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I enjoyed XIII because each battle was a puzzle, and there was no way of getting around it by excessive grinding or finding cheap tactics. Even if you get overwhelmed and killed 20 seconds into the battle, you're not kicked back to the title screen, rather to just before you entered the battle. Even though I could cheese some fights by using deodorant or exploiting the enemy's pathfinding limit to get a pre-emptive strike, it was sometimes more fun just figuring out how to solve the puzzle as it was meant to be done. There are some problems with this game design, in that if you fight two encounters with the same enemies, then the outcome is going to be exactly the same. You already know how to beat this encounter, and you can beat the next one in exactly the same way. Also, XIII-2 ruined all of this by removing any semblance of challenge or balance, so almost every encounter in the game could be defeated without changing paradigm once. When you can kill an enemy by just making everyone a commando, then what's the point of the stagger system, and having to balance attacks from commandos and ravagers? Why bother using buffs and debuffs, or defend from any of their useless attacks? XIII is difficult to replay, not just because it's completely linear, and the cutscenes are horrible, it's because you've already solved all the puzzles (battles), and the game doesn't give you enough variation to solve them in any other way. Do you want to play through the game with Sazh as the party leader, and have control over the order at which buffs are applied? Maybe you want to use a certain character's Eidolon, but they're whisked away from the plot for ten hours as soon as they get it. At least with XIII-2, there's no reason to start the game from scratch, unless you wanted to do some min-maxing for some reason. In The World Ends With You, you had complete control over both the difficulty as well as your characters' level. By increasing the difficulty and reducing your level, the game rewards you with much better item drops. Where was that system in XIII-2? I wouldn't have been so bored if the battles weren't just a complete waste of time.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:25
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Overbite posted:So do you guys like ANY Final Fantasy? I mean they all have terrible stories and most have terrible characters but I thought 7 was really good, and I liked 12 I like every single Final Fantasy game to varying degrees. They all do a lot right and a lot wrong and every single one is flawed but fun. I agree with you about Phantasy Star IV being an excellent game but I'm not sure it's better than FFVI. They are very different games so I have a hard time judging them side by side though.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:27
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Overbite posted:So do you guys like ANY Final Fantasy? I mean they all have terrible stories and most have terrible characters but I thought 7 was really good, and I liked 12 I don't think I hate any Final Fantasy
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Jul 21, 2013 00:34
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Great Lakes Log posted:I just have to readjust to actual classes again, but even with that they took away my white Mage right away. I'm gonna wander around a bit and see what blue magic I can pick up that might be useful with this dragon-looking water boss. Part of the problem with 9's early game is that blue magic is just awful and your blue mage has terrible weapons.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:40
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Overbite posted:I don't understand the love for 6 though. I really don't like the characters or gameplay. Phantasy Star 4 is better in every way. Final Fantasy 6 is one of my favorite games of all time and I readily admit that the characters aren't well-constructed three-dimensional characters and that the gameplay is massively flawed, imbalanced, and in the original SFAM/SNES version buggy as poo poo. Aside from nostalgia, the love comes from the fact that it was one of the first console games ever made that - to my sight - had aesthetic aspirations and a cohesive theme and an artistic purpose. The two-dimensional characters work because they aren't people, they're characters, even in the context of the story. Look at the way the ending is directed (with the LOCKE as Locke Cole things), the way the characters gesticulate in a 16-bit game and treat the backdrop like a backdrop and not a real world, the way they bound onto the battlefield dramatically as every fight begins. It's not a coincidence that the centerpiece of the game is an opera - you're performing. Videogames mostly went from emulating simple tabletop games like chess to emulating films; it's emulating a theatrical play. Nobody else was doing poo poo like that at the time, including the prior Final Fantasy games. I guess maybe I'd put Earthbound and Yoshi's Story in the same category of 16-bit games that are definitely trying to evoke something and not just entertain the player or challenge their abilities.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:47
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Great Lakes Log posted:I just have to readjust to actual classes again, but even with that they took away my white Mage right away. I'm gonna wander around a bit and see what blue magic I can pick up that might be useful with this dragon-looking water boss. ...don't do that, unless you want to, but it is an option on the table.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:07
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precision posted:At the end of the day, despite the numerous problems the games have, for me FF13 and 13-2 are just fun. They are! Maybe they're the Summer Blockbuster Movies of the FF franchise where in this convoluted analogy FF6 would be Memento, FF7 would be Donnie Darko and FF12 would be Game of Thrones, but I don't care. Corridors? gently caress it man, there are pretty lights, I genuinely like all the characters (YES EVEN VANILLE gently caress YOU), the combat is amazing and while the higher parts of my brain are having a wank session about how I really ought to get around to playing Deadly Premonition for the third time my dumb lizard brain is going Final Fantasy 13 is Pacific Rim? 
