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Ferrinus posted:Why would you read "same strength" as "same?" Why would you do that? That's just rude and insulting. quote:Dragon-Blooded don't need to do less damage per hit than Solars do or forge Daiklaves more slowly than Solars do - but they should be weaker in terms of essence/health/excellency dice/other core, salient traits and they simply shouldn't have access to things like perfect defenses (3E style perfect defenses, of course, where you forfeit all accumulated momentum or whatever), third circle sorcery, the highest-rated evocations, etc.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:34
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I like cross-splat games and it's why I think Exalted would be better served if Solar supremacy over other Exalts was expressed through base stats/rules exceptions/access to unique powers rather than baked into every single charm. If my Solar already has half-again your DB's essence pool and if my Excellencies can already double the effect of yours, we don't need your each and every power to be inferior to my each and every power to preserve the setting narrative.Nessus posted:As for what you're saying, Ferrinus, why do other Celestials need to top out below Solars? (I can accept a bit of this on Terrestrials much more easily, since they're much more 'mortal' relative when they're much older.) 'cause effort and determination trump inherent supernatural advantage are cornerstones of the Exalted setting. It's not only the reason that the Solars are stronger than the Dragon-Blooded, it's also the reason that the Solars were beaten by the Dragon-Blooded. Chaotic Neutral posted:Because you mentioned 'same strength' and 'as good as' in the same breath as calling unique charms out as certain special things, which would be wholly unnecessary if they were all unique. They wouldn't be special. It would be the default assumption. Well, it seems to me that you can't escape a certain level of functional transparency, because like obviously both splats are going to be able to make a sword deal more damage when it lands and both splats are going to be able to convince someone of a proposition they were initially resistant to. I don't think Solars should add +5 damage to the DB's +3, or that Solar mental influence should always cost 2WP to resist compared to the DB's 1WP (I know that system is being jettisoned but I needed some kind of shorthand here). quote:And this is why! "They don't need to do less, but they will anyway, because.. just, because." Why shouldn't they have perfect defenses? Why shouldn't they have full-strength elemental-themed evocations? Why shouldn't they have access to top tier elemental sorceries? Why can't they be unique, equally powerful things? This is what I'm saying - you profess something in one breath, then trash a vital part of the idea in the next. Because they're the mightiest of the Exalted and the only ones to grasp perfection!
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Jul 21, 2013 22:39
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't know why people always play cross-splat, but I do know that they do. A very large percentage of games are either all-Solar, all-Terrestrial, or Solars-plus-some-other-things. A game of everybody-is-the-same-splat-and-they-aren't-Solars-or-Dynasts is quite rare! Because when I describe the setting to five people, each of them may latch on to a different Exalt type and say HOLY COW THAT IS SO COOL and I want to only run one game. Because there are some cool character concepts which are flat-out better in a mixed-splat game, like the Loner Abyssal Renegade, or the bonded Lunar / Solar pair, or the Sidereal vizier who actually acts as an adviser. Nessus posted:As for what you're saying, Ferrinus, why do other Celestials need to top out below Solars? They don't need to be BEST AT EVERYTHING, but they do need some kind of power which nobody else has.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:42
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Solars don't have to be the mighiest Exalts any more than Sidereals have to be viziers. They just are, because that's how they were written, and nobody has come up with an argument for changing it that was good enough to convince the people who would have to be convinced.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:43
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Ferrinus posted:Because they're the mightiest of the Exalted and the only ones to grasp perfection!
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Jul 21, 2013 22:43
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Ferrinus posted:'cause effort and determination trump inherent supernatural advantage are cornerstones of the Exalted setting. It's not only the reason that the Solars are stronger than the Dragon-Blooded, it's also the reason that the Solars were beaten by the Dragon-Blooded. A Lunar has to find a person to imitate; stalk that person for the better part of a day; decide either to kill that person to take their form, or to use a supplementary power to take their form temporarily; and THEN has to go in through the door. Gaining these powers required a lot of XPs. A Solar (with the right abilities, granted) just has to drop some motes and stuff a pair of coconuts down his top and he gets a pretty-much identical mechanical effect. Which of these is showing more effort and determination? I would say the Lunar. e: For what it's worth I'd give my hypothetical Parity Solars the following things which make them all heavy movers and shakers. * Their magic is loud, direct, and hasn't been on the board in a while. * They are the best at nationbuilding and 'leadership' (as opposed to 'organization'), meaning they can quickly make use of human resources * Perhaps they are uniquely skilled at Evocations, though that concept's pretty vague I've heard that tossed around: however this manifests, I think being the masters of tool use (which Alchemicals might well share but probably without some of the other advantages) is reasonable enough, and even could fit a thematic set-up nicely. (Solars use tools; Sidereals use understanding; Lunars use their bodies; Terrestrials use the elements) * Solar Circle Sorcery, even if I'm reading that now as a mighty curse-in-disguise from the crippled and spiteful authors of Creation 
Nessus fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 22:45
