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cheetah7071 posted:Fixing at common can mess with limited environments too much. Figured it would. 
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Jun 14, 2013 01:54
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cheetah7071 posted:Fixing at common can mess with limited environments too much. Magic has plenty of fixing at common, it's usually just not the good fixing. I'm not a huge limited player though, are formats with common fixing less fun to draft?
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Jun 14, 2013 02:01
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Bobbin Threadbear posted:If Cryptozoic is genuine in their fan-first stance, it seems like they would opt to make it common. Buying expensive mana cards doesn't seem fun. The one extant example of a non-basic resource is rare.
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Jun 14, 2013 02:06
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Consider that the part anyone cares about isn't the rarity stamp, it's how onerous it is to get something. Drowned Catacomb and Underground Sea are both "rare." It's trivial in principle to create a game where cards are "rare" coming out of booster packs yet are reasonably easy to acquire for constructed, and one hopes Cryptozoic will learn from others' pasts in that regard.
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Jun 14, 2013 02:17
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OBi posted:Magic has plenty of fixing at common, it's usually just not the good fixing. I'm not a huge limited player though, are formats with common fixing less fun to draft? Formats where 5CC (5 colour control) is the best deck are boring because you just take fixing and the best card in the pack regardless of colour.
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Jun 14, 2013 02:52
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Man, something I really hadn't thought about before, but it just struck me that a major factor in being able to win a draft is knowing the set you're drafting inside and out so you can sort of bet on certain types of cards being in packs at various rarities. I think I'm going to stink at drafting just because I am really bad at memorizing 300 cards including their rarities.
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Jun 14, 2013 02:54
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signalnoise posted:Man, something I really hadn't thought about before, but it just struck me that a major factor in being able to win a draft is knowing the set you're drafting inside and out so you can sort of bet on certain types of cards being in packs at various rarities. I think I'm going to stink at drafting just because I am really bad at memorizing 300 cards including their rarities. I'm very good at memorizing cards and knowing the sets, because I put a lot of stock into constructed format tournaments and I brainstorm new decks pretty constantly. I am terrible at drafting. Just awful. I have never been good at it, and I never will be. The entire reason I draft is to get 45 cards and maybe have a theme between them to work with later and get drunk and gently caress around with my friends.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:01
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signalnoise posted:Man, something I really hadn't thought about before, but it just struck me that a major factor in being able to win a draft is knowing the set you're drafting inside and out so you can sort of bet on certain types of cards being in packs at various rarities. I think I'm going to stink at drafting just because I am really bad at memorizing 300 cards including their rarities. This was literally me when I tried MTGO online. I knew how to play magic from like 15 years ago, but trying to draft when you don't know the current cards or current deck trends is pretty frustrating. That's also kind of why i'm excited about Hex though because we all start on the same foot. I'll probably still prefer constructed though just because I love making decks and testing them out. Speaking of legendaries, what's the general consensus on how many to include when you are playing with a 60 card deck? Or does it really just depend on the card? I always used 4 if it was something important to the deck and I know that rule that they cancel each other out if there are 2 on the board, but some previous comments imply that might not be standard practice to include 4.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:12
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signalnoise posted:Man, something I really hadn't thought about before, but it just struck me that a major factor in being able to win a draft is knowing the set you're drafting inside and out so you can sort of bet on certain types of cards being in packs at various rarities. I think I'm going to stink at drafting just because I am really bad at memorizing 300 cards including their rarities. You don't need to memorize all 300 cards. You only need at least know what the good ones are, or learn how to evaluate the cards on the fly. Knowing the Commons is the most important thing since you'll see them the most, followed by Uncommon, and so on. I try to get a handle on the removal spells and combat tricks of a set, because that will let me know what my opponent will be able to cast at any time. Drafting takes practice, but it's a blast. Hopefully they'll have the Swiss option like on MTGO so you can get maximum playing time for your money if you choose.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:14
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Pinwiz11 posted:You don't need to memorize all 300 cards. You only need at least know what the good ones are, or learn how to evaluate the cards on the fly. Knowing the Commons is the most important thing since you'll see them the most, followed by Uncommon, and so on. I try to get a handle on the removal spells and combat tricks of a set, because that will let me know what my opponent will be able to cast at any time. http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/
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Jun 14, 2013 03:20
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I think to be fair at least with the first set you'll have a lot of practice (what with so many boosters floating around) to draft, heck I'm sure if people wanted we could do goon draft leagues with breakdowns of why X or Y was a good pick to help learn drafting strategy afterwards.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:21
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More importantly, during alpha we'll have free drafting. Perfect time to learn how to play.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:23
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Bobbin Threadbear posted:They have comp draft, casual draft and swiss draft. Oh hey they're looking to organize 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments. 2v2 constructed tournaments loving rule i'm really excited for that.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:39
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Vincent Valentine posted:Oh hey they're looking to organize 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments. 2v2 constructed tournaments loving rule i'm really excited for that. They won't be in at launch, but 2v2 and the like is something they're working on, the engine can easily handle it, though. From what they've said, the main hurdle is the wait between turns, they want to make large games fun and they think you can't do that when over half the time is spent waiting.
