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Namtab posted:I've played the walking dead and, short of a few dialogue changes, none of your choices actually matter. I'm on about a game where choices have actual consequences to how things play out. Bioware games, all you get is an antiquated morality system of good/evil, both of which involve exaggerated choices. You either kiss babies or kill puppies. I get what you mean about them. My point is that as a proof of concept it's easily doable. EA is shamefully incompetent most of the time, so the fact that they even got something substantial out of the concept is surprising. And I guess TWD is pretty linear at the end of the day, but it's still a great proof of concept. A good writer could probably do a fantastic job of it if they tried, but it really hasn't been tried at all.
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Jun 27, 2013 23:36
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ViggyNash posted:I get what you mean about them. My point is that as a proof of concept it's easily doable. EA is shamefully incompetent most of the time, so the fact that they even got something substantial out of the concept is surprising. And I guess TWD is pretty linear at the end of the day, but it's still a great proof of concept. TWD isn't a proof of the concept I want at all because nothing you do matters, they have their one story and they're sticking with it. Also, it's fruitless blaming EA for lovely bioware morality systems cause they were doing that before EA acquired them (although I'll concede that KotOR 2 at least tries to analyse the saint/devil style of choice that these games have, probably one of the few times that's been done ever (and even then George Lucas said that that stuff wasn't force canon, Dark side is evil always no moral greys)) Namtab fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 27, 2013 |
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Jun 27, 2013 23:44
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Rodyle posted:Oh hey, Hate Plus got an actual release date! I'm overjoyed that I can now experience the long-awaited AI Harem feature.
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Jun 27, 2013 23:55
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I just hope it has hours of Hyun-ae and Mute bickering. 
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Jun 28, 2013 00:03
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Namtab posted:TWD isn't a proof of the concept I want at all because nothing you do matters, they have their one story and they're sticking with it. Dragon Age did non-linear progression superbly, and was also made before EA swallowed Bioware (the original founders were still with the company untill ME2 I think). And then Dragon Age 2 happened. The things with divergent storylines/non-linear progression is that they are almost always done in either a yes/no format, the way Mass Effect was, or the choice didn't lead to anything at all except a different initial reaction. What was great about choice in Dragon Age is that it was almost always ambiguous. You could never 100% predict what a choice would lead to, so you just ended up picking what felt right and ran with it (or maybe saved and repicked until you got where you wanted). It would be great if all choice-based progression was written in that way. It would make choice more meaningful to the player.
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Jun 28, 2013 00:07
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DerLeo posted:I'm overjoyed that I can now experience the long-awaited AI Harem feature. Dr Pepper posted:I just hope it has hours of Hyun-ae and Mute bickering. 
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Jun 28, 2013 00:34
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Witch on the Holy Night now halfway translated: http://commiesubs.com/mahoyo/ At this rate, it should be finished before the end of the year. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jun 28, 2013 |
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Jun 28, 2013 00:56
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That's the people who are doing the worse translation because weeaboos don't like how somebody who actually did a professional quality translation of Kara no Kyoukai did the demo.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:01
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Dr Pepper posted:That's the people who are doing the worse translation because weeaboos don't like how somebody who actually did a professional quality translation of Kara no Kyoukai did the demo. I thought the "professional quality" Kara no Kyoukai translation outright made things up?
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Jun 28, 2013 01:03
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Silver2195 posted:I thought the "professional quality" Kara no Kyoukai translation outright made things up? As much as I love coke's translation there are paragraphs in there that are just plain not in the original text, yes. Then again this is Commie, so I'm not sure how much better we're going to be there.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:08
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Silver2195 posted:I thought the "professional quality" Kara no Kyoukai translation outright made things up? Not really, a bit of rewording to make the text flow better does not count as "making things up". And it's not like KnK was a particularly expertly written text in the first place.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:09
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Whining about it is pointless since Commie is the one actually showing progress whereas coke loving vanished. And yes he did make things up, as people have demonstrated on multiple occasions. One way or another, Commie is what we are getting, so that's what we'll have to live with.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:14
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Rodyle posted:And yes he did make things up, as people have demonstrated on multiple occasions. He used "The Art" instead of Magecraft!  Seriously all the dumb complaints about his translation result from actually localizing things and not sticking to the generally used fan translation terms.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:17
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Dr Pepper posted:I just hope it has hours of Hyun-ae and Mute bickering. Would unironically be the best route if this were to occur. Please let it happen. 
