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Yeah, it's actually pretty loving boring to play in a region, in any game, if that region only has variations on one major type of scenery. Like, I hope the North has a much bigger variety of environments, and the West has some larger islands that can sustain a more complex climate than "You know, the standard island climate." The Directions also don't only need to be differentiated by environment; They can be differentiated by who's there, and, since this is a fictional setting, the themes and types of adventures the area is geared towards.
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Jun 6, 2013 23:08
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Oligopsony posted:To me, Neph's failures are a reason for skepticism more than anything else - from an outside view, I can't think of any two people more qualified to have set the system on solid foundation than he and Jenna, but they hosed it up pretty badly (albeit not in a way that was at all obvious.) The current team is by all accounts competent too; why should I expect them to do better? (Not that I'm unwilling to take a look; far from it!) How was them loving up not incredibly obvious? The day 2e came out there was a thread on rpg.net called something like "you will do nothing but perfect." The first time my players had a fight they did nothing but perfect. The first time we had a social combat it was a boring grind that ended in GM fiat. I stopped playing within a couple months of release, although it took me longer to stop paying money for garbage books. The DB book didn't follow the core rules because they wrote it before they had the system finalized. It was a complete shitshow from day one. I'm hoping they don't screw it up this time, but the lack of a mechanical preview is bothersome. Their stated reasons are pretty lame. You can do a substantial mechanical preview without giving the whole system away. D&D 4e did a pretty good job of this. Nobody is asking for hundreds of charms, just an overview of combat and maybe some other stuff. You even see people arguing about excellencies in this thread but we don't even know if excellencies going to be dice adders with the same caps as in 2e. I remember a while ago someone (Holden?) mentioning how toxic the Pathfinder beta was (and wanting to avoid that) but this is a really different situation. Pathfinder was a game where reactionary grognards jumped ship to a new company to prevent meaningful mechanical change but Exalted is a game where people are begging for a new edition to fix the mechanical stuff. The feedback they got from that Solar xp preview already had hatewheel re-thinking some things. Feedback is useful! I've also heard that we should feel secure backing the game because the current staff has put out "multiple five-star books" and if anyone actually knows what those are I'd like to find out because the only mechanical content I've seen is errata. I just hope they are holding off on a mechanics preview until they charge peoples' cards. It would be absurd to know nothing up until release. Also maybe the could use some of the kickstarter money to have a PR intern filter out their offensive content and passive-aggressive tone. They could even use the dollar I gave them!
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Jun 6, 2013 23:41
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cenotaph posted:I've also heard that we should feel secure backing the game because the current staff has put out "multiple five-star books" and if anyone actually knows what those are I'd like to find out because the only mechanical content I've seen is errata. I agree with you, but wanted to respond to your questions regarding books. Shards of the Exalted Dream is, in my opinion, one of the best books Exalted has ever seen, giving info on how to use the core concepts and themes within Exalted in four different settings, providing an entirely new mini-rpg about kung fu battling, charms related to the modern era, rules hacks that improve multiple splats, four awesome settings, baller new artifacts, et cetera, et cetera. Holden worked on Alchemicals, which, mechanically, were probably the best-functioning splat in all of 2e, and definitely had some cool stuff in it as well. Glories of the Most High was written by John and Holden, and it had some great charms, martial arts, and fluff interspersed with some not-so-great things, particularly in the Luna portion. It still sold really well, or so I hear. There's also CotD: Autocthonia, which was released episodically; I don't know much about it, but I hear it was quite popular and would definitely check it out before running an Alchemical game. The final book was Masters of Jade, which was an awesome thing about the Guild which a great subsystem for running organizations in general. One or both of the current developers have author credits on all of these books, and almost certainly others I've forgotten, so they've done a lot of things besides errata. On the matter of offensive content, I think there's a bit of an elephant in the room in that, in comparison to D&D or Pathfinder, there are almost certainly a greater percentage of Exalted players who use it for Animes/Furries loving Each Other. Holden and Plague of Hats have pretty much stated that they find these people creepy, appalling, and basically  . I wonder if, post-Kickstarter, there will ever be a concerted effort to purge Exalted of those people and tell them:THIS IS GAME: NOT FOR PERVERT  NOT FOR FURRY  NOT FOR PAEDORAPIST  NOT FOR BRONY  THIS IS RAW, CONAN EPIC FANTASY.  Toxic customers like that being out there give people the wrong impression about Exalted way more than Fred Ogreguy or whatever his name is ever could.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:08
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:
No Milton, I think that instead we've managed to become paedropist bronies by association. 