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Jun 14, 2013 03:57
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BenRGamer posted:they want to make large games fun and they think you can't do that when over half the time is spent waiting. This is what I'd worry about too. I can't really say so because I haven't played yet, but it seems like games move at a quicker pace compared to it's older brother. 2v2 doesn't seem like it would bog down really bad but I can see a format like 3 headed giant taking forever.
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Jun 14, 2013 05:49
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I think the problem with larger games is that with a paper TCG, you can shortcut some irrelevant or repetitive steps, such as tapping and untapping things repeatedly for some sort of bonus. In a paper game, you can just say "I do this 50 times.", but that kind of thing is difficult in a digital game, which could make large games something of a drag at times.
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Jun 14, 2013 06:48
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It makes me wonder if they're going to allow automation of some looping effects. For example, if I become able to permanently sac and bring back a card for one damage by a four step process, will I be able to say "do X, sac Y, bring back X and Y, 1 damage to you, loop", or am I just gonna have to manually click it the whole time? I asked that to them via kickstarter but they never got back to me.
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Jun 14, 2013 13:13
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Go RV! posted:It makes me wonder if they're going to allow automation of some looping effects. For example, if I become able to permanently sac and bring back a card for one damage by a four step process, will I be able to say "do X, sac Y, bring back X and Y, 1 damage to you, loop", or am I just gonna have to manually click it the whole time? I believe they've said they want to avoid implementing arbitrarily big loops. You're asking for too much if you want infinite combos that have an "I win" mechanic to speed through them. If it takes 50 actions to achieve a result you should have to perform all 50 actions.
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Jun 14, 2013 13:21
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Multiplayer is such a huge deal for me and my friends. I've put an obscene number of hours into DOTP 2HG and have loved every second. I think if you do a 'Headed-Giant' type format the flow isn't too bad. The key is to have a team all take their turns at the same time instead of one by one. I've never felt like the waiting was too long in DOTP and if they could mirror that kind of play style and possibly even add a 3HG type variant I'll need new pants.  If they institute some kind of 2HG drafting system then I may never play another game again. 
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Jun 14, 2013 15:07
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Neraren posted:I believe they've said they want to avoid implementing arbitrarily big loops. You're asking for too much if you want infinite combos that have an "I win" mechanic to speed through them. If it takes 50 actions to achieve a result you should have to perform all 50 actions. Once you get so many cards, it's going to happen that something will go infinite. It's pretty much inevitable. When that happens, I'd rather have a loop that goes off rather than my watch my opponent play solitaire for a half hour.
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Jun 14, 2013 16:00
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OBi posted:Magic has plenty of fixing at common, it's usually just not the good fixing. I'm not a huge limited player though, are formats with common fixing less fun to draft? Given the fact that ROE had prophetic prism and terramorphic expanse (or was it evolving wilds?) at common and is widely considered one of the best formats ever, I'll go ahead and say no. Innistrad had traveler's amulet for fixing too, in a pinch. Modern masters was specifically designed to be fun to draft and has lots of fixing at uncommon and common.
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Jun 14, 2013 16:00
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Go RV! posted:Once you get so many cards, it's going to happen that something will go infinite. It's pretty much inevitable. They've gone on record multiple times to say they hate 'degenerate,' or, well, infinite combos. If they ever decide to actually change cards, that's what they'll be changing.
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Jun 14, 2013 16:19
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BenRGamer posted:They've gone on record multiple times to say they hate 'degenerate,' or, well, infinite combos. If they ever decide to actually change cards, that's what they'll be changing. They also said at one point (I do not have citation for this) I think that they would just ban cards outright instead of errataing them
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Jun 14, 2013 16:34
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On the subject of drafts, I thought that you got the 45 cards in the packs YOU bought/brought to the draft. Through the magic of digital game, I thought what was happening is that you played the draft game, but that the cards you got to keep in your collection were the ones in the packs you opened. Is that not correct?
