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All right, people seem to be getting into things, so I'm going to push the stopping point up to chapter 6. Everything above this post can be unspoilered. The structure of this book lends itself to pretty short chunks. Even if someone isn't done with the first segment, there is still more than enough time to catch up and join in.
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Jun 10, 2013 23:59
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Now I may be overthinking it, but the rhyme always mentions "indian boys". I guess the original is just "niggers"?
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Jun 11, 2013 00:18
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Grawl posted:But I count 11 people inside the house. So the last one must be the murderer.  There's the 8 guests and then the two Rogers. There is also this Mr. Morris figure that has come up; he might be one of the 10 or someone else entirely.edit after reading to end of 6: Welp, forget what I said about Vera, bet she drowned Cyril intentionally so Hugo could come into money and marry her.  The doctor is pretty suspicious, since we really only have his word for it that people died the way he says they did. Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jun 13, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 00:34
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So, chapters 5-6: Tony Marston is really dead, then. The way ch. 4 ended, I was half expecting a fake-out and that he would be revived. According to the doctor, poisoned with cyanide, and not via the whiskey or soda (and others were drinking from the same bottles, so this is unlikely). It's probably not suicide, so that leaves tampering with his glass. He picks it up off the table in 4(ii), so someone might have been able to slip something in it at some point. Or he may have picked up the wrong glass, if he was not being specifically targeted. There appears to be no particular order that people would need to be killed off, to match the rhyme, at least yet. (Incidentally, is everyone's edition numbered the way mine is? Mine has something like 3-4 numbered subsections labelled in each chapter, but I'm wondering if all editions are that way.) General Macarthur seems to be losing it a bit, but clearly sent Richmond to his death. Vera looks less innocent in the death of Cyril than before. Allowed him to drown, so that Hugo would inherit (and then expected Hugo to marry her)? Mrs Rogers - the doctor looks most suspicious, since he's the one who medicated her the night before, and he's the one saying how people died. He's also probably the person best placed to get hold of poisons. However, we have good reason to believe that he was lured to the island. Note that Mr Rogers stays downstairs cleaning up as all the others are going up to bed, giving anyone the chance to get at the sleeping Mrs Rogers. Blore's idea in 6(ii) of Mr Rogers being responsible also seems possible, and we still don't yet know what Rogers is thinking. Hobnob fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jun 14, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 02:35
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General Macarthur is next. quote:Eight little soldier boys travelling in Devon; Need more info still, because these people MUST have someone in common. Zola fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jun 14, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 15:31
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OK, go ahead and read up to the end of Chapter 9. Everything above this post can be unspoilered.
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Jun 13, 2013 04:52
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Alright, my money is on Emily, since she has the weakest alibi.. Also, the last murder didn't fit the rhyme. Ten little Indian boys traveling in Devon; One said he'd stay there and then there were seven.
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Jun 13, 2013 10:54
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Chapters 7-9: So, they've realised it's murder and they're all going to be killed one by one. About time. (Of course, we have the benefit of knowing they're in a mystery story). Also, confirmed that no-one else is on the island. OK, Macarthur kicks it as expected. Interesting that it was obvious trauma - no more pussy-footing around with poisons and possible suicides. I wonder if there's a reason for that? Nobody is looking more or less likely to be the perp at the moment (except for Macarthur of course). The doctor is, as mentioned by Blore, in a prime position to have committed the murders, but nobody has been ruled out completely. I won't be terribly surprised if one of the murders eventually turns out to have been done by someone other than U.N. Owen (maybe one of the guests is relative of one of the other's victim, or something) - it'll probably be a good misleading red herring. Hobnob fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jun 14, 2013 01:47
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Grawl posted:Alright, my money is on Emily, since she has the weakest alibi.. The island is off of Sticklehaven in Devon, and MacArthur said he would stay, which is why I predicted he was next, but I can't tell who will be the next victim because they haven't started chopping anything yet. I also said in an earlier post that the people must have had someone in common. What they have in common is that apparently they have all committed murder but were not punished, but there must be one person that knows that about all of them. I think it may be significant that Mr. Rogers was seen serving drinks and within five minutes was in the room moving clothes around. I'm starting to get suspicious of him, but I don't know what his connection to the other people might be. There is still also the possibility that someone is hiding on the island, even if it has been searched by the group.
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Jun 15, 2013 03:39
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Sorry, I lost track of this thread for a while! Discussion has died down, so go ahead and read another two chapters, ending at the end of Chapter 11. Everything above this post can be unspoiled.