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Jun 7, 2013 00:13
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Ferrinus posted:Your blindness shouldn't be Exalted's problem. Still, the fact that I was blind to that does mean that it's easier for me to see the whole thing as a sordid mistake. First in terms of content, and then in communication / strategy with Rich Thomas, who is in charge of the Kickstarter project and was adamant about putting the not-apology update—apparently in the belief that it would help and clear up a misunderstanding. Fuckups in writing and chain of command are something I understand, and given they're for a bare-bones preview that no one will game with, can easily forgive so long as they're fixed in the actual product. A "we won't include anything like that in the book" would be great. An "I'm sorry we subjected you to that half-page of text" feels unnecessary. "lulz, a rape joke. Also, you guys are worse than the Lunar fans" was uncalled for and annoys me.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:22
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Lymond posted:I agree. I didn't read rape in the Charm preview, but I do sympathize with those who did. I don't want to see those things in print any more than you do. Yeah, I'm sorry, I think I came off too harsh there - I agreed with the rest of your post. It's just amazing how many people squint at the preview for a second, shrug impassively, and then turn around to explain how important it is that Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations should be the top of a twenty-charm cascade or else Exalted isn't truly for mature roleplayers.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:28
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With 40 hours left to go, I don't think I can hold out any longer on waiting for some kind of word on how the actual system is going to work. I really like how the book sounds (like, it sounds like it will be pretty), but given that they have told us basically nothing about what will be in besides a few art snippets (I mean, seriously, we had like three or four content previews and none of them were content for the book being backed?) I just can't go through with it. Oh well.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:36
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Lymond posted:I agree. I didn't read rape in the Charm preview, but I do sympathize with those who did. I don't want to see those things in print any more than you do. Yeah, it's highly unlikely that they're trying to sneak in some sort of secret rapeghost agenda into this game. Nor is it very likely that the charms will be kept as is in the final book, given the amount of times they've already told us: "the charms will not be kept as is." Which may or may not be a lie. I don't know, is there any reason to continue to talk about how disingenuous they are in this thread, when the only possible way to prove whether they are or aren't is to have them write up Abyssals and then send us the entire copy? I don't think he was really saying "you guys are worse than Lunar fans" though? He was saying that the magnitude of the response was bigger and more negative than the ones by lunar fans. I still don't think a forthright, complete apology will be taken as anything other than an attempt at PR management either, so it's best not to say anything. Ferrinus posted:Yeah, I'm sorry, I think I came off too harsh there - I agreed with the rest of your post. It's just amazing how many people squint at the preview for a second, shrug impassively, and then turn around to explain how important it is that Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations should be the top of a twenty-charm cascade or else Exalted isn't truly for mature roleplayers. I don't think that anyone who chooses to back the Kickstart, or otherwise, ought to be held personally accountable for toxic fans. I also don't think we've made much of a case against toxic fans, given that most people who aren't have decided to write off the game as rape central. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 00:41
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I agree with you, but wanted to respond to your questions regarding books. Shards of the Exalted Dream is, in my opinion, one of the best books Exalted has ever seen, giving info on how to use the core concepts and themes within Exalted in four different settings, providing an entirely new mini-rpg about kung fu battling, charms related to the modern era, rules hacks that improve multiple splats, four awesome settings, baller new artifacts, et cetera, et cetera. Holden worked on Alchemicals, which, mechanically, were probably the best-functioning splat in all of 2e, and definitely had some cool stuff in it as well. Glories of the Most High was written by John and Holden, and it had some great charms, martial arts, and fluff interspersed with some not-so-great things, particularly in the Luna portion. It still sold really well, or so I hear. I'll have to take a second look at some of that. I've mostly been skimming stuff for the past few years since I read Infernals. Everything about that book pissed me off so much I would have burned it but I had the pdf. I didn't like Glories much, had no interest in the alternate settings book and I don't care for Alchemicals as a splat. I think I can look at them a bit more objectively now than I could when they were released. Generally I didn't like much of what I saw and I didn't feel like it was worth writing crunch for a system that was still fundamentally broken but I'll have another look. edit: Honestly I forgot that I had read some of that mechanical content but showing that you can jump through hoops to write non-horrible content for a broken system doesn't tell me anything about their ability to create a full fledged system from the ground up. MiltonSlavemasta posted:Holden and Plague of Hats have pretty much stated that they find these people creepy, appalling, and basically cenotaph fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 00:43
