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Riiseli posted:Bristol is pretty Thanks! Everyone here goes gaga over her coat when we're out walking, not a common breed in MA.
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Jul 18, 2013 15:22
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Riiseli posted:Pretty much what Rixatrix said. Basically because you can do this with it: http://www.border-wars.com/2011/03/lethal-semi-dominant-merle.html I tolerate the gene as dog's with a single copy are fine. And as I tolerate it I won't probably say no to merles in the future, because I want to remain color blind. I suppose it's time for me to contribute since this is kind of right up my alley. I had always had greyhounds and afghans growing up but after college I met an Aussie in Germany that jump-started my love for Australian Shepherds. I am one of the owners of a veterinary anesthesia equipment manufacturing company and I was in Germany helping a veterinarian friend set up a bunch of equipment. One of the vets who worked for him at the time had a beautiful black tri female and as I got to know the veterinarians there I ended up getting to spend a lot of time with her dog. Fast forward to a couple years later and I decided to get my own dog and ended up finding a female red tri puppy at an equine hospital outside of Tucson who needed a home so I ended up getting Sadie, my first Aussie. Since I do a lot of work at the Arizona Humane Society and a lot of other rescues and humane organizations and a lot of the vets at the different places are close friends they didn't hesitate to guilt me into taking in more Aussies so when Sadie was about 2 I ended up adopting Freddie, my dark red merle male who was a flyball dog that was abandoned outside AHS and Lady, my double-merle who nobody realized was deaf and was subsequently horribly abused for being "a bad dog." Not long after Stormy, a kind of goofy looking blue merle came in after being injured and luckily the surgeon on call that night at the humane society was a friend of mine who called me and volunteered to do the pocedures he needed on his own time since AHS felt it wasn't worth it and wanted to put him down. I offered to do the physical and psychological rehab that he needed and did the anesthesia for his surgery which involved some repairs to his face particularly the eyes and doing what could be done to eliminate the pain from having a tail that had been broken numerous times as a form of punishment and had all fused together making it hard for him to poop without getting it all over what was left of his tail. I figured at that point 4 was enough; I just couldn't realistically take any more dogs. So the following summer I had Freddie and Sadie out hiking in the desert north of Phoenix. Of course it was very hot and all that. Sadie ran off and started barking and when I followed I saw she had found what appeared to be a dead ACD tied to a tree baking in the sun. He was emaciated and barely alive so I cut the rope around his neck and carried him back to my car and did a little emergency triage and got him to my office where a vet met me and we treated him. He recovered completely and is now probably my most chill dog. His name is Digby. So, yeah, I guess I am addicted to herding dogs. I finally had to start saying no because even though I have the room for the dogs, 4 Aussies and 1 ACD is enough. Lady is fairly normal looking for being a double merle (you may have seen her in the "You Look Like and Idiot" threads) and has no other serious health issues other than being deaf and having very slight Microphthalmia and starburst/eccentric pupils which do not seem to give her any trouble. There is a lethal white rescue in Phoenix called Amazing Aussies and I usually take her out to work adoption events and stuff since she can be a little more approachable for people seeing double merles for the first time as a lot of people see the ones with anophthalmia and are taken aback. That got a little longer than planned. To sum it up I have 4 Aussies and 1 ACD and one of the Aussies is a double merle. I'll see if I can find a few pictures of everyone and post them later. 655321 fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 19:47
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655321 posted:That got a little longer than planned. To sum it up I have 4 Aussies and 1 ACD and one of the Aussies is a double merle. I'll see if I can find a few pictures of everyone and post them later. Merle x merle pairings were never common here. Sable x merle happened, but it too has been banned for fifteen years, so we don't really get double merles here. Accidents have probably happened sometimes, but as far as registered puppies go, no double merles in sight.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:06
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Riiseli posted:Definitely looking forward to pictures. Does sable do something in conjunction with merle?
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Jul 18, 2013 20:15
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e: ^^^  Riiseli posted:Definitely looking forward to pictures. Merle/merle is most commonly used by idiots who think it will be a fast way to make more higher-selling merle puppies. There's no doubt been accidents occasionally, but mostly it's been idiots being  idiots.What's wrong with sable/merle?
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Jul 18, 2013 20:16
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Here's another picture of Blue for you guys.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:17
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Fraction posted:e: ^^^ It can be hard to tell if a sable from a merle parent is a sable merle or a straight sable making it more likely that you would unknowingly do a M/M breeding. 655321 I want to see all them herding doggies  You're good people for taking them all in.
Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 20:25
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Fraction posted:Merle/merle is most commonly used by idiots who think it will be a fast way to make more higher-selling merle puppies. There's no doubt been accidents occasionally, but mostly it's been idiots being And sable merles were already explained.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:30
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Fraction posted:e: ^^^ Yeah in my experience the merle/merle is mostly idiots thinking they'll make the super merle because merles are "so cool looking" and whatnot. I've heard of people specifically trying to get all white aussies because they are "exotic" which is another level of stupid. Seems to always be people looking to make a quick buck and of course some accidental stuff.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:34
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Instant Jellyfish posted:It can be hard to tell if a sable from a merle parent is a sable merle or a straight sable making it more likely that you would unknowingly do a M/M breeding. So if I'm reading this right, a sable pup from a sable/merle pairing can look sable, but still carry the merle gene (in which case obviously it shouldn't be bred to another merle)? Or am I off? Just wanna make sure I understand this correctly. side note confession: I loving love merles they're so pretty I can't help it. 
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Jul 18, 2013 20:34
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Skizzles posted:So if I'm reading this right, a sable pup from a sable/merle pairing can look sable, but still carry the merle gene (in which case obviously it shouldn't be bred to another merle)? Or am I off? Just wanna make sure I understand this correctly.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:36
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Is this only an issue with sable? Does it affect other color/coat patterns this way? If you breed a red tri to a red merle, could any of the tri offspring carry the merle gene? I'm finding this fascinating.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:38
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Skizzles posted:Is this only an issue with sable? Does it affect other color/coat patterns this way? If you breed a red tri to a red merle, could any of the tri offspring carry the merle gene? I'm finding this fascinating.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:43
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Skizzles posted:Is this only an issue with sable? Does it affect other color/coat patterns this way? If you breed a red tri to a red merle, could any of the tri offspring carry the merle gene? I'm finding this fascinating. Merle affects the black in the coat. In sables the black is limited to the tips of the hairs or removed completely in adults who are "clear" sable. This can make it difficult to see if the black in sables is merle or not. It's not that it isn't expressing the merle gene, its that it is hard to see due to the limited amount of black in the coat. Cryptic or phantom merles just have a very small amount of merle. It could only be on the tail which is docked very early, it could be hidden by a white patch, it could be in a weird location like inside of the legs or it could just be a random blue eye. There's a genetic test for the merle gene now so breeders could test any potential cryptic merles or sable merles.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:53
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Well I promised pictures so here they are. A lot of them are not-so-great cellphone pictures so please excuse the quality. Sadie as a puppy:  Sadie riding in the back of my truck a couple winters back:  Sadie and Stormy playing ball on the polo field at Westworld Scottsdale:  Lady and Stormy exploring around the cabin in Prescott:  Lady after exploring around the cabin:  Freddie begging for treats at work:  Digby doing his "hug" trick (i pat my chest and he jumps up like that and i catch him:  Sadie begging for treats at work:  Lady being a good girl:  Lady again because she's so cute:  That's all I've got here at work but that's everyone. I rotate through who comes to work every day; one of the perks of working in the vet business I suppose.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:33
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Innnteresting. All I knew up to this point was that you should never breed a merle to a merle because of potential health issues and that there was a test for the merle gene. The more you know. 
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Jul 18, 2013 21:35
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655321 posted:Yeah in my experience the merle/merle is mostly idiots thinking they'll make the super merle because merles are "so cool looking" and whatnot. I've heard of people specifically trying to get all white aussies because they are "exotic" which is another level of stupid. Seems to always be people looking to make a quick buck and of course some accidental stuff. Some breeders - even big time show breeders - will deliberately breed for double merles, because a double merle x solid mating will produce a litter of 100% merle puppies Frankly, I don't have too much of an issue with merle x merle breedings IF all the double merles are humanely euthed at birth - but deliberately rearing double merles to adulthood is dumb/potentially cruel imo.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:39
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notsowelp posted:Some breeders - even big time show breeders - will deliberately breed for double merles, because a double merle x solid mating will produce a litter of 100% merle puppies I'm guessing you're thinking of Wyndlair Avalanche as a fairly recent example? Border Wars did two posts on double merles (first on Avalanche, then in general). The thing is that people don't really euth MM pups. They usually sell them on. A friend of mine got a double merle BC, and he had to be euthed at 4-5 months old I think. I googled some pictures of sable vs sable merle BCs, and I can see what you all mean. If a sable dog and a sable merle dog were plonked down in front of me I think I'd have a hard time figuring out which was which.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:48
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I can understand wanting pretty dogs but I just really do not understand breeding for pretty dogs when you know you'll more than likely have to euthanize a good portion of the puppies. It has been my experience working with the lethal rescue and herding dog rescues here in Phoenix that Fraction is correct in saying people don't really euthanize MM pups. I know my opinion is totally biased but hey, whatever.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:16
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One more picture just because they posed so nicely for me yesterday. I have a tennis ball on the back of my phone case so i can get pictures of them looking right at the camera.
