat Came Back' was also originally written in 1893 with a slightly more profane title, but the only recordings I can lazily find on Youtube are either taken from kid's albums or this pretty nice cartoon from '88. Another classic cartoon referenced another classic 19th century song with Hello! Ma Baby. e: Here's a 1924 recording of The Cat Came Back. Fair warning! It uses the original lyrics which contain some coarse racial terminology. Ofaloaf fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 18:15
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Fister Roboto posted:You should be able to use a conquest CB on Johore or any other unciv with less than 5 states, unless NMM changes that. But the RP bonus you get comes from any territory you take, whether via Acquire State or Conquest. Nope, still primitive.
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May 31, 2013 18:24
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Tulip posted:EU's biggest ahistoricity is that it makes Europe way, way stronger than it was historically. Note that Native Americans barely register as speedbumps in EU's colonization game, compared to their historical often rather successful resistance into the 19th Century, including the Arauco War which lasted, mind-bendingly, over 300 years and included the natives being on the winning side of the Chilean War of Independence (and then finally getting murdered to hell by the Chileans). EU's confusion is that it backports the Europe of Victoria to EU. EU is actually a time period when Asia is dominant; Victoria is one when Euroamerica is dominant.
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May 31, 2013 18:57
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Raenir Salazar posted:Its so strange that China needs to "Westernize" to keep par with Europe when not only was China more advanced but also that pretty much the entire European intelligentsia felt that Europe should "Sino-ize" and follow the example of the Chinese for the entirety of EU's timeframe. I have never heard that anyone in Europe wanted to Sionize, much less most of the intelligentsia. Do you have any sources or places I could read more?
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May 31, 2013 19:03
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Drone posted:Nope, still primitive. Are they in a sphere, or a puppet? That's the other big thing that makes conquest CBs unavailable.
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May 31, 2013 19:08
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meatbag posted:I have never heard that anyone in Europe wanted to Sionize, much less most of the intelligentsia. Do you have any sources or places I could read more? It's mentioned in Adam Smith in Beijing. I believe Leibnitz, Voltaire, and Frederick the Great among other Enlightenment thinkers all said something along the lines of "Look how awesome China is."
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May 31, 2013 19:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:Its so strange that China needs to "Westernize" to keep par with Europe when not only was China more advanced but also that pretty much the entire European intelligentsia felt that Europe should "Sino-ize" and follow the example of the Chinese for the entirety of EU's timeframe. Nope. Europe's estimated GDP per capita had pretty decisively passed China's by 1500. The EU timeline is basically the period where Europe was pulling farther and farther away.
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May 31, 2013 19:23
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Tulip posted:EU's biggest ahistoricity is that it makes Europe way, way stronger than it was historically. Note that Native Americans barely register as speedbumps in EU's colonization game, compared to their historical often rather successful resistance into the 19th Century, including the Arauco War which lasted, mind-bendingly, over 300 years and included the natives being on the winning side of the Chilean War of Independence (and then finally getting murdered to hell by the Chileans). Because Europeans won, so they must make that predetermined. Even if its ultimately a sandbox that is no where near how things went. They must get this one thing right, for reasons.
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May 31, 2013 19:26
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meatbag posted:I have never heard that anyone in Europe wanted to Sionize, much less most of the intelligentsia. Do you have any sources or places I could read more? I have one from a class I took last year, though it's a paper from 1949 so I don't know how up to date it is with modern scholarship: Fan, T. C. "Chinese Fables and Anti-Walpole Journalism." The Review of English Studies, Vol. 25, No. 98 (Apr., 1949), pp. 141-151 T.C. Fan posted:The Bee was not uninterrupted in its course. It was suppressed after Number 3 for three weeks, and its title changed several times in its 118 weekly issues. Praise was lavished on an idealized commonwealth. In China, we are told, the gazettes, unlike the newspapers in Europe, are so strictly based on facts and truth that a deviation from them is a capital crime.4 In China, again, the people are never made miserable by the weakness or incapacity of their Emperor, for none but a man of parts and learning is ever suffered to mount the throne. Instead of being a despot, the Emperor accepts and even encourages loyal opposition: he answers all petitions presented to him and constantly gives an audience to the meanest subject in the Empire if he comes with an accusation of his mandarins and chief ministers.' This must have particularly interested Budgell, who had kneeled at Court in 1730 and had petitioned George II about 'the wrong and injustice done to him by Walpole'.2 The Bee printed a few other curious things from China-an earthquake, a royal wedding, kotow and van-fo, i.e. 'the Offering of Thousands of Felicities'3-and it might have printed more, had it not been 'forc'd to quit this mortal stage' in I735. Naturally it was an incredibly naive perspective on how Chinese government worked, but it's fairly telling that even in the 1700s British thinkers thought that China had a more enlightened political system than theirs.
