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I'm really curious about how Intel will shape up Haswell-derived SoCs and solutions to go after what ARM ate out from underneath them with the mobile craze of recent years. Power efficiency is such a huge part of purchasing decisions now by both enterprise and consumers it's kind of amazing that Intel's been able to keep delivering improvements on x86. Most companies that have bought their huge cloud datacenters have already bought the LGA 2011 based Xeons years ago or have custom-built themselves lean pizza boxes based upon Xeon E3s or E5s (Google, Facebook, etc.) so unless you can save $n million in power savings until the next refresh, you're looking at a complete flop for Haswell Xeons out of the gate (on the order of Bulldozer bad or Prescott-ish era Xeons where Intel shed significant market share to AMD's Opterons).Yudo posted:Anyone have experience with MSI motherboards? Yudo posted:Oddly, the low end is where Intel actually has competition. Jaguar looks like a great little core.
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Jun 2, 2013 18:46
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emuporium posted:http://www.microcenter.com/site/brands/intel-processor-bundles.aspx Wow, a good Asrock motherboard and a 4770k for less than the price of the processor alone in the UK.
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Jun 2, 2013 19:18
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necrobobsledder posted:I'm really curious about how Intel will shape up Haswell-derived SoCs and solutions to go after what ARM ate out from underneath them with the mobile craze of recent years. Power efficiency is such a huge part of purchasing decisions now by both enterprise and consumers it's kind of amazing that Intel's been able to keep delivering improvements on x86. Most companies that have bought their huge cloud datacenters have already bought the LGA 2011 based Xeons years ago or have custom-built themselves lean pizza boxes based upon Xeon E3s or E5s (Google, Facebook, etc.) so unless you can save $n million in power savings until the next refresh, you're looking at a complete flop for Haswell Xeons out of the gate (on the order of Bulldozer bad or Prescott-ish era Xeons where Intel shed significant market share to AMD's Opterons). Haswell, as far as I understand, is not necessarily competing directly with ARM unless arm starts to scale into larger devices. There is nether a phone Haswell (does Intel even have an LTE modem?), nor will there be cheapo tablets based on it anytime soon. That is Atom country--I know there is a 3w Haswell, but Intel has positioned Silvermont better for IPad like tables and phones. Haswell is more the laptop/ultrabook/surface type chip, and perhaps it is enough to make ultra books less lovely if still expensive. Haswell desktop parts also don't seem to be all that much more power efficient than Ivy, though I guess that depends on how quickly they get back to idle. Intel has developed server Atoms, as has AMD server Jaguars. This is just my take on it, I'm sure others more in the know here will correct me. necrobobsledder posted:I've bought two of their motherboards before, one in the past year and one several years ago, both for mid and low-end AMD boards. I've noticed they're a tad cheaper than most other brands but I consider them at least as dependable on their engineering as ASrock. On their worst day, their stuff is nowhere near as bad as ECS is. I am actually looking at a rather high end board from MSI: "Z87 MPower MAX." While it looks goofy, it has a lot of features and is being offered with a rather generous bundled discount. Otherwise its an overprice Gigabyte board or the ASUS Z87-PRO, which is my second choice but more fan headers would be nice. Is ECS like a Biostar? necrobobsledder posted:Intel seems to be trying to use Atom to be price-competitive against AMD rather than trying to scale down Haswell cores to shut them down there (pricing so low is hard for Intel to do historically and is definitely part of how they were looked over compared to AMD for the next-gen consoles). The APU strategy is working very well for AMD in the low-end market and if they had had them ready for the netbook era, they could have dominated Intel there (case in point, nVidia's Ion did admirably well then until Intel nipped that one in the bud with the lawyer-based strategy) and made them re-think ever trying to pursue Atom as more than a hobby / proof of concept CPU. I think that is smart, or at least AMD is doing the same: Jaguar is distinct from Piledriver. Ion was the only think that made my awful netbook usable, letting me (gasp) watch 720p video on long flights. Jaguar needs some tuning, but looks well designed for inexpensive thin laptops and tablets. If OEMs actually make desirable devices, Intel may be holding its breath until they can ship Silvermont in bulk--though they did just win a Samsung tablet. I am very interested in how Intel prices their i3 parts and if they ship them with respectable video.