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Jul 21, 2013 01:08
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FF9's bosses are only ever anything resembling difficult because they almost always have something nice to steal and you get obsessed with getting it all come hell or high water. If you come in guns blazing they just fall right over.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:11
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dis astranagant posted:FF9's bosses are only ever anything resembling difficult because they almost always have something nice to steal and you get obsessed with getting it all come hell or high water. If you come in guns blazing they just fall right over. For example, Gizamaluke, the guy that one poster is on, has a Blizzara Rod for Vivi which nets you Blizzara and Sleep (IIRC) a bit early. Very useful.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:12
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Yeah, by that point you're really hurting for -ra spells on Vivi and your next chance is several hours later on the next disk.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:17
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I also hate no FF game. I just don't enjoy some of them for the most part and so I don't want to replay them. However, if I think long enough, I could probably come up with a decent list of things I loved or at least really liked about even those games. Similarly I could also make a long list of things I don't like about my favorite games in the series. I'm just "that guy" where it takes a LOT to make me absolutely hate something.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:25
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I don't think there's anything wrong with disliking a Final Fantasy game. They all do a lot wrong. I do think it's a bit odd to act like any specific one is a blight and cancer upon the universe from which no good escapes. I don't like every Final Fantasy game but, at their worse, they're medicore. There are countless worse games out there than FFXIII.
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 01:28
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dis astranagant posted:FF9's bosses are only ever anything resembling difficult because they almost always have something nice to steal and you get obsessed with getting it all come hell or high water. If you come in guns blazing they just fall right over. Yeah I've been using Zidane to just steal constantly. My first few attempts too I didn't even have the blue Mage because I had bypassed the marsh.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:33
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dis astranagant posted:Yeah, by that point you're really hurting for -ra spells on Vivi and your next chance is several hours later on the next disk. Far as Gizamaluke goes, open by using a Tent on the boss (which can inflict Darkness) and if you really want that Ice Rod, you can also inflict Slow on him, set the ATB to Wait, and keep the menu open while your own attacks are animating to maximize your actions and minimize the boss's. I personally think the Ice Rod is well worth the effort. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 01:34
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dis astranagant posted:FF9's bosses are only ever anything resembling difficult because they almost always have something nice to steal and you get obsessed with getting it all come hell or high water. If you come in guns blazing they just fall right over. I remember this one boss in Treno that had a staff for Vivi and I spent like a solid hour trying to steal the drat thing and I could not loving get it even with bandit 
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Jul 21, 2013 01:35
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Final Fantasy 6 is one of my favorite games of all time and I readily admit that the characters aren't well-constructed three-dimensional characters and that the gameplay is massively flawed, imbalanced, and in the original SFAM/SNES version buggy as poo poo. I never really enjoyed playing FFVI that much, but I recognize that it had tremendous ambition and attempted to maintain a cohesive narrative across time, an important part of storytelling that many video games still struggle to achieve. Characters had motifs and motivations, however rudimentary, and its themes were far-reaching and non-accidental. In retrospect though, I think FFVI suffers from being all over the place in both tone and aesthetics. It wears its influences proudly but I feel that many of those aspects never entirely gelled -- like you have a knight-errant dude speaking in chivalric language up teamed up with a girl in a mecha-suit and some kind of jokey cat thing. A lot of it can be overlooked because it's the first time this kind of cinematic narrative was ever attempted in many respects, but some of the contrasts are still jarring. But there's no doubt that FFVI definitely set the metric for what people could expect from all future Final Fantasies and JRPGs in general. The idea of setting, characters, and story all superseding gameplay considerations truly began with FFVI, I'd argue.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:36
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Great Lakes Log posted:Yeah I've been using Zidane to just steal constantly. My first few attempts too I didn't even have the blue Mage because I had bypassed the marsh. You should head back out of the grotto once you get control of the party and eat basically every enemy there. You can get some good things like Magic Hammer and Mighty Guard early on which are super useful. Basically have Quina try and eat one of everything you meet.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:36
