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Deteriorata posted:Are you referring to the outline of the water? That doesn't match the shape of the rock. Okay, I'm saying the outline is like a 99% match to an object that is only 75% drawn, 
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Jul 1, 2013 01:00
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Urban Smurf posted:Okay, I'm saying the outline is like a 99% match to an object that is only 75% drawn, Get out Gimp and overlay them. They don't match. They're close, but not the same. Hundreds of rocks would be equally close. You have to be a bit more critical of your own ideas.
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Jul 1, 2013 01:02
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Deteriorata posted:Get out Gimp and overlay them. They don't match. They're close, but not the same. Hundreds of rocks would be equally close. You have to be a bit more critical of your own ideas. No. Youre overthinking it. That isnt just any rock. Its very iconic. Everyone who travels the coast wth a camera takes a picture of it. It looks very different from every angle. You are being unreasonable if you assume we have access to the exact angle from which Preiss took his photo. People are way too nuts about finding exact matches.
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Jul 1, 2013 01:10
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Urban Smurf posted:No. Youre overthinking it. That isnt just any rock. Its very iconic. Everyone who travels the coast wth a camera takes a picture of it. It looks very different from every angle. You are being unreasonable if you assume we have access to the exact angle from which Preiss took his photo. People are way too nuts about finding exact matches. No, you're being under-critical. That particular angle may actually be the best possible match and any other angle would look far worse. You're substituting what you want it to be for what it actually is.
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Jul 1, 2013 01:18
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Deteriorata posted:No, you're being under-critical. That particular angle may actually be the best possible match and any other angle would look far worse. You're substituting what you want it to be for what it actually is. I did think it looked familiar. I then thought, could Haystack Rock make a good iconic reference? Maybe. So I posted it as such. I'm looking at the big picture while you're splitting hairs. There's a lot of well known land marks in any state. It happens that Haystack Rock is a big one. Mount Hood is a big one. Mount St. Helens was a big one too, but then it blew in 1980 and that plume of ash made national attention. An ash plume rising into the sky is perfect for substituion with "wingless bird ascending / born of ancient dreams of flight". A lot of poetic cooperation there since bird/plume and dream(sleep)/volcano(dormant) could be the simple association Preiss intended. Those lines bring a mountain into focus because it becomes relevant to solving what rock is to be the "white stone" in verse 5. I just discovered that a nearby landmark named Rooster Rock could be indicative of the bird drawn on the rock. In a rock themed puzzle, it makes perfect sense that Haystack be the iconic shape to find rather than the shape of the state. I'd like to think Ponce on top of the rock is him playing "king of the mountain". I know nothing I'm saying is how people want to think these puzzles are suppose to be solved. I'm having a go at keeping it connected to a big picture model rather than finding lots of loose random connections to justify lots of GPR coverage of random spots in FOY. Actually, St. Augustine has something going for it. It's a major hot spot for tourism. Everything about my location in Corbett is about tourism. Urban Smurf fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 01:50
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Urban Smurf posted:No. Youre overthinking it. That isnt just any rock. Its very iconic. Everyone who travels the coast wth a camera takes a picture of it. It looks very different from every angle. You are being unreasonable if you assume we have access to the exact angle from which Preiss took his photo. People are way too nuts about finding exact matches. I think the point is that if it kind of looks like half of a certain rock from a certain angle then it probably kind of looks like halves of many rocks from certain angles. The rock isn't particularly distinctive in shape, or markings, and the match isn't so amazingly accurate to make up for that. quote:I can't solve you're personal problems Hey, I'm as well adjusted as any armchair treasure hunter digging through a 30-year old paperback and arguing online about the shapes of rocks! 
Very Nice Eraser fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 01:56
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Is there a not-dead wiki on this yet?
