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Cynic Jester posted:Jesus. That'll be insane for combo decks. 10 card opening hands. Christ. Seems like raid leader will trivialize a lot of PvE content, because they can't really balance around people having it. I'm fairly surprised that they've allowed them to stack. It seems like a really loose choice (it also encourages people with the bonus to look for others with it as opposed to spreading it around). VVV I'm thinking more in terms of people who aren't specifically joining with friends. If you want to compare it to an MMO, you could see it like a gear check for joining. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 05:21
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Yea, it seems like all the Grand Kings will want to group with other Grand Kings when raiding instead of their friends
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Jun 4, 2013 05:29
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Have they said anything about having a maximum hand size that players have to discard down to at the end of turn? If so, that would reduce the effectiveness of additional raid leaders in the same group for most decks. Although it would be beneficial to filter your opening hand like that, you wouldn't be able to keep most of your extra cards unless you were able to play multiple spells on the first turn.
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Jun 4, 2013 05:31
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Kakesu posted:This is the thing I keep coming back to. What is going to be the big gold sink in this game, so that gold doesn't just continuously inflate? Buying cards and platinum on the AH just moves the gold around, so there has to be something worthwhile to take gold out of the system at a rate comparable to how quickly it enters, otherwise prices will just keep going up and up. Money sinks are the sort of thing that is critical to the success of an MMO but complete poison for PR. How do you spin 'you'll get to pay to repair your equipment!' or whatever into more people buying your game? You just don't.
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Jun 4, 2013 05:31
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Karnegal posted:I'm fairly surprised that they've allowed them to stack. It seems like a really loose choice (it also encourages people with the bonus to look for others with it as opposed to spreading it around). It's the least they could do. That tier's exclusives (+1 card for teammates in raids and an exclusive lifegain/damage prevention card) don't exactly scream "Buy me!" as loudly as the other tiers: -Pro Player (Duh) -Dungeon Crawler (20 super hard to get equipments [the Q&As have been stressing this] for free + double loot from dungeon bosses forever) -Collector tier (extras of all the exclusive cards that can only go up in value + 2x6 per year afterward) Hell, at least the Guild Master comes with $45 worth of boosters to make up for that fact that you exist solely to be a living exp boost in any guild that takes you in. (The inevitable goon guild will likely have a bunch of people with Grand King or higher, so I see no point to getting it - I'll get the exp boost regardless of what tier I pick.) Don't get me wrong - Raid Leader's bonus is very helpful, but the raids won't be balanced around it and it has Guild Leader's problem of being too easy to leech from a buddy. Being able to stack it just takes it from "Meh, I can live without it." to "Potentially broken! (If I can find two people who also have the tier!)".
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Jun 4, 2013 05:55
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Fallorn posted:They can have a raid where you use precon decks and that bonus would not be as strong because of optimized decks. I'm really wondering how they're going to design raid encounters such that decks that can launch something like an infinite combo on turn 2 don't trivialize them. I'm sure there'll be some really ridiculous combos that people will discover, so how do you actually balance PvE raids to account for that?
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Jun 4, 2013 05:59
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Zonekeeper posted:It's the least they could do. That tier's exclusives (+1 card for teammates in raids and an exclusive lifegain/damage prevention card) don't exactly scream "Buy me!" as loudly as the other tiers: I'm thinking it's more that people with grand king would be grouping. Actual raid leader is a sad tier.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:11
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Mr. Peepers posted:I'm really wondering how they're going to design raid encounters such that decks that can launch something like an infinite combo on turn 2 don't trivialize them. I'm sure there'll be some really ridiculous combos that people will discover, so how do you actually balance PvE raids to account for that? That's really not that hard. Raids are intended to be difficult and (from what I gather) are serial 1v3 matches. That means they can give the Raid encounter lots of advantages like pre-set starting hands, starting with cards in play, lots of extra life, etc. I'm absolutely positive they'll have cards exclusive to their own decks that we won't get to play with, too, so even their cards won't need to be balanced as they would if a player could own them.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:14
