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theshim posted:Luna is very conspicuously vague about what license she has, though! She's a veterinarian. Her family hasn't been very supportive, and she worries people would freak out if it was a "dog doctor" waving the magic diagnosis machine over them.
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Jun 2, 2013 06:19
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Luna really IS an Audino. Just wait for her to whip out Heal Pulse with that medical license.
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Jun 2, 2013 06:28
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saihate posted:Luna really IS an Audino. Just wait for her to whip out Heal Pulse with that medical license. Does this mean everyone around her wants to kill her? 
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Jun 2, 2013 06:41
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Nidoking posted:In this case, it sounds like she's saying "the Mouse King", which I (and Wikipedia) take to be a reference to The Nutcracker. I think it works even less well, since the type of animal is right there in the name. There aren't too many rodent antagonists people would actually recognize. If she had just called him 'mouse king' and didn't mean the character from Nutcracker it would be pretty bad, but I think that story is recognizable enough. The Flowers for Algernon reference is definitely better though.
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Jun 2, 2013 06:46
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saihate posted:Luna really IS an Audino. Just wait for her to whip out Heal Pulse with that medical license. Luna seems more like the Nurse at the Pokemon Center, with the ADAM being that machine that you put your Pokemon in.
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Jun 2, 2013 06:57
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The thing that makes a great reference isn't just that it's recognizable; it's that it sounds like a specific reference even to people who don't get it. Not understanding "mouse king" doesn't make you feel like you missed a joke; not understanding "Algernon" definitely does. It at least saves the character from sounding boring and/or dumb to people who miss what they're doing.
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Jun 2, 2013 08:29
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At least Luna pointed out she had a medical license, and not "I'm a doctor," because then I'd be certain she's a botanist or something.
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Jun 2, 2013 10:04
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John Lee posted:At least Luna pointed out she had a medical license, and not "I'm a doctor," because then I'd be certain she's a botanist or something. "I'm a doctor of theology, but I'm pretty sure this device can tell me which Hell Quark's going to end up in."
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Jun 2, 2013 10:09
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 VLR OST: [Ambidexterity]  The following sound clip contains six unbroken minutes of Zero III cycling through accents while explaining things. Listen in (or miss out!): [English/Japanese]   Astute observation.   I've been waiting...  So have we! We've got some questions for you, Zero! Who was that old wo--  All...?  The other people in the other rooms are asking me stuff just like you are, Siggy. I guess you probably can't hear them, since these rooms are completely soundproof, but.. B.O. is.. especially loud.  I've gotta hurry and explain all this stuff or the game'll end before I'm done! ...  Sooooo no more questions from now on! No answers for anybunny, okay? You'll just have to wait.   Let me tail you about the AB Game. Since it's a game, you're obviously going to have an opponent. ...Buuuuut it's not like this is a battle royale where you just fight everybunny. Each round will be a one-on-one battle. Mano-a-mano! Or mano-a-womano! ...Well, there are two people in each pair, aren't there? So it'll be more of a two-one-one battle I guess! Now, I imagine you're all wondering who your hopponent is going to be. It's actually really easy! You'll be competing against whoever you paired up with to go through the Chromatic Doors.  That means that Siggy and Phido will be playing against Moony. And it goes the other way, too! Moony's opporent will be Siggy and Phido. Obviously that means Potassium and Cleaver's enemy will be Alas... ...And B.O. and Quirk's enemy will be Tenmyoldy. Weeeeell I guess "enemy" isn't really the right word, is it?  ... What? Don't get it? Well, don't worry. Just listen while Zero III explains it all.   All you guys have to do is pick! Just pick one of those easy hoptions. Your BP will go up or down, depending on what you pick. It's a little complicated, and some of you are a little slow, so I made this handy chart!  ... So, let's say you choose "ally" and so does your opponent. You'll get 2 BP, and so will they, and you'll all get a nice warm, fuzzy feeling inside. We call that the "Best Pals" outcome. Just puts a smile on your face, doesn't it? ... Next is what you get if you choose "ally," but your opponent chooses to betray! If that happens, you lose 2 BP, and they get 3. We call that the "Stupid Jerkface" outcome. Somebody did that to me, I'd skin 'em and stew 'em with some taters. ... The third choice is the hopposite of that. It's when you choose "betray," but your nice, innocent opponent chooses "ally." This time you're the one who gets 3 BP, and they're the one who loses 2.  We call that the "Serves Them Right" outcome. I mean, what were they thinking? Choosing "ally" was a stupid choice. And there's nothing for you to feel guilty about. ... And finally... The very last scenario. This is when you choose "betray", and so does your opponent! If that happens, neither of you gets or loses anything. Absolutely zero change in BP. Ugh. Boring. We call this the "Why Even Bother" outcome. As the gamemaster here, this is the situation I want to avoid the most!  