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Safe and Secure! posted:So does anyone really see smartphones threatening the handheld video game market? It seems like phone touchscreens have such long response times that genres that games that require more action from the player just aren't feasible. They're different markets, really. Phone games are these little timewasters you play in a waiting room and handhelds are more fully featured games you play on a plane or even at home while the TV is on. I know every clickbait gaming blog runs a "Are cell phones killing Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft??" article once a week but they're really appealing to different kinds of consumers.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:00
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fivegears4reverse posted:That their handhelds have almost always been wildly successful doesn't change the fact that they LOST MARKETSHARE IN THE CONSOLE MARKET. The N64 years badly hurt people's perception of Nintendo's home consoles. This isn't so hard to understand. I'm sorry you seem to be getting upset. I'm just having a hard time understanding what your argument is. Are you trying to argue Nintendo is in trouble? It seems really convoluted. Like you're saying, "Yeah, but if you ignore this, this and this, Nintendo is totally on the decline, guys." That'd be like trying to argue Apple is in trouble because the sale of Macs is declining when they have a massive chunk of the growing tablet market. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 21:02
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Smart phones just get progressively better generation by generation though. Android I could never see as a threat to handheld because of fragmentation, but certainly Microsoft might one day build a controller you just slot your lumia into, or Apple takes the plunge into videogames. The only real thing holding it back right now is crap control interfaces, the limited computing power and screen refresh problems will take care of themselves.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:02
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Smartphones are going to be a strong market but they're not going to be a serious competitor to the 3DS (or its successors) until one of two things happen: A: Someone comes up with a way to impliment physical controls on a smartphone to allow for a greater range of buttons and less input error. B: The smartphone market changes enough that larger/more complex/less F2P games can be released by someone not named Square-Enix and not be considered "overpriced" If that happens, Nintendo is gonna have to look very hard at how they can challenge the competition, but until that point, they are offering things that Smartphones just do not. Aside from, of course, Square Enix's DS ports.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:15
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The tech isn't what's preventing smartphones from being a viable market for good games, though. Nobody will buy things for more than ¤1 so long as they're on a phone, so anyone wanting to turn a profit has to resort to completely amoral monetisation tactics which basically amount to evoking a negative emotional response and then offering to alleviate that for a token fee as many times as you can.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:18
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bushisms.txt posted:Of course not. I was saying the attitude of this generation of games has been of impatience. Day 1 patches for the majority of games to honor a date they set. It's certainly not impatience to wonder where the games are for your game console. bushisms.txt posted:The point is, everyone crying for more games, from third party and themselves flies in the face of evidence that that's not what sells a Nintendo system. What sells it is the uniqueness of the hardware, as evidence of the failure of the GC to the rise of the WII which was a gamecube and a half in terms of graphical output. What sells systems is Nintendo's first-party software. The Wii sold because of Wii Sports. People don't buy Nintendo consoles to stare at unique hardware sitting on a shelf. Wii U owners need games! Future release dates aren't enough.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:18
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The dreamcast had a lot of great innovations and a large number of great exclusive and third party games a year into it's release, I'm not sure why everyone always compares the two outside of the "will be completely dead when it's competition comes out in a year" angle.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:21
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Crosscontaminant posted:The tech isn't what's preventing smartphones from being a viable market for good games, though. Nobody will buy things for more than ¤1 so long as they're on a phone, so anyone wanting to turn a profit has to resort to completely amoral monetisation tactics which basically amount to evoking a negative emotional response and then offering to alleviate that for a token fee as many times as you can. Pretty much this. I don't know what it could possibly take for phone games to shake the stigma of being, well, phone games.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:21
