|
Autonomous Monster posted:I refuse to believe that an area the size of Germany was anywhere even close to maxed out, supporting a population of a million. Something that needs to be considered is that they have only been inhabiting this area for 106 years. At most their original population is going to have doubled and the infrastructure in place is going to be built for supporting that number. Regardless of how much space you have, dumping 200,000 extra people into a place intended to support 400,000 is not going to end well. I'm not sure if this the way the author intended for us to take it though. I think the size of walls/population of humans is one of the things he thought through the implications of the least. The walls all around feel like they should be shorter than they are stated to be. I think he probably just decided on the length of the walls and the number of people separately, then forgot to reconcile those numbers afterwards.
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 13:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
Pensive posted:Regardless of how much space you have, dumping 200,000 extra people into a place intended to support 400,000 is not going to end well. Oh, sure. It's just that I seem to spend half my time these days pouring over mediaeval demographics and potential food yield algorithms, so whenever I see the Titan numbers my eyes cross over and I start foaming at the mouth and shouting "bullshit!" Though, you would have thought a society with that much land to spare and that sort of external threat would have concentrated as much of its population in the centre as possible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 13:49
|
|
|
What's more implausible to me is how they could've built a 50m wall around an area the size of Germany with a population of only about a million people, using 17th-early 19th century era technology.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 15:19
|
|
|
I think it's been said repeatedly that the walls were already there when the fugitives arrived.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 15:19
|
|
|
I think it was said that most of the agriculture was within wall maria, so when it fell most of the farming land was lost. Plus the largest chunk of land was outside Rose, so the amount of space the humans have left is about 60% of the space they had before.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 16:23
|
|
|
Kabanaw posted:I think it was said that most of the agriculture was within wall maria, so when it fell most of the farming land was lost. Plus the largest chunk of land was outside Rose, so the amount of space the humans have left is about 60% of the space they had before. And isn't the center rather mountaineous, too? Mountains make for poor-ish farmland. Given that Eren & Co. were quickly put to work recovering farmland it is also not unlikely that the land inside Rose just wasn't prepared for farming, and they could decide if they wanted to use the grain they had to feed the population or if they wanted to retain it as seeds. The question of constructing the walls has been answered, hasn't it? The walls consist of Titans. They shut down if they aren't exposed to sunlight
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 17:39
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:What's more implausible to me is how they could've built a 50m wall around an area the size of Germany with a population of only about a million people, using 17th-early 19th century era technology. (carefully checks what thread he's in). Except that they weren't using 17th-19th-century technology, were they?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 17:45
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:The question of constructing the walls has been answered, hasn't it? The walls consist of Titans. They shut down if they aren't exposed to sunlight Oh yes! That's right, I somehow had the most bizarre lapse of memory about that! Strange considering it's one of the more important points. Serves me right for posting right after I'd just woke up in the morning!
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 18:09
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:And isn't the center rather mountaineous, too? Mountains make for poor-ish farmland. Given that Eren & Co. were quickly put to work recovering farmland it is also not unlikely that the land inside Rose just wasn't prepared for farming, and they could decide if they wanted to use the grain they had to feed the population or if they wanted to retain it as seeds. Yes, the center district is dominated by a mountain, which is the source of their metal and the source of the rivers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 18:12
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:Though, you would have thought a society with that much land to spare and that sort of external threat would have concentrated as much of its population in the centre as possible. That makes logical sense but would undermine the class warfare aspect of the plot that seems like it will come into play later in the series. We keep getting hints about how luxurious things are within Wall Sina, such as the fact that there are extremely wealthy individuals living underneath the capital city and (at least in the anime) the Military Police are little more than glorified bodyguards for the ruling class, spending their days watching oligarchs play chess and feast.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 18:16
|
|
|
Kassad posted:Eren's burning rage eventually grows so intense he turns into a God Warrior and he wipes out all the titans in an orgy of nuclear fire. But Mikasa dies of radiation poisoning. And that is the story of how Eren Jaeger lived.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 18:22