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Jun 2, 2013 19:25
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Yudo posted:(does Intel even have an LTE modem?)
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Jun 2, 2013 19:31
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I want that loving skull shirt so bad
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Jun 2, 2013 19:59
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necrobobsledder posted:Seems pretty ballsy given that they'll have to die harvest Haswell chips for something and if that's what they're doing for their mobile strategy, well that's pretty risky if you ask me. They don't really have to, though. Intel likes getting good yields, and they are pretty good at it. You can't even harvest that many dual core CPUs from Haswell anyway - the CPU cores are only 1/3rd of the total die area. They'd get a low single digit percentage gain in yields out of it. Ivy Bridge Pentiums weren't die harvested either. They had two dual core layouts (with GT1/GT2 graphics) that they used to supply the Pentium/Celeron lines.
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Jun 2, 2013 20:55
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Yudo posted:I am actually looking at a rather high end board from MSI: "Z87 MPower MAX." While it looks goofy, it has a lot of features and is being offered with a rather generous bundled discount. Otherwise its an overprice Gigabyte board or the ASUS Z87-PRO, which is my second choice but more fan headers would be nice. Is ECS like a Biostar? edit: See Alereon's post below about ECS/PCChips. They're still both bad though so don't buy their products. future ghost fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 21:06
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Grabbed a 4770K and a Sabertooth Z87 from Microcenter couldn't pass up that deal. Went all out on other poo poo while I was there too. I think even with tax I'm still under Newegg/Amazon/Tiger Direct and have everything I need to do the build today.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:26
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w00tazn posted:Grabbed a 4770K and a Sabertooth Z87 from Microcenter couldn't pass up that deal. Sabertooths still have the awesome/ridiculous polymer "thermal armor" thing? I love that about my Sabertooth P67. And I really feel, yet again, a generation to pass up - given moderately poor overclocking, why bother or go to the expense of upgrading my 4.7GHz 2600K, especially since they screwed some of the features I was hoping they would not? I'm not short on PCI-e lanes after all, so I guess it'll be post-Broadwell for me.
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Jun 2, 2013 21:52
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LCD Deathpanel posted:Don't buy an ECS. They are about on tier with PCChips. Edit: As an example, I'd rank ECS above Jetway, who are in a very similar position to PC Chips in my opinion. I think they're probably even better than Zotac boards, which have serious lifespan issues (at least on their Mini-ITX boards). Alereon fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 21:53
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Alereon posted:ECS and PC Chips are the same company, but they're nowhere near on the same quality tier. ECS is the fifth largest motherboard manufacturer and used to manufacture boards for a number of tier 1 manufacturers, including Abit back in the day. ECS boards are definitely about the cheapest you can get that still usually work, and I definitely wouldn't recommend them to anyone, but PC Chips boards are guaranteed to NEVER work so you can't really say they are comparable. Interesting. Thanks for writing this up. The market has changed quite a bit and then not so much: the old big players, Asus and Gigabyte, are still the big players. I feel like going ASUS pro or plus despite the price. They both have more features than I need, but I bought a pro for my i760 and didn't use some of the extras until they became indispensable as my needs changed. It's nice not having to buy add on cards, I guess (but 8 SATA devices? wow, not going to happen). If I am using this thing for the next 4 years, paying a premium now doesn't matter. I also just realized that MSI=Microstar so not buying anything from them, though I'll freely admit to being old, crabby, and set in perhaps antiquated ways. Feel free to point and laugh.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:20
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Yudo posted:I feel like going ASUS pro or plus despite the price. They both have more features than I need, but I bought a pro for my i760 and didn't use some of the extras until they became indispensable as my needs changed. It's nice not having to buy add on cards, I guess (but 8 SATA devices? wow, not going to happen). If I am using this thing for the next 4 years, paying a premium now doesn't matter. Edit: Here's Anandtech's coverage of the lineup, check out the Asus ROG Maximus VI Hero. It seems like it's the high-end parts and design worth paying for, but without the expensive fluff features that push the price above $250. Edit 2: I think the US price will be <$199 for the Hero but I don't actually know. This is the entry-level ROG board and it seems like Asus's Z87 lineup is like $20 cheaper for an equivalent board versus Z77. Chinese price for a combo with a Core i7 4770K at launch converted to USD $488, this may not be similar at all to the US market though. Edit 3: That is legit, I am sure you will enjoy it! I'm looking forward to one myself in a few months once the dust settles. Alereon fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 22:22