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There's also the fact that a smartphone goes everywhere with you, limiting the size of controllers/screens for comfort if not technological reasons, in turn limiting the potential complexity of games in genres like action or platformers. NSMB is a simple game, but gently caress playing even that with tiny touchscreen controls.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:28
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ImpAtom posted:Smartphones are going to be a strong market but they're not going to be a serious competitor to the 3DS (or its successors) until one of two things happen: iOS 7 and OS X 10.9 will have an official gamepad API for peripheral makers. I wonder how well they'll do against the 3DS. Supposedly, this is one of Logitech's future controllers: 
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Jul 18, 2013 21:30
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Safe and Secure! posted:So does anyone really see smartphones threatening the handheld video game market? It seems like phone touchscreens have such long response times that genres that games that require more action from the player just aren't feasible. It's something people say who don't fully think through what they're saying. They see that there's a bunch of revenue being raised by phone games, and automatically assume that if people weren't paying for that then they'd be buying conventional handheld games instead. Some of them are even off enough that they assume every 99 cent smartphone game would have been replaced by a $40 handheld game.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:33
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Phone games have come a long way but they are still an even further ways off from replacing a handheld game system. Sure for Joe Blow it's great that he can kill 10-15 minutes playing something on his smartphone and he might think twice about a 3DS now but the depth is still missing. I don't take my DS places anymore but it's still a lot better gaming experience than staring at my smartphone screen or fiddling with imprecise touch screen controls. Plus isn't Android massively pirated anyway? Apple probably isn't as bad but I seem to remember reading an article that had a stunning percentage pirate wise. I want to say it was a football (soccer) game that had 40k sales and 400k piracy or something ridiculous.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:33
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The idea of smartphones overtaking dedicated systems is a red herring that you mostly see parroted by investors and speculators who aren't especially familiar with games. A non-gamer might very well assume "games is games" and not recognize how extensive the differences are between a $60 AAA console title, a full-featured $40 handheld game on a dedicated system, and a 99 cent smartphone game. There are even Nintendo investors who think the company needs to release their back catalog for smartphones, not really understanding that very few titles in that catalog will be reasonably playable with touch controls and no buttons.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:34
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Toady posted:iOS 7 and OS X 10.9 will have an official gamepad API for peripheral makers. I wonder how well they'll do against the 3DS. Supposedly, this is one of Logitech's future controllers: They've had things like that before. It runs into the same problem as a lot of optional peripherals: You can't assume the person has them, and in turn, that means nobody is going to develop for them. The best you get is developers putting support in for them, but that prevents developers from making games designed for them. I really think what we'd have to see is someone making a game device that also functions as at least a passable smartphone, as opposed to a smartphone that cane become a awkward game device. However screw that up and you've got the N-Gage Mark 3. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 21:34
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ImpAtom posted:They've had things like that before. It runs into the same problem as a lot of optional peripherals: You can't assume the person has them, and in turn, that means nobody is going to develop for them. The best you get is developers putting support in for them, but that prevents developers from making agmes designed for them. There have been peripherals like this before, but now there's a standardized API with official branding for peripherals (MFi). You should also consider the use of AirPlay to stream to an Apple TV so that these games can be played on a big-screen TV, replicating the Wii U but with the advantage of the existing iOS library.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:46
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Toady posted:There have been peripherals like this before, but now there's a standardized API with official branding for peripherals (MFi). You should also consider the use of AirPlay to stream to an Apple TV so that these games can be played on a big-screen TV, replicating the Wii U but with the advantage of the existing iOS library. That isn't really replicating the Wii U in any meaningful way, and even a standardized peripheral still won't really matter as long as it is optional. The best they can hope for is that they partner with a developer to put out a game specifically designed for that peripheral to try to sell it and that other developers will then hop on. More likely is that it will join the legion of other similar items in getting a few games and then fading into obscurity.
