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Im not being sarcastic, but what more do you expect the guy to do other than publicly express his disagreement with those scum. Its a a lot more than most will ever do. Get yourself on that bus young man. Aad give your misses a regular call. She'll be frettin  \/\/\/ Did think about that. There'll be a lot insufferable cunts around you no doubt. But on balance I think you'll be glad you went. bpower fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 14, 2013 23:51
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Well I was going to go but I was worried that the counter-protest stuff would be full of condescending gobshites. Thanks for proving my hunch, Serotonin. Guess I'll leave it to the pros.
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Jun 15, 2013 00:03
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Wow aren't you precious. 'I was going to stand up for something I believe in then somebody said something facetious online and I'm going to stay at home and sulk.' My point is that the UAF 'official' demos often are largely ineffective in doing anything than allowing people to have a shout way out of earshot of the EDL and the general public. They cooperate with police to ensure that its pretty much neutered and has little real impact on the EDL. The demos that have been most effective are those that the local communities have organised such as Walthamstow or Tower Hamlets where the fascists were actually prevented from marching and assembling and saw them going home shamed. The SWP have been using the UAF as a front for more paper sales for a while now, and they really have no interest in countering the threat from the likes of the EDL on thwe streets. They have even been known to rat out any members of the demos that are not complying with police instructions and get them arrested. My last experience with UAF was in Bristol where the official demo was literally useless. We assembled in a really good spot in prime position to at least let the EDL see us, but the police wanted us to move completely out of sight of the EDL. The majority of the crowd were happy to defy the police peacefully despite a section 14 being read out but the UAF organisers literally threatened to take their toys and go home and shepherded the march along the police approved route out of sight of the public. Fromt he official march end point we were then kettled on a bridge about half a mile from the EDL march and we literally could just see the EDL if you squinted hard in the distance and looked between a small gap in the trees on a tree lined avenue that they were marching down. It was pathetic. Whereas the locals who eschewed the official route were able to block the coach park and train station and make life very uncomfy for the EDL as they tried to assemble. Had the official marchers tried that the EDL wouldnt have been able to march at all, like Walthamstow or Tower Hamlets. Im not suggesting you should be out there running about attacking the EDL, Im aware thats not everyones cup of tea, Im just very wary of the UAF/SWP and their brand of anti fascism. Serotonin fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 07:19
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Sometimes I wonder if the UAF has actually been totally infiltrated by the EDL and they're using it as a way to keep people who don't know better from actually interefering with their marches while still feeling like they're accomplishing something.
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Jun 15, 2013 08:53
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Serotonin posted:Wow aren't you precious. 'I was going to stand up for something I believe in then somebody said something facetious online and I'm going to stay at home and sulk.' Its almost as if people who are nervous about doing something for the first time respond better to "hey, will see you there and best of luck, even if they aren't the best" as opposed to sneering contempt.
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Jun 15, 2013 09:26
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Josef bugman posted:Its almost as if people who are nervous about doing something for the first time respond better to "hey, will see you there and best of luck, even if they aren't the best" as opposed to sneering contempt. There was nothing sneering about it, it was fact, its exactly how UAF demos go down if you have ever been on one. Maybe even reassuring if he doesnt want any direct action and is nervous of that sort of thing.
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Jun 15, 2013 09:31
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Sorry, Serotonin. I meant the UAF not you, didn't come over too well. My only other experience of anything even remotely similar is going to the Tolpuddle anniversary, and I found it a bit like you say - a lot of ulterior motives, self-importance and an magazines getting shoved in your face. My hunch was the counter-protest would be just like you said, in which case I'll leave them to it.
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Jun 15, 2013 09:32
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Crane Fist posted:Sometimes I wonder if the UAF has actually been totally infiltrated by the EDL and they're using it as a way to keep people who don't know better from actually interefering with their marches while still feeling like they're accomplishing something. No its been infiltrated by the SWP. Also remember that David Cameron is a UAF signatory. Enough said.
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Jun 15, 2013 09:32
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Serotonin posted:There was nothing sneering about it, it was fact, its exactly how UAF demos go down if you have ever been on one. Maybe even reassuring if he doesnt want any direct action and is nervous of that sort of thing. Ooops, sorry mate, misread your stuff. I do apologise!