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What? Sabertooth Z87? Asus doesn't even list any LGA1150 boards on their site yet.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:26
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Alereon posted:You might want to hold off for an Asus ROG-series board if you're not buying right now, it looks like there's some nice options that are pretty good values. I'm not sure when they're going to be available, I thought they were launching alongside the TUF-series boards but apparently not. Thanks for the suggestion but no more waiting: must waste money now. I need cores and gigahertz and such, and for the most part Asus make good boards--this would be my third pro or deluxe.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:39
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Alereon posted:I think they're probably even better than Zotac boards, which have serious lifespan issues (at least on their Mini-ITX boards). Now that's weird, because Zotac's line of nVidia chipset graphics cards are generally good. nVidia even partnered more closely with them than any other manufacturer in the debut of the (now old, but still) 560Ti-448 card line, which put EVGA in a bit of a spot since they're usually nVidia's go-to launch showoff company. I guess whatever factory line makes the mobos isn't following the same kind of QC standards that the graphics cards get. Also sucks because of the parent company relationship between Zotac and Powercolor, but that's just me being sentimental about old ATI's number one squeeze and the weird old days. Yudo posted:Thanks for the suggestion but no more waiting: must waste money now. I need cores and gigahertz and such, and for the most part Asus make good boards--this would be my third pro or deluxe. Asus aren't above reproach but they've never let me down. They were the ones who got exposed during the Core 2 chips for LLC being a bad thing (though that is, in my opinion, severely overblown as a real issue - chip life with LLC on an Asus board is not going to be meaningfully lower than chip life with LLC off and a steady higher voltage setting, we're not talking Gigabyte-level power fuckery here). As a company they always seem to nail a few very key product areas with a board that does exactly what that market needs, and they had some amazing value prospects on their Z-line of sub-full-ATX boards. Plus they have fantastic BIOSes, nobody beats them there for user experience (imo). They know what to let you do and what to do for you when it comes to all the fiddly stuff you'd have to dick with on a lot of other motherboards when it comes to overclocking. Edit: Reviewing all the overclocking details, I'm just happy to see that under load my Noctua NH-D14 is still hanging in there as a generally top-5 cooler. I hope that when I do eventually upgrade, I'll still be able to mount the gigantic bastard onto the boards of the time. Noctua is a pretty cool company, I've had a lot of communication with them over some stuff I was curious about, but cool doesn't necessarily mean "will happily provide a mounting setup adapter for a three year old product instead of insisting it's time to buy a new cooler." Agreed fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:02
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Agreed posted:Sabertooths still have the awesome/ridiculous polymer "thermal armor" thing? I love that about my Sabertooth P67. And I really feel, yet again, a generation to pass up - given moderately poor overclocking, why bother or go to the expense of upgrading my 4.7GHz 2600K, especially since they screwed some of the features I was hoping they would not? I'm not short on PCI-e lanes after all, so I guess it'll be post-Broadwell for me. Sabertooth Z87 does. It's optional but still available for the mATX version, the Gryphon Z87.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:25
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Oh man, my i7 920 I got years ago at Microcenter because it was a deal I couldn't pass up, and now the exact same thing is happening. I've been working since 6am, I'm so hungry and I even have a new video game I wanted to play. Oh poo poo, they close at 6 on Sunday. I'm saved! Except now I'm just going to have to go there after work on Monday. Edit: Wait, is it stupid to get a 4770 is I have my own video card? Would the i5 4670 have that onboard mpeg encorder? Edit: Think I'll cheap out and get the 4670 with the asus Z87-A. It'll still be way faster than what I'm used to. davebo fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:58
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Factory Factory posted:Sabertooth Z87 does. It's optional but still available for the mATX version, the Gryphon Z87. Oh, Asus.  I have to say it did make for the least worrisome install ever, hard to accidentally static stuff when it's underneath a big drat polymer jacket, and I feel it might help ensure the stability of the motherboard (especially in transport) given the gigantic three pound cooling setup bolted onto it, having all those extra areas it's quite snugly connected to on the mobo. And I'll take the 2-3ºC passive, 4-6ºC active cooling boost it gives for god knows what reason.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:33
