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Wait she's got a sword in that picture. I don't remember DPC having swords in its style weapons. Was the picture drawn first and crowbarred into an unrelated martial art style? 
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Jun 2, 2013 11:52
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Honestly it would not surprise me in the least if that were the case.
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Jun 2, 2013 11:56
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Kai Tave posted:Honestly it would not surprise me in the least if that were the case. Nope, Charm was ported almost word-for-word from 1e.
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Jun 2, 2013 12:45
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Was the illustration not also in 1E? I honestly can't remember, it's been years since I last cracked an Exalted book.
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Jun 2, 2013 12:47
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Nope. Illustration was new to 2E. That was someone's rendition of the Seahorse Charm.
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Jun 2, 2013 12:54
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Though plenty of art was reused from other 2E books in the first DTRPG products, I think that no 1E art was reused for all of 2E.
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Jun 2, 2013 13:04
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I feel like it would stick out, as 1e stuff and 2e stuff tend to have different aesthetics. Unrelated, is Invisible Fortress still going to be canon in 3E?
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Jun 2, 2013 13:11
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Looking at the Language Merit preview I guess the, "take a specialization in the language to be able to speak it fluently" has been removed, which is probably for the best, I can't think of a time a single ST I played with remembered that little detail or cared about.
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Jun 2, 2013 14:23
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Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? Or are those supposed to be the exceptions, and most Liminals come from people (and such) trying to make a Liminal? ("That Shadowland is really getting out of control, let's stitch us up a new sheriff!")
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Jun 2, 2013 15:06
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Perhaps Language should be a Story merit. After all, what if someone just smugly declares that they've picked up in a month something your character spent years of their childhood learning!
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Jun 2, 2013 15:09
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? People don't KNOW there is a setting rule that says its impossible, they'll just try and find out it doesn't work that way. Some people will have some knowledge that implies this is a thing but set out to prove that wisdom wrong or because they think they finally found the solution. Some people are aware of the rule but try anyway because they are mad with grief or maybe just literally mad.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:10
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? My guess would be that there's a considerable amount of misinformation about the subject. We have our stories about Frankenstein and voodoo and saints raising people from the dead and what not in real-life. There's no reason why people in Creation can't have theirs, some of which would be believed by some people.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:10
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? Could be several reasons: Arrogance: "Just because no one's ever done it before doesn't mean I'll fail!" (This is probably the best motivation for Exalt-as-creator, really.) Ignorance: I mean, you've got people who've never been outside their small kingdom or whatever, they may just not know that it's not possible. Not everyone knows the iron laws of the setting. Grief: It's slightly implied that you don't really -need- the ritual. So you've got someone weeping their eyes out over the body of their child or spouse or etc, and making silent promises to whoever will listen. And then the Dark Mother does. It's my body, dammit!: Similar to the above, only backwards. A freshly minted ghost with unfinished business keeps trying to animate his own corpse and walk it around, doing the same sort of thing. And then well, it comes back, only without the ghost in it. So now the ghost hangs around trying to convince the new person in his corpse to put right what he couldn't. And so on.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:20
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? Why do people in the real world keep attempting Cold Fusion even though everything they use as evidence has repeatedly been shown to be false or misinterpreted data? It happens all the time, otherwise very smart people who should really know better think they're special, they're different, that only their genius can crack the code.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:24
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? The absence of 10k+ years of reliable history, for one. Even a brilliant savant doesn't have some First Age treasure trove of information on what has and has not been achieved in the sorcerous arts; somebody driven more by obsession than the achievements of knowledge probably has nothing to go on at all, except hope beyond hope.
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Jun 2, 2013 16:01
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Besides, do you really think Big Reincarnation up in the sky would want anyone to know that there's a way out of their celestial pyramid scheme? If the ghosts can gently caress with the system, surely you can to!
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Jun 2, 2013 16:12
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Plus, as far as some people are concerned resurrection does work. For instance, sometimes it produces a Liminal Exalt.
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Jun 2, 2013 16:22
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And I'm sure there's a kind of rear end in a top hat demon that can be summoned by certain resurrection rituals and the like, coming to Creation in the shape of the deceased person and confusing everything for everyone. Seems like the sort of thing that would exist.
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Jun 2, 2013 17:09
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unseenlibrarian posted:It's my body, dammit!: Similar to the above, only backwards. A freshly minted ghost with unfinished business keeps trying to animate his own corpse and walk it around, doing the same sort of thing. And then well, it comes back, only without the ghost in it. So now the ghost hangs around trying to convince the new person in his corpse to put right what he couldn't. unseenlibrarian posted:And so on. Maybe it's just me, though.
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Jun 2, 2013 17:17
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? It's possible that Liminals lie to deliberately muddy the waters. ('I totally am your son!') You second idea about the sheriff is honestly pretty cool. Also, while resurrection is indeed impossible, experiments that create life were canon in 1E and 2E, so it may be possible for Liminals to spring from someone's failed attempt to introduce life into a golem or whip themselves up a new batch of djala.