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Jul 18, 2013 21:48
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't really replicating the Wii U in any meaningful way, and even a standardized peripheral still won't really matter as long as it is optional. What is the unique selling point of the Wii U hardware beyond playing a game on the TV with a touchscreen tablet controller? quote:The best they can hope for is that they partner with a developer to put out a game specifically designed for that peripheral to try to sell it and that other developers will then hop on. More likely is that it will join the legion of other similar items in getting a few games and then fading into obscurity. Apple won't have to partner with anyone. A large number of iOS games already support peripherals like the iCade, and with official support from Apple, it's unlikely these peripherals would fade into obscurity.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:08
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Stanos posted:Plus isn't Android massively pirated anyway? Apple probably isn't as bad but I seem to remember reading an article that had a stunning percentage pirate wise. I want to say it was a football (soccer) game that had 40k sales and 400k piracy or something ridiculous. There is also way more Android devices out there, and way more games are available for free legit (usually with ads or in app purchases). PC games get plenty of piracy too but still adds up to billions of dollars in sales a year.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:10
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Toady posted:What is the unique selling point of the Wii U hardware beyond playing a game on the TV with a touchscreen tablet controller? The unique selling point of the Wii U hardware is playing games specifically designed for two-screen play and often party play, not just having a touchscreen tablet controller. You can't really mimic any but the most basic of the Wii U's features with a single smartphone. Toady posted:Apple won't have to partner with anyone. A large number of iOS games already support peripherals like the iCade, and with official support from Apple, it's unlikely these peripherals would fade into obscurity. You really have to be pushing to claim the iCade is anything but an obscure peripheral. The iCade is 'supported' in that it's relatively easy to map flash game control or whatever to it. People are not rushing out to develop unique iCade games and the list of iCade supported games is tiny unless you count each individual Atari game individually. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 22:13
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ImpAtom posted:The unique selling point of the Wii U hardware is playing games specifically designed for two-screen play and often party play, not just having a touchscreen tablet controller. You can't really mimic any but the most basic of the Wii U's features with a single smartphone. I thought this was implied by my post, but AirPlay streaming allows apps to use an Apple TV as a second screen. quote:You really have to be pushing to claim the iCade is anything but an obscure peripheral. The iCade is 'supported' in that it's relatively easy to map flash game control or whatever to it. People are not rushing out to develop unique iCade games and the list of iCade supported games is tiny unless you count each individual Atari game individually. It also costs, at last check, $100. Yet in spite of its obscurity and price, a large number of popular iOS games support it. With an official API built into Cocoa Touch and hardware support from Apple, every game developer will be implementing physical controller support. The controller doesn't have to be a form-fitted attachment either; it can be an external controller that connects wirelessly, so iPads are also supported. These will be very popular iOS accessories, and it's foolish to dismiss them.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:32
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Yeah, if people are willing spend hundreds of dollars on a console to play "real" games, I don't see why that same crowd would be unwilling to spend dozens of dollars on an accessory to play "real" games on a system they already have.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:34
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Zack_Gochuck posted:I'm sorry you seem to be getting upset. I'm just having a hard time understanding what your argument is. Are you trying to argue Nintendo is in trouble? It seems really convoluted. Like you're saying, "Yeah, but if you ignore this, this and this, Nintendo is totally on the decline, guys." That'd be like trying to argue Apple is in trouble because the sale of Macs is declining when they have a massive chunk of the growing tablet market. I am not ignoring their sales, the thread isn't even about the performance of handhelds. It's dealing specifically with the performance of Nintendo's current console, and there are parallels that can be drawn to other consoles in the company's past, consoles that have suffered similar issues. If anything, what frustrates me about your posts is that you are deliberately shifting the goal posts. You're essentially saying it's ok for Nintendo's consoles to be losing mindshare/marketshare because "gee willikers their handhelds sure have been doing great". You are sidestepping the actual issue that is really being discussed here, which still doesn't change the fact that the N64 was handily outsold, the GC even more so, and while they turned things around with the Wii, they sure haven't managed to translate that into a strong start with the Wii U. The success of Nintendo handhelds has not necessarily been matched by their consoles. The fact that the 3DS is now successful and that the Wii was pretty damned successful does not change the current reality for Nintendo's newest home console, nor does it change the fact that they have not exactly inspired a lot of confidence in their efforts to turn that around.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:36