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Jun 28, 2013 01:21
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Namtab posted:(although I'll concede that KotOR 2 at least tries to analyse the saint/devil style of choice that these games have, probably one of the few times that's been done ever (and even then George Lucas said that that stuff wasn't force canon, Dark side is evil always no moral greys))
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Jun 28, 2013 01:26
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Obisidian makes the best games and always signs the worst possible contracts that inevitably ruins them.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:28
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Paracelsus posted:KotOR 2 was done by Obsidian anyway, which is why the force/morality stuff was way better than in KotOR. Also, yet more proof that George Lucas is a bit of a moron. KotOR 2 was the best thing to hit the franchise since Timothy Zahn. Right, I forgot Obsidion did KotOR 2. They also did a fantastic job with FO New Vegas. I really loved how open ended the story felt since you could literally interact with any of the various groups in any order and the overall story would change depending on how you explored the world. It's probably one of the best examples of non-linear storytelling out there, for video games at least. Unfortunately you can't really explore in a VN the same way you could in an open world video game. It might be an interesting thing for someone to try though.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:35
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Kagetsu Tohya sure did try though. 
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Jun 28, 2013 01:38
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KT only has one ending though: complete insanity.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:40
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Dr Pepper posted:He used "The Art" instead of Magecraft! It is a night somewhere in the beginning of August, and Mikiya comes by to visit without any prior notice, as per his MO. Popping open the door, I see him standing idly in the hallway, facing the entrance like some sort of servant-in-waiting. “Evening, Shiki. You look as lazy as ever,” he says, with a smile on his face. A strange greeting is just the kind of thing I expected him to do. “Have you heard?” he continues. “There was another jumper today, actually. This time I was actually at the scene. There’ve been a lot of these incidents lately, but I never thought I would actually come across one.” He hands me a plastic convenience store bag. “Here, in the fridge.” He holds the bag, arm outstretched, while untying his shoes and talking to me. Mikiya is nothing if not a multi-tasker. Everything in bold is stuff that Coke just threw in on his own, and it's pretty much all over the place.
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Jun 28, 2013 01:48
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So I'm finally grueling through Muv-Luv Extra again. It's surprisingly tolerable this time around, maybe because I'm skimming parts here and there and not taking it as seriously (I don't know why I was in the first place). But Ayamine's voice feels really familiar at some points. She wouldn't happen to have the same VA as Rider from Fate/stay night, would she? I would look it up but, you know, spoilers. Also, I can't remember if I asked before, but please tell me the protagonist isn't this stupid and oblivious in Muv-Luv Unlimited and onward. Sometimes I just really want to give him a good smack over the head. Thankfully, Sumika does that all the time.
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Jun 28, 2013 03:03
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:So I'm finally grueling through Muv-Luv Extra again. It's surprisingly tolerable this time around, maybe because I'm skimming parts here and there and not taking it as seriously (I don't know why I was in the first place). But Ayamine's voice feels really familiar at some points. She wouldn't happen to have the same VA as Rider from Fate/stay night, would she? I would look it up but, you know, spoilers. Actually no (it's Yuko Nagashima). She's only been in a small amount of roles so maybe you're just mixing up her voice with someone else's. And yes the protagonist does improve, even more so in Alternative. planetarial fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jun 28, 2013 |
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Jun 28, 2013 03:16
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:So I'm finally grueling through Muv-Luv Extra again. It's surprisingly tolerable this time around, maybe because I'm skimming parts here and there and not taking it as seriously (I don't know why I was in the first place). But Ayamine's voice feels really familiar at some points. She wouldn't happen to have the same VA as Rider from Fate/stay night, would she? I would look it up but, you know, spoilers. Ayamine's VA is Nagashima Yūko and no, not Rider. And... sorta. Takeru isn't so much stupid as he's very carefree and constantly in denial about a lot of things; Unlimited is about him growing up and stop being a brat, and by Alternative he's basically a different character. And then Alternative goes: "You think you're an adult yet? You think you've got it figured it out? NO, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" Nephilm fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jun 28, 2013 |
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Jun 28, 2013 03:19
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Funny enough Riders VA is another character later in the series. (Munakata)
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Jun 28, 2013 03:23
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Ah, okay, she just had that same sort of quiet, light, airy voice that kept reminding me of Rider with certain things she said. I can't wait to get to Unlimited. Right now it's the day before the sports festival.