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May 31, 2013 19:27
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Spiderfist Island posted:Naturally it was an incredibly naive perspective on how Chinese government worked, but it's fairly telling that even in the 1700s British thinkers thought that China had a more enlightened political system than theirs.
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May 31, 2013 19:39
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SickZip posted:Nope. Europe's estimated GDP per capita had pretty decisively passed China's by 1500. The EU timeline is basically the period where Europe was pulling farther and farther away. Um, what, no. The GDP per capita between China and Europe didn't really start to really diverge until the Industrial Revolution (and the mass production of cheap textiles in English mills), most certainly not during EU's timeframe.
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May 31, 2013 19:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:All I get from that is that people projected their wishes unto a faraway land, much like how some Americans project a completely skewed image of "socialist Scandinavia" due to being dissatisfied by their own government. It tells us nothing about the actual China, nor does it really support the idea of Europeans wanting to Sinosize. There's even evidence of the Chinese doing the same thing, there are Chinese records from the 1st century talking about an empire on the other side of the world where the people elected the best man among them to be king, who would happily step down without bitterness or anger if he failed to bring prosperity. Which is, ah, not quite how I'd describe the Roman Empire in the 1st century AD.
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May 31, 2013 19:54
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Arguably, emerging European proto-capitalism, with it's banking system, manufactories and urbanisation already lead to increased productivity in the EU era: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita Asia, and China, of course, had numbers.
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May 31, 2013 19:56
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Is it ever worth it to promote artisans in Victoria 2? Like for example if you were playing a nation that wasn't going to have access to factories anytime soon?
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May 31, 2013 20:01
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Fister Roboto posted:Are they in a sphere, or a puppet? That's the other big thing that makes conquest CBs unavailable. Was looking into it earlier, you only get the Protectorate CB for uncivs with more than 1 state (and less than 5) if you have Nationalism and Imperialism. Dunno if that's only for NNM or also vanilla though.
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May 31, 2013 20:09
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While there were some intellectuals who talked highly of Chinese bureaucracy, there was by no means any particularly strong pushes towards "Sinoizing."
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May 31, 2013 20:16
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Kersch posted:Is it ever worth it to promote artisans in Victoria 2? Like for example if you were playing a nation that wasn't going to have access to factories anytime soon? I've never done it, but I could see the use in it. I don't think their productivity ever quite adds up to much, but having a pool of Artisans who are at least getting by gives you somewhere to draw capitalists from.
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May 31, 2013 20:33
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Reveilled posted:There's even evidence of the Chinese doing the same thing, there are Chinese records from the 1st century talking about an empire on the other side of the world where the people elected the best man among them to be king, who would happily step down without bitterness or anger if he failed to bring prosperity. Also in the 6th century many Chinese talked about India as an enlightened utopia from which all great knowledge of spirit came from and uh that's a hell of a thing to say. Admittedly, this admiration was based on their comparative experiences of the preceding 300 years, where the Guptas had some amount of control of India and China looked like Fallout with swords. You can't look too closely at your heroes. Raenir Salazar posted:Um, what, no. The GDP per capita between China and Europe didn't really start to really diverge until the Industrial Revolution (and the mass production of cheap textiles in English mills), most certainly not during EU's timeframe. Yea mercantilist Europe wasn't that incredible of an economy. The British-Chinese trade relationship up until the 19th Century was extremely one-sided and really bad for Britain. The Opium War was fundamentally about the fact that the Chinese could trade the British to death but the British actually had a decent military (the Chinese military at that time was awful - The Opium War Through Chinese Eyes is a good set of primary source accounts that constitutes THE single greatest tragicomedy the world has ever seen). EU basically timewarps Europe about 200 years into the future in a lot of ways - like holy hell manufactories are basically just industrial factories, and free trade doctrines are way more effective in the game than they were historically.