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Toady posted:I thought this was implied by my post, but AirPlay streaming allows apps to use an Apple TV as a second screen. Yes, I am aware. That still isn't a Wii U until it includes a number of other features. The Tablet controller isn't just used as a second screen or an inventory (although that's an easy/lazy way to use it) but for asynchronous multiplayer and other features which come from basically being a Wii+ and a Tablet Controller. Toady posted:Yet in spite of its obscurity and price, a large number of popular iOS games support it. With an official API built into Cocoa Touch and hardware support from Apple, every game developer will be implementing physical controller support. The controller doesn't have to be a form-fitted attachment either; it can be an external controller that connects wirelessly, so iPads are also supported. These will be very popular iOS accessories, and it's foolish to dismiss them. I've seen the list of supported games. If that's a "large number" of iOS games then the iOS has far fewer games then I thought. Likewise, you're still ignoring that "implementing physical controller support" and "designing around a physical controller" are two different things. It's pretty trivial to set up a controller on your Droid or iOS as it is, but it's also kind of mediocre because the games aren't designed around it. There are controllers that exist now and this is unlikely to change anything meaningfully. Safe and Secure! posted:Yeah, if people are willing spend hundreds of dollars on a console to play "real" games, I don't see why that same crowd would be unwilling to spend dozens of dollars on an accessory to play "real" games on a system they already have. They probably would be if those games were coming out. It's a Catch-22 problem (and one that hits a lot of similar devices.) If they start putting out excellent games which either require it or are so objectively better with it that you have to buy one, then people will buy it. It's the same problem the WiiU has. It can be as good as it wants but software drives sales and you have to convince people they want to make that software enough to buy the hardware for it. It's even worse for these kinds of optional things because it's a lot easier for people to justify dealing with the controls because they can already play the game. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 22:39
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, I am aware. That still isn't a Wii U until it includes a number of other features. The Tablet controller isn't just used as a second screen or an inventory (although that's an easy/lazy way to use it) but for asynchronous multiplayer and other features which come from basically being a Wii+ and a Tablet Controller. What other features? Asynchronous multiplayer doesn't require a Wii U controller--what are you talking about? The primary selling point of the Wii U is that it has a tablet as a secondary screen and can play games on the tablet itself. I bet you looked at the incomplete iCade list on Wikipedia, which is missing a ton of popular games, such as Ice Rage, Blazing Star, Metal Slug 3, Temple Run, Super Mega Worm, Pinball Arcade, and more. quote:Likewise, you're still ignoring that "implementing physical controller support" and "designing around a physical controller" are two different things. It's pretty trivial to set up a controller on your Droid or iOS as it is, but it's also kind of mediocre because the games aren't designed around it. There are controllers that exist now and this is unlikely to change anything meaningfully. Well, you don't specify what "designing around a physical controller" means. Super Crate Box or Street Fighter IV or whatever will be the same game regardless of physical or virtual controls. If needed, existing games will be updated to take advantage of physical inputs (this isn't like the consoles where updates cost thousands to submit). These will be popular accessories, and it's foolish to dismiss the impact that official support from Apple will have on these kinds of peripherals, like it did for all the third-party smart cases, card readers, and other gadgets in the iPhone accessory aisle at Walmart. Toady fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 23:22
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Toady posted:What other features? Asynchronous multiplayer doesn't require a Wii U controller--what are you talking about?. ... Uh? What are you even talking about at this point? Yes, it does. That's kind of the point of it. If you are just using Wiimotes then it isn't asynchronous multiplayer. And no, the wikipedia list is obviously out of date, but every single list I found was basically a drop in the bucket for the iOS. Toady posted:Well, you don't specify what "designing around a physical controller" means. Super Crate Box or Street Fighter IV or whatever will be the same game regardless of physical or virtual controls. If needed, existing games will be updated to take advantage of physical inputs (this isn't like the consoles where updates cost thousands to submit). These will be popular accessories, and it's foolish to dismiss the impact that official support