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All the good steals are in the 16/256 and 1/256 slots. Bandit just removes the ~50% base failure chance from steal. Things get a lot easier once you finally get master thief, assuming you have just played chocobo hnc til everything else is irrelevant. Mighty Guard costs too much and wears off far too fast, and every blue attack spell that isn't earthshaker is a pointless gimmick that either never hits, does hardly any damage or is horribly randomized to the point of uselessness. Much like Quina's physical attack. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 01:37
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dis astranagant posted:FF9's bosses are only ever anything resembling difficult because they almost always have something nice to steal and you get obsessed with getting it all come hell or high water. If you come in guns blazing they just fall right over. This right loving here. Every goddamn unique monster has like 3 things and they're all necessary to not have the game be too hard. It's really annoying.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:38
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Leal posted:I remember this one boss in Treno that had a staff for Vivi and I spent like a solid hour trying to steal the drat thing and I could not loving get it even with bandit
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Jul 21, 2013 01:38
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exquisite tea posted:I never really enjoyed playing FFVI that much, but I recognize that it had tremendous ambition and attempted to maintain a cohesive narrative across time, an important part of storytelling that many video games still struggle to achieve. Characters had motifs and motivations, however rudimentary, and its themes were far-reaching and non-accidental. In retrospect though, I think FFVI suffers from being all over the place in both tone and aesthetics. It wears its influences proudly but I feel that many of those aspects never entirely gelled -- like you have a knight-errant dude speaking in chivalric language up teamed up with a girl in a mecha-suit and some kind of jokey cat thing. A lot of it can be overlooked because it's the first time this kind of cinematic narrative was ever attempted in many respects, but some of the contrasts are still jarring. But there's no doubt that FFVI definitely set the metric for what people could expect from all future Final Fantasies and JRPGs in general. The idea of setting, characters, and story all superseding gameplay considerations truly began with FFVI, I'd argue. At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (and my avatar makes it worse) the Phantasy Star series did all of this before FF6. Though maybe it has to do with more people having played FF6 as a kid that it's got this huge fan base. I'm not saying it's a bad game but there's just a lot of things I dislike about it. I forgot what I was even talking about.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:40
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I'd love modern remakes of PS2 and PS4. I replay PS4 every few years but having to look up what all of the game's far too many spells do just isn't much fun if you aren't seriously immersed.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:41
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precision posted:This right loving here. Every goddamn unique monster has like 3 things and they're all necessary to not have the game be too hard. It's really annoying. Not...really? I've played through it several times without stealing everything and the game is never too hard. Kind of difficult but only in the sense that I have to actually pay attention and can't just steam roll everything like in previous games.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:42
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dis astranagant posted:I'd love modern remakes of PS2 and PS4. I replay PS4 every few years but having to look up what all of the game's far too many spells do just isn't much fun if you aren't seriously immersed. They did the PS2 Classics version of PS2. It was... okay?
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Jul 21, 2013 01:44
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dis astranagant posted:I'd love modern remakes of PS2 and PS4. I replay PS4 every few years but having to look up what all of the game's far too many spells do just isn't much fun if you aren't seriously immersed. Yeah the biggest problem with 4 is that the game never says what any of the spells or attacks actually do. And it never tells you the stats of items in the shops. And the entire UI in the menu is a mess. Everything else about the game is aces though, especially the cut scenes. Way ahead of its time with that stuff.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:49
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Not...really? I've played through it several times without stealing everything and the game is never too hard. Kind of difficult but only in the sense that I have to actually pay attention and can't just steam roll everything like in previous games. Yeah, it's really not hard at all. Most people here probably beat this game when they were kids, I did and I was terrible at games back then. Stealing good gear is cool and all but it's not necessary at all, especially a bit later on when you can get tons of good stuff through Chocobo Hot and Cold
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Jul 21, 2013 01:49
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It's relatively trivial to get multiple characters who can effortlessly do 9999 damage/attack. Once you're doing that FF9 is a breeze.
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Jul 21, 2013 01:58
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Not...really? I've played through it several times without stealing everything and the game is never too hard. Kind of difficult but only in the sense that I have to actually pay attention and can't just steam roll everything like in previous games. I guess it's just OCD then, like Drawing 100 of every spell in 8.
