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  Hello boys  If I pre-order, I can dress as a character from a better Final Fantasy. At least he isn't always posing seductively in his underwear.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:19
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There is not an eyerolling emoticon big enough for that.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:42
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Let's all just move along and pretend we never saw that. Sound good?
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Jul 18, 2013 20:45
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Finally I can relive the worst part of FFXIV and only the art design worst part of FFXI in FFXIII.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:46
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pretend to care posted:I'm still listening to that FF6 OC Remix. It's pretty amazing. I could listen to Evisceration for ages. I also got a smile when they slapped down someone whining about the very small number of drum n bass/dubstep tracks on the album, too.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:50
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I've been watching Spoony's FF reviews and in them he heavily criticizes FF13's Crystarium for being completely pointless with the huge maps because there are no deviation's in these maps and you are gonna get all the points and skills in the same order and the game puts a block on your crystarium until you've cleared the next part of the game. The point is that you could just as well have old-fashioned level ups without the flashy Crystarium maps. When you get the possibility to have all the jobs on all the characters, it's basically worthless because all the characters are whta they are (For example Hope is a mage and Snow is a fighter) and you are gonna use them in those roles, so it doesn't make sense to use them in other roles when other character's are better at them. I agree with all of this completely. But then Spoony says that the Sphere Grid in FFX is just as pointless. This I'm not so sure with. The levelling up systems in X, XII and XIII are basically different versions of the same idea: you've got a map where you can see on one glanze what skills there are and then pickin witch way you wanna go. XII is a really bad version of this, because there isn't really any freedom at all, just illusionary freedom. I think XII had a good idea with Licence Board, but in the end it wasn't too appealing: you got the spells and equipment out of the chests and shops just like usual, but then you had to go extra mile to save and spend your license points in order to use the equipment and spells, witch does seem like some bureaucratic rip-off. It was also about such basic things, regular spells and equipment, not about special abilities (sure, there were Quickenings, but I don't know if they were too useful. Also you didn't have aim directly at them to obtain them, you just got one when you hit the wall. That's seems little boring to me.) which made it a big hassle about basic game mechanics. I guess you could have gone with some pseudo-weird-rear end character combinations, such as having a mage with heavy armor, but because the you got more magic out of light armor, there was no reason to do so. Again, the characters were already oriented to one class or another, so you ended up going to the pre-indicated way anyhow. You also couldn't see what led where in the Licence Board, so for example I ended up not caring about the accessories at all, because I couldn't see what good the later ones were gonna do me. The licence board was pretty pointless, because you could have just had a traditional menu where you could have chosen if you'd want a mage or a fighter. I've never played IZJS version of FFXII and apparently it did just this. In the end X seems to have been the only one that made the idea work. You instantly see what abilities and skills there are out there, and you start to make your way towards them, but it's never too late to backpedal if you want to get something else. All of the characters start at the different places of the grid and it takes a lot of time to get from one end of the board to another, which means that all characters end up with different skillsets from one another. Also because X is one of the few FF-games where status ailments and buffs matter more than not at all, none of the skills are completely useless. X also doesn't have traditional jobs and classes with the exceptions of Yuna and Lulu being the mages, with all the other characters remaining as different kinds of pseudo fighters, which I find refreshing. If you maximize your stats in the endgame, all the characters are almost the same, but that the takes a lot of time and you probably focysed on Yuna, Auron, Tidus/Wakka and possibly Rikku, which leaves you charcters with very different Overdrives to choose from. Also if you want to have those max stats, you have to rebuild the grid from top to bottom, which is something you cannot do with the traditional levelling up system. What do you guys think? The Sphere Grid really is the only example I can think of a different, working and creative version to the old-school levelling up system. You can add zillion twist to levelling up, but too often a lot of it just doesn't matter too much: for example VIII is pretty broken and all the characters end up being blank slates (in more than one way) because of junctioning. Should RPGs stop messing with perfection and leave the creativity to other parts of game design?