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cenotaph posted:They say they want to swear it off and then they preview the Abyssal charms. Not helping my lack of optimism. I'm curious, do you feel that when Holden said "Sure-- I said last time I was here that we put these things together to entertain, not to cause people upset or anguish, and it'd be dumb to just stick verbatim to a design note that clearly caused a lot of people a lot of distress" that he was being a manipulative puppetmaster? I can't fault you for feeling that there's no guarantee the mechanics are going to be good, but saying that they're just pretending to be socially conscious and attempting to appeal to fans who like rape, is just too hyperbolic. And just a mandatory edit, yeah, I still feel that the original charms draft was bad and that there should be more attempts to oppose rape culture in games, especially from Exalted/White Wofl.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:51
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Bedlamdan posted:I don't think that anyone who chooses to back the Kickstart, or otherwise, ought to be held personally accountable for toxic fans. I also don't think we've made much of a case against toxic fans, given that most people who aren't have decided to write off the game as rape central. I can't agree with that. People are fine with calling out toxic behavior, but the minute they are asked to make even the smallest sacrifice to provide real incentive for the devs to stop pandering to the creepers they balk. Basically, put your money where your mouth is or shut up. I'm tired of people who are all talk in terms of trying to make this hobby less of a cesspool. EDIT: Bedlamdan posted:I'm curious, do you feel that when Holden said "Sure-- I said last time I was here that we put these things together to entertain, not to cause people upset or anguish, and it'd be dumb to just stick verbatim to a design note that clearly caused a lot of people a lot of distress" that he was being a manipulative puppetmaster? People felt it was manipulative because while Holden said that here, the next day on the official kickstarter they doubled down on creepy rape BS. So it seemed a pretty clear case of him lying to appease the more progressive set while continuing the purile pandering. Valhawk fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 00:57
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Valhawk posted:People felt it was manipulative because while Holden said that here, the next day on the official kickstarter they doubled down on creepy rape BS. So it seemed a pretty clear case of him lying to appease the more progressive set while continuing the purile pandering. Oh, but that was said after the clarification posting on the KS, and made after the "doubling down" as opposed to before it. As for the second sentence: so you agree that any attempt by the devs to show that they don't want the game to be like 2E will just be taken as a web of lies spun to get people to buy a game that panders to creeps?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:02
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Bedlamdan posted:Oh, but that was said after the clarification posting on the KS, and made after the "doubling down" as opposed to before it. As for the second sentence: so you agree that any attempt by the devs to show that they don't want the game to be like 2E will just be taken as a web of lies spun to get people to buy a game that panders to creeps?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:05
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Bedlamdan posted:Oh, but that was said after the clarification posting on the KS, and made after the "doubling down" as opposed to before it. As for the second sentence: so you agree that any attempt by the devs to show that they don't want the game to be like 2E will just be taken as a web of lies spun to get people to buy a game that panders to creeps? Hmmm... I had apparently confused that line with one Holden did do before the "clarification" which seemed to simmer down the forum until the whole thing started up again the next day, and everyone felt lied to. Basically, I'd be more likely to believe them if they straight up apologized, and made assurances that they weren't going to be doing this puerile poo poo on the actual kickstarter in front of god and everyone, and not just on our paywalled forum where none of the creepers will see it.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:06