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Jul 21, 2013 02:11
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Overbite posted:Yeah the biggest problem with 4 is that the game never says what any of the spells or attacks actually do. And it never tells you the stats of items in the shops. And the entire UI in the menu is a mess. Everything else about the game is aces though, especially the cut scenes. Way ahead of its time with that stuff. PS4 was the poo poo when I was a kid. It was the first jrpg I played and I thought the game ended when I finally managed to scrape a victory over Zio oh boy was I wrong..
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Jul 21, 2013 02:12
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precision posted:I guess it's just OCD then, like Drawing 100 of every spell in 8. This is just a waste of time and you can just refine every spell you need anyway. Drawing becomes almost pointless in quick fashion. And thank god, because that mechanic was terrible.
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Jul 21, 2013 02:53
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Overbite posted:At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (and my avatar makes it worse) the Phantasy Star series did all of this before FF6. Though maybe it has to do with more people having played FF6 as a kid that it's got this huge fan base. I'm not saying it's a bad game but there's just a lot of things I dislike about it. I forgot what I was even talking about. I haven't played any of the Phantasy Star games. Would they be worth a play through -- and if so, what's a good jumping off point?
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Jul 21, 2013 03:37
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4 is by far the best and most accessible of the series. 2 is really good but also really archaic in ways 4's no descriptions for any items or skills gameplay can only dream of ( does this fucker love its teleporter mazes). 1 is an 80s Wizardry clone and should only be played if you REALLY love the series or REALLY love 80s Wizardry clones. No one really talks about 3.
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Jul 21, 2013 03:49
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precision posted:I guess it's just OCD then, like Drawing 100 of every spell in 8. This is actually just a huge wast of time. Playing the card game for 5 minutes will get you more spells than 3 hours of drawing.
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Jul 21, 2013 03:50
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dukerson posted:I haven't played any of the Phantasy Star games. Would they be worth a play through -- and if so, what's a good jumping off point? 4 is the easiest to get into and also the best. You'll need a FAQ to explain what the moves do, though. 1 and 2 are both super old school and grindy. I couldn't get into them as much as 4. 3 is the worst of the series but that doesn't make it a bad game. As for timeline, it goes 1 -> 2 -> 4. I don't even know if 3 fits in there.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:03
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I think 3 is roughly simultaneous with 4, just off in lala land dealing with poo poo no one has any reason to care about. IIRC it's on one of the ships the Parmanians escaped on when their planet blew up.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:09
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Final Fantasy 7 is a Flash Sale right now on steam for $8. Just an fyi for anybody that wants it.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:30
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Overbite posted:4 is the easiest to get into and also the best. You'll need a FAQ to explain what the moves do, though. 1 isn't that grindy. You do have to spend some time grinding at the beginning, but it's not bad after that. Visually it actually held up rather well thanks to the large colorful enemy sprites, detailed animated backgrounds and smooth first person dungeons. There is some stuff in there that isn't totally clear, but we managed to figure it out back in the day without the internet or guidebooks so it's not that bad. 2 has definitely not held up that well. It's grindy, it's obtuse, the dungeons are byzantine and incredibly long, you need a special item to save your game without having to hike back to a town and you walk very, very slowly. Visually it's feels like a step back from the first game as the enemies are generally less detailed, the battle backgrounds were changed to a generic virtual reality grid and the first person dungeons were replaced with standard overhead ones, all of which have a really annoying parallax layer of pipes or wires over the top. They actually felt the need to ship a guide book with the game because you get often get no hints as to where to go or what to do next. I've tried playing this game several times both back when it came out and later on and even with the help of walkthroughs I always end up giving up. 4 is fantastic and definitely worth playing if you are into 16 bit RPGs. The_Franz fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 04:30
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I actually like 1 the best out of all the Phantasy Stars, but that's mostly just because of the first-person dungeons, which ruled to all hell. First time I played it I busted out the graph paper and felt like a beast.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:38
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The comic book styled cutscenes in 4 were a good way to bypass the limitations of the console and show events instead of just having sprites move about. I'm surprised it was never copied. I mean look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1CISN51pkM in 1993! This is why Phantasy Star 4 is the best 16 bit RPG. Someone rename this thread to Phantasy Star Megathread: 4 is the best game in the series.
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Jul 21, 2013 05:03
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Phantasy Star 1,2 and 4 are great. 3 is... well. It exists.
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Jul 21, 2013 05:07
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