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Jul 18, 2013 20:52
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ManOfTheYear posted:What do you guys think? The Sphere Grid really is the only example I can think of a different, working and creative version to the old-school levelling up system. You can add zillion twist to levelling up, but too often a lot of it just doesn't matter too much: for example VIII is pretty broken and all the characters end up being blank slates (in more than one way) because of junctioning. Should RPGs stop messing with perfection and leave the creativity to other parts of game design? If you remove the beautiful artwork and lay out the sphere grid in a linear format from each start point you'll see that there are very, very few branches on the whole thing effectively giving each character a designated role based on their starting location. Its only near end game when you have the sphere keys to unlock the sideroutes that there is a possibility of deviation. This deivation in turn is almost meaningless because its way too late to even consider it multi-classing as the main benefit is the additional stat upgrades and for post-game content you need the whole grid anyways to have a chance of surviving the boss fights.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:57
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An old fashioned level system offers the player no choice in terms of stat or skill allocation. The Crystarium offers more choices than that and the Sphere Grid offers a lot more choices than either one of those systems. If Spoony wants to argue that the choices are not enough for him and list his reasons then that is one thing, but to call it pointless and equal to an old fashioned level system is a blatant logical fallacy. This is coming from someone who didn't care for the Crystarium much either mind you. I love the sphere grid though.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:59
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The problem I mainly had with the Crystarium was that it looked needlessly complex even though it was really simple, it was made a chore to actually look at. Gameplay wise though, I think it's the best of the three you mentioned. With the Sphere grid, it takes forever for you to actually get to the point you have a choice in how each character develops, while with the Crystarium you get that choice every time you use it. The level ceiling was, I think, the best thing about it, because that allowed for enemy encounters to have some sort of difficulty, as opposed to X where everything was pointlessly easy. So yeah like a lot of things in XIII, my problem with the Crystarium isn't the gameplay aspect, it's mostly just the presentation.
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Jul 18, 2013 20:59
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ManOfTheYear posted:I've been watching Spoony's FF reviews and in them he heavily criticizes FF13's Crystarium for being completely pointless with the huge maps because there are no deviation's in these maps and you are gonna get all the points and skills in the same order and the game puts a block on your crystarium until you've cleared the next part of the game. The point is that you could just as well have old-fashioned level ups without the flashy Crystarium maps. When you get the possibility to have all the jobs on all the characters, it's basically worthless because all the characters are whta they are (For example Hope is a mage and Snow is a fighter) and you are gonna use them in those roles, so it doesn't make sense to use them in other roles when other character's are better at them. I agree with all of this completely. That's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the Crystarium (which is linear but is not as straightforward as "everyone has one job they're good at.").
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Jul 18, 2013 21:00
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Barudak posted:Its only near end game when you have the sphere keys to unlock the sideroutes that there is a possibility of deviation. This is only true about level 4 key spheres. You get plenty of level 1-3 throughout the game. It is true that once the grid is maxed out that most characters feel the same, but that only happens at end game well beyond the point that it even matters for most people unless you are shooting for some serious overkill.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:01
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ImpAtom posted:That's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the Crystarium (which is linear but is not as straightforward as "everyone has one job they're good at."). The game does encourage certain routes though, since the full Crystarium isn't unlocked until you beat the final boss and until then story gates prevent you from accessing all the jobs on all characters. Didn't it also cost more XP to go down routes the game didn't consider their main job? I seem to recall that for instance Snow was paying nearly double for equally deep crystarium layers in jobs that weren't defender. That all said I loved the system and compared to regular leveling up and the sphere grid it was fantastic. FFVIII of course still has the best leveling system.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:03
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They cost way more for any of the three jobs each character doesn't get, yeah. That was probably my biggest problem with it, but after a while I just kinda stopped caring. When I was at the final dungeon I said gently caress it and gave Sazh Medic, Vanille Commando and Snow Saboteur though, since the points to get to those first skills was only a bit more than a single level anywhere else.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:05
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Barudak posted:The game does encourage certain routes though, since the full Crystarium isn't unlocked until you beat the final boss and until then story gates prevent you from accessing all the jobs on all characters. Didn't it also cost more XP to go down routes the game didn't consider their main job? I seem to recall that for instance Snow was paying nearly double for equally deep crystarium layers in jobs that weren't defender. Yeah, there are certainly primary and secondary jobs, but it isn't as straightforward as "everyone gets the same skills." A lot of the secondary Crystarium jobs actually get different or even more powerful skills, especially for buffs/debuffs. Vanille and Fang for example, get Faithra and Bravera, which is a much larger boost to damage but for a shorter buff duration. (It's literally +80% instead of +40%) Certain characters also take longer to reach the point they can fill in for another character. (Hope will be defense, Sazh offense, until basically the point you max out their jobs.)