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Jul 1, 2013 02:05
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Very Nice Eraser posted:I think the point is that if it kind of looks like half of a certain rock from a certain angle then it probably kind of looks like halves of many rocks from certain angles. The rock isn't particularly distinctive in shape, or markings, and the match isn't so amazingly accurate to make up for that. I'm sure a 1000 people a day look at that prominent landmark from whichever angle and say "there's Haystack Rock". There's so much to consider here. If it's good enough of a match, then be done with it. If you think it's just an unintentional outline from the artist's hand, then fine, back to thinking the big negative space shape is exactly Florida. Let's make some progress. Define the underlying concepts that might be at play in these puzzles. Preiss is breaking patterns and that's why we're being fooled. He has one or two landmarks drawn in sharp detail, then he starts to deviate and choose different kinds of landmarks or only has a partial piece of it drawn in. It is much harder to recognize a 75% image, but not impossible. Another example of his pattern breaking: he draws easy to read numbers for lat / long hints, then he draws stretched numbers, hidden numbers, and possibly partial or rotated or spit digits. We have to adapt to more possibilities and stop looking for big dumb simple exact things.
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Jul 1, 2013 02:09
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Bwee posted:Urban Smurf you seriously sound like someone with a mental disorder, your theories are conspiracy-theory-level bad quote:
Urban Smurf posted:No. Youre overthinking it. That isnt just any rock. Its very iconic. Everyone who travels the coast wth a camera takes a picture of it. It looks very different from every angle. You are being unreasonable if you assume we have access to the exact angle from which Preiss took his photo. People are way too nuts about finding exact matches. GWBBQ fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 02:14
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Urban Smurf posted:If you think it's just an unintentional outline from the artist's hand, then fine, back to thinking the big negative space shape is exactly Florida. The negative space is definitely not the best match for Florida. However, Florida is a pretty distinctive shape, unlike a trapezoidal rock, so I'm willing to allow a little artistic license. But you're right in that we need an explanation for what the rock is doing there. I originally thought that it's just there to make the palm tree be a 'tall tree', so that the line 'at the base of a tall tree' means 'at the base of a palm tree'. But that's not necessarily the best explanation, since 'a palm tree' isn't particularly more specific than 'a tall tree' here in Florida... Except for my theory that pins the rest of the clues down to a small area with exactly one palm tree. Unfortunately after chatting with the property owner, I doubt whether that particular palm tree was there in 1982. Edit: I'm not proud of that grammar... Very Nice Eraser fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 02:27
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I think that the white parts of the rock look a little like a coastline, but it could easily be nothing at all.
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Jul 1, 2013 02:29
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The Monkey Man posted:I think that the white parts of the rock look a little like a coastline, but it could easily be nothing at all. I spent god-knows-how-long trying to match it up to coastline, particularly because the lines look like inlets. But I eventually gave up when I saw the differences in coastline among different maps, satellite views, years, etc.
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Jul 1, 2013 02:35
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The coastline thing comes up a lot but would be unprecedented. The only map we know of is the map of Ohio, and that seemed to take quite a while to surface in the first place. I'm not saying they aren't there, but a lot of time has been spent with almost zero results. If you are a believer in the rough outline of Illinois in the Grant Park painting, then there's nothing wrong with the FL outline. I'm not sure that wasn't just a coincidence though, it's a very rough outline. edit: Is there an outline in the Roanoke one? That's the painting I'm least familiar with.
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Jul 1, 2013 03:00
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LankyIndjun posted:Is there a not-dead wiki on this yet? There really should be.
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Jul 1, 2013 03:00
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:There really should be. I had issue both of the 2 times I tried setting one up, either with the wiki people or the physical web page but if someone is more familiar/competent on the finer points of it by all means your welcome to give it a shot, I have most of the thread transcribed as it it we'd just need an effective way to organize all the theories.
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Jul 1, 2013 03:08
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xie posted:The coastline thing comes up a lot but would be unprecedented. The only map we know of is the map of Ohio, and that seemed to take quite a while to surface in the first place. I'm not saying they aren't there, but a lot of time has been spent with almost zero results. I don't think that it's actually a coastline (especially given where we think it is), it just looks like it could be one. On the other hand, image 2 also has a map of Charleston that's way too close to be a coincidence.
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Jul 1, 2013 03:22
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allta posted:I had issue both of the 2 times I tried setting one up, either with the wiki people or the physical web page but if someone is more familiar/competent on the finer points of it by all means your welcome to give it a shot, I have most of the thread transcribed as it it we'd just need an effective way to organize all the theories. Wikia lets you set up wikis pretty easily I believe. Setting one up from scratch isn't difficult, but probably not necessary.