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Jun 14, 2013 17:29
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tijag posted:On the subject of drafts, I thought that you got the 45 cards in the packs YOU bought/brought to the draft. No, you keep the ones you choose while the boosters (both yours and others) are passed around, not the cards in the boosters you brought.
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Jun 14, 2013 17:31
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Midrena posted:No, you keep the ones you choose while the boosters (both yours and others) are passed around, not the cards in the boosters you brought. This is a bummer. It seems like the format would be a better GAME if instead of you keeping the cards you picked, you kept the cards you opened.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:04
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tijag posted:This is a bummer. Wait... why is this a bummer? You get to choose the cards you want out of a booster! You're saying you'd rather just be stuck with the random poo poo you got from your packs? It's perfectly normal to sometimes grab a chase rare or something you think might be really useful in a constructed deck you have instead of a card that will be used in your draft deck. That's part of the whole strategy of drafting.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:13
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tijag posted:This is a bummer. Edit: ^^Yeah, what he said. It's also why I hate rare redrafting at the end of drafts. I picked those cards they are mine give them to me. I don't really understand what you mean. By doing it in standard booster draft format, you have the choice of what cards you open, build a deck with, and keep. Otherwise you just end up with random jank. If you want to keep the cards you open, why not just open 3 random packs?
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Jun 14, 2013 18:13
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tijag posted:This is a bummer. That's called Sealed format, not Draft format.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:15
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Fox of Stone posted:That's called Sealed format, not Draft format. I see. To clarify my statements, it feels like you could enjoy the actual game you play from the cards you drafted BETTER if instead of grabbing cards you need for constructed, you grabbed the best cards for the deck you are trying to build. I'm in at the GK level and plan on keeping the 90 extra boosters that come with that reward. Since I get a free draft a week, should I open the boosters all and just take my free weekly draft, or is there some inherent advantage to using my crap ton of boosters in drafts for a second or third weekly draft?
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Jun 14, 2013 18:22
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I think you're all misunderstanding him. I think he's saying, do the draft as normal, but at the end you get the cards that were in the booster packs that you bought, rather than the cards you drafted. In a way this makes sense since it eliminates all temptation to raredraft, but it has a lot of issues as well since it essentially turns drafting into a "phantom" draft with opening three boosters stapled onto it.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:22
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revengeanceful posted:I think you're all misunderstanding him. I think he's saying, do the draft as normal, but at the end you get the cards that were in the booster packs that you bought, rather than the cards you drafted. In a way this makes sense since it eliminates all temptation to raredraft, but it has a lot of issues as well since it essentially turns drafting into a "phantom" draft with opening three boosters stapled onto it. Yes, this is what I thought the draft would be. I thought you get to 'draft' your deck from the draft process, but at the end, you keep the cards you opened. I've never played TCG type card game, and never ever done drafts, so this is just confusion/inexperience on my part. It feels like the game you play with the other people would be more fun if everyone just drafted the best deck they could for that game, because the cards they were getting to keep in their collection was set as soon as they opened each pack. I see that most of you don't want that, and are glad it doesn't work that way. This means I just need to play and figure it out, and I'm sure I'll get to that point as well.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:26
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revengeanceful posted:I think you're all misunderstanding him. I think he's saying, do the draft as normal, but at the end you get the cards that were in the booster packs that you bought, rather than the cards you drafted. In a way this makes sense since it eliminates all temptation to raredraft, but it has a lot of issues as well since it essentially turns drafting into a "phantom" draft with opening three boosters stapled onto it. No, I get what he's saying, I just am not sure why you'd do it that way. It's like a mix of sealed and draft which ends up with the issues you mentioned. You can already kind of get around it in draft with rare redrafting anyway, though that's a pretty divisive topic itself. tijag posted:To clarify my statements, it feels like you could enjoy the actual game you play from the cards you drafted BETTER if instead of grabbing cards you need for constructed, you grabbed the best cards for the deck you are trying to build. I see what you're saying here but having to make those decisions is part of the fun and strategy of drafting. Like, I feel like the actual drafting part is as important as actually playing the games with the deck. At any rate, I don't want to sound too harsh! It really wouldn't be a big deal to have a format like that available to play (since it's not like you're forced to play it). I'm just not sure how popular it would be. tijag posted:I'm in at the GK level and plan on keeping the 90 extra boosters that come with that reward. Since I get a free draft a week, should I open the boosters all and just take my free weekly draft, or is there some inherent advantage to using my crap ton of boosters in drafts for a second or third weekly draft? I guess it depends on how much you enjoy drafting vs constructed? I mean playing drafts more often will hopefully make you better at them, and the better you get the more you'll win and the more value you'll get out of your boosters. Learning card evaluation skills and how to build decks on the fly will probably help you a fair bit coming up with constructed decks as well. cathead fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jun 14, 2013 |