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Jun 28, 2013 03:43
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You're not too far off from the end then. Definitely over halfway. I wouldn't feel bad about skipping parts of Extra here and there. It's mostly done its job by this point in introducing you to the characters.
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Jun 28, 2013 03:59
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DerLeo posted:Everything in bold is stuff that Coke just threw in on his own, and it's pretty much all over the place. Yes proper translation for establishing tone and the author's intent is all over the place.
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Jun 28, 2013 05:00
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Translation does not involve just making poo poo up.
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Jun 28, 2013 05:55
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Good thing it's not. It's establishing personality and tone to the reader in a context possible for the reader without knowing the original language. Shiki is a brash and rude person, established in Japanese by being a woman who uses a rough male manner of speech. But how do you translate that to English? After all, English doesn't have near the levels of formal speech. Oh, I know, have her say brash and rude things in the narration that fit with the personality she has.
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Jun 28, 2013 06:28
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I'm reminded of something Toren Smith (one of the first and most prolific translators of manga into English) said in an interview.Toren Smith posted:That the otaku will blow a gasket over drawing a towel on one panel of a naked 12 year-old-girl (in Shadow Star) but don’t seem to care about the lumpy, semi-translated dialog done on entire series is inexplicable. The story’s the thing, and what hurts the story in a comic book more than bad dialog? But I’ve come to the conclusion that they like that sort of raw translation. In fact, they aren't even shy about saying so, as I discovered in my futile discussions with them on the online forums. It was one of the reasons I dropped my work on the DH books I was still doing after the sale--I lost interested in putting so much effort into the translations when it was simply going to be criticized and disliked. I mean…why bother? I spent nearly a week doing the rewrite for the issue of Shadow Star (NaruTaru) where Shiina first goes to the Banda Academy, trying to bring alive this new world of young girls, voicing the new characters, trying to make it all sound fluid and natural and real...and what did I get? Complaints from fans who had read scanslations of that chapter that I'd gone too far from the original. (I especially enjoyed their assumption that the amateur translator of the scanslations had got it “right,” and we, therefore, must be wrong.)
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Jun 28, 2013 08:16
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Dr Pepper posted:Good thing it's not. It's establishing personality and tone to the reader in a context possible for the reader without knowing the original language. I pretty much agree with this line of thought when it comes to translating. Shows a great deal of thought in how to properly translate something that is written and intended for a particular audience to a completely different audience with different customs. Dude is not "making poo poo up" just for fun but doing his best to properly, seamlessly translate the work to where English speakers get the same quality of storytelling that those from it's native language. From looking at the example given there the translator did his best and thought out how best to translate those scenes to where the characterizations aren't lost in the translation and that's the kind of people I'd want doing translations. Stall_19 fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Jun 28, 2013 |
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Jun 28, 2013 08:40
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Honestly, I would say I prefer a localization over a more literal translation 9 out of 10 times. Sometimes it can be a rather weird choice (like Osaka being given a brooklyn accent in the manga adaption of Azumanga Daioh) that sticks out of place, but when you look at a game like Phoenix Wright, you can't deny that most of that game's success was due to the phenomenal localization work and it wouldn't have been quite as enjoyable otherwise. Like, if it's outright adding details, that could be a little weird, but if it's done to help convey the character of the narrator, then that's important too. I know for sure I would've liked some localization while carving through F/SN instead of what felt like the most literal translation ever (not that I fault him for it given the massive wordcount). I would generally like to never hear "On a completely different level", "that's just how it/she/he is", or "that sort of person/thing" in a translated work ever again. Plus sometimes there'll be something where the translator was really obviously like v  v, like some nigh-incomprehensible tangent in F/SN at an archery range about destroying yourself or jokes about Japanese food in Muv-Luv with zero attempt made to make it anything other than  for an English-speaking reader.There was some bit where Ayamine says "Animals are precious", to which Mikoto says "Animals are great for eating". Ayamine looks kind of disgusted and the protagonist thinks, "Weren't you talking about eating (insert Japanese food name) earlier?" or something. I assume it was a joke about the hypocrisy of meat eating, but how the hell am I supposed to know that? Would it have been that difficult to swap it to 'hamburger'? I appreciate accuracy, but when you just translate it as literally as possible with zero thought about "hey, is my target audience even going to understand this?" it really grates on my nerves. I know it's a fan translation and all, but geez.