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:I refuse to believe that an area the size of Germany was anywhere even close to maxed out, supporting a population of a million. I mean, carrying capacity depends a lot on the specifics of climate, soil types, staple crops and agricultural techniques, but a modestly fertile area with a warm continental climate growing wheat should be able to support something between ten and thirty million. And probably towards the upper end, if they're growing the almighty potato. Germany hasn't had less than a million people in it since before people invented ploughs. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 19:27
|
|
|
Kabanaw posted:I think it was said that most of the agriculture was within wall maria, so when it fell most of the farming land was lost. Plus the largest chunk of land was outside Rose, so the amount of space the humans have left is about 60% of the space they had before. I thought the Wall radii were set to be 33% each if I remember that one commercial break panel in the anime. It's in the manga somewhere, too. Despite their inability to farm with 17th century tech, they managed to build spiderman gear, super swords, and harvest all that gas. Can't build a simple trip wire though.  Though there appears to be some discrepancies, especially when shown overhead or something.  The walls are incredibly long, how could they have had enough colossal titans to build all those walls? Still, I am not sure the point of living in the inner walls or even having the places to lure titans. For 100 years, nothing happened. Everyone seemed to accept nothing would happen. So why didn't anyone care until the first wall fell? Even then, they must realize the walls are now useless, so going behind more of them only delays your death - but I guess that's something. Still impressed that so many humans survived the first wall falling, though they just spun them back around and had them die anyway. Shadow0 fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 00:54
|
|
|
I wonder how much of the "size of Germany" thing might be related to the author just having a really bad idea how comparatively huge Germany (and other non-Japan countries) are. Take for example the part where they rode horses along the edge of the wall while searching for a hole (only to not find one of course). That would have been a massive journey if it consisted of, say, 1/4 of the circumference of a Germany-sized area, but it seemed implied that it took no more than a day (also keep in mind that they were traveling really slowly during night IIRC).
Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jul 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 01:03
|
|
|
The amount of titans it took to make the wall must be quite staggering. If these titans came from where Bert and Ernie are from and they aren't there of their own free will, then all the suddenly B & E's actions seem almost justified.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 01:24
|
|
|
I'm not sure "own free will" is something that necessarily applies to all titans.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 01:28
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:I thought the Wall radii were set to be 33% each if I remember that one commercial break panel in the anime. It's in the manga somewhere, too. I don't think it's been absolutely stated that the current inhabitants were the ones who built the walls though? Just seems to be an assumption. Although I totally admit I could've forgotten it if it was mentioned definitively.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 01:33
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:Still impressed that so many humans survived the first wall falling, though they just spun them back around and had them die anyway. You have to remember that there was only a single breach in the first wall. Assuming the news spread faster than the titans, every other inch of the germany sized wall was ready to evacuate inwards before the titans attacked. It's not like the Titans attacked every center of population at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 01:49
|
|
|
KittyEmpress posted:You have to remember that there was only a single breach in the first wall. Assuming the news spread faster than the titans, every other inch of the germany sized wall was ready to evacuate inwards before the titans attacked. It's not like the Titans attacked every center of population at the same time. Yes, but at least in Bert and Ernie's case, the titans spread faster than the news. I suppose it does make sense for most of the humans to be saved though. Yasser Arafatwa posted:I don't think it's been absolutely stated that the current inhabitants were the ones who built the walls though? Just seems to be an assumption. Although I totally admit I could've forgotten it if it was mentioned definitively. No, I am operating under the assumption that some other force built the walls, but the ingredients for the wall are still the same. I suppose the titans could maybe stretch their wallness, so I guess you don't need them side-by-side, but still.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 01:52