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May 31, 2013 20:35
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CharlestheHammer posted:Because Europeans won, so they must make that predetermined. Even if its ultimately a sandbox that is no where near how things went. They must get this one thing right, for reasons. The seeds of Europe's eventual dominance were already being sown in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, with the Scientific Revolution. It didn't randomly come about as the result of a wacky coincidence in the early nineteenth century or something. I know it's fashionable to call out Eurocentrism nowadays, but there is such a thing as going too far in the other direction. That said, one thing I can agree with is that Europe's military dominance is massively overstated in EUIII. The Ottoman Empire was a serious threat to Europe until the late eighteenth century, and it wasn't until 1816 that an Anglo-Dutch fleet managed to put an official stop to the Christian slave trade in North Africa. In many cases, Europeans also had a lot of trouble physically subjugating the indigenous populations of the areas they had colonized. For example, a native revolt broke out in Yucatán as late as 1847, and it was only put down in 1901. EUIII is really bad at modeling all of the logistical problems that Europeans had in maintaining their colonial empires.
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May 31, 2013 20:36
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Tulip posted:EU basically timewarps Europe about 200 years into the future in a lot of ways - like holy hell manufactories are basically just industrial factories, and free trade doctrines are way more effective in the game than they were historically.
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May 31, 2013 20:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:It's mentioned in Adam Smith in Beijing. I believe Leibnitz, Voltaire, and Frederick the Great among other Enlightenment thinkers all said something along the lines of "Look how awesome China is." Yeah, the late 18th century was filled with European intellectuals trying to portray China as a utopia, especially among the philosophers who had just received the most basic taste of Confucian thought and thought that the whole system was "rule by scholars" and went "hell yeah" about it. Those philosopher's mid-19th century successors found their predecessors' Sinophilia to be very embarrassing...Alexis de Tocqueville was particularly big on mocking Voltaire etc.'s fondness for China. Voltaire was in general fond of using cultures he knew next to nothing about as a thinly-veiled platform for mocking ones closer to home: he wrote scathing things about Muhammad and Islam that were intended as thinly-veiled criticisms of Christianity, for example. See also: Montesquieu's Persian Letters, which is a book where two travelers from late Safavid Persia come to Absolutist France and are absolutely blown away by the similarities, which was intended to draw a connection between absolutism and "Oriental Despotism." Patter Song fucked around with this message at 20:48 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 20:41
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Patter Song posted:Yeah, the late 18th century was filled with European intellectuals trying to portray China as a utopia, especially among the philosophers who had just received the most basic taste of Confucian thought and thought that the whole system was "rule by scholars" and went "hell yeah" about it. Those philosopher's mid-19th century successors found their predecessors' Sinophilia to be very embarrassing...Alexis de Tocqueville was particularly big on mocking Voltaire etc.'s fondness for China. I recently bought de Tocqueville's De la démocratie en Amérique. Can't wait to get started on it. Patter Song posted:Voltaire was in general fond of using cultures he knew next to nothing about as a thinly-veiled platform for mocking ones closer to home: he wrote scathing things about Muhammad and Islam that were intended as thinly-veiled criticisms of Christianity, for example. Right, the thing you have to understand about Voltaire is that he didn't care that much about actual places or actual history, and he often even got basic facts wrong. He was interested in making a point. He makes references to 'Oriental' cultures quite a lot, but in many cases they were meant as allegories for or comparisons to European states, people or habits, and not as things that truly existed of their own accord. I'd be surprised if he had more than a shallow understanding of Chinese society. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 20:54 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 20:47
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Phlegmish posted:I recently bought de Tocqueville's De la démocratie en Amérique. Can't wait to get started on it. It's good, but de Tocqueville's best book is L'Ancien Régime et la Révolution. They're very different topics of course, but de Tocqueville, as a frustrated center-right French politician, has a lot more personal connection to and sharper opinions about the French Revolution than he does about the US. That book was intended as volume I of a trilogy on the French Revolution, but he died before he could finish it, sadly.
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May 31, 2013 20:51
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I haven't kept up with HoD and if I wait until I can access the paradox forums I'll forget about it again so I'll ask here. Anything knew come out since last decemberish? Patch, large mod (other than Kaiserreich), anything of note to make it worth playing again if I've already played it's existing form back then to death?
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May 31, 2013 20:58
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YF-23 posted:Was looking into it earlier, you only get the Protectorate CB for uncivs with more than 1 state (and less than 5) if you have Nationalism and Imperialism. Dunno if that's only for NNM or also vanilla though. He's talking about the Conquest CB though. Kersch posted:Is it ever worth it to promote artisans in Victoria 2? Like for example if you were playing a nation that wasn't going to have access to factories anytime soon? Nope. Artisans exist in theory to fill the gaps in produced goods in the early years, but in practice they just starve to death because they're idiots and then get really mad at you for it.
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May 31, 2013 21:07
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Tulip posted:EU basically timewarps Europe about 200 years into the future in a lot of ways - like holy hell manufactories are basically just industrial factories, and free trade doctrines are way more effective in the game than they were historically.  Britain, as the great empire of the Victorian age, really benefits the most from this tendency to project later developments unto the past.