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Jun 28, 2013 09:40
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:adding details, that could be a little weird, but if it's done to help convey the character of the narrator, then that's important too. Heh, the worst offender of lack of localization that I've played is definitely Cross Channel. Holy crap, the amount of translator notes added into that was pretty staggering.
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Jun 28, 2013 09:45
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Stall_19 posted:Heh, the worst offender of lack of localization that I've played is definitely Cross Channel. Holy crap, the amount of translator notes added into that was pretty staggering. I've never played Cross Channel, but that kind of sucks. It sounded okay (if I'm remembering right). The thing is, if they're THAT dedicated to accuracy, I wouldn't MIND them literally translating Japanese stuff - I think it's neat to learn about different cultures, and if there's a Tanabata festival in the game I'm not going to expect them to try and convert the whole thing into a Fourth of July celebration. I don't actually mind translator notes (though I know a lot of people do/consider them lazy and I can see why, I personally don't mind). There's some concepts you just can't easily translate into one or two english words. But there ARE no translator notes in Muv-Luv that I've seen except for a bit about archery in the readme. So if you're going to leave a bit in that will make zero sense even to someone familiar with anime, overlay a drat note in the top right corner or something. Just leaving a straight up untranslated joke in comes off less like 'accurate to the source material!!' and more like 'lazy'. 
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Jun 28, 2013 09:59
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The worst offender when it comes to transliteration in VNS is Aoishiro, I think. The whole thing just full of these because of all the japanese puns that are nearly impossible to translate. I can sort of understand that. However, "She's so genki" is inexcusable.
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Jun 28, 2013 12:12
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Official translations are (generally) better than fantranslations if both options are available, but I can't read Japanese so even a loving machine translation is better than nothing. If the translators want to be cyber-weebs I'll accept it till something better comes out.
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Jun 28, 2013 12:15
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"Liberal" translations aside, the problem with the mahoyo demo guy is that his comprehension of the Japanese lines was seriously shaky: 草十郎はクラスメイトたちが言うほど授業をつまらないものだと感じていない。[l][r] As far as Soujuurou could tell, his classmates weren’t bored at all.[l][r] 良いか悪いかで言えば、間違いなく良い部類に入る時間だ。 There were good periods and bad periods, and this was definitely one of the good ones. (Both of these lines are hilariously wrong)
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Jun 28, 2013 12:39
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Well, I finished Sumika's route in MLE. It felt like it got a lot more serious in tone near the end, or maybe I was just used to the absurdity of all of Meiya's connections. I actually felt pretty sad at Takeru having to pick between Sumika and Meiya. Sumika begging him to stop saying her name through the window because it hurt too much was pretty depressing  It was kind of a doofy game, but it was still sweet.I just have to bumrush Meiya's route to get to Unlimited, right? Maybe I'll do one or two of the side character routes.
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Jun 29, 2013 11:36
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:Well, I finished Sumika's route in MLE. It felt like it got a lot more serious in tone near the end, or maybe I was just used to the absurdity of all of Meiya's connections. I actually felt pretty sad at Takeru having to pick between Sumika and Meiya. Sumika begging him to stop saying her name through the window because it hurt too much was pretty depressing Yeah Sumika and Meiya's are the only required ones to get to Unlimited. If you're going to do a side route, do Ayamine's, it has the most relevance for later on.
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Jun 29, 2013 12:56
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Out of the side routes in Extra, I'd say that Tama's is actually surprisingly good and funny, despite the obvious issues, but not terribly relevant for the overall plot. Ayamine's is okay and some of the stuff comes up later, but Chizuru's route probably isn't worth the trouble. You can come back to it later if you want.
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Jun 29, 2013 13:46
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