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Jun 2, 2013 19:37
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If I can play a dude who can shift from a horseback lancing warrior-guy to a leather shield and warclub-guy effortlessly that would own.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:38
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Ferrinus posted:Perhaps Language should be a Story merit. After all, what if someone just smugly declares that they've picked up in a month something your character spent years of their childhood learning! So, how exactly did you pick up that dot of melee, mister? I don't recall you spending years training to improve your proficiency with all weapons, like my character did in his backstory...?
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Jun 2, 2013 22:18
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Plague of Hats posted:Plus, as far as some people are concerned resurrection does work. For instance, sometimes it produces a Liminal Exalt. A Deathlord seeks its ancient, well preserved corpse from a well-protected tomb created by the Dragonblooded Shogunate. In doing so, it hopes to attempt to resurrect it, making it into a Liminal servant.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:35
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Ferrinus posted:Perhaps Language should be a Story merit. After all, what if someone just smugly declares that they've picked up in a month something your character spent years of their childhood learning! I thought that the Story merit doesn't mean that you can't spend XP on it. I thought it meant that you can spend bonus points on it at character creation or XP whenever you're spending XP, but the ST is encouraged to hand it out for free in play if it makes sense for you to have picked it up by now.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:39
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I thought that the Story merit doesn't mean that you can't spend XP on it. I thought it meant that you can spend bonus points on it at character creation or XP whenever you're spending XP, but the ST is encouraged to hand it out for free in play if it makes sense for you to have picked it up by now. I think Story merits are only available for build points at chargen or through roleplaying in play. I could be wrong, but the facetious complaint I make in the post you quoted was Holden's exact reasoning for why Tempered By The Elements should be a Story merit in the kickstarter comments. Mind you, Story merits costing XP unless you trick the Storyteller into giving you them for free would probably be even worse than Story merits being only ever being XP-free.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:48
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Ferrinus posted:I think Story merits are only available for build points at chargen or through roleplaying in play. I could be wrong, but the facetious complaint I make in the post you quoted was Holden's exact reasoning for why Tempered By The Elements should be a Story merit in the kickstarter comments. I've never really liked the idea of chargen only merits, since most of the time characters really come to life in play and neat back-story stuff like 'I am of noble blood' can be thought up a few sessions in. It encourages trying to have everything about the character set in stone from chargen, it's lame.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:58
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The people who are sure it doesn't work are probably those Twilights who killed thousands of people to try and put their souls back together afterwards in the First Age. Turns out people didn't like that sort of thing much and now they're all dead! 
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Jun 2, 2013 23:03
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Zereth posted:The people who are sure it doesn't work are probably those Twilights who killed thousands of people to try and put their souls back together afterwards in the First Age. Also, it helps to keep in mind that the most important reason for why resurrection doesn't work is because it would make death meaningless in the "it's okay, we've got a high-level cleric" way. Killing people in Exalted matters because there are no backsies.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:50
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Really, the purpose of 'resurrection is impossible' is to make it more special when, in your campaign, someone gets resurrected.
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Jun 3, 2013 01:10
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Yeah it's way harder to write for a setting where straight up resurrection is a thing, especially when you're concerned about giving the social/political implications of the world's magic any thought in your writing. This on top of the tendency on the part of players to treat every possible thing as commonplace, it's a way stronger creative decision for the kind of game they're trying to write if you can't really bring people back from the dead. Exalted is all about doing impossible things, but in order for that to have any weight there have to be things that are impossible in the first place.
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Jun 3, 2013 01:34
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Dodge Charms posted:Jumping back to Liminals real quick: what's the in-world justification for people (and such) to keep trying resurrection, even though that has never worked even once in 10k+ years? Death sucks a big one, and they are surrounded by weird rear end magic powers. I mean there are ghosts, so clearly what you are can hang on a bit after death. And ghosts can possess people. Ghosts can have Ghost-blooded babies. You can make ghosts feel practically alive. Some ghosts have been around for centuries, perhaps thousands of years. These are things people with even a passing knowledge of necromancy would know [And you'd have to think people trying to raise the dead would have a bit of necromantic knowledge, if not actual Necromancy with a big N spells]. If you know a part of you can survive death with memories and can interact with the world in all ways, it's hard to accept that final leap that "But it's totally impossible for the arbitrary marking of 'life' to be applied again to those that are 'dead'". And there is reality. You die, your soul is wiped clean, and it goes into another body. Your soul will, in fact, 'live' again. Exalted, and certain amazingly special mortals, have messed with the fundamental building blocks of reality before. Lethe is a process that exists because someone created it, and the ones that created it got their asses handed to them. Clearly the ability to overcome the limitations of the designers of reality *is* possible. So why can't someone bypass Lethe and that pesky memory wiping process and get their soul into a new body without losing their memories? It's not like Autobot has Lethe. It has a Lethe analog, but it's a different process. All people are looking for is another different process, one that skips the memory wipe. So, not a rhetorical question: With your understanding of the setting as a setting, and not as some game balance rules, tell me why resurrection is *impossible*. Not because "We wanted death to feel meaningful", that's a totally valid game reason not to have it but it's not something characters would know. All characters know is how close and how meaningless and arbitrary are the aspects of the world that keep them from doing one relatively simple thing. Why *wouldn't* they keep trying? Lots of things were impossible right up to the second they weren't. A Terrestrial could never take control of the Realm Defense Grid....until one did. That particular impossibility is the single defining miracle of the modern age of Exalted, the one by which all powers are shaping their actions. In a world of miracles, why would you ever stop believing?