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Jul 18, 2013 21:06
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Xavier434 posted:This is only true about level 4 key spheres. You get plenty of level 1-3 throughout the game. It is true that once the grid is maxed out that most characters feel the same, but that only happens at end game well beyond the point that it even matters for most people unless you are shooting for some serious overkill. There are several FF games in which endgame characters all feel the same with minor differences: 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 non-international, and 5 if you're a min-maxer.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:08
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, there are certainly primary and secondary jobs, but it isn't as straightforward as "everyone gets the same skills." A lot of the secondary Crystarium jobs actually get different or even more powerful skills, especially for buffs/debuffs. Vanille and Fang for example, get Faithra and Bravera, which is a much larger boost to damage but for a shorter buff duration. (It's literally +80% instead of +40%) Certain characters also take longer to reach the point they can fill in for another character. (Hope will be defense, Sazh offense, until basically the point you max out their jobs.) Correct, and definitely all reasons why I loved the system. I also didn't mind the level capping (although I would have appreciated it not existing) because the game wasn't balanced around assuming all your crystariums were the level cap. I remember that during the time you're just Lightning and Hope I somehow hit the cap with all the crystarium's available to them at that point and just ran roughshod on the boss of that section.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:12
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Xavier434 posted:This is only true about level 4 key spheres. You get plenty of level 1-3 throughout the game. It is true that once the grid is maxed out that most characters feel the same, but that only happens at end game well beyond the point that it even matters for most people unless you are shooting for some serious overkill. You actually get your first Lv. 4 Key Sphere before your Lv. 3 Key Spheres! But beyond that yeah, although the sphere grid is really just a bunch of occasionally interweaving stat/ability paths, you can definitely cross to another character's path in the midgame. Then there's the Expert sphere grid which is a tangled mess that starts everyone off in the same place and let you cross to other characters' paths without breaking locks.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:14
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Complaining about character design in a thread about any JRPG series strikes me as a boring kind of game. Doubly so for Final Fantasy. JRPG has cheesecake, water still wet, game still looks good.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:38
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ManOfTheYear posted:What do you guys think? The Sphere Grid really is the only example I can think of a different, working and creative version to the old-school levelling up system. You can add zillion twist to levelling up, but too often a lot of it just doesn't matter too much: for example VIII is pretty broken and all the characters end up being blank slates (in more than one way) because of junctioning. Should RPGs stop messing with perfection and leave the creativity to other parts of game design? As Barudak posted, the Sphere Grid is really linear when you unwind it. Unless the character's name is Khimari, basically every character is locked off from branching from their "intended role" until the very end game. All the little branches are small and it's pretty obvious you should grab those before moving on down the line, so there's not any real "decision points." Everyone's Tidus is going to be exactly the same until the end. I disagree with your analysis of the License Board to some extent. I agree it should've shown what all the licenses were from the beginning without needing to look it up online (also fixed in the IZJS version), but when you receive characters they're barely developed and are hardly "locked in" to any role. The base stat differences between characters are so minor that you really shouldn't feel compelled to follow any particular path with anyone. It actually does give you plenty of flexibility to develop the characters the way you want. Now, I grant that LP are easy enough to gain that everyone can max the license board relatively early, which can end up making people samey at the end. But until then, the License Board actually does allow for choice and customization as opposed to moving down a linear "level up" path like the Sphere Grid.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:57
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Schwartzcough posted:As Barudak posted, the Sphere Grid is really linear when you unwind it. Unless the character's name is Khimari, basically every character is locked off from branching from their "intended role" until the very end game. All the little branches are small and it's pretty obvious you should grab those before moving on down the line, so there's not any real "decision points." Everyone's Tidus is going to be exactly the same until the end. I guess you got me here. I never played XII too much, so my knowledge and memories of it are pretty limited.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:12
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The crystarium has a ton of those little optional spokes coming off each level, which isn't mindblowing character customisation or anything (and you're just going to mop it all up eventually) but it means it's always asking you to prioritise stat increases vs. critical path to the next ability unlock, which is at least a start compared to those straightened sphere grids (wow I had no idea).