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Jul 1, 2013 03:27
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xie posted:The coastline thing comes up a lot but would be unprecedented. The only map we know of is the map of Ohio, and that seemed to take quite a while to surface in the first place. I'm not saying they aren't there, but a lot of time has been spent with almost zero results. Yes, there is an outline of the shape of Roanoke Island. 
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Jul 1, 2013 03:39
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Cask 12 The red bordered rectangle on the picture reminds me of an arch in a wall. The center of the rectangle is the same color as the background for the image and the red could represent brickwork. The picture below is of an unrelated arch but is a good representation of what it could look like. 
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Jul 1, 2013 03:46
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45 Degrees posted:Cask 12 Has Ellis Island been brought up for this cask? It has a prominent feature that resembles the rectangle:  Also, maybe part at the top of the top of the arch that the bird wings cuts out matches the angles on the triangular bit that juts out of the island. Of course, you have the Statue of Liberty right next to it, too. The main building has domed towers, but they aren't onion domes. The big arches at the top have square windows that sort of reflects the arch in the picture. 
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Jul 1, 2013 05:21
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It has, but (I ask this seriously, not sarcastically) could someone actually dig there, even in the 1980s?
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Jul 1, 2013 05:45
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xie posted:It has, but (I ask this seriously, not sarcastically) could someone actually dig there, even in the 1980s? Yeah, that's something that I hadn't stopped to consider. The wikipedia article suggests that the south side is mostly abandoned and has been for quite some time. It also says that it's off limits to the general public, though I have no idea if that was true in the 1980s. Reading a bit more, it seems that the only way for a regular person to access the island is via the ferry and the bridge is restricted. Since the only times to do anything would be during ferry operating hours he would have had to do his digging during the day while walking around with a shovel. So really unlikely unless things were a lot looser back then. Welp. Also it's currently closed because of Hurricane Sandy with no scheduled date to reopen, so there's no way to check it out on foot even if someone were interested. edit: there are a couple of interesting things over the water in Liberty State Park, though. I'll look back in the thread and see what's already been discussed. Thanks. Guuse fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 06:13
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I'm happy to throw a wiki up on my hosting (where it could remain indefinitely; the server isn't going anywhere), but don't have time to moderate it. If there's interest, I can get one set up today. e: this would have a bunch of advantages over Wikia, including better admin/moderator control and a lack of ridiculous ads. e2: gently caress it, I'm going to set one up when I get to the office. PM me if you have ideas for moderators, etc; we're going to want some thread regulars to keep the full-on crazy to a minimum
Meat Street fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 13:36
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Urban Smurf, I'm not going to discount all your ideas outright, but I will say that as someone with no vested interest in where this particular cask is (as in any case it would be too far for me to go to), the St. Augustine theory makes more sense from what we know about Preiss than your theory does. In the casks we know about and the ones we have good evidence for, he has yet to resort to trigonometry, for example, and while this may be the one puzzle where he does resort to trigonometric relationships, I would not bet on it. And as you yourself mentioned, Occam's razor is always important - does it make more sense that Preiss meant for the painting to be taken at face value or does it make more sense that he put red herrings in to throw people off of what was in 1982 a rather difficult path, what without there being search engines and the internet. In 1982 there really wouldn't have been an expeditious way for people to collaborate on this project, either, so I doubt he would have thrown in red herrings to confuse people who already were going to have a hard time. Granted Preiss thought the puzzles would be solved quickly, but he either attributed that to the fact that they were, in his mind, very easy puzzles (and thus devoid of red herrings) or that other people would solve them very quickly, and so threw in red herrings to make them take longer (but then why say they are easy if he made them hard). The easy-puzzle-with-no-red-herrings makes more sense to me. But anyway thanks for your different approach, new ideas never hurt.
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Jul 1, 2013 15:51
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Wiki is online: http://secretwiki.tomburns.net You'll need an account, but feel free to sign up and start editing; I've tested image uploads and it looks like we're all set.
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Jul 1, 2013 16:36
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Meat Street posted:I'm happy to throw a wiki up on my hosting (where it could remain indefinitely; the server isn't going anywhere), but don't have time to moderate it. If there's interest, I can get one set up today. May I suggest a site where we can store pics and theories for quick reference? There are a ton of old images and ideas on q4T/tweleve that should be compiled. This way anybody can just look at all the work already done over the years very quickly.