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Jul 19, 2013 20:17
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My BC puppy is five months old now and well into the stilts stage, IMO  
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Jul 21, 2013 22:13
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She's really starting to remind me of the foster puppy I had a couple years ago.  While looking for a good pic of her I realized that was seriously the only one I have of her standing, and yes, she did that to herself. Kinda wish I'd been able to keep her, she was a cool little dog.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:39
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Oh man, she's adorable. BC or Aussie mix, I'm guessing? Post more pictures of her tia
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Jul 21, 2013 22:41
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Fraction she is really looking great. More pictures all around for sure and to everyone who has contributed to the thread: thanks for sharing your herding dogs and inspiring me to actually post in PI rather than just lurk. I know Aussies decently well but it's interesting to learn more about all the other herders and more about the dogs I have too.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:35
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Fraction posted:Oh man, she's adorable. BC or Aussie mix, I'm guessing? Post more pictures of her tia A life less suspected Aussie mix, I think an Aussie/BC mix would be entirely possible, maybe something else in there who knows. She was a cheeky little thing.   You see that wet spot on the couch? Yeah, that's from where she was just incessantly licking it like a weirdo.      She likes to play in tall, wet grass... like some sort of grass shark.    Video of her killing a sock. Video of her trying to Get A Bird. She really liked birds.
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Jul 22, 2013 03:54
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655321 posted:Fraction she is really looking great. More pictures all around for sure and to everyone who has contributed to the thread: thanks for sharing your herding dogs and inspiring me to actually post in PI rather than just lurk. I know Aussies decently well but it's interesting to learn more about all the other herders and more about the dogs I have too. Thanks! Her puppy coat is juuuust starting to fall out in place of her adult coat now, I think. Her back is looking hellishly scruffy irl. I would like to request more pictures of your dogs. Skizzles posted:A life less suspected Aussie mix, I think an Aussie/BC mix would be entirely possible, maybe something else in there who knows. She was a cheeky little thing. This is a good post. Meeka dog good dog You should have kept this good dog, IMO.I've been emailing people about sheep dog lessons, and I think I've found a place I'd like to take Kalli to.  It's only an hour away. I'm just waiting back to hear when the woman would recommend starting her, and how long the sessions are (I wouldn't want to do a two hour drive for half an hour of herding).
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Jul 22, 2013 19:16
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Fraction posted:I'm just waiting back to hear when the woman would recommend starting her, and how long the sessions are (I wouldn't want to do a two hour drive for half an hour of herding). I don't think Kalli will be able to go for very long at first. It's really tiring for a young dog. I've never ever seen Sukka so exhausted as he was after his first time on sheep. He could hardly walk to the car.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:20
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Oh I get that, definitely. But I'd be reliant upon someone else driving me there and back, and I don't think they'd be entirely impressed if I was done and ready to go home in half an hour.  I don't even know if the woman would want to/let me work Kalli this young, anyway. She might want to wait until she's older.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:23
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Fraction posted:Thanks! Her puppy coat is juuuust starting to fall out in place of her adult coat now, I think. Her back is looking hellishly scruffy irl. I would like to request more pictures of your dogs. Uh oh, I just got a new camera and spent the weekend taking pictures of Sadie and Freddie so once I make these not huge I'll post a few. I learned that evidently the seemingly infinite autofocus points this camera has don't really matter because it only focuses on Sadie's butt. I swear looking through these pictures its like if a bunch of male Aussie's ran a mechanic shop the majority of the pictures I took would be on the walls and on the calendars.
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Jul 22, 2013 20:16
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Fraction posted:Oh I get that, definitely. But I'd be reliant upon someone else driving me there and back, and I don't think they'd be entirely impressed if I was done and ready to go home in half an hour.