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May 31, 2013 21:15
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A Buttery Pastry posted:All I get from that is that people projected their wishes unto a faraway land, much like how some Americans project a completely skewed image of "socialist Scandinavia" due to being dissatisfied by their own government. It tells us nothing about the actual China, nor does it really support the idea of Europeans wanting to Sinosize.  That being said, I know that the vast majority of what they said in their Arguments From The Chinese was just them projecting their own ideals onto a society with a completely different language and cultural tradition. Thanks for catching me though, I have a bad tendency to quote poo poo without fully thinking it through.Patter Song posted:Yeah, the late 18th century was filled with European intellectuals trying to portray China as a utopia, especially among the philosophers who had just received the most basic taste of Confucian thought and thought that the whole system was "rule by scholars" and went "hell yeah" about it. Those philosopher's mid-19th century successors found their predecessors' Sinophilia to be very embarrassing...Alexis de Tocqueville was particularly big on mocking Voltaire etc.'s fondness for China. Johann Neuhoff posted:And first of all, it is very observable, that the whole kingdom is swayed by Philosophers, to whom not only the People but the Grandees of the Court yield an awful Reverence, insomuch as they submit with all humility to receive correction from them, as Children from a Master. By these Philosophers are all Military Affairs order'd, over which they are appointed as Overseers; and their Counsel and Opinions make greater impressions upon the Emperor, than all the most admirable Observations of the Commanders themselves, who are but very seldom, and then but some few, taken into Counsel.
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May 31, 2013 21:34
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Fister Roboto posted:in practice they just starve to death because they're idiots and then get really mad at you for it. So they're the Occupy Wall Street of Vicky 2, then?
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May 31, 2013 21:35
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Captain Trips posted:So they're the Occupy Wall Street of Vicky 2, then? Well they are better than that. They actually manufacture products.
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May 31, 2013 21:38
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Fister Roboto posted:Nope. Artisans exist in theory to fill the gaps in produced goods in the early years, but in practice they just starve to death because they're idiots and then get really mad at you for it. Artisans can survive if you don't us Tariffs, or contain huge supplies of a variety of raw materials.
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May 31, 2013 21:56
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In CK2, is there a foolproof (or at least reliable) way to force your vassals to create titles that you can't create yourself? For instance, the Kingdom of Navarra is all under my control (I'm the Empire of Britannia (And Western Europe)), but I'm not a Basque, so I can't create it. But the Duke of Navarra, my vassal, is a Basque. Yet he won't create the title. It's like these guys don't even want to be kings.
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May 31, 2013 22:02
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Maybe he just doesn't save enough money? Try giving him some and see if that helps.
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May 31, 2013 22:03
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Maybe he just doesn't save enough money? Try giving him some and see if that helps. I just remembered that you have to have two duchies to create a kingdom, he only has one. In news of the weird, the Golden Horde just converted to Catholicism. So that's the highlight of 1284, I guess.
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May 31, 2013 22:09
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Spiderfist Island posted:After quoting all of that, and then having it all disproven, I kind of want to eat my own foot.
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May 31, 2013 22:22
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A_Raving_Loon posted:Artisans can survive if you don't us Tariffs, or contain huge supplies of a variety of raw materials. I'd rather have millions in the bank then happy artisans. Get a job you idiots 
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May 31, 2013 22:24
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Also why is the Chinese Bureaucracy the center point of trying to gimp China? The Chinese Bureaucracy was a marvel of efficiency and good government given the enormous hurdles of space (jesus christ China is big for a state without electronic communication), population (breaking 100 million by 1500 holy hell), and time (that poo poo lasted forever). It makes more sense to me to just make sure the overextension penalties are really goddamn high and that just hanging on to as much territory as China does in the EU period more or less demands complete inward attention.A Buttery Pastry posted:Or, in the case of Britain, 300-350 years. This was the form of overkill in EU that drove me the most nuts. If i'm looking for a historical example of how EU3's PU-inheritance mechanics work, it'd be Scotland inheriting England. Except that never happens because England Uber Alles just steamrolls over Scotland with tanks or some poo poo and unifies it all by 1450 at the latest. You don't need to have 8 bajillion mechanics kludged together to force a particular result, that's just messy as hell.
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May 31, 2013 22:32
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Hey guys, installing EU3 Chronicles onto a new computer. I assume the 5.2 patch is the latest and greatest and there's no recent beta patch or anything?
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May 31, 2013 22:54
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