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Jul 18, 2013 22:30
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Cross-promotional outfit in MY Lightning Returns: FFXIII? I never! It's not like they aren't doing the exact same thing with Lightning in FFXIV.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:08
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Azure_Horizon posted:Cross-promotional outfit in MY Lightning Returns: FFXIII? I never! It's not like they aren't doing the exact same thing with Lightning in FFXIV. You're right. For all the possible costumes from FFXIV they could have chosen, they had to pick the barely-dressed catgirl outfit. Legal obligation, y'know?
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Jul 18, 2013 23:11
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ImpAtom posted:You're right. For all the possible costumes from FFXIV they could have chosen, they had to pick the barely-dressed catgirl outfit. Legal obligation, y'know? This is the company that gave us Star Ocean 4 and The Third Birthday. This is the least-surprising thing that could have happened.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:15
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Azure_Horizon posted:Cross-promotional outfit in MY Lightning Returns: FFXIII? I never! It's not like they aren't doing the exact same thing with Lightning in FFXIV. And I never said I was happy they were doing that either. One of Final Fantasy's biggest strengths is that each game in the main series could stand on its own merits. It didn't need pointless fanservice (and I mean of the fetish sort, not the chocobo/cactuar/Cid and so on) to be a good game. Sure there were designs like Lulu's, but in general, the games never felt like they went out of their way to pander to the fans. One of the reasons I dislike Lightning is because they are shoving her into loving everything. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when the developers go "See this character!? See how cool this character is!? How about this costume!? How about this game!? Do you like the character now!? How about now!?" This is exactly the sort of poo poo I dislike about Japanese media in general. And of course she has a catgirl costume. I mean we hit rock bottom. What's next? A m-m-m-m-meido costume? (Yes.) Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 23:15
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SSNeoman posted:And I never said I was happy they were doing that either. On the other hand Final Fantasy 9 is literally "Pandering to Nostalgia: The Game" and also manages to stand on its own. You're right that isn't creepy outfits though.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:16
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SSNeoman posted:And I never said I was happy they were doing that either. If would also help if Lightning had any loving personality or if her personal narrative or the overall FF13-X narrative were anything but hot garbage, but no they're not. Here have this bland non-character that starred in some lovely games shoved into everything. Basically I wouldn't have a problem if this was done with someone like Cid Highwind or Vivi or Balthier, but it's Light "Literally Kawaii Anime Jesus" Ning.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:24
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Less bitching, more witching.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:33
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Basically I wouldn't have a problem if this was done with someone like Cid Highwind or Vivi or Balthier, but it's Light "Literally Kawaii Anime Jesus" Ning. Maid Cid is bringing your goddamn motherfucking tea as we speak.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:35
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Schwartzcough posted:All the little branches are small and it's pretty obvious you should grab those before moving on down the line, so there's not any real "decision points." Everyone's Tidus is going to be exactly the same until the end. You can still have deviations within those intended roles though, so, no, everyone's Tidus is not necessarily going to be exactly the same. If I don't want my Tidus to learn, say, Flee because it's completely useless, then he doesn't have to. If I don't want an absolutely worthless +1 to Accuracy or Evasion then I can skip it. There is still some choice in what you get and when with the Sphere Grid; I can skip Haste(ga) if I really want, then decide later that, no, that was a dumb idea and can pick it up later or carry on without it anyway. e; Even then, you have all those spheres that either teach you abilities someone else has learned, or let you warp around to other spaces someone occupies or to nodes activated. Even with the standard Sphere Grid, there's plenty of possible permutations possible just from bouncing around as/when you please. You can rigidly adhere to getting Tidus all of "his" abilities when they come up, yes, but the choice is there to do other things as well. Lotus Aura fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 23:35
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precision posted:Less bitching, more witching. I don't care what anyone says, I loved the outfits and sparkly transformations in FFX-2. 
