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berzerkmonkey posted:But the whole point of 40K is that there are no good guys - every race is just as bad as the last one in some way, shape, or form. The only race that isn't morally corrupt is the Tyranids, and that's because they're essentially animals. You could go further and say the Orks are just weapons, like a sword, if that's still the official take on them.
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Jun 19, 2013 20:52
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berzerkmonkey posted:But the whole point of 40K is that there are no good guys - every race is just as bad as the last one in some way, shape, or form. The only race that isn't morally corrupt is the Tyranids, and that's because they're essentially animals.
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Jun 19, 2013 20:56
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Tao exist because GW noticed that lots of their customer base like anime, so they made a race that's the Space Asians and is a weeaboo's wet dream.
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Jun 19, 2013 21:02
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Alchenar posted:Tao exist because GW noticed that lots of their customer base like anime, so they made a race that's the Space Asians and is a weeaboo's wet dream. Ding. We have a winner. The Tau exists so that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium, you can have Wappaneese HONNURABUUU PROTRINES about your wandering samurai fire-warrior who after fighting to free its people reveals that SHE IS ACTUALLY A WOMAN. SWIFT AS A COURSEING RIVER. Seriously, they just saw a demographic and filled it. I always thought hover tanks were boss anyway. EDIT: I'm not mad about this by the way, GW is a buisness EDIT2: gently caress me sideways Mulan took place in China didnt it.
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Jun 19, 2013 21:13
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I doubt it was anything so deliberate. Like, I don't think there was a big meeting where the GW executives got together and said "PEOPLE LIKE ANIME, HOW CAN WE GET ALL THE ANIMES?" Probably someone came up with designs and concepts they thought were cool, and maybe demographics and untapped market niches played a part in them getting the go-ahead.
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Jun 19, 2013 21:21
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AcidRonin posted:Ding. We have a winner. The Tau exists so that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium, you can have Wappaneese HONNURABUUU PROTRINES about your wandering samurai fire-warrior who after fighting to free its people reveals that SHE IS ACTUALLY A WOMAN. SWIFT AS A COURSEING RIVER. Seriously, they just saw a demographic and filled it. I always thought hover tanks were boss anyway. The Imperium provides so much opportunity for grimdark storytelling that I don't see anything wrong with allowing more upbeat stories in this tiny corner of the galaxy. The Tau provide a nice contrast to the Imperium, who are so up their own arses to think that their brutality and zeal are absolutely necessary for survival. They're what humans used to be.
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Jun 20, 2013 07:39
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bunnyofdoom posted:What about the Salamanders? ADB did a good write up of how the Salamanders works (don't read Nick Kyme's poo poo) in Helsreach where the Black Templars are excited to work with a founding chapter but then, after seeing that the Salamanders are honourable and will gladly give their lives for the common man look upon them with disgust and refuse to work together. There are other 'good' Space Marine chapters like the Space Wolves and the Celestial Lions but like anyone who is 'good', they get always end up getting hosed over by the establishment. Alchenar posted:Tao exist because GW noticed that lots of their customer base like anime, so they made a race that's the Space Asians and is a weeaboo's wet dream. The original design notes were based on anime but I think the allied empire was suppose to give the sculptors the opportunity to design more unique and original models.
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Jun 20, 2013 08:24
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Hey guys, my tabletop roleplaying group is playing Dark Heresy (40K RPG) and we're quite enjoying it. The DM plays 40K with me but the other 2 in the group have asked about what novels to try out, to get a feel of the setting, the worlds and the overall ambiance. We're playing inquisitors, not Marines or soldiers so of course I suggested the Eisenhorn series (which I read first, using this thread's title as instructions). Is Ravenor the next best series to recommend, or is Gaunt's Ghost? Also, I'm now on the fourth book of the Horus Heresy series but after the reading the first 3 and still not getting to the confrontation between Horus and the Emperor I have to ask if there's any book yet that covers the attack on Terra? The first book was good but the following 3 haven't really grabbed me as much (I read that the first 4 ought to be read first because of the chronological order so that's what I did) and I don't want to wander around the entire series wondering where the attack takes place.