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Heart Attacks posted:It would be much nicer if they'd stop saying it won't be and start showing some content that proves otherwise. And then we keep going back to what I've been saying: there's no way to show this until they crack open the Abyssals preview and we run over it to see that there's nothing problematic. Until the Abyssals book is done, of course it's going to be all talk, because that's all they can do! Heart Attacks posted:Basically, I'd be more likely to believe them if they straight up apologized, and made assurances that they weren't going to be doing this puerile poo poo on the actual kickstarter in front of god and everyone, and not just on our paywalled forum where none of the creepers will see it. And when all they can say is that they'll do that, that won't be taken as sincere. As for the paywall thing, people have been reposting what Holden's been saying here on places like rpg.net all the time. Everyone knows what's up, which is why you have creeps on White Wolf forums defending the rough draft charm design. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 01:06
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Bedlamdan posted:And then we keep going back to what I've been saying: there's no way to show this until they crack open the Abyssals preview and we run over it to see that there's nothing problematic. Until the Abyssals book is done, of course it's going to be all talk, because that's all they can do!
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Jun 7, 2013 01:10
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Valhawk posted:I can't agree with that. People are fine with calling out toxic behavior, but the minute they are asked to make even the smallest sacrifice to provide real incentive for the devs to stop pandering to the creepers they balk. Holden also conducted all real discussions of the issue in private discussions, used an RPGnet poster as a gatekeeper to keep away anyone with criticisms, lied to some people and offered different versions of the story and how apologetic they were depending on who he was talking to. Even if you ignore what was said in those private discussions or don't want to take someone's word for them, doing everything in private and relying on someone else to handle the flak is manipulative and awful. Bedlamdan why did you turn into the XboxPants of Exalted? Bedlamdan posted:As for the paywall thing, people have been reposting what Holden's been saying here on places like rpg.net all the time. Everyone knows what's up, which is why you have creeps on White Wolf forums defending the rough draft charm design. This isn't true at all - a huge part of the issue is that so much of this has been kept secret or paywalled or under wraps that even people who agree with how awful this is don't know what's going on. The Onyx Path freelancers who had concerns had no idea what was actually being said and how deep this went until someone relayed it to them.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:11
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Bedlamdan posted:And when all they can say is that they'll do that, that won't be taken as sincere. As for the paywall thing, people have been reposting what Holden's been saying here on places like rpg.net all the time. Everyone knows what's up, which is why you have creeps on White Wolf forums defending the rough draft charm design. That's not true. When they implied they'd do that here, they were taken as sincere. When the "These apparitions are not for rape. They are for haunting, and seduction." disclaimer came out a day later, that was taken as sincere - but it's confused because apparently it was some kind of rush PR mandated by Rich Thomas who hasn't actually been handling any of the talking-to-the-public stuff. Holden came back here and clearly understood the problms with the Lover charm tree as presented, although he was recalcitrant about getting rid of sex magic as a general thing (but sounded like he was convinced or at least given pause by a big post Milton wrote on the matter). If they were to show up and say "Yo, we hear you, and we're not going to weigh the Abyssals book down with sex magic", there's no reason they wouldn't be taken as sincere, because in general they haven't been sneakily presenting different faces to different slices of their audience. They've just been clamming up completely on this subject, which sends a single and obvious message.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:15
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Heart Attacks posted:They haven't shown us essentially any other content at all. What do we have? Like, two Solar Charms, Solar XP, Abyssal Armor Charms, and the Abyssal Rape Tree, with the Abyssal Rape Tree being the largest portion of any revealed content to date. What was explicitly rapey in all the other previews they sent out? And they did send out a lot more than that, we got a hell of a lot more spoiler information than one charm tree they are doing their damnedest to backpedal from. Was there really anything nearly as problematic in the Infernal charms that were previewed? How did the Liminals preview relate to rape culture? I don't think I ought to make this a hill to die on, and I don't want it to sound like I'm defending this charms draft. But it's still silly to attribute a malevolent agenda to a gently caress-up they acknowledged. Mikan posted:Bedlamdan why did you turn into the XboxPants of Exalted?  I don't want to be taken as a rape apologist or someone who promotes skeevy poo poo. I'll stop arguing this point.
Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 01:17
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The "doubling down" was someone else. Holden basically said that he couldn't control what his boss decided to do: it sounds like a classic command chain mistake. I don't know him or John so I can't speak about their motivations, but I don't remember them ever stressing sexual abuse in their work, and I don't see why they would ever want to double down on this. If anything, I expect them to be pretty careful in their approach to Abyssal Charms after this whole ordeal. I'm inclined to be charitable until they seal stuff like this into an actual product. I take the "we don't want to cause anguish with this stuff" quote at face value.
Lymond fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 01:18
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Bedlamdan posted:I'm curious, do you feel that when Holden said "Sure-- I said last time I was here that we put these things together to entertain, not to cause people upset or anguish, and it'd be dumb to just stick verbatim to a design note that clearly caused a lot of people a lot of distress" that he was being a manipulative puppetmaster? I am in no way saying that they're misleading us or appealing to rape enthusiasts. I'm just saying they didn't have the sense to realize the implications of the charms when they published them. It can be hard to step back and look at something objectively or even from a different perspective when you're deep in the creative process. I was only being partly sarcastic with my PR intern joke. They could really use someone to say "no, don't say that" before they put their foot in their mouth again. Presumably hatewheel, as the development lead, would be responsible for this but so far it hasn't worked. I guess you thought I attributed it to malice but I'm attributing it to incompetence.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:26
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Bedlamdan posted:What was explicitly rapey in all the other previews they sent out? And they did send out a lot more than that, we got a hell of a lot more spoiler information than one charm tree they are doing their damnedest to backpedal from. Was there really anything nearly as problematic in the Infernal charms that were previewed? How did the Liminals preview relate to rape culture? The liminals preview, like the Infernals preview, like everything else, was fluff; the Abyssals preview is the biggest portion of mechanics we've gotten. The biggest suggestion of things that will actually be placed into the players hands was "rape ghosts, everywhere!"