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Jul 22, 2013 21:38
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Fraction posted:I don't even know if the woman would want to/let me work Kalli this young, anyway. She might want to wait until she's older.
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Jul 23, 2013 07:43
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Rixatrix posted:I think over here the instructors do take dogs that young, but the "work" is mostly encouraging interest in sheep and not real herding training. Yeah I spoke to the woman I'd like to go to last month, first, and then completely forgot to get back to her. At four months, Kalli would have just been shown the sheep. I'm waiting to hear back now that she's five months. Another woman got back to me. She thinks a five month old puppy is perfect aged for a full day or three day clinic. I was asking about her hour long sessions not her day sessions but she just kind of ignored me Pretty sure that a full day of herding would just mostly be me waiting for my pup to wake up again.
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Jul 23, 2013 08:29
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Fraction posted:Another woman got back to me. She thinks a five month old puppy is perfect aged for a full day or three day clinic. I was asking about her hour long sessions not her day sessions but she just kind of ignored me
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Jul 23, 2013 09:59
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Riiseli posted:You might want to ask about how long (length and time of sessions) each dog will be with the sheep during the day. Anyhow. Waiting is not a bad idea either, if distance is an issue. I'm pretty certain Him wouldn't have had a clue as to what to do with sheep at 10 months old (I think this won't probably apply to Kalli as most are ready at a younger age, but it is always possibility), but at a year old he shows loads of promise and can practice stuff a younger, starting puppy might not be able to, thanks to his strong 'lie down' for instance. I might talk more to the full day/three day sessions woman in a year or something, but IMO it'd be a waste of time/money at the moment. I got the feeling she was more trying to push me to do the stuff that earns her the most money, without thinking about me/my dog/my situation at all. I don't really think a five month old puppy wouldn't be suitable for a full day or three day course 
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Jul 23, 2013 23:39
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notsowelp posted:Frankly, I don't have too much of an issue with merle x merle breedings IF all the double merles are humanely euthed at birth - but deliberately rearing double merles to adulthood is dumb/potentially cruel imo. But there's no real advantage to merle x merle vs merle x non-merle (if we assume most people doing it are doing it for color reasons...). Either way since it's dominant, you're still going to get max 50% merle. The only real difference is in the merle x merle case, you're also euthing 25%. So really the only reason to do it is because you really, really find enjoyment in killing puppies. v v
Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 03:28
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Fraction posted:I might talk more to the full day/three day sessions woman in a year or something, but IMO it'd be a waste of time/money at the moment. I got the feeling she was more trying to push me to do the stuff that earns her the most money, without thinking about me/my dog/my situation at all. I don't really think a five month old puppy wouldn't be suitable for a full day or three day course
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Jul 24, 2013 06:43
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Topoisomerase posted:But there's no real advantage to merle x merle vs merle x non-merle (if we assume most people doing it are doing it for color reasons...)
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Jul 24, 2013 08:07
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Riiseli posted:Around here a full day course might include three ten to fifteen minute sessions with sheep over a five hour period with a lunch break for handlers in between. If a puppy will sleep calmly in a car or a crate some of its off time this is certainly very doable for a day. Three days is too much. This is pretty much what TyTy did for her first experience with sheep here in Finland. It was a very good choice as the trainer (National Champion with one of her dogs) gave us some excellent pointers and feedback. Three 10-15 min sessions? If that was the case, considering it'd cost £150 (as opposed to on average £25 for an hour session), I definitely wouldn't do that. It's surprising to me that there aren't more options nearby. I live bordering sheep country but there closest i've found is still an hour away.
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Jul 24, 2013 08:31
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Fraction posted:Three 10-15 min sessions? If that was the case, considering it'd cost £150 (as opposed to on average £25 for an hour session), I definitely wouldn't do that.
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Jul 24, 2013 13:57
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So I'm about to sign on for getting an ACD here at the farm. There's a breeder up in Maine who breeds for health, work-ability, and disposition instead of "show quality," and he has been recommended to me. This will be the first non-rescue dog we've had in a long time and I'm worried and excited at the same time. Mostly I'm just excited at the prospect of having to chase cows around the farm a little less in about a year and a half  For goons who have ACD's that they train/work - what kind of collar are you using? Regular canvas/nylon, half-check/margtingales, or full on chokers? Everyone I've talked to has said that ACD's respond best to positive reinforcement, so I'm a little reluctant to go the full choker route for fear of ruining a good working dog because it pulls too much on the lead.
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Jul 24, 2013 18:13
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