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Jun 20, 2013 09:33
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If you're playing Inquisitor stuff, then postpone Gaunt's Ghosts. You'd want series that fill in what's going on behind the lines. The Shira Calpurnia series by James Swallow would be perfect; Enforcer, Legacy, Blind. There were also two novels about an inquisitor's warband cut off and on their own trying to solve the mystery and survive inter-Ordo craziness. I forget whor ead them but you want those. Even the Ciaphas Cain books would be closer to the kind of material you should be reading first.
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Jun 20, 2013 09:42
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krushgroove posted:Hey guys, my tabletop roleplaying group is playing Dark Heresy (40K RPG) and we're quite enjoying it. The DM plays 40K with me but the other 2 in the group have asked about what novels to try out, to get a feel of the setting, the worlds and the overall ambiance. We're playing inquisitors, not Marines or soldiers so of course I suggested the Eisenhorn series (which I read first, using this thread's title as instructions). Is Ravenor the next best series to recommend, or is Gaunt's Ghost? The book or books about the attack on Tera aren't even close yet, the Heresy is a huge huge thing and there's a bunch of conflicts that still need to be covered, not to mention the fact that they are basically rewriting all of the Canon background of 40k as they go along so it's pretty hard to predict what else is gonna be covered at this point prior to the Tera conflict. Basically if you're just in it for Horus v. The Emperor, well, you're out of luck.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:14
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OK thanks guys, good info. I'm going to finish Flight of the Eisenstein then try Shira Calpurnia, get back to Abnett with Ravenor, then maybe poke around the other Horus Heresy novels.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:48
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Lord of the Night has an Interrogator character opposite a Chaos Space Marine Captain, and I think it also has the right mood for Dark Heresy stuff.
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Jun 20, 2013 12:21
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I doubt it was anything so deliberate. Like, I don't think there was a big meeting where the GW executives got together and said "PEOPLE LIKE ANIME, HOW CAN WE GET ALL THE ANIMES?" Probably someone came up with designs and concepts they thought were cool, and maybe demographics and untapped market niches played a part in them getting the go-ahead. I bet it WAS that deliberate. I mean I’m not saying it was "GUYS! The weaboo market, we need it!" but I have no problem believing that somebody brought up that poo poo is too loving grimdark for some people and we could sell more models if we had a line that looked clean like Heavy Gear or something. Remember, GW is and always will be "We Sell Models". There is also a nifty game you can play with them and some cool books we also sell but it’s all as a vehicle to sell you overpriced plastic. Somebody once told me that the black library was barely a profit for GW but it's worth it because it's essentially you paying for an advertisement for the models. EDIT: i'm not bitching about this by the way, it's a company it wouldnt exist if their was no profit in this.
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Jun 20, 2013 12:46
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krushgroove posted:OK thanks guys, good info. I'm going to finish Flight of the Eisenstein then try Shira Calpurnia, get back to Abnett with Ravenor, then maybe poke around the other Horus Heresy novels. Calpurnia is a great series for roleplayers, goes really in depth to the Imperium at home and covers a bunch of bases.
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Jun 20, 2013 13:44
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ed balls balls man posted:Calpurnia is a great series for roleplayers, goes really in depth to the Imperium at home and covers a bunch of bases. Also, they're by some guy named Matthew Farrer and not James Swallow as previously noted. Which is a definite plus. He's at least readable, though not exactly a great writer or anything.
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Jun 20, 2013 13:51
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Cream_Filling posted:Also, they're by some guy named Matthew Farrer and not James Swallow as previously noted. Which is a definite plus. He's at least readable, though not exactly a great writer or anything. He is, however, responsible for the single worst short story I have ever read in all of 40k.
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Jun 20, 2013 14:01
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Cream_Filling posted:Also, they're by some guy named Matthew Farrer and not James Swallow as previously noted. Which is a definite plus. He's at least readable, though not exactly a great writer or anything. Agreed, better than Swallow and the BL average imo.
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Jun 20, 2013 14:02
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ed balls balls man posted:Agreed, better than Swallow and the BL average imo. Thanks for all the chat on this! So is Farrer #3 behind Abnett and ADB?