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I've been trying to read the last few pages of this thread in order to answer my own questions, but unfortunately, most of it is going over my head. I recently accepted a full-time writing job telecommuting, and I think it's about time to get an upgrade on my old Toshiba Satellite laptop that I purchased for college five years ago. I'm not having any technical problems with it or anything, I would just like an upgrade in technology and capability so that I don't run into aging hardware problems while trying to work. While looking around for laptop recommendations, I'm seeing a bunch of people suggesting to wait until computers using this Haswell processor come out. Here's what I'm wondering: 1.) Will laptops with Haswell processors be really noticeably better for the average user who doesn't overclock their hardware or try to play Battlefront with super-mega-amazing-high graphics settings? 2.) If I don't need to be on the absolute cutting edge of hardware (and I doubt that I can afford to be, with a budget of $1,000-$1,200), will the release of Haswell-powered laptops mean price drops for laptops with the current cutting-edge, soon-to-be-outdated processors? 3.) Haswell processors don't seem to be impressing everybody. Is it just because they're difficult to overclock? Or, are there serious flaws with the actual product?
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Jun 3, 2013 00:42
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surf rock posted:I've been trying to read the last few pages of this thread in order to answer my own questions, but unfortunately, most of it is going over my head. I recently accepted a full-time writing job telecommuting, and I think it's about time to get an upgrade on my old Toshiba Satellite laptop that I purchased for college five years ago. I'm not having any technical problems with it or anything, I would just like an upgrade in technology and capability so that I don't run into aging hardware problems while trying to work. Haswell's big gains are more laptop/mobile focused. Its gains in power efficiency and integrated graphics aren't as impressive for desktops, so yeah not everyone will be as in love with it.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:54
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edit not quote
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Jun 3, 2013 00:54
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davebo posted:Oh man, my i7 920 I got years ago at Microcenter because it was a deal I couldn't pass up, and now the exact same thing is happening. I've been working since 6am, I'm so hungry and I even have a new video game I wanted to play. Oh poo poo, they close at 6 on Sunday. I'm saved! Except now I'm just going to have to go there after work on Monday. Every Haswell CPU i3 or above with HD Graphics/Iris/Iris Pro has Quicksync. The 4670 and 4770 additionally have identical GPUs. It's the i7-4770R and future i5-4670R that have the buff graphics that would be worthless if you had a discrete GPU.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:54
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Anandtech has their Haswell HTPC Perspective article, covering 4K decode and QuickSync.
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Jun 3, 2013 02:19
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Agreed posted:Oh, Asus. Thermal Armor 
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Jun 3, 2013 02:30
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Factory Factory posted:Every Haswell CPU i3 or above with HD Graphics/Iris/Iris Pro has Quicksync. The 4670 and 4770 additionally have identical GPUs. It's the i7-4770R and future i5-4670R that have the buff graphics that would be worthless if you had a discrete GPU. Oh my video card isn't discrete. The fan is loud as hell :P
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Jun 3, 2013 02:34
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surf rock posted:I've been trying to read the last few pages of this thread in order to answer my own questions, but unfortunately, most of it is going over my head. I recently accepted a full-time writing job telecommuting, and I think it's about time to get an upgrade on my old Toshiba Satellite laptop that I purchased for college five years ago. I'm not having any technical problems with it or anything, I would just like an upgrade in technology and capability so that I don't run into aging hardware problems while trying to work. Haswell laptops will be both profoundly faster than five year old laptops, and likely have excellent battery life even compared to Ivy Bridge laptops (especially compared to gaming laptops, which are serious power hogs). A $1000-$1200 budget is a pretty big budget for a non-gaming, non-desktop-replacement laptop in my view. You ought to be able to get a pretty wicked computer compared to what you're using now, and you'll definitely notice it. Avoid anything at ALL gaming-oriented and you should be able to fit in features like an SSD (which will be a revelation in computing user experience on a scale you've probably not had since the introduction of dual-core processors, if it's your first SSD). There are good reasons to go with a solid, workhorse Haswell laptop with an SSD extravagance and no unnecessary frills for a user experience that I can't imagine not noticing, honestly. As far as reducing prices on other laptops, hard to say. I've seen prices hold for months after the introduction of next-gen laptops, just as a sort of sucker trap for careless shoppers since naming conventions for laptops are often confusing. Eventually may go down, but there are good reasons to see what $1200 will get you before you try to downgrade your expectations.