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Jul 18, 2013 23:37
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Dr Pepper posted:I don't care what anyone says, I loved the outfits and sparkly transformations in FFX-2. It was a fantastic game. I think my favorite outfits were all of them.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:41
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Dragonatrix posted:You can still have deviations within those intended roles though, so, no, everyone's Tidus is not necessarily going to be exactly the same. If I don't want my Tidus to learn, say, Flee because it's completely useless, then he doesn't have to. If I don't want an absolutely worthless +1 to Accuracy or Evasion then I can skip it. There is still some choice in what you get and when with the Sphere Grid; I can skip Haste(ga) if I really want, then decide later that, no, that was a dumb idea and can pick it up later or carry on without it anyway. You can also choose not to use the Crystarium/Sphere Grid/whatever if you count "give my character fewer stats and abilities" as actual choice.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:41
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Basically I wouldn't have a problem if this was done with someone like Cid Highwind or Vivi or Balthier, but it's Light "Literally Kawaii Anime Jesus" Ning. I would buy the poo poo out of a Nekothier DLC. Especially if it's like the GUST ones where the characters comment on them "So Baltheir you're a sky pira-Oh god what the hell are you wearing?" "A prepared man must always be ready to surprise his enemies. No soldier will be looking in our direction after seeing this outfit" "If you say so."
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Jul 18, 2013 23:42
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ImpAtom posted:That's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the Crystarium (which is linear but is not as straightforward as "everyone has one job they're good at."). How so? Most of the characters are good at one or two roles, and most of the roles are ideally suited to a couple characters. The combination of stats (especially HP as it pertains to Sentineling) and different abilities for the characters performing each role often creates clear divides between the characters who are good at a job and the ones who aren't; compare Hope or Vanille's Medic ability to anyone else's. I agree that it isn't exactly as simple as a traditional leveling system, and Spoony can be quite a chore, but I also think the game would've played pretty much the same if you didn't make those choices and every character had the 3 roles it stuck them with before the whole crystarium opened up forever. Illusion of choice (the keyword being "illusion") is more important to the crystarium and the sphere grid than it is something like the job system or even materia system.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:43
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ImpAtom posted:You can also choose not to use the Crystarium/Sphere Grid/whatever if you count "give my character fewer stats and abilities" as actual choice. Yeah, there's that too but that's just a boring choice since I like seeing really, really big numbers pop out of enemies heads. 
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Jul 18, 2013 23:45
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Zombies' Downfall posted:How so? Most of the characters are good at one or two or roles, and most of the roles are ideally suited to a couple characters. The combination of stats (especially HP as it pertains to Sentineling) and different abilities for the characters performing each role often creates clear divides between the characters who are good at a job and the ones who aren't; compare Hope or Vanille's Medic ability to anyone else's. Because it isn't quite as straightforward as that. Each character has their own specializations within their own area and at max level each character is going to have a unique combination of abilities over all their Crystariums. As I pointed out earler, Vanille and Fang get the -a buffs which has larger effects instead of longer duration and which require you to approach fights slightly differently because you're doing more damage (which is great) but have to micromanage harder to keep your buffs up. The difference between the longer-lasting buffs and the powerful buffs isn't entirely straightforward, and there are weapons which further improves certain character's attributes in certain roles. There are certainly characters better suited to certain roles than other. (Fang/Commando, Hope and Vanille/Medic and so-on) but it isn't a case where every character is identical or there's only one optimal choice for very situation. One character can be the most optimal Sentinel but their abilities as a whole might make you select another character or decide you don't even need a Sentinel. For the most part, you're right in that you could have played the game without much difference if each character had a set group of roles and couldn't go outside those, but that's not really exclusive to FFXIII. You could have gone through FF6 with minimal changes if Espers didn't exist or whatnot. Your party lineup is more weighted than your leveling choices in pretty much every Final Fantasy game where you have a party instead of jobs. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 23:47
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Dr Pepper posted:I don't care what anyone says, I loved the outfits and sparkly transformations in FFX-2. Absolutely. Much better game than FFX itself, all things considered.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:56
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ImpAtom posted:You can also choose not to use the Crystarium/Sphere Grid/whatever if you count "give my character fewer stats and abilities" as actual choice. 
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Jul 19, 2013 00:04
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| # ? May 23, 2024 13:35 |
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precision posted:Complaining about character design in a thread about any JRPG series strikes me as a boring kind of game. Doubly so for Final Fantasy. I don't mind the cross promotion, it's the victory pose that gives me pause.
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Jul 19, 2013 00:06
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