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Jun 20, 2013 14:41
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krushgroove posted:Thanks for all the chat on this! So is Farrer #3 behind Abnett and ADB? I would put Chris Wright at number three.
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Jun 20, 2013 14:58
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krushgroove posted:Thanks for all the chat on this! So is Farrer #3 behind Abnett and ADB? I'd put Sandy Mitchell at #3. His Dark Heresy books were quite good I felt.
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Jun 20, 2013 15:09
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ed balls balls man posted:Calpurnia is a great series for roleplayers, goes really in depth to the Imperium at home and covers a bunch of bases. I know they get good rep in this thread but I would be aware that while these books get the setting right and are good background research for roleplaying, they are also stupidly verbose sometimes. It felt reading a 10,000 page legal document straight out of 40k, especially in the later books.
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Jun 20, 2013 15:31
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krushgroove posted:Thanks for all the chat on this! So is Farrer #3 behind Abnett and ADB? I'd gamble on new guy Peter Fehervari as most promising up and comer for third. The rest like Rob Sanders and Chris Wraight are competent but undistinguished.
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Jun 20, 2013 16:44
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Mechafunkzilla posted:He is, however, responsible for the single worst short story I have ever read in all of 40k. Wait, which one is this? I think John French is pretty good, too.
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Jun 20, 2013 17:10
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Schneider Heim posted:Wait, which one is this? It's the Harlequin one in Fear the Alien, I think it's called "Faces".
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Jun 20, 2013 17:47
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Cream_Filling posted:I'd gamble on new guy Peter Fehervari as most promising up and comer for third. The rest like Rob Sanders and Chris Wraight are competent but undistinguished. Chris Wraight has been pretty consistently good. I'd definitely put him third. Rob Sanders also owns because of how funky and weird his stories get but isn't nearly the technical writer that Wraight is. Fehervari can write put a decent sentence together, and is good at creating atmosphere and writing action sequences, but holy bajeezus did Fire Caste have some serious pacing and characterization problems. I would say he has potential but isn't close to even Chris Wraight's level yet. As for Wraight, if you haven't read Sword of Justice/Sword of Vengeance, go pick up the Swords of the Emperor omnibus ya big dummies. They're his best work and are awesome. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 17:50
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bunnyofdoom posted:I'd put Sandy Mitchell at #3. Are you kidding? His DH books contained stuff like a teenage death cult assassin girl going through the horrible grimdark dilemma of DOES HE LIKE MEEEE?
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Jun 20, 2013 17:56
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Ciaphas Cain is a great concept that makes me really sad it's not in the hands of someone more imaginative and capable.
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Jun 20, 2013 18:19
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If you like the concept, check out the Flashman books by George Macdonald Fraser. They're seriously pretty eye-popping. Makes Cain look like a model boy scout by comparison.
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Jun 20, 2013 18:54
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Or indeed the TV series Blackadder (the first season is pretty poor though).
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Jun 20, 2013 18:59
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The Rat posted:If you like the concept, check out the Flashman books by George Macdonald Fraser. They're seriously pretty eye-popping. Makes Cain look like a model boy scout by comparison. Cain is kind of the opposite of Flashman, in that Flashman is a bastard (who knows he's a bastard) who is thought to be a hero, while Cain is a hero who thinks he's not. Ciaphas Cain is more like a mash-up between Flashman and Horatio Hornblower. Though I don't mind because the Hornblower books were awesome and I would read any 40k ripoffs of it in a second. The Imperial Navy is clearly meant to be the Royal Navy in space anyway, down to the press-gangings and Hornblower's constant fear of court-martial and execution if he ever screws up or isn't aggressive enough.