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Jun 15, 2013 09:48
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Modrasone posted:Sorry, Serotonin. I meant the UAF not you, didn't come over too well. My only other experience of anything even remotely similar is going to the Tolpuddle anniversary, and I found it a bit like you say - a lot of ulterior motives, self-importance and an magazines getting shoved in your face. My hunch was the counter-protest would be just like you said, in which case I'll leave them to it. If you mean Ashton I know at least one badass French woman will be there and willing to have a proper go and she should be going with a few others but otherwise yeah, gmuaf is pretty limp at the moment, lots of cuddling up to various community figures who go and offer dates to the fascists, lots of obeying the authorities at all times and things like holding a multicultural march the week after the pseudo-nationalist, locally organised by an edl member, Manchester Strong march.
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Jun 15, 2013 11:08
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Josef bugman posted:Its almost as if people who are nervous about doing something for the first time respond better to "hey, will see you there and best of luck, even if they aren't the best" as opposed to sneering contempt. If you're swayed from protest because somebody said something mean online, then maybe activism just isn't for you.
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Jun 15, 2013 11:17
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Serotonin posted:No its been infiltrated by the SWP. Also remember that David Cameron is a UAF signatory. Enough said. They showed up at Pride Scotia today and tried to do their usual schtick of making it all about them... at a march of around a thousand folk which was otherwise a brilliant time. It was hilarious. There was the two I usually see around (henceforth named Big Trot and Little Trot) selling papers and one lady who was asked to give a speech and said some vague platitudes (other speakers actually highlighted abuses such as the Border Agency turning away LGBT asylum seekers and marriage inequality) and tried to lead everyone in a very, very long song that no one knew the words to. I went up to Big Trot and said, "Your party covered up nine rape cases and you expect lesbians to buy your paper?" He got cross and said "We covered up nothing! We just don't trust the police to keep women safe!" "So does the party have a prison they can put him in to keep him away from us, or did you just let him loose after a kangaroo court where the victim wasn't invited?" Little Trot led me away before Big Trot got really angry and says, "Actually there were representatives there and not all of those nine cases were about rape." So that's all right then.
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Jun 15, 2013 18:55
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I see the BBC are continuing their history of giving the fash mainstream airtime today.
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Jun 16, 2013 12:22
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Stottie Kyek posted:They showed up at Pride Scotia today and tried to do their usual schtick of making it all about them... at a march of around a thousand folk which was otherwise a brilliant time. It was hilarious. There was the two I usually see around (henceforth named Big Trot and Little Trot) selling papers and one lady who was asked to give a speech and said some vague platitudes (other speakers actually highlighted abuses such as the Border Agency turning away LGBT asylum seekers and marriage inequality) and tried to lead everyone in a very, very long song that no one knew the words to. The fact they are still with the SWP pretty much tells you all you need to know but trying to justify the situation with a defense that boils down to well he only raped some of those nine women is pretty mind-boggling, is there a threshold minimum number of victims before a member of the SWP thinks it's a problem?
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Jun 16, 2013 19:56
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The SWP needs a good purge, and to be rebuilt from the ground up. It's absolutely staggering that anyone is defending this group right now.
OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 20:11
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Spacedad: I hate to say this, but you are coming off as the worst sort of caricature of Arrogant American "let me educate you about your own country's politics", and that is coming from a fellow US resident. I read everything in the thread, I have been reading the thread for months but I very rarely post anything because I don't live in the UK, I am not immersed in their politics like they are, and I am likely to misunderstand much of what goes on in the UK. I think you need to lurk more, and take a more respectful tone if you don't want such a hostile reception in the future.
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Jun 16, 2013 22:35
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To be fair to Spacedad, he later said he'd go and do some reading after taking on board some of what was said.
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Jun 17, 2013 09:47
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OwlBot 2000 posted:The SWP needs a good purge, and to be rebuilt from the ground up. It's absolutely staggering that anyone is defending this group right now. They do an okay job of covering up or drawing attention away from the corruption in their party, and it's hard to argue with their outward stance on things like anti-fascism, LGBT rights, progressive taxation and feminism (ahahahaha) if you don't know what they actually practise or the way their wee cult works. I suspect some of the younger and newer members are okay people but got into it because it tries to take over every leftist cause so they think they're the only party out there, and then the power structure and group identity politics of it keep them in.
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Jun 17, 2013 09:59
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OwlBot 2000 posted:The SWP needs a good purge, and to be rebuilt from the ground up. It's absolutely staggering that anyone is defending this group right now. No, don't you understand, they've got to concentrate on all their good work and not let personal issues distract from their important message! There must be a word for that line of thinking, it seems to infect almost all ideological organisations. Hell even the Nazis had their "Kill all Jews but not this guy" policies.