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Mr. Peepers posted:I'm really wondering how they're going to design raid encounters such that decks that can launch something like an infinite combo on turn 2 don't trivialize them. I'm sure there'll be some really ridiculous combos that people will discover, so how do you actually balance PvE raids to account for that? In addition to what Zurai said, the #1 thing I expect to happen is the computer just going "Nope." and then your combo stops, cut and dry. The AI detects that you're causing an infinite loop and a card magically pops out of their deck and activates, killing everything on your side of the board and forcing you to void/banish/exile/whatever your hand to prevent it from continuing. I also expect them to do something similar to the Magic: The Gathering Archenemy thing, where every upkeep the Archenemy pulls from a special, separate, deck of cards pretty much designed to ruin your day. Vincent Valentine fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 06:33
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Tomorrow, we'll get to start our stream with an explanation about how a wrongly used greater-than-sign made our stream less-than-great. =( Everyone was beyond understanding that we're in alpha and we're simultaneously trying to get this product developed while giving people a look at it. It was really kind of the community. Jedit posted:Yay people fake pledging for Producer, more like. Ain't no way in Hell five people have legitimately ponied up $10,000 in the same day when doing so pushes the campaign over the Alpha stretch. One of them is legit for sure as I spoke to him over email. Foma posted:I am having trouble understanding why gold has any value in the game. You can buy rewards with it, and we also have some fun stuff we're planning to do but can't quite announce yet. BenRGamer posted:And it's over. Unfortunately, I didn't see any answer my question about customizing our custom champion's appearance. If I gotta look at some jerkwad on the corner of my screen in every match, I'd like it to be MY custom jerkwad. Probably in the future, and you'll be able to choose from previous versions when you level up in case you don't like the new version. Reskins are pretty low-hanging fruit, but right now we have to focus on getting stuff out the door and that's going to result in standard looking avatars. Cynic Jester posted:Jesus. That'll be insane for combo decks. 10 card opening hands. Christ. Seems like raid leader will trivialize a lot of PvE content, because they can't really balance around people having it. Hard modes and achievements can help balance this out. Karnegal posted:I'm fairly surprised that they've allowed them to stack. It seems like a really loose choice (it also encourages people with the bonus to look for others with it as opposed to spreading it around). Remember that there's no cooldown on raids.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:37
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Fallorn posted:They can have a raid where you use precon decks and that bonus would not be as strong because of optimized decks. Precons remove literally half the gameplay from a CCG. Setting up a deck is just as much part of the experience as actually playing it, and in some aspects, the far more demanding of it. I can't really see them doing that. It would remove a sense of progression from the PvE gameplay as I'd expect people to not only identify with their avatar, but also their deck. Making it so the rewards you get out of a raid can't be used for that raid is dumb, and limiting the rewards to only the precon set up for that particular raid is even worse. And in regards to combos, they'd have to have some mechanic to block them. Otherwise it doesn't matter how many advantages you give the opponent when infinite damage lands on turn 1 because you have 3 combo decks with 10 cards starting hands mulliganing into their combo pieces. It is especially broken because you have to keep in mind interactions between the 3 player decks as well.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:38
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Blinkman987 posted:
I'm not sure how this doesn't make people with raid leader want to do their raiding with other raider leaders. I don't think it's a huge idea unless it were allowed in a competitive setting, but I'm a little perplexed by the decision to let them stack in the abstract.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:41
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Cynic Jester posted:Precons remove literally half the gameplay from a CCG. Setting up a deck is just as much part of the experience as actually playing it, and in some aspects, the far more demanding of it. I can't really see them doing that. It would remove a sense of progression from the PvE gameplay as I'd expect people to not only identify with their avatar, but also their deck. Making it so the rewards you get out of a raid can't be used for that raid is dumb, and limiting the rewards to only the precon set up for that particular raid is even worse. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if "Attack this raid with this precon deck" does not exist in some form. Maybe not for "standard" raids but for challenge modes or something similar. It's just too easy to design a challenging encounter that way, since it allows you to control both the raid and the attacking force, to pass up the opportunity. You said that it would remove a sense of progression from PVE gameplay if you can't use the rewards you get from a raid to attack that raid, and you're right that that's annoying. But you can still offer tangible rewards that can be used in a precon deck, such as alternate art, special sleeves, etc or remove it from PVE "progression" entirely by making it a special challenge mode that only opens up after you beat the basic raid. The bottom line is that it adds more to do and that's always good.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:48