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Jun 3, 2013 01:50
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Boogaleeboo posted:l question: With your understanding of the setting as a setting, and not as some game balance rules, tell me why resurrection is *impossible*. Not because "We wanted death to feel meaningful", that's a totally valid game reason not to have it but it's not something characters would know. All characters know is how close and how meaningless and arbitrary are the aspects of the world that keep them from doing one relatively simple thing. It's easier to think of resurrection as "no one has got it right yet" than "no one gets any results". Lymond fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 02:20
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So, I expected everyone here to pledge 100 dollars more because of the 555k tier. GOLDEN SPINE. Do it! Seriously I am very excited for this, more excited then I need to be really.
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Jun 3, 2013 04:41
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Bardlebee posted:So, I expected everyone here to pledge 100 dollars more because of the 555k tier. GOLDEN SPINE. Have they apologized for their insanely offensive preview and their toxic response yet? Because that's pretty much a pre-requisite before they get a dime of my money.
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Jun 3, 2013 06:16
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Boogaleeboo posted:Death sucks a big one, and they are surrounded by weird rear end magic powers. I mean there are ghosts, so clearly what you are can hang on a bit after death. And ghosts can possess people. Ghosts can have Ghost-blooded babies. You can make ghosts feel practically alive. Some ghosts have been around for centuries, perhaps thousands of years. These are things people with even a passing knowledge of necromancy would know [And you'd have to think people trying to raise the dead would have a bit of necromantic knowledge, if not actual Necromancy with a big N spells]. If you know a part of you can survive death with memories and can interact with the world in all ways, it's hard to accept that final leap that "But it's totally impossible for the arbitrary marking of 'life' to be applied again to those that are 'dead'". If the most knowledgeable and best informed people are the ones best equipped to attempt to raise the dead (and thus make a Liminal instead), and they have access to thousand year old ghosts who have been summoned to consult on such matters many times, I'd expect at least some of them to come to the conclusion that holy crap, there is no evidence to point to even partial success, maybe I should just summon a neomah and order in tonight. Compare it with martial arts or demon summoning or thaumaturgy or prayer, where you have a long history of practice being rewarded, building towards the state of the art today. That doesn't mean NOBODY will keep trying, just like people keep trying cold fusion or whatever, but the number of cold fusion guys is going to be small compared to the number of guys using, I dunno, solar panels. It seems to me that they're all the same cut of obsessed out-of-touch yet also knowledgeable and puissant savant, the "mad scientist" trope if you will. And that's what I'm complaining about : the small number of very samey-feeling origin stories. (This is IMHO a consequence of the impossibility of resurrection, but it might also be just a limitation of my imagination.)
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Jun 3, 2013 06:17
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Valhawk posted:Have they apologized for their insanely offensive preview and their toxic response yet? Because that's pretty much a pre-requisite before they get a dime of my money. Project Update #23 posted:But before we get to our usual Milestones breakdown, we need to address the concerns that the Abyssals Preview raised after we posted it. We're extremely sorry that the intent of the Charms was not clear and that the descriptions did not convey the powers to such an extent as to make readers upset. The Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears's Charms were written as they were to emulate the truly evil actions she is capable of, but it is clear from the comments here and across the internet that we were not clear in exactly what those evils were. After reading through them with the concerns of others as our guide, as opposed to our intentions, we can see how some folks were appalled at what was presented. Rest assured that we are listening to ALL of the feedback and are adjusting the text to create the interpretation of the Charms that we did intend. In the spirit of further clarification, I give you this message from the Devs:
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Jun 3, 2013 06:52
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Oligopsony posted:Sorta, kinda, not really: Them doubling down like a bunch of unbelievably tone-deaf idiots was part of the whole "toxic-response" thing I mentioned.
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Jun 3, 2013 07:13
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Valhawk posted:Them doubling down like a bunch of unbelievably tone-deaf idiots was part of the whole "toxic-response" thing I mentioned. I sort of assume at this point they're just gonna set the whole mess aside until they start gearing up for the Abyssals hardback.
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Jun 3, 2013 07:30
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Attorney at Funk posted:I sort of assume at this point they're just gonna set the whole mess aside until they start gearing up for the Abyssals hardback. That's not nearly good enough, considering that last we heard they doubled down on it. So, none of my money for them, I guess.
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Jun 3, 2013 08:27
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Valhawk posted:That's not nearly good enough, considering that last we heard they doubled down on it. So, none of my money for them, I guess. Yeah, I don't blame you.
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Jun 3, 2013 08:36
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