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I thought the point of the Eyrie was more about protecting the ruling family if the Vale was overrun by enemies. Even your territory is totally occupied, you've still got somewhere to keep your family and heirs safe until your allies arrive. With regard to food storage, I'm not saying I'd take the word of a wiki over the actual text. but there could also be other reasons for them not having enough food to survive the winter. Such as having an insane person in charge 
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Jul 10, 2013 04:54
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emanresu tnuocca posted:No one really cares about how nonsensical the Eyrie or the Titan are, these are just big fantastic structures who make up for some nice imagery when you imagine them and make the world seem epic. The Titan is just their version of the Colossus of Rhodes, or that's how it came across to me when I read the description. The Eyrie just makes no sense considering it's like taking a geographically low fantasy work and throwing in some area that sounds like it belongs in an Avatar* movie. Not to mention (AFFC) it's not even possible to remain there year-round. When autumn comes you need to leave and go down to the Vale, otherwise you're trapped and probably pretty much hosed since if you run out of supplies it's a several day trip under *normal* conditions to get from top to bottom. Oh and if the attacker has dragons you're more hosed than Harrenhal. On the other hand, with any luck we will see (AFFC) Littlefinger's marriage plot for Sansa play out in some way, although if the ultimate end for Littlefinger isn't him trying to have Sansa as a Cat replacement I'd be amazed. With any luck something will cause him to have an encounter with Stoneheart and poo poo will just go all over the place form there considering the kind of  reaction he'd have to such a meeting.*the terrible James Cameron one, not the terrible M Night one based on an excellent cartoon. emanresu tnuocca posted:GRRM's castles are status symbols more than anything else, most of them are pretty useless. Most of them are not even close to the centers of population. The Eyrie is not unique in that regard, Pyke is as extravagant and impractical, Winterfell is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. The middle of nowhere = lots of open land for farms and pastures to raise all that food that's needed for winter itself. They're remote compared to other capitals (except the Eyrie?) but Winterfell is basically a giant haven against the cold, although I think the Geothermal stuff is mentioned as only being in the main keep itself and the springs in the huge Godswood?
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Jul 10, 2013 05:25
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Evil Fluffy posted:(AFFC) it's not even possible to remain there year-round. Uhm, Yes it is. As of AGOT the last winter was nearly a decade before, Robert Arryn has spent his entire life in the Eyrie. edit: The colossus stood 30m tall, the Titan is probably four times its size. Pyke is built on cliff edges and is connected by hanging bridges a person could get thrown off by a gust of wind. There are many GRRM locales that don't make sense. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Jul 10, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 08:26
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Jesus christ. (AFFC) If I don't get some sort of pay-off (like Red Wedding in ASOS) from suffering through Cersei chapters every two or three chapters I read, I'm gonna kill myself.
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Jul 10, 2013 13:29
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stratdax posted:But since I originally thought this took place in the UK, that's how big I think Westeros is now. Westeros is the UK, the Free Cities, Dothraki Sea, Red Waste, and everything else there are all about the size of Western Europe. I have no idea how correct that scale might be. It's bigger. You wouldn't know this from the first book but the southern kingdom, Dorne, is desert, which means that it would have to be roughly on latitude with Spain/Portugal at the very least. And the North (definitely the Wall) would be more around Iceland latitudes than Scotland. Obviously that doesn't work out because it's a big landmass rather than islands, but you know what I mean. I'd say the Seven Kingdoms are like a very skinny North America - not that long to go east/west, but spanning from the Canadian Arctic in the north down to the Mexican desert in the south.
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Jul 10, 2013 13:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Uhm, Yes it is. As of AGOT the last winter was nearly a decade before, Robert Arryn has spent his entire life in the Eyrie. I believe that Pyke was originally just a regular castle, but the land around it has apparently eroded to turn it into it's current mess. Although that in itself doesn't make any sense, anyway. But you are right, while there are a handful of castles that are pretty reasonable, many of them are just crazy set pieces. It's hardly something I fuss over when reading the books. One of the things I appreciated about Harrenhal is that while it is this fantastically huge fortress, it's also clearly a boondoggle that is far to big for anyone to actually occupy or defend effectively, so it's mostly an abandoned mess.
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Jul 10, 2013 14:45
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ulvir posted:Jesus christ. (AFFC) If I don't get some sort of pay-off (like Red Wedding in ASOS) from suffering through Cersei chapters every two or three chapters I read, I'm gonna kill myself.  Cersei ended up being one of my favorite characters at the end of AFFC.