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Jul 1, 2013 16:38
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Cosmik Debris, thank you, that about sums it up. It's difficult any way you look at it. 31 years is a testament to that. I've established a firm basis for my approach: not being a complete pussy. I think it takes balls to step up and do something different when nothing else has worked for so long. My presumptions are as follows: 1) not all casks are equal. Easy ----- Moderate ----- Hard ----- Extreme(Red-Herrings) #4/#5 ----- #1/#8 ----- #7/#11 ----- #6/#9 (this is just an approximation) 2) Use a library, use a regular road map, consider tourist hot spots, current events and national news 3) Consider alternate definitions, idioms, and any mythological connections (let you're ideas be flexible based on real possibilities 4) Be on the lookout for metaphors and themes. 5) Avoid but still consider some homophonic references: heir = air, etc. 6) Always be aware of simple orienteering and what in the prospective surroundings makes good sense towards determining an exact spot. There's some very basic ways to do that, there's some creative ways, it just depends. Anyone who has learned how to put a compass down on a map knows that is a basic tool and it would be foolish to say Preiss didn't utilize such a method in at least one of his locations. 7) Hold you're illustration up to you're site and see if something fits like a polaroid. It will be obvious if you need no rotation, 90 or 180 degrees, but crazy rotations like 12.5, 25, or 55 degrees are very unlikely. Cask 1 looks like it uses a 45 degree, which makes sense since the Palace of the Legion of Honor is actually faced 45 degrees northeast. As far as I can tell, most people are stuck in this mode, 1) take it at face value, look for exact fits (ignore partial fits or riddles), (empricism: it worked for cask 4 and 5, so it should work for all others) 2) find enough fits in an area, look for dig dirt (That's all well and good, but how's that working for you all?)
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Jul 1, 2013 16:41
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rookhunter posted:May I suggest a site where we can store pics and theories for quick reference? You can upload images to the wiki once you've signed up; go hog wild.
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Jul 1, 2013 16:44
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Meat Street posted:Wiki is online: http://secretwiki.tomburns.net Thanks!
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Jul 1, 2013 16:57
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rookhunter posted:May I suggest a site where we can store pics and theories for quick reference? It would make sense to organize each page as "current consensus idea" and "other possibilities". Something I have noticed on other sites is the tendency to coalesce around a single idea/interpretation too quickly without due consideration and respect for alternate ideas, with the consensus idea being defended as some sort of personal turf war. All alternate ideas are not created equally, however, so somebody has to make some value judgments as to their reasonableness and how much prominence they should be given. It is a complicated balancing act, as no idea is actually right or wrong until we dig up a casque. We need to get them all in one place though, as what the rest of us think is a hare-brained idea may trigger some connection in somebody else's head, leading to a correct solution somewhere else.
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Jul 1, 2013 17:00
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xie posted:The coastline thing comes up a lot but would be unprecedented. The only map we know of is the map of Ohio, and that seemed to take quite a while to surface in the first place. I'm not saying they aren't there, but a lot of time has been spent with almost zero results. I also did a side-by-side of the image that went with the Grant Park/Illinois cask and an outline of Illinois and I think it's too close to be coincidence. It's not 100% perfect, but the artist was painting these by hand, without the use of Photoshop layers to make sure that he had everything 100%. One thing that I think is particularly convincing is the left "straight" edge of Illinois being created by a line with a hook running down to hold up the ear flap on the goblin dude's hat. There's not really any good reason as far as the illustration goes for him to have that weird pulley system attached to his hat, unless it's to create a boundary for the edge of Illinois. I'm attaching the side-by-side image I made. Let me know if it doesn't show up. It's not overlaid because I haven't made an animated gif in a decade and I no longer remember how.
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Jul 1, 2013 17:04
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Deteriorata posted:It would make sense to organize each page as "current consensus idea" and "other possibilities". Something I have noticed on other sites is the tendency to coalesce around a single idea/interpretation too quickly without due consideration and respect for alternate ideas, with the consensus idea being defended as some sort of personal turf war. I like that idea. There has been a general disorganization with this hunt that I think hurts the chances of finding a casque. If we take a more scientific approach where personal feelings are are taken out of the equation, we night start to make more progress. For example, there has been a real lack of collaboration on ideas for dig spots. There have been several digs in New Orleans, SC, FL, San Fran yet we don't really know where. If we have a map/list of places we have already put shovel to ground we would know where not to dig or which areas need further investigation. In places like FL where digging might be very limited it will help.