from Apple will have on these kinds of peripherals, like it did for all the third-party smart cases, card readers, and other gadgets in the iPhone accessory aisle at Walmart. Because designing for a touch screen and designing for a physical controller are very different things. If you seriously think Street Fighter IV plays the same on a touch screen as it does on a controller, you're kidding yourself. People don't even agree that SFIV plays properly on a regular controller instead of a stick, let alone a virtual touch screen and a lot of the concessions made for touch screen play often make the games worse or more awkward. A game designed for a touch screen inherently has to take advantage of the fact that touch screen has very different control limitations and issues. That's part of the reason you even need this add-on in the first place. Edit: And to be honest, all of this still ignores the massive market problems the iOS has which is what really needs to be solved before it can become a serious competitor. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jul 19, 2013 |
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Jul 19, 2013 00:45
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From a former Wii U owner (who sold his system for 80% of his investment and was goddamn grateful to get that much back): Two screens might be a nice supplement to games someday, but aren't the "future" for the simple fact that they draw the player's view away from the action. This wasn't using dual screens on a 3DS, this required looking away from the action to look at a lower-resolution screen...and why would you want to draw player attention from the amazing 1080p big-screen TV and expensive sound system they have to make them look at a small screen with just okay sound? The tablet itself feels cheaply made. I've heard it referred to on a podcast (Giantbomb, maybe?) as a Fisher Price Baby's First Game Controller. I'm good with touchscreens, and I found the U's to be just okay. Gaming requires a certain level of precision, and until technology beats a standard controller in that department, controllers will remain the standard way to interact with games. I had three boxes for controllers, batteries, attachments to the controllers, a stand for the Gamepad. A set of 4 ps3 or xbox controllers: $240 retail. 4 Wiimote pluses, 4 nunchucks, 2 classic controllers (which work on some games, not on others), a pro or two, a tennis racket, a nerf gun holder...you could spend half a small country's GDP on controllers for the loving thing, and they might work, or might need patched to work (looking at you, NSMBU). Also, back to the pad...the pad has been used for HUDs, maps, or mirroring the TV (with the exception of ZombiU, which was nice, but one game does not a system sell). That's not innovation, that's just saving what..a 6"x6" square of your tv? A 46" TV has about 900 square inches of display space...I can give up 36 square inches and not miss much. Plus I don't have to look away from the action to look at the map and crash into a wall goddamnit Need for Speed I loving hate you... Ahem. Continuing on... Nintendo hosed up with their first-party release schedule. Nothing to explain here. NSMBU was not a system-seller, it was a rehash of a three year old game with slightly updated graphics and absolutely godawful (if somewhat iconic) music. The eshop is terrible; once again, just like the Wii (which I also owned) they have a large stack of games that they are going to trickle out, one-by-one. I understand they have to change things in the games to make them work, but the fact remains that there's rarely anything on the eshop worth buying since launch. I enjoyed Little Inferno and The Cave, but that wasn't worth the purchase. The third parties aren't supporting the system because it's a system that should have been released four years ago, during this current generation. Just because we're seeing the PS4 and Xbox One now doesn't mean the developers haven't had an idea of those next-gen systems' specs for a while now. If you're a company, and your one job is to make money (which is the overriding primary purpose of all these companies, from EA to Valve), think about it...would you invest in the console with technology from 2005-2006 in the year 2013? Or would you invest in the systems that most likely have a whole new 5-6 year lifecycle still ahead of them. Also, comedy answer - of course the Wii U is the Dreamcast, because they both had two screens, and the second screen was cool for a couple gimmick things and that was it. I wanted to love the Wii U. I bought it to show all my friends that Nintendo was still cool, that even though we were all in our 30s, the old boys were back and we could throw down just like old times... ...and nobody wanted to play the three games that were out. Major Edit 1 -or- "But Mucilaginous, the GAMES will come someday and you'll be sorry..." Here's what the Wii U's games are going up against...just off the top of my head, and just on the current-gen consoles with equal power. Diablo 3 GTA 5 Saints Row the Fourth Call of Duty Ghosts Dark Souls 2 Which would you rather spend your money on? bkerlee fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Jul 19, 2013 |
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Jul 19, 2013 01:44
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ImpAtom posted:... Uh? What are you even talking about at this point? Yes, it does. That's kind of the point of it. If you are just using Wiimotes then it isn't asynchronous multiplayer. I think you mean asymmetrical, not asynchronous. Cell phones and tablets tend to excel at asynchronous multiplayer (think Words With Friends).