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Jul 10, 2013 14:51
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Gyshall posted:
Agreed. Cersei's AFFC chapters are some of the best in the series.
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Jul 10, 2013 19:55
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Azure_Horizon posted:Agreed. Cersei's AFFC chapters are some of the best in the series. I also agree. Cerseis chapters in AFFC are the best AFFC chapters of Cersei. *cannot recall any Cersei chapters beyond AFFC*
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Jul 10, 2013 20:38
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Fog Tripper posted:I also agree. Cerseis chapters in AFFC are the best AFFC chapters of Cersei. Her ADWD chapters were even better, surprisingly. How could you forget her important thing she does in ADWD? Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 20:51
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Uhm, Yes it is. As of AGOT the last winter was nearly a decade before, Robert Arryn has spent his entire life in the Eyrie. I don't think we know if Balon's death is accidental.
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Jul 10, 2013 23:01
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syscall girl posted:I don't think we know if Balon's death is accidental. (AFFC) People raise the possibility of Euron murdering Balon because of the timing of Euron's return, not because it's unreasonable for Balon to have been thrown off the bridge, which suggests that Pyke is a bit of a safety hazard, as it plainly is.
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Jul 10, 2013 23:19
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Is there still interest in doing a readalong? I'm past the show now (near the end of ASOS) but this thread is still spoiling things for me occasionally (such as above, now I know that Cersei is alive through all of the books currently out) - maybe if there is enough interest we can start a new thread or something?
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Jul 10, 2013 23:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:(AFFC) People raise the possibility of Euron murdering Balon because of the timing of Euron's return, not because it's unreasonable for Balon to have been thrown off the bridge, which suggests that Pyke is a bit of a safety hazard, as it plainly is. Yeah Pyke is described as pretty shoddy from Theon's perspective. They don't give a poo poo about rush maintenance and other concerns of damp castles. The kind of place that you'd imagine was built by madmen really, but it looks super cool and metal.
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Jul 10, 2013 23:48
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Azure_Horizon posted:Her ADWD chapters were even better, surprisingly. How could you forget her [redacted due to people not having read a handful of books in two years] Her chapters in ADwD were probably overshadowed by poop. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 23:56
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Azure_Horizon posted:Her ADWD chapters were even better, surprisingly. How could you forget Dude. This is the thread where we spoiler tag things.
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Jul 10, 2013 23:58
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Cersei's POV is infinitely more interesting than the ironborn, I'll give her that. But I just absolutely cannot stand the character at all.
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Jul 12, 2013 10:11
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ulvir posted:Cersei's POV is infinitely more interesting than the ironborn, I'll give her that. But I just absolutely cannot stand the character at all. What, you did not dig that the gurm felt the need to add a bunch of viking stuff into the already too long list of characters?
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Jul 12, 2013 15:25
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I don't know I kind of felt that (AFFC/ADWD(up to epilogue))Cersei's stuff was largely dull as poo poo even with her getting her comeuppance, which hasn't actually done anything but make her more dangerous. She now has a potential Frankenstein's Monster/Golem as her means of beating the charges against her and her false 'changes' face nearly slipped off when speaking with her uncle. Considering what happened to him shortly thereafter it's a safe bet she's going to go further off the deep end and force Jaime to kill her (thus fulfilling Maggie's prophecy, as Cersei was born first of the two, so Jaime is technically her little brother) at some point. At least the ironborn stuff had some actual war and progress, although the fleet going east swung between dull as poo poo and interesting, like the infodump on the horn that Victarion was carrying.
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Jul 12, 2013 22:33
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How do people feel about Griff (ADWD spoiler)turning out to be Aegar or whatever his name was? My girlfriend is a huge fan of the books and said this was an awesome mindblowing twist, but when I got up to it I just thought it was a pretty blatant retcon. As though GRRM realised he'd killed off too many contenders in his power struggle and needed to insert some new ones - when, really, the power struggle should be winding down as we approach whatever big ice and fire climax is coming at the end of the series. Also, I'm putting this on the record now - it's speculation so I'm only spoiling it because it reveals a character who is still alive at the end of ADWD - it would be absolutely fantastic and hilarious if, after all her struggles and rags to riches and power consolidation and empire building, Dany was killed in the first battle that takes place within days of finally setting foot on Westeros. I think it's totally the kind of thing GRRM would do, too.