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Karnegal posted:I'm not sure how this doesn't make people with raid leader want to do their raiding with other raider leaders. I don't think it's a huge idea unless it were allowed in a competitive setting, but I'm a little perplexed by the decision to let them stack in the abstract. Eh, it's a nice bonus, but by no means necessary. +3 starting hand size is all well and good, but if you can't use them on the first turn you have to discard 'em. It doesn't increase hand size.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:48
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Cynic Jester posted:And in regards to combos, they'd have to have some mechanic to block them. Otherwise it doesn't matter how many advantages you give the opponent when infinite damage lands on turn 1 because you have 3 combo decks with 10 cards starting hands mulliganing into their combo pieces. It is especially broken because you have to keep in mind interactions between the 3 player decks as well. But keep in mind that raids don't have to even pretend to play fair. They can start with a card in play that says "I can't lose until XYZ conditions", for example. Sure you might be able to set up some crazy 1000-damage 2nd turn combo, it doesn't matter if the raid is immune to damage until you remove an Invincible creature and two enchantments from the board.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:49
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Cynic Jester posted:Precons remove literally half the gameplay from a CCG. Setting up a deck is just as much part of the experience as actually playing it, and in some aspects, the far more demanding of it. I can't really see them doing that. It would remove a sense of progression from the PvE gameplay as I'd expect people to not only identify with their avatar, but also their deck. Making it so the rewards you get out of a raid can't be used for that raid is dumb, and limiting the rewards to only the precon set up for that particular raid is even worse. From what I understood in that Angry Joe show, the Squirrels vs Dinosaurs arena dungeon pretty much starts you off with a precon, but lets you add cards that you earn from the dungeon itself as you progress. Also, during the stream they talked about "Legendary Mode" for the dungeons that forces you to play with a deck where you have a limit of ONE per card rather than the usual four (?). But I agree that, across the board, I don't think precons are a good way to limit skill.
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Jun 4, 2013 07:04
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Zurai posted:But keep in mind that raids don't have to even pretend to play fair. They can start with a card in play that says "I can't lose until XYZ conditions", for example. Sure you might be able to set up some crazy 1000-damage 2nd turn combo, it doesn't matter if the raid is immune to damage until you remove an Invincible creature and two enchantments from the board. All of those I'd count as "mechanics to block combos". It doesn't have to be "Can't use combos, ever."
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Jun 4, 2013 07:04
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Karnegal posted:I'm not sure how this doesn't make people with raid leader want to do their raiding with other raider leaders. I don't think it's a huge idea unless it were allowed in a competitive setting, but I'm a little perplexed by the decision to let them stack in the abstract. It'll probably be a thing in the beginning, but there aren't a ton of Raid Leaders out there so it's not like there is the option to sit and wait for one. Eventually people will just want to play with their friends, and a cooldown would incentivize raid leaders to min/max their raiding. But since there isn't a cooldown, there isn't the pressure to maximize 3 raid leaders. Additionally, if people wanted to be a raid leader right now instead of a DC, Collector, or PP, they could switch today.
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Jun 4, 2013 07:21
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Noticed someone swapped off of Pro Player for the first time since I've started checking but I was too slow to snag their spot. 
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Jun 4, 2013 07:55
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Blinkman987 posted:It'll probably be a thing in the beginning, but there aren't a ton of Raid Leaders out there so it's not like there is the option to sit and wait for one. Eventually people will just want to play with their friends, and a cooldown would incentivize raid leaders to min/max their raiding. But since there isn't a cooldown, there isn't the pressure to maximize 3 raid leaders. Additionally, if people wanted to be a raid leader right now instead of a DC, Collector, or PP, they could switch today. DC gets more loot and gold and 20x equipment seems strong. Raid gets one card and a little other stuff the extra drops seem stronger long term.
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Jun 4, 2013 07:56
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I wonder, if you check a deck into the Guild Bank and it contains a card like Spectral Lotus - would playing that card actually use it up? Would make it hard to test decks that contain them if it did, and you can only play that deck against other Guild members anyway Edit: I additionally wonder if we will be getting multiple copies of the Equipment for the Kickstarter reward cards; if a Collector tier gets 3 copies of Replicator's Gambit do they also get 3 copies of The Mirrorblade? Grim fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 09:19
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BenRGamer posted:Eh, it's a nice bonus, but by no means necessary. +3 starting hand size is all well and good, but if you can't use them on the first turn you have to discard 'em. It doesn't increase hand size. Or you can redraw your opening hand 3 times with essentially no penalty. It's a crazy advantage.