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Jun 14, 2013 18:35
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CountFosco posted:Given the fact that ROE had prophetic prism and terramorphic expanse (or was it evolving wilds?) at common and is widely considered one of the best formats ever, I'll go ahead and say no. Innistrad had traveler's amulet for fixing too, in a pinch. Modern masters was specifically designed to be fun to draft and has lots of fixing at uncommon and common. Magic does usually have one or two colorless fixing cards at common in sets, but very rarely more than that outside of multicolor blocks, and even more rarely have constructed-quality colorless fixing at common. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is the signets in Ravnica block.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:43
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I think for those people who are collectors drafting can be pretty hard to deal with because what they ultimately fear is cracking amazing packs and having to let go of them. I also think that collectors have attached a value to rare type cards solely because they are rare. They could be the most useless card in the game, never make it into any deck any one plays (hopefully there will not be a lot of these), and be worth nothing in the secondary market but to the collector it is still valuable to have. I sort of struggle to understand why this kind of person would want to play a digital card game over a traditional paper one, and don't think drafting is for them. The truth is if you are a decent drafter you almost always get better cards through drafting then from opening a random pack. If you are able to read what colors are open in pack 1 you get a disproportionately amount of strong cards in those colors in pack 2 and 3. Now not every card in limited will be useful in constructed but I would argue that cards that are strong in limited are much more likely to be good in constructed then just random cards. Not to mention you have the chance to win the draft and get even more cards.
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Jun 14, 2013 18:58
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cheetah7071 posted:Magic does usually have one or two colorless fixing cards at common in sets, but very rarely more than that outside of multicolor blocks, and even more rarely have constructed-quality colorless fixing at common. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is the signets in Ravnica block. Which they pretty much stated was a bad choice!
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Jun 14, 2013 19:02
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tijag posted:I'm in at the GK level and plan on keeping the 90 extra boosters that come with that reward. Since I get a free draft a week, should I open the boosters all and just take my free weekly draft, or is there some inherent advantage to using my crap ton of boosters in drafts for a second or third weekly draft? Well, look at it this way: Assuming that you can trade in 1 booster for at least 1 Platinum, every 4 boosters you have is worth one draft. Opening three boosters in a draft is roughly equivalent to opening three boosters outside of a draft, if not better for you since people will often take cards better for their draft deck than for constructed. Then, if you win JUST ONE booster, then you've come out even since you put in four packs, and received four packs. If you win more than one booster, you're ahead. To summarize: draft is The Best, never open boosters. cathead posted:No, I get what he's saying, I just am not sure why you'd do it that way. In short? Loss Aversion. Here is Stovetop posted:Which they pretty much stated was a bad choice! Signets were a mistake because they accelerated AND fixed your mana, rendering green mostly useless. Common fixing exists in the current format, and it's fine, though not constructed playable.
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Jun 14, 2013 19:14
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Man all this talk about drafts has me itching for a Kickstarter update
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Jun 14, 2013 19:21
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Oh hey, new article? http://hextcg.com/dungeon-delving/
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Jun 14, 2013 19:27
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Lone Goat posted:Well, look at it this way: 1) I don't follow your first thing. I thought drafts were 3 boosters and if I bring my own I only have to pay a small fee for the tournament? Do I have to give up four boosters to play in a draft? 2) It isn't so much loss aversion, as I was focusing on the 'draft format' and how the game will work. Obviously there are conflicting elements to the draft. 'Should I draft the best deck I can so I can try to win the tournament, or should I take the cards I want the most for my personal collection/constructed?'. If you only kept the cards that you opened, then that choice is gone, and then everyone would be trying to build the best deck they could, while still having to 'draft' it. Sealed, as I understand it would just be having a set amount of boosters that are yours, and you don't pass them to anyone else. You only have those boosters to select from and then you make the best deck you can. Clearly I was mistaken in how the draft would work, but it wasn't because I was afraid of losing something in the boosters I opened, it was because I assumed they would be focusing on making the goal of winning the tournament the most important thing, and obviously it may not be to some individuals who are looking to just take the most valuable cards, or cards they need for their constructed deck etc.
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Jun 14, 2013 19:29
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