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Jun 7, 2013 01:27
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Valhawk posted:Basically, I'd be more likely to believe them if they straight up apologized, and made assurances that they weren't going to be doing this puerile poo poo on the actual kickstarter in front of god and everyone, and not just on our paywalled forum where none of the creepers will see it. Yeah, I would much rather see them make a public statement to that effect, stating "What was previewed and found objectionable by many was ill-thought-out and correctly identified as offensive, and no such material will be in any published 3e product." than for them to send someone here to pacify us. It would, as the pervert element have gone on the record of grognards.txt stating, anger the pervert element and therefore actually be them going out on a limb to improve the hobby. The only really public and readily-observable statement on the matter for your average backer was "Some people misunderstood our intentions with the charms" which is, for me, insufficient. That said, I really feel for everyone at Onyx Path and especially on the Exalted team who had nothing to do with that or who want nothing to do with that sort of thing. Only three people are even credited on the objectionable preview material, and I don't know how many of them actually wanted it to be released to the public or felt they were in a position to object. It is why my final pledge amount is not $0, though also not as high as it could have been. cenotaph posted:
Considering Hatewheel wrote the charms in the first place, there are at least a couple cognitive biases that psychologists might identify as to why oversight did not occur.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:28
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Heart Attacks posted:The liminals preview, like the Infernals preview, like everything else, was fluff; the Abyssals preview is the biggest portion of mechanics we've gotten. The biggest suggestion of things that will actually be placed into the players hands was "rape ghosts, everywhere!" I don't think I ought to dig myself deeper into this argument: again, I absolutely understand people who consider the Abyssal charms preview in and of itself to be a dealbreaker, even if I am not entirely on the same page and more willing to attribute their decisions as mistakes rather than a secret plan to pander specifically to creepy Steve. That said, I would like to point out the statement you made is inaccurate. There was a mechanics preview in Infernals, and they previewed the Adorjan Charm tree in a similar manner to the two Abyssal trees. Additionally, the first Abyssals charm tree, the First and Forsaken Lion one, was previewed sometime in 2012. MiltonSlavemasta posted:Yeah, I would much rather see them make a public statement to that effect, stating "What was previewed and found objectionable by many was ill-thought-out and correctly identified as offensive, and no such material will be in any published 3e product." than for them to send someone here to pacify us. It would, as the pervert element have gone on the record of grognards.txt stating, anger the pervert element and therefore actually be them going out on a limb to improve the hobby. The only really public and readily-observable statement on the matter for your average backer was "Some people misunderstood our intentions with the charms" which is, for me, insufficient. They did acknowledge it was offensive, but I really think Ferrinus is on the right page in that they still want sex to be a thematic element for charms, even though they don't want them to be rape-incarnate.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:35
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Bedlamdan posted:That said, I would like to point out the statement you made is inaccurate. There was a mechanics preview in Infernals, and they previewed the Adorjan Charm tree in a similar manner to the two Abyssal trees. Additionally, the first Abyssals charm tree, the First and Forsaken Lion one, was previewed sometime in 2012. Christ, are you this kind of guy? Sharp inhale, shove the glasses up your nose, AKSHULLY? me posted:They haven't shown us essentially any other content at all. What do we have? Like, two Solar Charms, Solar XP, Abyssal Armor Charms, and the Abyssal Rape Tree, with the Abyssal Rape Tree being the largest portion of any revealed content to date. It remains the case that the Abyssal rape tree is the single largest block of content we've received, it was displayed prominently (ght after Naked and Deplorable, the Pathetic Signature Slayer whose theme seems to be following the theme started by the Lady of Darkness, which is "Slutty women Exalted are scornworthy people!" Yeah, okay, we only saw the picture in the actual preview, but the followup where her theme is "lovely person" didn't really help. Maybe I am not being charitable to them, but I do not think they are doing a lot to make it hard to be uncharitable.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:47
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Holden rightly points out on the White Wolf forums that tabletop RPG powers that use sex as the vector for a game-mechanical bonus rather than a game-mechanical attack are still skeevily coercive, since, gosh, I guess the only way for you to be cured of your fatal poisoning is for you to have sex with me, what are the odds of that, well I suppose there's nothing we can do, etc. When "kill someone by loving them" and "buff someone by loving them" are both off the table, all you've got left are, like, mechanical representations of how good your character is in bed, and who exactly needs that? Don't we literally have a long post by Holden or John or someone explaining precisely why the game shouldn't be going to great lengths to mechanically track how strongly you follow your stated sexual orientation or whatever?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:47