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:I thought the Wall radii were set to be 33% each if I remember that one commercial break panel in the anime. It's in the manga somewhere, too. Is the "250 km" figure here the assumed radius of the outermost wall? Assuming it is, we can do some basic math to figure this out. A radius of 250 km gives us a circumference of about 1570 km. However, if we go by the statement that it is "about the size of Germany", the figure for Germany's border is 3621 km. Judging by the known height of the wall, 50 m, we can make an estimation of the size of the average Colossal titan. We see this in chapter 2. Assuming that the Colossal titan is about 57 m tall (let's just round up to 60 to make life easier) based on the height of his head in comparison to the height of the wall and the size of the various features, we can look at the length of his arms (again, in the shot from behind in chapter 2). We see that his arms are approximately 1/3rd of his height, or about 20 m long. So, assuming that the typical 50 m Colossal Titan has arms 1/3rd of its height, we get an average length of about 17 m. The average shoulder distance, again looking at the Colossal Titan's proportions, seems to be a little bit over half the length of the arms-- say about 10 m. Thus, were a Colossal Titan to stand with its arms out, he'd reach a total of 17 + 17 + 10 m = 44 m. Hence, given: 1,570,000 m of wall / 44 m per Titan = 35,682 titans. If we go by the "Germany" figure, it turns out to be: 82,295 titans. If we decide that the Titans were standing shoulder-to-shoulder, this figure becomes 157,000 and 362,100 titans, respectively. So, all in all, you'd need to turn somewhere between 35,000 to 350,000 people into Colossal titans in order to build the wall, depending on whether or not the Titans were standing shoulder-to-shoulder or sticking their arms out. This is potentially feasible for a human civilization numbering in the millions. It's not entirely inconceivable! DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jul 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 02:19
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:math It says image posted:The distance between Maria and Rose is 100 km. 380 km is the radius of the second wall. And 480 km is the radius of the third wall. Plus all the border towns. edit for more math: So we get a Sina circumference of: 1571 km (area of 196350 km^2) Rose circumference of: 2388 km (area of 257296 km^2) Maria circumference of: 3016 km (area of 270176 km^2) This does mean that the Maria area is the biggest, but not by much. Especially not much more than Rose. So, ignoring the outer towns and assuming your 44.4m is correct, we need: 157,095 colossal titans. (which coincidentally was your estimation for shoulder-to-shoulder) Connie's town spoiler maybe? If we assume that titans are built from one than just one human, eg perhaps all of Connie's town was used in the construction of that one single titan, we can see how you would need quite a lot more humans to build these walls. Shadow0 fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jul 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 02:36
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:Connie's town spoiler maybe? We can be pretty confident that it's one person to each titan. Connie's mom was the only one in the village only because it formed with splindly legs that didn't allow it mobility. The others all went and showed up elsewhere, thus them thinking the wall had been breached.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 03:53
|
|
|
AradoBalanga posted:In non-manga news related to this series, I want this game like yesterday. You only get as many tries to cook as you have friends, failure to cook a dish means the titan gets hungry and eats your friend and then you have to restart the level. As the game progresses the dishes become harder to make. Do you have what it takes to cook for titans and save humanity?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 06:34
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:It says Where on earth did you get the idea that titans are made from multiple people. Eren doesn't absorb people when he becomes a titan, and neither do Bert, Ernie or Ymir. If we assume that all titans are people and the world was normally populated with modern technology before the titanpocalypse, 157,000 people seems like a very reasonable sacrifice to save the remainder of humanity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 06:51
|
|
|
Begemot posted:Where on earth did you get the idea that titans are made from multiple people. Eren doesn't absorb people when he becomes a titan, and neither do Bert, Ernie or Ymir. If we assume that all titans are people and the world was normally populated with modern technology before the titanpocalypse, 157,000 people seems like a very reasonable sacrifice to save the remainder of humanity. Initial titan creation. Conservation of mass. Connie's town was empty of people except the titan. I figured that using the mother as a core, the titan was made from the town. We don't know how titans are created. Eren could have been made using the same process, then turned into a child by his father. I said "if you assume", so I meant it to be speculation. Though to be fair, titans are supposedly (or at least their amputated body parts) are incredibly light, so maybe they are just made from one person. 157,000 people is like a fifth of the population that was saved. I guess that's fine. ...If you're Hitler.  But seriously, I guess it just sounds ridiculous until you realize that they sent more to their deaths when the first wall fell.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 07:51
|
|
|
There were no other titans in the town because the rest of them walked off with the sasquatch titan and attacked the castle with the trainees in it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 08:06
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:Conservation of mass. Connie's town was empty of people except the titan. I figured that using the mother as a core, the titan was made from the town. Why would you assume that after it's been repeatedly shown that single humans can transform into titans?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 08:42