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Jun 3, 2013 02:38
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Agreed posted:Haswell laptops will be both profoundly faster than five year old laptops, and likely have excellent battery life even compared to Ivy Bridge laptops (especially compared to gaming laptops, which are serious power hogs). This is extremely helpful, thank you. Can you tell me a bit about how SSDs are so much better than what I'm using now? It's speed and processing power, right? Is the reliability also better? I've heard that they're dramatically better than HDDs in everything but storage space. Also, can you point me to any specific laptop models that fit your description? From the sounds of it, I'm in a great position. I've looking a little bit at the Lenovo ThinkPad W530, but I don't think that that has an SSD. I wouldn't mind if my laptop could do a little gaming, so I'd want whatever I end up getting to have an alright video card. If I have to spend a little extra for that and a nice display screen, I would probably be willing to do that. Here's what I'm working with now, for reference: Intel Pentium Dual CPU T3400 2.16 GHz, with a 32-bit operating system and 4 GB of RAM. Judging from Ebay, my current processor is worth approximately two dollars. I imagine that I'm going to be pretty happy with whatever I end up getting, as pretty much everything will be an improvement. If I ought to pipe down and take these questions over to the laptop thread, just let me know. I don't want to derail the Haswell-talk over here.
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Jun 3, 2013 03:12
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surf rock posted:This is extremely helpful, thank you. Can you tell me a bit about how SSDs are so much better than what I'm using now? It's speed and processing power, right? Is the reliability also better? I've heard that they're dramatically better than HDDs in everything but storage space. The integrated graphics inHaswell will be able to run almost anything as long as you don't expect amazing quality. If all you're going to play is LoL or Hearthstone ro something it will be more than sufficient for your needs. There have only been a couple Haswell laptops announced yet. Check back tomorrow evening and there should be many more. And if you want specific suggestions tomorrow, the new laptop thread should definitely have that covered.
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Jun 3, 2013 03:17
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Omelette du Fromage posted:The integrated graphics inHaswell will be able to run almost anything as long as you don't expect amazing quality. If all you're going to play is LoL or Hearthstone ro something it will be more than sufficient for your needs. Wonderful, alright. I imagine that there's some big unveil happening tomorrow, then. I'll be sure to keep an eye on the laptop thread, thank you.
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Jun 3, 2013 03:29
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surf rock posted:This is extremely helpful, thank you. Can you tell me a bit about how SSDs are so much better than what I'm using now? It's speed and processing power, right? Is the reliability also better? I've heard that they're dramatically better than HDDs in everything but storage space. I put a fairly mid to low end SSD in my desktop. Loading programs, booting, shutting down, searching files: there is no comparison. I will never use a spinning disk as a primary drive ever again. For a laptop, noise (my HD is very loud), heat and energy usage will also be considerably better with an SSD. In terms of reliability, read the OP in the SSD thread. As long as you buy a good SSD, it should be reliable; the first generation or so was a different story and some brands (OCZ) are notoriously lovely. So yes, a Samsung 840 Pro, Samsung 840 (non-pro, only buy 250 gb or larger due to the kind of memory it uses), Mushkin Enanced etc. will be per GB more expensive than the mechanical varaity, but it is worth every penny. A SSD is the best upgrade I have ever made--gently caress I don't even care if it only lasts 3 years--only rivaled by my Canopus 3Dfx 6mb (800x600  ).
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Jun 3, 2013 03:40
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I finally attempted overclocking my Sandy Bridge i7 2600K. I changed the multiplier in the BIOS to 42. CoreTemp says my CPU temp is fine, so no issues there. Everything seems faster, but System still shows a 3.4 GHZ processor. Is there any other way to check how fast my CPU is really running now?