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Jun 20, 2013 19:01
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Ciaphas Cain is a great concept that makes me really sad it's not in the hands of someone more imaginative and capable. As they're based on the flash man novels they're pretty accurate to the source material. The point isn't to do something new an innovative but to spend time in different places around the planet/galaxy getting into scrapes and getting out through luck. Have to say I'd prefer it if they stopped being about tyranids though. Oh and that's not meant to be disparaging to the flash man series, I've got them all and must have re read them tens of times each. Edit: for the flash fans out there check out Mr American - not as good at all but great flash cameos as a very very old man (I think a year before his death) lenoon fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 19:04
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lenoon posted:As they're based on the flash man novels they're pretty accurate to the source material. The point isn't to do something new an innovative but to spend time in different places around the planet/galaxy getting into scrapes and getting out through luck. Have to say I'd prefer it if they stopped being about tyranids though. Flashman is a murdering rapist coward (and perfectly suited to his environs, which is where the black humor of the book series comes from). It's an obvious inspiration for Cain, but Mitchell really doesn't do the concept justice at all. And imaginative does not mean he has to innovate new things in the setting, it just means not hitting the exact same plot beats ten books in a row.
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Jun 20, 2013 19:08
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Cream_Filling posted:Cain is kind of the opposite of Flashman, in that Flashman is a bastard (who knows he's a bastard) who is thought to be a hero, while Cain is a hero who thinks he's not. Ciaphas Cain is more like a mash-up between Flashman and Horatio Hornblower. Read the two Battlefleet Gothic books. Feel sad he never go to complete the trilogy.
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Jun 20, 2013 19:19
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The Rat posted:Are you kidding? His DH books contained stuff like a teenage death cult assassin girl going through the horrible grimdark dilemma of DOES HE LIKE MEEEE? Eh, she's a teenager she's kinda excused for acting like a teenager and not some overly grimdark pastiche. I liked them despite them being nothing more than a written down playthrough of Dark Heresy, (which it kinda is since pretty much all the characters are the example characters from the core rulebook.) The only Swallow book I've read so far was his first Sororitas book and it was decent at best. A quick read but rather forgetable in the end. Shame seeing as decent SoB fiction is really rare as BL cares about them as much as GW does.
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Jun 20, 2013 22:40
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Ciaphas Cain is a great concept that makes me really sad it's not in the hands of someone more imaginative and capable. I really don't see what the author could do different though given that it is Flashman/Black Adder 40k. You buy a Caiaphas Cain book because you know exactly the kind of story you're going to get, Caiaphas and his smelly aide try to run away from danger but get caught up in it anyway and, through a series of events, end up coming out on top. The books are basically 40k fan fiction written by someone living in the 40k universe. He's fought almost every enemy in the 40k universe except the Eldar/Dark Eldar but the story line isn't going to change dramatically anytime soon especially since it crosses over into the 41k. I like the series though it is shallow and easy reading but I don't see how bringing a different writer on board could really change anything.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:07
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Kegslayer posted:I really don't see what the author could do different though given that it is Flashman/Black Adder 40k. You buy a Caiaphas Cain book because you know exactly the kind of story you're going to get, Caiaphas and his smelly aide try to run away from danger but get caught up in it anyway and, through a series of events, end up coming out on top. The books are basically 40k fan fiction written by someone living in the 40k universe. I'm not saying Cain should be handed to a different writer, just that Mitchell is a really boring one.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:27
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Kegslayer posted:I really don't see what the author could do different though given that it is Flashman/Black Adder 40k. You buy a Caiaphas Cain book because you know exactly the kind of story you're going to get, Caiaphas and his smelly aide try to run away from danger but get caught up in it anyway and, through a series of events, end up coming out on top. The books are basically 40k fan fiction written by someone living in the 40k universe. Also Amberley's amazing footnotes. Let's not forget those.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:41
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As far as AuthorChat goes, I've become a fan of John French. A friend had me pick up Ahriman: Exile earlier this year and I devoured it in two days straight; recently I read the Crucible short story that came out and loved it too. Said friend then had me read The Crimson Fist; while I enjoyed it, Exile and Crucible are clearly much better works, for my money. I've yet to not thoroughly enjoy anything he wrote, though.
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Jun 21, 2013 02:18
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I'm not saying Cain should be handed to a different writer, just that Mitchell is a really boring one. Yeah I agree, I liked maybe two or three of the books but I think he's just stuck with the limits that he's set for himself. I don't think he's allowed to add anything major to the setting (late 40k/early 41k) and I think there are enough books for the reader to know his characters.
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Jun 21, 2013 04:39
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What were the battle fleet gothic books named again?
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Jun 21, 2013 17:01
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