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Jun 16, 2013 21:47
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RIP Rogers. Hmm. Vera pointed out a very good thing about the timeline on when Macarthur died; the doctor did have the opportunity to kill him. I am also suspecting that there might be multiple murderers at this point. And everyone's crazy. Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 04:21
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I'm still sticking with the murderer I picked, although it's probably wrong. The things they have to say about the person makes sense though.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:55
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I was looking for something to read and found this thread so I figured it was worth a shot (until I prove myself completely clueless). So far I agree with Grawl, Emily seems very suspicious, and also seems to be coming unhinged, but that might just be to throw us off. I had already eliminated Rogers based on his internal monologue. He clearly had no idea about the Indian figurines. It sounded to me like he had possibly locked them up the night before so the murderer also had to know where he hid them to get them out again. Also now that he is dead, the murderer probably has his keys so other locked doors would be questionable. It also said that he locked up the pantry, but the women folk (who is going to cook for these men when they both die?) were still able to get food for breakfast.
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Jun 20, 2013 16:00
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Advance to the end of Chapter 13. Anything above this can be de-spoilered.
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Jun 21, 2013 21:14
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Well there goes my theory. I guess I just have to agree it is someone other than the main characters, perhaps the boatman. I mean, it can`t be Vera, Armstrong or Lombard. Blore did go downstairs on his own to get a new bottle of Brandy, but that is too obvious. On the other hand, wouldn`t he have notice the dead body? Can we already know who it is for sure at this point? Grawl fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 22, 2013 |
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Jun 22, 2013 17:11
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Grawl posted:Can we already know who it is for sure at this point? Not necessarily. I will tell you when all clues are presented.
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Jun 22, 2013 17:22
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Just posting to say that I've spent the last week or so reading through this thread and the books, and it's a really awesome idea. I've caught up now, except for The Ponson Case which I'm yet to track down a copy of - can't get it for Kindle in my country. I won't post any speculation for this one, since I've read it before - can't quite remember the ending, but don't want to accidentally draw attention to significant clues or anything. Looking forward to participating in the next book!
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Jun 23, 2013 09:22
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Grawl posted:Well there goes my theory. I guess I just have to agree it is someone other than the main characters, perhaps the boatman. I mean, it can`t be Vera, Armstrong or Lombard. Blore did go downstairs on his own to get a new bottle of Brandy, but that is too obvious. On the other hand, wouldn`t he have notice the dead body? I agree that it can't be Vera, but the way it is worded and through her confused viewpoint, it could be any of the others. Armstrong was the last one up the stairs and Blore and Lombard both went to go get brandy at some point. The more confusing part to me is that no one heard a gunshot? I suppose it could have been muffled somehow, but it also takes time to stage the body like that. I really don't think it is Lombard. There is a part near the beginning of chapter 13 that runs through all 5 of their thoughts. One of them sounds like the killer and one of the others is clearly Lombard ("I've been in tight places before"). Also when Rogers was found dead, you get a bit of his viewpoint and it seems like he was sleeping through it. Could just be more confusing wording though. If I had to guess right now, other than some outside character, I would go with Blore. He had a list of guests and we don't have any viewpoint to confirm his detective story, just his word for it. He also was some kind of cop so it's possible he learned about these people through investigations.
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Jun 24, 2013 14:18
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Also on Blore, he's very eager to jump to conclusions and accuse pretty much everyone else of being Mr. Owen. Is there any possibility the death was faked in some manner? They really only have the doctor's say-so that people died the way he says they did. Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Jun 28, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 05:00
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Rapidly approaching the end now. Read to the end of Chapter 15. No, this is not hte last segment before the final guess.
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Jun 25, 2013 16:34
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This book is bananas. Well since that eliminates everyone, here is my new crazy guess: Anthony Marston. I don't like the idea of it being an outside person and he was the first death and maybe faked it somehow. It doesn't sound like anyone is checking up on the corpses at least.
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Jun 25, 2013 19:26
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That didn't bring me any closer to the truth. I'm really curious about the ending.
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Jun 27, 2013 09:31
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Oh god what  Assuming it's not an outsider, then someone's death has to be faked. And, interestingly, if someone did fake their death that would mean that Armstrong is either an incompetent doctor or in on the whole thing. I hesitate to say he's Mr. Owen though, because of the "red herring" thing. But why would he collaborate with the real Mr. Owen (and not expect betrayal)?
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Jun 28, 2013 07:51
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I've been on holiday and idiotically forgot to pack the book, sorry. I'll just give my guess, even though I haven't read the later chapters, based on something I noticed earlier: Look again at the very first passage in the book. It doesn't say quite what you're meant to think it says. At no point does the Judge mention actually receiving that letter, just that the letter accurately reflects what one of his acquaintances would write like. I think he faked that letter and is behind the whole thing. I don't know what happens in the later chapters, but from discussion here I'm guessing everyone ends up dead. If my theory is true, then the Judge would have to be the last to die (or rigged the deaths after him somehow, maybe by faking his own). I guess I'll find out as soon as I get back.