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Ferrinus posted:When "kill someone by loving them" and "buff someone by loving them" are both off the table, all you've got left are, like, mechanical representations of how good your character is in bed, and who exactly needs that? Don't we literally have a long post by Holden or John or someone explaining precisely why the game shouldn't be going to great lengths to mechanically track how strongly you follow your stated sexual orientation or whatever? Was it a problem when sex was just something you did with a Performance roll (or would have been, except Exalted 2e was awesome and by-the-book that only works if you've got an audience, nevermind that) and you could just slap general Performance-enhancing Charms on it?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:49
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Heart Attacks posted:Christ, are you this kind of guy? Sharp inhale, shove the glasses up your nose, AKSHULLY? You pointed out that there were no other charms previews. I pointed out another charms preview. I'm sorry that was too loving pedantic, buddy!  Ferrinus posted:Holden rightly points out on the White Wolf forums that tabletop RPG powers that use sex as the vector for a game-mechanical bonus rather than a game-mechanical attack are still skeevily coercive, since, gosh, I guess the only way for you to be cured of your fatal poisoning is for you to have sex with me, what are the odds of that, well I suppose there's nothing we can do, etc. When did he point that out? Was this before or after this whole thing?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:50
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I agree with you, but wanted to respond to your questions regarding books. Shards of the Exalted Dream is, in my opinion, one of the best books Exalted has ever seen, giving info on how to use the core concepts and themes within Exalted in four different settings, providing an entirely new mini-rpg about kung fu battling, charms related to the modern era, rules hacks that improve multiple splats, four awesome settings, baller new artifacts, et cetera, et cetera. Holden worked on Alchemicals, which, mechanically, were probably the best-functioning splat in all of 2e, and definitely had some cool stuff in it as well. Glories of the Most High was written by John and Holden, and it had some great charms, martial arts, and fluff interspersed with some not-so-great things, particularly in the Luna portion. It still sold really well, or so I hear. My biggest concern is how good they are at dealing with feedback. Playtesting is going to be crucial for their new combat engine, and Holden and John haven't dealt with criticism too well so far. I'm not just referring to the Abyssal preview: back in the day, Holden's reaction to criticism for Cobra Style (which was seriously broken) was along the lines of "I'm disappointed that all you people want Martial Arts to suck", and more recently it's been "people were being hysterical, it's not so bad".
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Jun 7, 2013 01:51
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Bedlamdan posted:When did he point that out? Was this before or after this whole thing? http://nishkriya.theanathema.com/Threads/Details/77703
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Jun 7, 2013 01:56
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Ferrinus posted:Holden rightly points out on the White Wolf forums that tabletop RPG powers that use sex as the vector for a game-mechanical bonus rather than a game-mechanical attack are still skeevily coercive, since, gosh, I guess the only way for you to be cured of your fatal poisoning is for you to have sex with me, what are the odds of that, well I suppose there's nothing we can do, etc. I agree. It works in Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts, but those aren't games where mechanical advantages are nearly as sought-after as in Exalted, and they're a specific cordoned-off section of the rules than can be detached. In Exalted, even if you write your sidebar, you're throwing them in the pot with everything else. [quote="Lymond"] Lymond posted:My biggest concern is how good they are at dealing with feedback. Playtesting is going to be crucial for their new combat engine, and Holden and John haven't dealt with criticism too well so far. I'm not just referring to the Abyssal preview: back in the day, Holden's reaction to criticism for Cobra Style (which was seriously broken) was along the lines of "I'm disappointed that all you people want Martial Arts to suck", and more recently it's been "people were being hysterical, it's not so bad". So far, they seem to be too defensive, for sure, I completely agree, but I'm sympathetic to his retrospective on Cobra Style, as while it's busted, I think it does a lot of cool things and could be reworked into something awesome. It has the best intro charm of any 2e MA, for one. And, yeah, while the 2.5 update is unfinished, I don't know that I'd call it a mess for any reasons other than that it's built on a foundation of 2e, and that it's not like anyone was paying them to errata all the things too busted to fix. MiltonSlavemasta fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 01:57
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I have no idea what to make of this. Is he continuing with sex as a theme? Did we change his mind? Is he implying that negative sexual connotations are more thematically appropriate than positive ones?