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Jun 17, 2013 10:03
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Stottie Kyek posted:it tries to take over every leftist cause so they think they're the only party out there I don't think there's a problem with them going to rallies about racism, LGBT, feminism etc. and talking to people, if they genuinely believe that these problems are symptoms of capitalism, and that any challenge to capitalism will require full equality between all workers. I can see people getting frustrated by their presence ("oh, these people again") but I don't think there's anything wrong or dishonest there. My problem with them is that they are rape-enablers.
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Jun 17, 2013 10:17
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I don't think there's a problem with them going to rallies about racism, LGBT, feminism etc. and talking to people, if they genuinely believe that these problems are symptoms of capitalism, and that any challenge to capitalism will require full equality between all workers. I can see people getting frustrated by their presence ("oh, these people again") but I don't think there's anything wrong or dishonest there. And you don't see how them being rape-enablers might give them less right to talk about issues of feminism?
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Jun 17, 2013 11:46
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Oh it definitely removes their right to talk about feminism. I was just stating that, in a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with a Left party showing up at various rights protests in order to support and receive support from other causes. But in the specific case of the SWP, due to their recent history, they deserve to be chased out of any feminism-related events.
OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jun 17, 2013 |
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Jun 17, 2013 12:01
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Gah, reading soacedad's posts in one go can't have been good for my blood pressure. While he made a range of terrible points the one that needs refuting most is that the FBI is somehow a shield against fascism and a friend of minorities. This is absurd in light of cointelp: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO which specifically targeted left wing and civil rights groups, the latter detailed more specifically here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/NSA/Vendetta_MLK_LS.html There also does not seem to be too much of a focus on fascist groups in the US: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/dhs/all/ I'd love to see evidence the FBI are specifically targeting white hate groups beyond the usual fascist claims of persecution. Finally though, spacedad's claim the US has "sorted out" fascism and that Europe should follow America's lead is utterly disgusting in light of Operation Gladio: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio in which the US actively aided and funded far right groups across Europe so as crush left wing movements and organisations.
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Jun 17, 2013 13:17
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Oh it definitely removes their right to talk about feminism. I was just stating that, in a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with a Left party showing up at various rights protests in order to support and receive support from other causes. But in the specific case of the SWP, due to their recent history, they deserve to be chased out of any feminism-related events. The SWP have a particularly poor reputation for actually getting anything done, beyond endlessly turning up at rallies for just about any cause and trying to make them all about the SWP. I've heard them (and not just in this thread) described as a cult and while that's probably overstating it a bit (cults generally have some sort of charisma, after all...) I can see where the comparison comes from.
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Jun 17, 2013 13:43
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Remember Alex Wood, the UKIP candidate who said that the pictures of him making racist comments on Facebook were photoshopped? According to the police, he was telling the truth. Huh.
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Jun 17, 2013 17:21
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Ichabod Sexbeast posted:To be fair to Spacedad, he later said he'd go and do some reading after taking on board some of what was said. That actually makes it worse. He filled the thread with smug condescension that made it obvious he knew nothing about the issue then ran off -- totally contradicting his liberal 'oh let's all have a nice rational discussion' poo poo -- and when finally someone held his hand he sheepishly said 'oh, maybe I'll do a little reading.'
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Jun 18, 2013 01:40
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I don't think there's a problem with them going to rallies about racism, LGBT, feminism etc. and talking to people, if they genuinely believe that these problems are symptoms of capitalism, and that any challenge to capitalism will require full equality between all workers. I can see people getting frustrated by their presence ("oh, these people again") but I don't think there's anything wrong or dishonest there. I'm not British, but from what I understand it's not so much them showing up that people have a problem with as it is the, pretending it's "their" rally/protest and making it harder for people who are there to actually participate to be seen or heard while they try to recruit.
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Jun 18, 2013 05:20
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The SWP will go to great lengths to have their members and their papers appear in as many photographs taken at the event as possible and then claim this as proof everyone there was SWP, they organised it etc etc.
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Jun 18, 2013 11:52
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As I said, here in Denmark we had to have dedicated SWP guards at rallies and protests, to prevent them taking pictures after giving everyone their stupid lollipops and newspapers. They are worse to get rid of than the worst flus I've had, and I've had my fill.