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Jun 4, 2013 11:49
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Grim posted:I wonder, if you check a deck into the Guild Bank and it contains a card like Spectral Lotus - would playing that card actually use it up? Would make it hard to test decks that contain them if it did, and you can only play that deck against other Guild members anyway Equipment is something you equip on your champion, not the card. For example, if two cards have a piece of equipment that goes in the gloves slot, you have to choose one and not the other. So you don't need more than one of any equipment.
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Jun 4, 2013 11:50
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nerox posted:Or you can redraw your opening hand 3 times with essentially no penalty. It's a crazy advantage. Oh, hadn't even thought of that. Nice. I'm really, really glad I pledged Grand King while I still could. I'm getting slightly paranoid about it now, like I made sure my phone was logged out of kickstarter so I couldn't accidentally pocket-alter my pledge level. Hopefully once we get a goon guild running we'll have a number of GK's for people to group with.
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Jun 4, 2013 12:16
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I can see it being really useful for two-manning raids. We know it's not something Cryptozoic has balanced around - do we know if there's any sort of reward for it? Obviously not exclusive loot, but maybe sleeves or increased loot or something? Also, I'm getting worryingly tempted to add a King to my Grand King...
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Jun 4, 2013 12:20
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Kairos posted:Equipment is something you equip on your champion, not the card. For example, if two cards have a piece of equipment that goes in the gloves slot, you have to choose one and not the other. So you don't need more than one of any equipment. edit: plus I think you smelt down equipment / cards as part of the Crafting system? Grim fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 12:22
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Yesterday was a great day for Hex on the Kickstarter. They will undoubtedly reach 1.8 million through KS alone today bringing them to over 1.9 total with PayPal. I'm looking forward to the reveal of the next stretch goal but I can't help but think they might push the goal amount higher based on just how much was raised yesterday. When they originally announced the extended goals I figured they would be at 1.8, 1.9 and 2 million. Did anyone catch mention of the new extended goals in the Twitch feed yesterday?
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Jun 4, 2013 14:53
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Protip posted:Yesterday was a great day for Hex on the Kickstarter. They will undoubtedly reach 1.8 million through KS alone today bringing them to over 1.9 total with PayPal. I'm looking forward to the reveal of the next stretch goal but I can't help but think they might push the goal amount higher based on just how much was raised yesterday. When they originally announced the extended goals I figured they would be at 1.8, 1.9 and 2 million. Did anyone catch mention of the new extended goals in the Twitch feed yesterday? I think they said there is no more stretch goals.
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Jun 4, 2013 14:58
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Protip posted:Yesterday was a great day for Hex on the Kickstarter. They will undoubtedly reach 1.8 million through KS alone today bringing them to over 1.9 total with PayPal. I'm looking forward to the reveal of the next stretch goal but I can't help but think they might push the goal amount higher based on just how much was raised yesterday. When they originally announced the extended goals I figured they would be at 1.8, 1.9 and 2 million. Did anyone catch mention of the new extended goals in the Twitch feed yesterday? They can't push the extended goals much higher. Yesterday's push was entirely down to a large number of $2500 and $10k tiers being taken up. Even if all of those are legitimate pledges, which they aren't, there aren't enough of them for a push of similar size to occur again.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:00
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njark posted:I think they said there is no more stretch goals. There are still two chests in the graphic. Cory said during the livestream that the next one would be announced in today's update. Kairos fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 15:04
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Grim posted:Yes but you can trade equipment - I'm just trying to tally up what I can expect for the silly amount of money I have pledged, how common will these things be once the rewards start coming in might be useful to know Well, anyone who has those exclusive kickstarter cards also have the equipment for them, so others will have no use for it unless the cards get sold as well.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:08
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Honestly, +1 starting handsize is a much bigger deal than most of the thread realizes. Starting with an extra card is sometimes comparable with going first, which is a gigantic advantage. And yet, in some situations, you'll choose to go second, so you have an extra card over the opponent. That's how huge it is. For clearing content, it wouldn't surprise me if it cut times to at least half, if you had a full group, compared to a group with none. The things it does for deck consistency is disgusting. Not only does it make the actual act of a mulligan better, as you're still drawing tons of cards, but with 3 more cards, the chance that you'll have to take a mulligan in the first place goes down significantly. Add the life and fog from the emblem and they'll either have to balance content around having a raid leader, or see content trivialized if you have one or more. Hard modes and achievements won't be enough of a balancing act, as it'll still have to be content you can complete without a raid leader. If not, every non-raid leader in the game will completely flip. And any other effects they can point to that will close the gap between raid leader and someone without are completely irrelevant, because the raid leader can get those effects as well. I can't believe they actually let the starting hand size bonus stack. The emblem seems much less problematic to let stack.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:12
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It's almost as though this exclusive time-limited advantage is some sort of advantage!!