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Jun 7, 2013 02:02
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I agree. It works in Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts, but those aren't games where mechanical advantages are nearly as sought-after as in Exalted, and they're a specific cordoned-off section of the rules than can be detached. In Exalted, even if you write your sidebar, you're throwing them in the pot with everything else. I was just going to mention those games on the White Wolf forums when a mod there yelled at me, actually. Monsterhearts is a game about high school interpersonal drama, so no duh it'll have something in the rules about two characters hooking up (and, as you say, that stuff's modular in case you want to play PG-rated Monsterhearts). Exalted is a pulp fantasy adventure game. Now, it's one of Exalted's strengths that the same setting and system can handle loads of different genres (for instance, you can run a Dilbert-themed game using the Mountain Folk chapter of Fair Folk), so in principle some kind of sexy soap opera Exalted supplement could come out featuring Really Great Blow Job Prana or something, but the corebook of a major character type?
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Jun 7, 2013 02:05
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Ferrinus posted:Now, it's one of Exalted's strengths that the same setting and system can handle loads of different genres (for instance, you can run a Dilbert-themed game using the Mountain Folk chapter of Fair Folk), so in principle some kind of sexy soap opera Exalted supplement could come out featuring Really Great Blow Job Prana or something, but the corebook of a major character type? The sex can be a trophy, or a transgression, or a factor in creating or destroying a relationship -- all while happening off-camera, without any special Charms being written up about it. (If someone is able to make an explicit sex description interesting and non-creepy, they will win my raised eyebrows and my praise in the form of me saying, "Wow, that was impressively non-creepy!", and they'll get a two-die Stunt bonus.)
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Jun 7, 2013 02:14
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:And, yeah, while the 2.5 update is unfinished, I don't know that I'd call it a mess for any reasons other than that it's built on a foundation of 2e, and that it's not like anyone was paying them to errata all the things too busted to fix.
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Jun 7, 2013 02:24
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As far as mechanics previews go, it seems pretty obvious to me that there are no mechanics previews because the book isn't done yet. I mean, it's not really even a secret, so I don't know why people aren't jumping to what seems to me to be the obvious conclusion—that Holden and hatewheel have no intention of showing anybody anything that could be criticized until the whole rules draft is ready to be sent to the playtesters.
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Jun 7, 2013 02:47
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That's all the more reason not to back the kickstarter and wait for the book to come out, really. (It's also kinda weird when they have previewed things that could be criticized, especially since they are devoid of context.) On top of that, they don't need to show us all the rules - but they could show us the foundations, the things they're building on, some kind of reason to believe the promises. Then again they don't really need to because people are cool with funding hype and no substance, they're gonna make a ton of money either way. Mikan fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 02:50
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Mikan posted:That's all the more reason not to back the kickstarter and wait for the book to come out, really. (It's also kinda weird when they have previewed things that could be criticized, especially since they are devoid of context.) I've got faith in their ability to produce decent mechanics from the earlier work put out by the writers, so backing the kickstarter was worth it to me. YMMV.
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Jun 7, 2013 02:52
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An example of combat, that Legionnaire of Silence vs. One Hundred Bandits battle they were talking about before, all of the Tyrant Lizard vs. Heroic Mortal battles they were talking up, they could bash together anything they wanted to give a mechanical preview, with the huge "This Is An Unfinished Draft" tag on it all. There's no excuse for barely no actual mechanics to be put out by now, especially since they specifically spoke (pre-kickstarter) of wanting backers to know a lot about the product they were backing before the kickstarter was over. We should not have to piece together whether Ex3 has the mechanical rigor they keep saying it will, with spit and bubblegum, out of the small snippets of actual information they deign to release.
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Jun 7, 2013 02:55
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Kenlon posted:I've got faith in their ability to produce decent mechanics from the earlier work put out by the writers, so backing the kickstarter was worth it to me. YMMV. They put out some cool (and not-so-cool) houserules for an existing product. That's one thing, creating a new system is another.
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Jun 7, 2013 02:56
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