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Jul 1, 2013 17:12
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Mnemosyne posted:I also did a side-by-side of the image that went with the Grant Park/Illinois cask and an outline of Illinois and I think it's too close to be coincidence. It's not 100% perfect, but the artist was painting these by hand, without the use of Photoshop layers to make sure that he had everything 100%. One thing that I think is particularly convincing is the left "straight" edge of Illinois being created by a line with a hook running down to hold up the ear flap on the goblin dude's hat. There's not really any good reason as far as the illustration goes for him to have that weird pulley system attached to his hat, unless it's to create a boundary for the edge of Illinois. As somehow who learned illustration and commercial art in community college in the pre-computer age of 1983, we had art projectors that would allow an artist to project any image at any size onto an art board. Shapes, lines, etc could be drawn completely accurately from a map or a photograph. If the artist intended the shape to represent the outline of Illinois it would match exactly. Art projectors were very much the standard for this work going back to the Renaissance and I would be willing to bet my left nut sack that this artist was no different in his use of the tool.
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Jul 1, 2013 17:39
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Milwaukeeblurradial posted:This is the exact year that Preiss would have been in town, and would have known that the Lincoln statue would return to the bridge in a few years. Preiss believed his treasure hunt would be solved in a matter of months, not years or even decades. Also, we have no evidence that Preiss would have known that the statue's home was temporary. He wasn't a local. Anyway, the statue was there, and we should keep it in mind. That's all. blurradial posted:As for that parking structure with the block pattern -- it's a bit of a stretch. Not to defend my own find here, but the pattern is an exact match. It's the only place in town we've seen this pattern, and it's right in the area where our clues are pointing to and on a major street. The pattern is not just in one small spot either, it extends the length of block. There are 2 full blocks of this pattern, on both the north and east side of the building. Edit: I mean, the pattern is prominent enough that I recognized it while driving past it. Dr. Bit fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 17:47
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Neutrino posted:As somehow who learned illustration and commercial art in community college in the pre-computer age of 1983, we had art projectors that would allow an artist to project any image at any size onto an art board. Shapes, lines, etc could be drawn completely accurately from a map or a photograph. If the artist intended the shape to represent the outline of Illinois it would match exactly. Art projectors were very much the standard for this work going back to the Renaissance and I would be willing to bet my left nut sack that this artist was no different in his use of the tool. Yeah, if it's supposed to look like Illinois then the distortion of it has to be deliberate. It may be that he thought an exact outline would be too obvious/easy, or making the outline exact would change the shape of other, more important, elements, or perhaps he was just lazy and called it good enough. He certainly could have made an exact match of the state map if he'd wanted to. The artist will probably never tell us. Or it could be entirely accidental with no deliberate imitation of the state shape at all. We might just be seeing something that isn't actually there. Our brains will invent patterns out of random noise because it's the way we're programmed. Regardless, it helped them find the casque so it's all good. It just reinforces the caution not to get too carried away with a single element.
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Jul 1, 2013 17:48
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Maybe we should do some type of rating or voting system for alternate ideas? That is to say everyone gets to rate three theories (1st to 3rd) with 1 being their 1st pick, 2 the second pick (less likely than 1st but more possible than 3rd), etc. This way people will at least have some incentive to read something other than the predominant theory. so you can read the highest rated theory and then directly underneath it read the second highest rated, and then third highest rated. Then have all the others in no particular order and each user can rate any of the theories as their top 3. I dunno I'm just trying to think of something that won't involve one person deciding which theories are the most relevant. If it matters, at all. Deteriorata posted:Yeah, if it's supposed to look like Illinois then the distortion of it has to be deliberate. It may be that he thought an exact outline would be too obvious/easy, or making the outline exact would change the shape of other, more important, elements, or perhaps he was just lazy and called it good enough. He certainly could have made an exact match of the state map if he'd wanted to. The artist will probably never tell us. It's possible that the artist distorted it because it was so obvious to him. If you've ever done those hidden object puzzles that Highlights for kids always does, then you know that if you know where something is hidden, its really obvious and you can't "unsee" it, but you might look at it a thousand times and miss it. So maybe the artist obscured it because he thought it was a dead giveaway. And of course it's equally possible that's just a really strange coincidence. Cosmik Debris fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 18:00
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I've stubbed out pages for each cask on the wiki, and added them to a category that's linked from the front page. More to come... feel free to jump in, getting things copy/pasted is going to be the first order of business.