Well, let me explain. Remember how I told that both people in a pair share a destiny? Well that applies here too.  That doesn't mean you split your points, though. You both get 3 points, or lose 2 points, or whatever. In other words, what you see on this chart is what you get.  Weeeeell, actually there's a little bit more, but... That'll just have to wait, I guess. After all, it's almost time! Hey! Wait! No. I won't wait and I can't wait. Didn't you hear me? It is time.  You see? It's time for me to be hopping on out of here.   ... VLR OST: [Data] Listen in: [English/Japanese]  What?! Y-You're kidding! You really want me to betray Luna?!  We don't know if she'll ally or not.  That's a loss of 2 points.  What kind of idiot do you think I am? It's one, obviously.  Wait. What do you mean by "it's over"?   ...You're hiding something. Yeah... you've been suspicious from the get-go. I mean, how'd you know my name? Or how about when we found that old lady's body? You didn't even blink. Almost like you knew she would be here... Look, I don't wanna believe it, but... did you... are you...   Fine. If you won't do it, then I-- --don't think so! I'm not gonna move until you give me some answers! If I don't do anything, it'll just vote "ally" for us anyway. ... So let's hear it! What're you hiding?! What's "it's over" supposed to mean?!     That's what I meant.  One...    Time to vote!
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Jun 2, 2013 19:57
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 Voting is now being handled offsite!Do not vote in the thread!Due to underestimating the number of readers, I'm now taking yet another lead from the DR2 thread and conducting polls using EasyPolls. Please enter your votes for AB Game Round 1 vs Luna here. Feel free to discuss and argue the issue, but don't just post Ally or Betray and nothing else or I will be sad.
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Jun 2, 2013 19:57
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I have to say that this is the scene that really made me like Phi. As a player it is rather instinctive that you trust other characters in the game to have best intentions in bad situations, but the truth is you never really know. Betray is actually the best option in a real world situation because you either get nothing or gain something by conning the other person. Picking Ally is risky in comparison because you either get 2 points or you lose 3. Phi understands this and can be very pragmatic about the situation. I kind of wish she was the player character rather than Sigma, but oh well. (Also Fedule, is it ok to talk about the OVA now?)
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Jun 2, 2013 20:13
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This is the Prisoner's Dilemma, isn't it? I remember playing this against some friends of mine once. Granted, we weren't trapped by a psychotic bunny and being forced to play to the death, but the same principle applies, right?
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Jun 2, 2013 20:15
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lotus circle posted:I have to say that this is the scene that really made me like Phi. As a player it is rather instinctive that you trust other characters in the game to have best intentions in bad situations, but the truth is you never really know. Betray is actually the best option in a real world situation because you either get nothing or gain something by conning the other person. Picking Ally is risky in comparison because you either get 2 points or you lose 3. Phi understands this and can be very pragmatic about the situation. I kind of wish she was the player character rather than Sigma, but oh well. I suppose it's OK now. (Also it's gain 3 or lose 2 but yeah)
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Jun 2, 2013 20:20
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Do you really want to be a betraying dickhead on your very first ambidex game? Didn't think so.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:22
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Added Space posted:I'm going to speculate that the AB game is some version of the Prisoner's Dilemma. The hallmarks are there; a group of people that has no reason to trust each other, being isolated into separate rooms, incentive to betray others to improve your own situation. Looks like you were spot on. So here we have a situation where rationally the "correct" choice is to select Betray every time, and yet you presumably still need to get up to 9BP to escape. A lot depends on how many rounds of voting there, but regardless of that if everyone picks Betray every time then nobody wins. Alternatively, assuming at least three rounds of voting, if everyone picks Ally every time then everyone wins I don't know what conclusion to draw from all this, just throwing that stuff out there.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:23
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The game is kinda broken in emulating the prisoner dilemma, since there's a strategy we can employ that does not require any trust on the part of the participants. Since a betray/ally still results in a net gain of points, and a betray/betray results in no net loss of points, if the players agree beforehand to always choose betray/ally (such that the person with the fewest points chooses betray so that nobody will ever die), then eventually everyone will get enough points. If a player, for whatever reason, chooses to deviate from this, then either it will be betray/betray, in which case nothing bad happens, or ally/ally, in which case the net gain is even greater.
Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 20:23
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The pairs we came up with are...interesting here. There's probably no way Alice and Clover will betray each other, unless K interjects. (Also, Potassium is the greatest possible nickname Zero III could have come up with.) Likewise, if Quark and Tenmyoldy (I don't remember how to spell his name aaaaa) really are close like it showed earlier, they won't betray each other either. Unless Dio has something to say about it, which he probably does. As for Luna.... Well now I'm just imagining Luna laughing maniacally and slamming her hand down on the "BETRAY" button. It's a pretty funny image.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:27
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All I can say is wow to the current poll results. Also I'm feeling pretty smug about my effort post being nearly completely right on everything so far 
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Jun 2, 2013 20:28
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Dr. Stab posted:The game is kinda broken in emulating the prisoner dilemma, since there's a strategy we can employ that does not require any trust on the part of the participants. Since a betray/ally still results in a net gain of points, and a betray/betray results in no net loss of points, if the players agree beforehand to always choose betray/ally (such that the person with the fewest points chooses betray so that nobody will ever die), then eventually everyone will get enough points. If a player, for whatever reason, chooses to deviate from this, then either it will be betray/betray, in which case nothing bad happens, or ally/ally, in which case the net gain is even greater. The problem with your strategy is the "eventually" portion. For everyone to escape the 9 door you need a total net gain of at least 36 points spread between all players. Choosing betray/ally would work swimmingly if you were able to repeat the process 12 times and guaranteed the matchups in a way that would allow the points to be distributed evenly but I doubt they'll have that luxury. This is also assuming that the rules and/or point values don't change between sessions, which we don't know for sure right now.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:29
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Like Color Printer said a lot of the other players know each other and will probably team up. If Sigma and Phi are the only ones who pick betray now they would just make themselves into targets. Seems like a terrible way to try and get out alive.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:33
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Ah, the Prisoner's Dilemma. Always a fun thing to throw into a game to the death. Data is...eh. It's a very bleak, tense theme, but in a series packed to the brim with them, it doesn't stand out at all.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:33
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Come on people choose betray.  You know you want to
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Jun 2, 2013 20:35
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I'm pretty confident that choosing Ally won't hurt us in this case. What's going to be interesting is to see who inevitably chooses to Betray, and what the emotional fallout will be, when the results are announced and the band gets back together.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:35
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Also some speculation: This could be how the whole "Good People Die"/"Virtue's Last Reward" subtitles come into play, since in a prisoner's dilemma situation such as this choosing to cooperate can easily lead to your own demise.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:42
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You know, this is a pretty flawed version of the Prisoner's Dilemma, because choosing betray(outside of using Dr. Stab's plan) is the worst possible thing you can do. Mainly because it's instantly obvious who chose betray, and because they'll have to play the game more than once. Imagine if after ratting out the other guy, the prisoners were all left in the same room, told which one of them betrayed the others, and were asked to play nice while they set up the next game. If we betray Luna, and she chooses ally, then who the hell is going to trust us next game? They'll just choose betray, because either it'll do nothing, or we'd lose 2 of the three points we got. And those who choose ally can keep allying with others to increase their points, knowing that anyone who chooses betray can be ganged up on in the next game. And if it becomes known that knocking someone down to 0 BP kills them, then it's not like anyone is going to choose betray against someone with 2 or less BP, because then they'd be murderers and have even worse trust issues with the others. So, we're left with a game that at first glance looks like it is encouraging the group to back-stab each other to get ahead, but is actually punishing anyone stupid enough to push betray. Unless there's another gimmick, which there might well be.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:43
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Color Printer posted:As for Luna.... I can see it now in my head, and I fully support this mental image. A big reason why I like the English VA for Zero III is because adding a bit of personality and silliness to it really helps in keeping your attention when they're doing this massive rules lecture. To me, it just seems way more memorable, as opposed to just droning on about it.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:46
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lotus circle posted:Betray is actually the best option in a real world situation because you either get nothing or gain something by conning the other person. And now I think of it, if we've shown we're that self-focused then they're definitely not going to even risk a second betrayal, since we'd be even more likely to do it the second time given that'd immediately put us at 9BP and home free. And come on, do you really want to be a jerk to Luna?