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Jun 18, 2013 15:18
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Kieselguhr Kid posted:That actually makes it worse. He filled the thread with smug condescension that made it obvious he knew nothing about the issue then ran off -- totally contradicting his liberal 'oh let's all have a nice rational discussion' poo poo -- and when finally someone held his hand he sheepishly said 'oh, maybe I'll do a little reading.' Given the way arguments normally go round here the fact that someone with lovely opinions actually admitted that they might not in fact know everything is something of an achievement. That's pretty depressing itself but eh, it's a rare thing to see someone ever do anything besides double down on their lovely opinions and if he's willing to change I wouldn't attack him too much.
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Jun 18, 2013 15:35
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Crameltonian posted:Given the way arguments normally go round here the fact that someone with lovely opinions actually admitted that they might not in fact know everything is something of an achievement. That's pretty depressing itself but eh, it's a rare thing to see someone ever do anything besides double down on their lovely opinions and if he's willing to change I wouldn't attack him too much. This. Also, apparently people have been harassing him on PMs and causing him a great deal of grief, which frankly is being a lot shittier than he ever has.
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Jun 18, 2013 15:39
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The SWP have a particularly poor reputation for actually getting anything done, beyond endlessly turning up at rallies for just about any cause and trying to make them all about the SWP. That's a shame. Which are the more effective Left parties in the UK?
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Jun 18, 2013 19:06
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I'd prefer it if IS/SWP wasn't viewed as a left party. They are using all of their (considerable) resources on infiltrating other parties and initiatives and making them their own brain of deranged trottery - and doing no real political work aside from out of touch analyses in their all-pervasive newspapers. Comparing them to a political party is more than a little off, is what I'm saying.
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Jun 18, 2013 19:11
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ReV VAdAUL posted:The SWP will go to great lengths to have their members and their papers appear in as many photographs taken at the event as possible and then claim this as proof everyone there was SWP, they organised it etc etc. To wit:  (Smash the SWP)
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Jun 18, 2013 19:18
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OwlBot 2000 posted:That's a shame. Which are the more effective Left parties in the UK? SPEW (Socialist Party of England & Wales, formerly Militant) is pretty big and also a bunch of Trots.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:51
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Jeoh posted:SPEW (Socialist Party of England & Wales, formerly Militant) is pretty big and also a bunch of Trots. Is there something wrong with being a Trot? I thought it was just historically the UKs Trot parties were a bit poo poo.
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Jun 18, 2013 21:37
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It's not all trotskists that perform covert entrism, or so people tell me. However, every trot party I've known of try to infiltrate labor unions and other parties, lie about it when caught in the act, and transform them to lovely and irrelevant top-down dictatorships when they succeed. Oh, and many of them are led by SWP, becoming retarded by adopting SWP tactics and related tomfoolery.
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Jun 18, 2013 21:49
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It sounds like SWP and their ilk are awful, but I don't see why it would be a bad thing to get actual leftists to take over toothless patsy unions. And what kind of top-down dictatorship do you mean? I thought Trots were comically obsessed with voting on every last thing, making sure people all got exactly 3 minutes, 43 seconds (or whatever dividing the time block by the number of people produces) to talk, and all that.
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Jun 18, 2013 21:55
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Tias posted:It's not all trotskists that perform covert entrism, or so people tell me. However, every trot party I've known of try to infiltrate labor unions and other parties, lie about it when caught in the act, and transform them to lovely and irrelevant top-down dictatorships when they succeed. That, and all Trots are counter-revolutionary swine who will be destroyed along with the fash.
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Jun 18, 2013 22:12
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OwlBot 2000 posted:That's a shame. Which are the more effective Left parties in the UK? Well if you define "effective" as "have more chance of getting an MP than the Monster Raving Loony Party" then there's the Greens (sometimes) and if you're lucky enough not to be stuck in England you can choose the SNP, Plaid Cymru or the SDLP on their better days, and, well, that's about it. All have some pretty glaring flaws but those are it. Labour's success in first unifying the workers vote, then later in crushing any low-level dissent, as well as the vagaries of FPTP, have meant that Labour abandoning any policy that Thatcher herself wouldn't approve has pretty much ended any national-level party that would be recognisable as left-wing to any impartial observer. Doesn't stop the Press calling Milliband "Red Ed" and going on about unions though. Locally there are better candidates but it's a very sharply regional thing, and you have to put a fair bit of research into not accidentally voting for someone completely terrible. Maybe eventually the unions will wake up to what Labour are up to, pull their funding and stick it into someone decent and we can kill off the fatally-wounded Labour brand once and for all.
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Jun 18, 2013 23:59
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