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Jun 3, 2013 04:45
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HWiNFO64 or CPU-Z will give you the actual clock rate. The system info string is actually hard-coded as "i5-3570K CPU @ 3.40 GHz."
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Jun 3, 2013 05:06
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Agreed posted:Edit: Reviewing all the overclocking details, I'm just happy to see that under load my Noctua NH-D14 is still hanging in there as a generally top-5 cooler. I hope that when I do eventually upgrade, I'll still be able to mount the gigantic bastard onto the boards of the time. Noctua is a pretty cool company, I've had a lot of communication with them over some stuff I was curious about, but cool doesn't necessarily mean "will happily provide a mounting setup adapter for a three year old product instead of insisting it's time to buy a new cooler." edit: Since Haswell's release I've already seen a ton of used 3770K's pop-up. Really considering selling my 2600K right now, although it's fast enough already that I probably don't need to bother other than having a new chip to play with. Martello posted:I finally attempted overclocking my Sandy Bridge i7 2600K. I changed the multiplier in the BIOS to 42. CoreTemp says my CPU temp is fine, so no issues there. Everything seems faster, but System still shows a 3.4 GHZ processor. Is there any other way to check how fast my CPU is really running now? future ghost fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 05:28
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Core Temp gives me between 40-42 C which as far as I know is safe. CPU-Z shows 1648 MHz for the most part but flicks to 4327 or so when the processor is under load - booting Shogun 2 for example. Does that all sound about right? e: oh and also the voltage hovers around 0.9-1.3. Martello fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 06:17
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Those temperatures are idle temps, and the ~1.6 GHz is idle clocks. Flicking up to 4.2 GHz means the overclock worked, but you need a sustained load to verify the correct temperatures.
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Jun 3, 2013 06:22
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Hmmm. I was just running Shogun 2, and I wasn't paying attention to Core Temp but now that I look at it, the Max for all four cores is 98. Is that too high?
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Jun 3, 2013 06:48
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The Max value is the maximum ALLOWED, not the maximum seen. The temperature is reported as the number of degrees below the maximum and converted back into degrees C by your temperature monitoring app. Edit: If you really are seeing that temperature under max load, yes that is a problem.
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Jun 3, 2013 06:58
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I doubt it's hitting 98 at normal voltages and a light 4.2GHz overclock. You're no doubt looking at TJ. Max, which is the maximum specified temperature by Intel for the CPU, it doesn't change. Unless your cooler is full of dust, has a failed fan, or is half falling off, a moderate OC at reasonable voltages should not yield 98°C. Also, yes, anything that uses simply the name of the CPU will show the original GHz value, because it doesn't actually query for the current speed, it's just pulling out a stored string. Such as system info in Windows.
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Jun 3, 2013 09:20
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Haswell is named after a town of 65 people, and oh my God.The Denver Post posted:Haswell Propane, the town's two-pump gas station, uses the community's Wi-Fi signal for its Internet connection. It is a local hangout of sorts even if the snack shelves are often nearly bare (Frito-Lay removed the town from its delivery route years ago). And the single computer in the barber shop/computer room? The only computer in town? Runs an AMD chip.
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Jun 3, 2013 11:56
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Jesus what's wrong with ASUS?! I'm considering buying a Haswell platform, but god drat they have a lot of models. For Z87 chipset alone they have: - Sabretooth - A - C - Deluxe - Deluxe/Dual - Expert - K - Plus - Pro That's 9 models! How I'm supposed to make an informed choice from that bunch? Do they even have some comparison spreadsheets available? Edit: drat motherboard business is completely out of control. Looked at Gigabyte's offerings and they have no less than 15 different models for the same chipset! GA-Z87N-WIFI, GA-Z87P-D3, GA-Z87-D3HP, GA-Z87X-D3H, GA-Z87M-HD3, GA-Z87X-OC, GA-Z87MX-D3H, GA-Z87-HD3, GA-Z87X-UD4H, G1.Sniper 5, GA-Z87M-D3H, GA-Z87X-OC Force, GA-Z87X-UD5H, G1.Sniper M5, GA-Z87X-UD3H I'm starting to understand why people buy market PC's or Mac's instead. Ihmemies fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 14:38
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