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Jul 13, 2013 04:06
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freebooter posted:How do people feel about Griff (ADWD spoiler)turning out to be Aegar or whatever his name was? My girlfriend is a huge fan of the books and said this was an awesome mindblowing twist, but when I got up to it I just thought it was a pretty blatant retcon. As though GRRM realised he'd killed off too many contenders in his power struggle and needed to insert some new ones - when, really, the power struggle should be winding down as we approach whatever big ice and fire climax is coming at the end of the series. A lot of readers are fairly certain that (ADWD spoiler) Aegon is not actually Aegon, but a Blackfyre pretender.
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Jul 13, 2013 04:33
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(ADWD)Him being alive really isn't out there. Having the early prophecy stuff with Dany in the house of the undying and seeing Rhaegar's declaration would all be rather dumb to have if there was nothing to it. That doesn't mean he's going to have any success in the game but his and/or Dany's role could end up being a matter of facing the Others when the time comes, and neither ever sit on the throne. Plus the epilogue makes no sense at all if he's a pretender. Of all people, Varys is the last one that would be unaware of the truth and his declaration to Kevin is pretty blunt unless people believe he's lying at the time when the truth would be far more devastating at that moment. Having Aegon show up alive doesn't seem like a retcon at all and the last thing ASOIAF needed was another PoV or faction in the fighting considering the bloat that there is in AFFC/ADWD. He needs to prune about half the PoV characters quickly or there's going to be 8 books instead of 7 at this rate. I will say that there's just too much poo poo being covered that honestly isn't needed to that extent. If LOTR was written like ASOIAF then while the hobbits are fleeing the shire we'd be jumping to chapters of Gandalf running around or Aragorn tracking Gollum, Boromir's travels from Gondor to Rivendell, and all sorts of other poo poo that would probably be cool but also double or triple the length of the books.
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Jul 13, 2013 05:12
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Firstly, it's not a retcon, (ADWD) Aegon's reappearance has been foreshadowed since the second book (and the suspicious circumstances of the death of Aegon was established in the first book) and GRRM has been coy about Aegon's death since at least 2000. Secondly, (ADWD) the Aegon we meet in ADWD is definitely a Blackfyre pretender, which, again, has been foreshadowed since the second book. To respond to the concern that this would mean Varys lies to Kevan, go back and notice the conspicuous lack of any mention of "Targaryen" in their final conversation. Varys simply says Aegon is alive, which is objectively true regardless of his true identity, and allows Kevan to draw his own conclusion. This is how GRRM writes twists (consider R + L = J, where the twist is only maintained because Ned never actually explicitly thinks the truth and dances around it, letting the reader fill in the blanks and miss the evidence unless they know what to look for), and it's what Varys does (consider Varys' entire character and that he has previously admitted that he survives in King's Landing by feeding people information they need and letting them think he's theirs, and also remember that he has done exactly this thing before with the whole "short man who casts a long shadow" conversation with Tyrion). In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jul 13, 2013 |
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Jul 13, 2013 09:26
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(ADWD) While I was reading the book I kept thinking that Aegon was a fake, and now I've come around to think he is in fact who he claims, but I don't think it really matters either way. Ultimately some version of Aegon (whether real or fake) had to exist at the center of the Varys/Illyrio plot, because the alternative doesn't make sense -- they've put decades of effort into bringing the Targaryens back into power, and they wouldn't have been banking on Viserys because they knew he'd be a terrible king, nor on Dany because no one could have foreseen the dragons. (speculation) I tend to think Dany will survive the series but decide to return to Essos. Having her die pointlessly would be kind of absurdist, and that doesn't seem to be the theme that Martin is going for, but I can definitely see an ending with an authorial rejection of the "rule by birthright" idea.
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Jul 13, 2013 09:46
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Promethium posted:(ADWD) While I was reading the book I kept thinking that Aegon was a fake, and now I've come around to think he is in fact who he claims, but I don't think it really matters either way. Ultimately some version of Aegon (whether real or fake) had to exist at the center of the Varys/Illyrio plot, because the alternative doesn't make sense -- they've put decades of effort into bringing the Targaryens back into power, and they wouldn't have been banking on Viserys because they knew he'd be a terrible king, nor on Dany because no one could have foreseen the dragons. (ADWD)I don't think Varys/Illyrio care about putting a Targ on the throne so much as they want a good ruler. Or at least I think that's what Varys wants. Varys in his monologue to Kevan talks about what a good king Aegon will be because he's been trained to be one.