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Jun 28, 2013 08:39
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Last segment time! Read everything up through the Epilogue. Everything above here can be unspoiled. Note that there is one more section past the Epilogue called "A Manuscript Document Sent to Scotland Yard by the Master of the Emma Jane Fishing Trawler". Do NOT read that, as that is where the solution is. Lock your guesses in, folks.
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Jun 28, 2013 15:38
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ProfessorProf posted:Last segment time! Read everything up through the Epilogue. Everything above here can be unspoiled. drat, that's actually a super interesting way to present the solution, I am kinda ticked at myself for skipping this one since I feel like I am missing out. Oh well, good luck everyone!
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Jun 28, 2013 16:10
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ProfessorProf posted:Last segment time! Read everything up through the Epilogue. Everything above here can be unspoiled. This is going to be so much fun to read for those of us who know the answer...
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Jun 28, 2013 16:11
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I didn't read the final part, but I was really tempted. And I really have no clue who did it, other than an outsider.
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Jun 29, 2013 23:49
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Well it can't be an outsider. Other than that being a really lame solution, they make a point of saying that no one could have gotten to the island because of the storm. I will just stay with my earlier guess which makes no sense to me but I don't have and idea who it really is.
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Jun 30, 2013 15:58
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Alright, I'm all caught up, to the end of the epilogue. My final theory: I'm staying with the Judge as U.N. Owen. My post above stands - his thoughts in the very first section of the book are artfully written, and don't actually state that he received that letter from Constance Culmington. Compare with the others' first-person thoughts in the rest of the chapter, where it's explicit that they were lured to the island. I think the letter is faked, so he can show it to the others on the island as a plausible reason for him being there. Two other things stand out, reading with this in mind: In 2(viii), Wargrave is thinking (after meeting Armstrong) "All doctors are damned fools. And Harley Street ones are the worst of the lot. And his mind dwelt malevolently on a recent interview he had had with a suave personage in that very street." Supposition: The Judge is dying of something incurable, which is why he's consulting a Harley Street doctor. (FYI, for those not in the know - Harley Street was (is still?) where you would find the practices of the best - or at least the most prestigious - specialists in the UK for any particular disease or condition.) Therefore he might not care too much about committing suicide as part of his scheme. In the epilogue, it's mentioned that Seton, who Wargrave forced the conviction of, turned out to be unmistakably guilty (by later evidence). So Wargrave's murder/killing is the odd one out - he's the only one who's "victim" was not innocent. This ties in with this section later in the epilogue: And Then There Were None posted:Maine coughed. He said: So: Wargrave, dying, picks 9 people guilty of murder but untouchable by the law. He's going to kill them in an elaborate plan as a last act of "justice" before killing himself. The Seton case is somewhat notorious and a plausible cover for him to fit in with the others. He's a judge, so details of many of the deaths would be easy for him to find - most had inquests and so on. And he is clearly "some fanatic with a bee in his bonnet about justice". Lombard says as much about him in chapter 10. The question is, how did he do it? He's the sixth person to die - and could not possibly engineer the death of Blore, at the very least, from beyond the grave. Also it's clear from the epilogue that someone was alive after Vera Claythorne committed suicide - someone put the chair back. The only possible answer is that he didn't die when we think he did. Armstrong examines Wargrave's body briefly, but is clearly not doing well at that point - he's "reeling a little, as he walked like a drunken man". The gunshot wound must be faked, and somehow his (non-)pulse too. The Judge drugs himself into a deep sleep so he can be carried into his room as if lifeless (maybe that drug also suppresses his pulse?). Note that nobody actually hears the supposed gunshot that kills him, and the revolver is not found until later - not at the scene of Wargrave's presumed death, because it was never there. So, he recovers from the sleeping drug, then follows Armstrong out that night and drowns him. He's ready in the house when Blore returns and gets him with the marble clock. With only two left, it's obvious one is going to kill the other, and he's deliberately reintroduced the pistol into things. Then it's just a matter of setting the scene to encourage Vera to commit suicide, tidying up, and finally going to his room and shooting himself with the pistol in the head, to match the injury as described in the other's diaries. Note the final location where the pistol is discovered - in Wargrave's room. (Morris I'm not so sure about - if it was murder, it was done the 1st night when they were all on the island. So I'm not sure how that fits at all.)
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Jul 1, 2013 07:21
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That's a good theory. I noticed that passage and thought the same thing about Wargrave, but it seems like a bullet wound would be too hard to fake. Plus it should be easy for the police to tell whether he shot himself. Did they have anything like GSR back then? Even if not, then by the positioning or something.