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Jun 4, 2013 15:28
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Cynic Jester posted:Honestly, +1 starting handsize is a much bigger deal than most of the thread realizes. Starting with an extra card is sometimes comparable with going first, which is a gigantic advantage. And yet, in some situations, you'll choose to go second, so you have an extra card over the opponent. That's how huge it is. It's only for Raids.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:33
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Having +1 card in hand at the start is a large advantage, but it's PVE only and PVE is going to be absolutely bonkers to the point where +1 card in hand is not that big of a deal. At the very least, I'd much rather Dungeon Crawler or Pro Player. The only one I'd really put it above is Guild Master, and only then because you only need one guild leader per guild.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:35
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Raid Leader is a gamble on endgame raid content in this game being comparable to WoW endgame raid content. I really doubt it's going to be, for a few reasons: 1) A "raid" of three people is not a raid of forty. 2) There aren't going to be raid timers and the like limiting access. 3) The real issue though is that PvE is the gateway drug for this game and PvP is the hard stuff, the long-term content. In WoW endgame raid stuff was desirable because that was the endgame. In this game, PvP is the endgame and I expect that's where most of the long-term investment is going to come; for example, I suspect that "Set 2" and "Set 3" and so forth and the PvP block format will be PvP sets -- it would really surprise me if they release parallel PvE sets over time. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'll release more dungeons and raids and so forth, but I expect the lion's share of future investment and "endgame" content developer time to go to the PvP side of things. And that means that the PvE side will be correspondingly less valuable. I mean, what the gently caress, I could be completely wrong, they've got that Blizzard developer on their PvE side, and I'm sure there will be some hardcore guilds trying to be the first to beat the Kraken or whatever. ("Everybody ready your immortal spears!")
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Jun 4, 2013 15:50
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Vincent Valentine posted:Having +1 card in hand at the start is a large advantage, but it's PVE only and PVE is going to be absolutely bonkers to the point where +1 card in hand is not that big of a deal. I'd much rather have Pro Player as well, but that's not really an option any more, so I'm torn between Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader. Have they clarified their language at all in regards to Dungeons and Raids? Are they different things? You'd assume raids would be the activity where you get the super rare stuff, and if Dungeon Crawlers bonus doesn't work there, that might change things. Lone Goat posted:It's almost as though this exclusive time-limited advantage is some sort of advantage!! No poo poo. It isn't as if that was the point of the post. Oh, wait. Raid Leader has consistently been viewed as the least attractive of the 4 options(Well, there's guild leader, but that bonus isn't really worth discussing as most guilds will have it anyway, thanks to grand kings+). I'm not sure that is the case, based on increased hand size stacking.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:50
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Cynic Jester posted:I'd much rather have Pro Player as well, but that's not really an option any more, so I'm torn between Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader. Even if Dungeon Crawler doesn't work in raids it's still going to be the more desirable option. Raid Leader's +1 card size is very clear and you can directly imagine how useful it's going to be. Good, but not spectacular. I mean, there's no cooldown on raids, right? What's stopping you from mulliganing and then forfeiting until you get a good opening hand?
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Jun 4, 2013 15:58
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BenRGamer posted:It's only for Raids. It's for all non-tournament grouped PVE - right now that's only raids, but if they add in e.g. co-op dungeons then it will apply to them too. Honestly I think letting it stack is more a novelty than anything else. There are only going to be 1,200-odd Raid Leaders in the game, they're all spread across different timezones, many of them pledged Grand King or higher and will never be serious raiders, and (statistically) there's going to be some attrition from people quitting the game. Groups of two or three people who are both serious raiders and Raid Leaders aren't going to materialise often, especially given that the "payoff" would be trivialising the raid to the point of boredom. I suspect we'll see a few two-person teams trying to get whatever bonus you get for taking down a raid without a third person, and that's about it. Raid Leader would probably be a must for trying to solo a raid, though. Dungeon Crawler's bonus definitely doesn't apply to raids (although the endgame will contain dungeons as well as raids).
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Jun 4, 2013 15:58
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Personally the reason I'm going for DC over RL is just cause DC I can do by myself from the beginning of the game up to the end. Raids, I dunno when that stuff starts.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:59
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