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Jul 13, 2013 09:54
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In It For The Tank posted:Firstly, it's not a retcon, (ADWD) Aegon's reappearance has been foreshadowed since the second book (and the suspicious circumstances of the death of Aegon was established in the first book) and GRRM has been coy about Aegon's death since at least 2000. Wtf is R + L = J? I considered putting that in spoiler tags but, no, what?
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Jul 13, 2013 15:43
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Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon , it's not really a spoiler actually.
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Jul 13, 2013 15:47
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In It For The Tank posted:Secondly, (ADWD) [spoiler]the Aegon we meet in ADWD is definitely a Blackfyre pretender, which, again, has been foreshadowed since the second book. To respond to the concern that this would mean Varys lies to Kevan, go back and notice the conspicuous lack of any mention of "Targaryen" in their final conversation. Varys simply says Aegon is alive, which is objectively true regardless of his true identity, and allows Kevan to draw his own conclusion. This is how GRRM writes twists (consider R + L = J, where the twist is only maintained because Ned never actually explicitly thinks the truth and dances around it, letting the reader fill in the blanks and miss the evidence unless they know what to look for), and it's what Varys does (consider Varys' entire character and that he has previously admitted that he survives in King's Landing by feeding people information they need and letting them think he's theirs, and also remember that he has done exactly this thing before with the whole "short man who casts a long shadow" conversation with Tyrion). I guess I just don't see why, in that moment of all moments, Varys would feel the need to play his little games. What would be the point? Kevan is dying as Varys is speaking to him. It isn't as though he's counting on him to spread the word or anything. I'm still not sold on the Blackfyre angle.
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Jul 13, 2013 16:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon , it's not really a spoiler actually. Is this that dumb theory that says Jon is secretly a trueblood king and will take the throne? Even though he dead, brah? edit - gently caress, spoilers
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Jul 13, 2013 16:21
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I think it's due in part to the prophecy stuff from book 2 about the dragon has three heads, however it could've just as easily meant Viserys, Dany, and Aegon but Viserys went and got his psycho rear end killed.. People have the same kind of theory for Tyrion but the one with Jon seems to be more interesting. Plus if it's true it sort of makes Ned Stark an absurdly honorable person since having Jon's pretty much the only really dishonorable thing we've ever heard of him doing. e: It's not true though (ADWD)and Jon's probably Warged in to Ghost if he wasn't somehow saved after being Caesar'd. The idea of a few PoV chapters solely from a direwolf's eyes would be cool. The parts where Bran was in Summer was always interesting to read.
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Jul 13, 2013 16:48
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I've come across the theory before - it was introduced to me by my girlfriend, who is a true believer, and got irritable when I didn't buy into it. It's definitely a cool idea but it goes out the window for me because of the ending of ADWD. Jon got loving shanked like 10 times by his closest supporters in a clear parallel of the Ides of March. The theory seems to rest on "maybe they didn't stab him THAT MUCH!" So, what, like, he crawls to safety and heals up? In a bed? In Castle Black? Controlled by the Watch? The same Watch that just assassinated him? I will grant that: a) he could warg off into Ghost, or another human b) Melisandre is close at hand and could resurrect him the way the red priest resurrected Beric or whatever his name was. I still think it's a long shot. It took me like 10 minutes of googling the theory to realise that there were heaps of people who had subscribed to it and would stick to it to the death in the face of all mounting evidence. edit - what's the "same" theory with Tyrion, I haven;t heard that one? Also I think it's dumb how much faith readers put in prophecy in this series (re: Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei's potential murderer) given that it's a gritty realistic fantasy in which magic rarely plays a part. It would be much more appropriate for the prophecies to just be bullshit that never come to fruition.
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Jul 13, 2013 17:16
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freebooter posted:edit - what's the "same" theory with Tyrion, I haven;t heard that one? The theory is that King Aerys II raped Tyrions Mother which resulted in Tyrion. It's a really stupid theory.
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Jul 13, 2013 17:25
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freebooter posted:Also I think it's dumb how much faith readers put in prophecy in this series (re: Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei's potential murderer) given that it's a gritty realistic fantasy in which magic rarely plays a part. It would be much more appropriate for the prophecies to just be bullshit that never come to fruition. This needs some qualification though. Magic hasn't been around for a long time, but, and someone correct me if this is a spoiler or not, it seems like the return of the dragons is sort of a herald of the return of magic. We're seeing more and more magic being used as the series goes on, etc.