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Jul 1, 2013 18:12
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Cosmik Debris posted:Maybe we should do some type of rating or voting system for alternate ideas? That is to say everyone gets to rate three theories (1st to 3rd) with 1 being their 1st pick, 2 the second pick (less likely than 1st but more possible than 3rd), etc. This way people will at least have some incentive to read something other than the predominant theory. How about a system where we vote on elements of an idea not so much the theory itself. Using NC as an example: People would vote on the interpretation of "Ride the man of oz..." = Washington Baum bridge This way we can see which theories have the best chance of success based on the number of elements with the highest votes. Same for visual matches. just an idea. rookhunter fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 18:27
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There's a heavy amount of traffic involved in estimating the capabilities Preiss and Palencar. There may be some lack of regard for how resourceful and witty people were before the internet age. In some ways the internet makes this hunt harder. When Preiss created this hunt he was at the mercy of some limitations. What he designed as a challenge required a person to follow his clues. He and artist used a simple format of verse and image combo to guide the discerning hunter. If a random jumble of clues worked well enough to establish an exact spot, then that allows a fairly broad hunter base to land on a clue and piece things together that much more quickly. If it requires ascertaining a specific start spot and then keeping on a path (hopefully one which remains intact today or has an existing archive of references to adapt to 30 years of change), then it becomes somewhat more difficult as it's a singular approach. Sorting out what is a major clue vs a minor clue in this format is heavily limited based on subjectivity. The most reasonable approach so far has been: 1) major clue: state shape, 2) major clue: tall iconic structure in city, 3) specifics and minor references: road names, "begin's with the letter...", statues, etc., and 4) match the exact shape of something near, 5) follow instructions - at the end of 10x13, beneath the tenth stone. After lots of irregular debate and hair splitting on what exact means, people are starting to admit that things are close enough. It's art. Most art is just close enough. Palencar is an expert free-hand artist now, it's a safe bet he was a free hand artist then. My background in learning to draw birds, insects, and animals freehand by studying the collection of Audubon Field Guides and then drew pet store ads for the newspaper in 1979-1981 helps me appreciate Palencar on a personal level. His stuff is good. It doesn't need to be a projector rendered perfect fit. It only needs to spark something in someone so that they can anchor their pursuit and work of the right verse/image pairing. Before people spent so much time browsing the internet, they had books and reference at the local library, they had their parents driving them around scenic landmarks, taking the ferry, going to the zoo, buying collectibles from the gift shop at St.Augustine (I have a set of platters from there), and appreciating the artifacts of our nation's history. As the remaining images don't seem to play well with the schema that's been honed from cask's 4 and 5, I can't understand why people are so unwilling to abandon that approach and step it up a notch. Without the state shape or the clearcut lat/long, the schema needs to evolve.
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Jul 1, 2013 18:41
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rookhunter posted:How about a system where we vote on elements of an idea not so much the theory itself. Using NC as an example: People would vote on the interpretation of "Ride the man of oz..." = Washington Baum bridge If the wiki is structured right, you won't even need that. Abstract the main images and verses into an intro group of pages and then create a master link page for each image OR verse separately with links of each line/image clip interpretation proof broken down in the smaller pages. If a theory is sound enough, fine, give that it's own page linking the appropriate interpretation of each line/clipping. I think if the burden of proof is the body of each line/clipping with links to related interpretations, it will force people to examine their theory as a whole and how it relates to all the other parts instead of just "a page" of rambling about a single theory. I'm probably not describing my thoughts well so, I'll just say that I'd rather see a grouping of each possible interpretation of a single line listed on a page and navigate from there to see if someone has already thought the same thing I have about a specific part. If we just have "theory pages" it's going to be a mess and a ton of overlapping.
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Jul 1, 2013 18:46
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