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Jul 1, 2013 13:30
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From the epilogue it seems indeed the murdered must have killed himself. It also exonerates Vera, as she can't have moved the chair when she died. For similar reasons Armstrong is exonerated - he can't have moved his own body. This means the murderer must have faked his own death. This seems to exclude ways of dying that are a hard to fake: Lombard (gunshot to heart by Vera), Blore (head crushed), Rogers (head split open). Despite the above theory I'd say Wargrave too. Armstrong "lifted the lifeless hand and felt for the pulse". Though if Armstrong is indeed not reliable by that point, your theory is very good. On page 188 we seem to see the thoughts of the killer though: "I must keep my head...him", which to me suggest he's setting up the trap in Vera's room and considering whom of the others to take out, settling on Wargrave. Armstrong also investigates Ethel Rogers and there is some mention of cold hands, so I'd mark her down as truly dead too. This falls apart if Armstrong is in on it and there's not just 1 killer. This leaves Marston, Brent and MacArthur. Marston and MacArthur are also investigated by Armstrong upon his death, though it's less clear how thoroughly he does it. When Armstrong investigates Brent, he does it very superficially (sniffed the lips and peered into the eyelids). The bee and the needle sting in the neck may be red herring to detract from her not being totally dead. In addition to that: - She has mutual friends with MacArthur and might know his story. - She considers herself innocent. - She's "righteous and with unyielding principles". - She would like to make an example of certain people. - She's clearly implied to be going nuts by some of thought processes. And perhaps she eventually does and starts to feel guilty. Page 152: "The murderer's name is Beatrice Taylor."..."I must be going mad." Also compare to the "I must keep my head" later on. - On page 169 "The damned fool, he believed every word..." This is after they catch her coming back from outside with a raincoat, shortly before Rogers is found dead. That's the best I can come up with. It doesn't entirely click, though.
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Jul 2, 2013 14:06
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Give me a day or so to collect my thoughts, but I strongly suspect Armstrong helped Wargrave (or Brent, hasn't really thought of her) fake his/her death.
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Jul 4, 2013 14:21
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Okay, reread and I'm feeling pretty confident that Armstrong was collaborating with at least Wargrave (Hobnob's theory is pretty convincing IMO) and perhaps one other, any of Marston, Brent, or MacArthur as per above. I don't know what his motive to collaborate would be, but that's for the epilogue. And then Wargrave betrayed him. As for faking his death, I imagine that that's why he needed Armstrong, so they could fake it together.
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Jul 6, 2013 22:09
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All right, we've been on this final segment for long enough to go ahead and finish the book. Ending spoilers:Some excellent deductions in the last couple segments! Not everything spot on, but you got the gist of it, at least. In retrospect, I feel like this book might work better as something to read on one's own than for this thread, though.
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Jul 6, 2013 22:15
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It took a lot of willpower to not just read the ending, but I wanted to be a good boy. loving hell, I was pretty close with the "so no one saw the body" theory, but the question should have been "so no one heard a gunshot?". I liked this much better than the last book. Hope we'll read a new book soon.
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Jul 7, 2013 01:42
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Man, you and everyone deserve a medal for not reading ahead, I don't know if I could do it. I distinctively remember that when I first read it I figured "Yeah, gonna read a few chapters and then go to sleep..." and before I knew it I was done with the whole thing and it was three in the morning.
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Jul 7, 2013 07:19
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ProfessorProf posted:
I thought it was quite interesting to read the other theories, for what it's worth, though I came late to this thread and read the book in 1 go. Hobnob+Autumncomet pretty much called it perfectly. I rejected this kind of theory it because I thought the idea of 2 accomplices was a bit too complicated/far-fetched and brought too many issues of motivation for the accomplice even if it did explain some things better. "The handwriting was practically illegible but words here and there stood out with unexpected clarity". Indeed the solution is on page 1 :-) Nobody sends a letter like that. I had no problem not reading the ending because by doing so you give up your chance to form a better theory. Good thing there's more books to be read...
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Jul 7, 2013 08:21
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Ha! I was almost correct. The bit with the doctor not realizing it was a fake gunshot wound was always the weakest part of my theory. I wasn't thinking of a short-term alliance with the doctor, only a long-term conspiracy, and other things ruled that out. Ironically, it was chasing a red-herring (I was sure one of the guests would be associated with one of the other's victims) that lead me to re-read all the intros, looking for common names in the character's backgrounds. I didn't find any, but it made me realize how carefully Wargrave's bit was written, and what it did and didn't say. Roll on the next one. Incidentally, Dorothy L. Sayers' Clouds of Witness is only $1.99 on kindle right now.
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Jul 7, 2013 16:56
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Well I did enjoy the book, but I think the part with the elastic and the gun was a little farfetched and impossible to figure out. Also using mud or clay for a bullet wound seems rather silly. But you guys pretty much got it!
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Jul 7, 2013 18:28
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