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Jul 19, 2013 01:45
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To the surprise of absolutely no one Game and Wario flamed out massively in the US, selling only 12,000 copies in its first 2 weeks. What a gigantic waste of IntSys's time  Also the Wii U sold at the same rate in June as it did in May so neither E3 or the Best Buy demos had much of an effect. Preemptively RIP-ing W101. The install base will still be complete poo poo when you come out you deserved better 
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Jul 19, 2013 02:10
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I'm baffled as to why those demos weren't tossed on the Wii U store.
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Jul 19, 2013 02:13
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Crowbear posted:To the surprise of absolutely no one Game and Wario flamed out massively in the US, selling only 12,000 copies in its first 2 weeks. What a gigantic waste of IntSys's time Game & Wario was loving awful and deserved to bomb.
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Jul 19, 2013 02:14
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Ok. I downloaded Earthbound. I did my part. What say you? It's really the first time I've turned on my Wii U since getting bored of Monster Hunter Ultimate 3.
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Jul 19, 2013 02:15
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Alteisen posted:I'm baffled as to why those demos weren't tossed on the Wii U store. That would be nice for people who already own the system, but it's not going to sell more Wii U's which Nintendo desperately needs to do right now. Also E3 demos are usually really unstable and held together with duct tape and Nintendo doesn't want to be bricking people's consoles. ImpAtom posted:Game & Wario was loving awful and deserved to bomb. The fact that they originally thought the game was worth $60, then still thought it was worth $40 even after it completely tanked in Japan is amazing to me. It had $15-$20 eShop game written all over it. Hopefully this hasn't killed the WarioWare series because the previous games were awesome.
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Jul 19, 2013 02:25
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The above poster has a point with regards to wario pricing. The Wii U games really need to come down in price. 60 dollars for Ninja Gaiden port? A barely ok tank game for 40 bucks? A very japanese and niche minigame collection for 40 bucks? And most of the games are single player? Also no games carry any trophies? Come on Nintendo step up your game. I just bought several AAA new ps3 games at retail for ten a piece.
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Jul 19, 2013 04:55
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Just out of curiosity how much did the Ouya sell in June, it's launch month?
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Jul 19, 2013 11:53
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Counting the 60,000 kickstarter backer units, less than 100k.
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Jul 19, 2013 11:56
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OatmealRaisin posted:Counting the 60,000 kickstarter backer units, less than 100k. So more than the WiiU I guess, hiyoooooooo!
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Jul 19, 2013 11:59
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Crowbear posted:The fact that they originally thought the game was worth $60, then still thought it was worth $40 even after it completely tanked in Japan is amazing to me. It had $15-$20 eShop game written all over it. What's bizzare is they originally didn't. They were supposed to be games that came pre-loaded onto the system, as demos for what the system COULD do. Then the project got a bit too big for that so they expanded it to a "full" title. For some reason Nintendo couldn't process the idea of a game somewhere between freeware and full price.
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Jul 19, 2013 12:12
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Mucilaginous posted:
I don't know about that, I only see two games on that list that I would think justify buying a PS4 or Xbone (and one of those is Dark Souls 2, which I'm not even sure is coming out on next-gen systems). I don't get how that's supposed to trump the Wii U which also has two or three exciting upcoming games.
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Jul 19, 2013 12:40
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I don't know about that, I only see two games on that list that I would think justify buying a PS4 or Xbone (and one of those is Dark Souls 2, which I'm not even sure is coming out on next-gen systems). I don't get how that's supposed to trump the Wii U which also has two or three exciting upcoming games. The point he was making is that most of those games (in fact all of them) are current gen titles.
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Jul 19, 2013 12:45
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Zomodok posted:The point he was making is that most of those games (in fact all of them) are current gen titles. That's pretty embarrasing on my part, then. But I feel like my point still stands.
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