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:This will all end when they open the Imperial crypt at Shuwa and kill the sentient telepathic blob covered in scriptures that lives inside.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 11:33
|
|
|
This has been the geekiest tangent in the thread so far and I love you guys for it.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 13:38
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Why would you assume that after it's been repeatedly shown that single humans can transform into titans? I figured it worked philosopher stone style. You need a lot of humans to make something small and dense, but capable of inflating. I guess that makes sense that they all walked off with the monkey, so I give up on this line of speculation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 13:45
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:I figured it worked philosopher stone style. You need a lot of humans to make something small and dense, but capable of inflating. You're seriously reaching. If titans in human form were very dense, it would have been noticed a long time ago. Nothing so far has shown them to be noticeably more dense than an ordinary human. If they inflated they'd still weight as much as a human, and thus be incredibly bad at stomping people on account of the weight of a human being distributed over a large surface area. Also this isn't FMA so it probably doesn't work under those rules.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 22:49
|
|
|
Shadow0 posted:I figured it worked philosopher stone style. You need a lot of humans to make something small and dense, but capable of inflating. They specifically mentioned that titans are incredibly light. Recall the scene where what's-her-name kicks the arm of that one titan and it goes flying.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 23:31
|
|
|
Slime posted:You're seriously reaching. If titans in human form were very dense, it would have been noticed a long time ago. Nothing so far has shown them to be noticeably more dense than an ordinary human. If they inflated they'd still weight as much as a human, and thus be incredibly bad at stomping people on account of the weight of a human being distributed over a large surface area. This is one thing that never sat right with me, because if supposedly Titans are so light, how would Reiner and Bertolt have been able to bust holes in the wall? This would only make sense if human-transformed-titans could get extra mass from somewhere else (say, the ground, or the air around them) in order to account for the great momentum that they would need to be able to kick a hole in the wall or barrel through it like a cannonball. Which, following the chain of reasoning through to the end, would imply that human-transformed-titans are qualitatively different from normal titans.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 23:35
|
|
|
Yeah, it doesn't add up if they're that light. The physics are all wonky. Wouldn't the Colossal Titan be swept away like a leaf in the wind?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 23:36
|
|
|
I think that if he's going to bother with any explanation (he really shouldn't), it's probably some ridiculous thing about using solar power to pull moisture out of the air which is why titans shoot out steam all the time. I wouldn't think too hard about the physics or geology of this universe too much, it's just gonna make your head hurt and isn't really the point. Basically I'm saying a space wizard did it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2013 23:57
|
|
|
Grei Skuring posted:Yeah, it doesn't add up if they're that light. The physics are all wonky. Wouldn't the Colossal Titan be swept away like a leaf in the wind? I think the idea is that they're lighter than they look, not all exceptionally light. There's a big difference between "30 meter giant only weighs 500 pounds" and "30 meter giant weighs 20 tons" or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2013 00:16
|
|
|
Not to mention the idea of concervation of mass gets even dumber if you factor in the regeneration. Titans follow mangalogic, you just have to roll with it I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2013 00:18
|
|
|
I've always just assumed they get the energy to smash stuff from THE SUN using some sort of hyper-effective solar energy panel skin.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2013 01:31
|
|
|
Titans being impossible and alien abominations might, y'know, be the point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2013 01:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
I think it helps that the Colossal Titan is implied to be unable to do much else besides a kick. He probably weighs too much to move for extended periods or support his weight, despite his columnar feet, since he's usually close to the wall, probably to hold onto it for support and to not walk very far. He did take a few swings at Eren at Trost. I forget if he was still holding onto the wall or anything, but he didn't stick around very long after those swings anyway. Hell, the effort to raise and swing his foot must be taxing. Not sure if the wall titans had to do much, but since they are likely just standing still there isn't much those had to do either. And the Armored Titan, Reiner himself said he's a tank, and with the weight he's packing would be enough to break walls with enough momentum. Not that any of that is news, just seems like we're taking physical incredulity a bit far. Unless I missed what was being disputed. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2013 02:12
|
|