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Jul 13, 2013 17:43
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freebooter posted:I've come across the theory before - it was introduced to me by my girlfriend, who is a true believer, and got irritable when I didn't buy into it. It's definitely a cool idea but it goes out the window for me because of the ending of ADWD. Jon got loving shanked like 10 times by his closest supporters in a clear parallel of the Ides of March. The theory seems to rest on "maybe they didn't stab him THAT MUCH!" So, what, like, he crawls to safety and heals up? In a bed? In Castle Black? Controlled by the Watch? The same Watch that just assassinated him? You've got to remember that this theory showed up about eleven years before ADWD came out. At the time that it seemed like this was clearly obvious, we didn't know that Jon would end up a human pincushion by the end of book 5. At the same time, I think GRRM has left himself with enough ways out of this seeming dead end.... especially given the whole prologue which details exactly what happens when a skinwalker dies.
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Jul 13, 2013 18:35
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The prophecy stuff has been a bit more accurate in the books as well. Even things Melissandre sees in her fires are accurate; she just doesn't always interpret it right, or others interpret it incorrectly. This was made really clear in cases like (ADWD) her telling Jon about the girl coming to the wall on a dying horse. Jon just assumes it's Arya and throws a loving tantrum when it isn't, blaming her for his own stupidity. Then he goes on to ignore her mention of knives in the dark(black) closing in on him, and to always have Ghost by his side. So he does the dumb poo poo Stark men do and ignores her and has Ghost locked in his quarters, then gets himself stabbed in a situation where Ghost's presence would've almost certainly prevented it. Given how her visions work I'm not going to be surprised if Stannis is dead. She even mentions that every time she looks for visions of him all she sees is white/snow, which could easily be a representation of Ramsay, meaning she can't see Stannis because he's dead and Ramsay has his sword just as the letter describes.
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Jul 13, 2013 18:58
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Hodor is also a targarian, as hinted at in the first book when he was only comfortable in the hottest pools of the Winterfell Godswood.  In fact he is the baby whos head was smashed against the wall by Gregor, grown up with only the abilities to be large and say "Hodor"
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Jul 13, 2013 19:23
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It blows my mind that people think Jon is truly dead (ie. he has permanently been removed from the story) rather than simply being killed temporarily. It was the least convincing death scene ever and there are about five different ways he could get out of it and still continue to play a role in the story in the future (1. warged into Ghost, 2. last kiss, 3. being wighted, combination of 1 and 2, combination of 1 and 3). Even GRRM is flippant when people ask him about it ("Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?"). There's no doubt in my mind that Jon warged into Ghost at the end of ADWD (Varamyr's prologue made it clear what happens to all wargs when they die), the only thing that remains up in the air is how his body will be restored to life so he can warg back into it and be reborn as a harsher, more "wolf-ish" (Stark-ish?) Jon (as an effect of spending a prolonged period inside of an animal, which is a known consequence).
In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jul 14, 2013 |
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Jul 14, 2013 01:15
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I like how hair color is so important to marking the various families and tribes in this series. It reminds me of the Romans versus the Cimbri, who were said to have hair so blond it was white, and stone-grey eyes. And who kicked the Romans' butts like five times, despite being savages.
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Jul 14, 2013 01:25
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In It For The Tank posted:It blows my mind that people think Jon is truly dead (ie. he has permanently been removed from the story) rather than simply being killed temporarily. It was the least convincing death scene ever and there are about five different ways he could get out of it and still continue to play a role in the story in the future (1. warged into Ghost, 2. last kiss, 3. being wighted, combination of 1 and 2, combination of 1 and 3). Even GRRM is flippant when people ask him about it ("Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?"). There's no doubt in my mind that Jon warged into Ghost at the end of ADWD (Varamyr's prologue made it clear what happens to all wargs when they die), the only thing that remains up in the air is how his body will be restored to life so he can warg back into it and be reborn as a harsher, more "wolf-ish" (Stark-ish?) Jon (as an effect of spending a prolonged period inside of an animal, which is a known consequence). Less convincing, as a death scene, than Bran and Rickon? Or Davos? I thought it was one of the more convincing death scenes in the series.
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Jul 14, 2013 04:20
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Hm... thinking about Rome, I wonder if Tywin was partially inspired by Lucius Sulla, in his logical-yet-brutal mindset in warfare and governance. Sulla's epitaph was "No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full." Also, (AFfC) He died of a bowel ulcer, and was famously stinky and disgusting upon death.
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Jul 14, 2013 04:50
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