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Jun 2, 2013 20:48
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Astus posted:So, we're left with a game that at first glance looks like it is encouraging the group to back-stab each other to get ahead, but is actually punishing anyone stupid enough to push betray. Unless there's another gimmick, which there might well be. My gut instinct tells me that the numbers on the bracelets won't actually reflect the aggregate results until the very end and thus no one will no for sure what the results of the polling were. Problem is that would make the BP display on the bracelets useless and that doesn't sound right for this type of game.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:48
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Super Jay Mann posted:Also some speculation: This could be how the whole "Good People Die"/"Virtue's Last Reward" subtitles come into play, since in a prisoner's dilemma situation such as this choosing to cooperate can easily lead to your own demise. English trailers for this game contain the most spectacularly hamhanded title drops known to mankind. I don't know what the hell the marketing people were thinking. "Which will you choose? Will you choose Virtue? Or send your opponent to their Last Reward? [sic]
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Jun 2, 2013 20:51
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From the perspective of getting out the fastest, betray doesn't make much sense. With ally, we can get out in 3 rounds. With betray, we can get out in 2. However, It's pretty easy to assume that anybody who picked betray in the first round will be subsequently betrayed, thus eliminating the possibility of getting out any faster. Also, since we are already requiring that the opponent pick ally two times in a row to get out with betrayl, if we instead pick ally in that case, both sides will be at 7 points, at which point there is no reason to pick betray unless you really want to gently caress someone over, so the game will be effectively solved after 2 rounds of mutual ally.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:57
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Edit: Never mind, just saw the image that answers my question. (Guess it didn't load properly for me the first time.) Next question, then - how the heck does Phi know about that rule? DaveWoo fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 21:02
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Well, phi explicitly says that you will die.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:08
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If we assume we want all 9 players out, we want to gain as many total points as possible. Ally/Ally is +6 points, Betray/Betray is a waste of a round. For Ally/Betray, if the pair is the traitor, that's +4 in total. If the solo backstabs, it's -1. There's just no reason to betray. Assuming we want all 9 players out. If you just want to get yourself out, you can hypothetically escape in two rounds, blah blah things already said by others. I don't know what Phi is thinking, acting like betrayal is the rational option. If it were me, I'd chuck my AB card in the trash and let the system automatically ally.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:24
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distactedOne posted:If we assume we want all 9 players out, we want to gain as many total points as possible. Ally/Ally: Sigma, Phi and Luna all get 2 points each. Betray/Betray: None of them get any points. No gain, no loss. Betray/Ally: Sigma and Phi get 3 points, while Luna loses 2 points. Ally/Betray: Sigma and Phi lose 2 points, while Luna gets 3 points. And you sort of need to think about the situation they're in. Locked in a place with total strangers (only a couple people seem to know one another from before), one of them is the person who locked everyone in and on top of that they just found a dead body. From our perspective as the player we can be a little more rational about it, but from the perspective of a character kidnapped and forced to play an insane game, getting out ASAP may be the priority here. You may want to be nice and help everyone get out, but what about the others? Can you trust that they feel the same? That's the meaning behind the Ambidex Game - do you trust the other person not to con you if they can? lotus circle fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 21:30
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lotus circle posted:Your math is a little off there dude. quote:And you sort of need to think about the situation they're in. Locked in a place with total strangers (only a couple people seem to know one another from before), one of them is the person who locked everyone in and on top of that they just found a dead body. From our perspective as the player we can be a little more rational about it, but from the perspective of a character kidnapped and forced to play an insane game, getting out ASAP may be the priority here.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:37
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Basically, I think we all agree that from a utilitarian, pragmatic point of view, the optimal strategy is just to always Ally. That way, everyone gets out in three rounds, no muss, no fuss. Of course, knowing that's the case, what do you think the odds are that somebody's going to pick "Betray" at some point?
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Jun 2, 2013 21:37
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DaveWoo posted:Basically, I think we all agree that from a utilitarian, pragmatic point of view, the optimal strategy is just to always Ally. That way, everyone gets out in three rounds, no muss, no fuss. Roughly 100%, I would wager.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:44
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When I was playing I just sort of assumed you'd die at 0 before this was revealed. Why else would the numbers be able to go down, really?
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Jun 2, 2013 21:47
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I'm going to guess that the BP won't update until we're through the next set of chromatic doors. Since they're different colors this time we'll be teaming up with different people. You don't have the option to immediately strangle someone who betrayed you and you get intel on the next person you're going up against. Also, in the version of the Prisoner's Dilemma with multiple trials it's usually to your advantage to ally in the first round.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:51
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Perhaps there'll be chances for players to steal other players' BP, or gain extra BP for backstabbing them somehow.  jonjonaug posted:Roughly 100%, I would wager. Don't be silly, probabilities can't go above 100%. lotus circle posted:Your math is a little off there dude. He's talking about the total numbers of BP, eg if both Ally all three get 2BP, so +6BP total.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:57
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