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Rand Brittain posted:Solars don't have to be the mighiest Exalts any more than Sidereals have to be viziers. They just are, because that's how they were written, and nobody has come up with an argument for changing it that was good enough to convince the people who would have to be convinced. I really thought they were just supposed to be the kings, priests and other leaders, and not literally better than the other splats at everything else. Just because you're a leader doesn't mean you have to be better than your subordinates, just better able at directing them.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:45
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PrinceRandom posted:Did the Solars ever need to be the best at everything? Wasn't there schtick supposed to be leadership and "bringing everyone together". I really don't see why they need to be ubermensch if they are just supposed to be the glue. No, they really don't. That's why the change to being Lawgivers in 2E was a good idea. It gives Solars a more defined role- they're the best at leadership, organization, and related fields like artificing and development of sorcerous power. Other Exalted can manipulate and maintain, but like the sun itself Solars have a generative power- they create wonders. That gives them things to be best at and keeps the setting consistent because you can't have First Age style wonders without Solars being on the scene. But it also leaves room for other Celestials to match and surpass them in other areas by using their own shtick. Solars may be inhumanly good at sneaking, but a Lunar can achieve the same thing by changing their form or a Sidereal by twisting fate so its easy for them. And all Exalted were designed as primordial slaying killbots, so you can potentially give each Celestial Exalted equivalent personal combat prowess through different means- Solars are generally good at it, but Lunars will be Stronger, Faster, Tougher than Solars (in a way that achieves equivalent results) and Sidereals use esoteric martial arts and fate manipulation to create a competitive combatant that's a bit more "glass ninja" than the other types. This still lets Solars be the "best" and probably most important Exalted in the setting because they can fill a role nobody else does and makes their return a Big Deal, but doesn't mandate deprotagonizing other Celestials in any story that involves a Solar/or Solaroid. LGD fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 22:45
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Ferrinus posted:That's a tautology. If Solars are the strongest, then non-Solars aren't the strongest! So you're entirely missing the point of my argument. I'm not arguing for non-Solars to be stronger, I'm arguing that Solars are so powerful and hog so much plot importance that as it stands, other Exalts are just drowned out by Solars being better at pretty much every non-niche thing! Solar Supremacy is a dumb stupid unfun thing both lore-wise and mechanics-wise by having one character option be so superior to the others. It's a dumb stupid unfun thing when it's Casters in D&D, it's a dumb stupid unfun thing here. Discounting cross-splat games, it becomes less fun to play other Splats when your powerset is "Solar but weaker, but hey, you get some bits that are, in a few niche situations, better than Solar baseline charms!" Edit: Wow, I need to type quicker to keep up with this conversation. >____>
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Jul 21, 2013 22:47
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So maybe the problem is that the Core book don't have any rules for cross-splat play right out of the box. Cause when you're only playing Solars, you still have to have characters split to fill out others niches.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:48
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Amidiri posted:Well, in theory, they should be able to work together because their entire purpose in being created was to work together for a purpose (killing the Primordials). The supernaturals in WoD have no such communal origin story. Having splats be balanced against one another is simply never going to happen, for the pure reason that since each splat has what amounts to 5 sub-splats what you're really balancing isn't:
It's balancing:
Balancing 30+ classes against each other in a way where each will be unique interesting is just not going to happen. To even start, they'd either have to have a hard cap of two or three castes per splat, or throw out every splat other than Solars, DBs, and one other one. All and all, I'd much rather them focus on making the splats fun to play within themselves than on going after the white whale of cross-splat balance.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:54
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Having one character type be supremely better than all the others in all cases is kind of a poor choice no matter what standpoint you approach it from. Narratively it's a poor choice because it's boring— it takes a group of 700 Great Heroes and forces 400 of them to be automatically inferior just because. Mechanically it's a poor choice because it makes one splat more effective than all the others because of Reasons, and from a FUN aspect it's a poor choice because it arbitrarily punishes anyone who would rather play with the chosen of the moon goddess or the exalted of the stars than the returning Solars. E: Valhawk posted:Having splats be balanced against one another is simply never going to happen, for the pure reason that since each splat has what amounts to 5 sub-splats what you're really balancing isn't: (etc) Well, here's the thing. What your actual CASTE is is largely a thematic choice, because you can very easily be, say, a Twilight, favor all the Dawn abilities, and play as a Dawn. I myself played a Dawn who pretended to be a Zenith! It really is just balancing splats against each other, not each individual caste against each individual caste. If the charms as a whole are at least roughly balanced between splats, players will pick and choose and customize their own exalt without too much worry. Amidiri fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 22:55
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Chaotic Neutral posted:Thematically being the mightiest and most perfect does not have to mean 'only the Wizard can hit Level 20'. Actually this has pretty much been the case in every edition of D&D but one, and arguably in that one, too! Zing! Seriously, though, I don't think exclusive access to Solar Circle Sorcery, neo-perfect defenses, etc. has to result in mixed games being unfun or feeling unfair. Part of the fun of being a DB in a Solars game or whatever is being the underdog, and if you're the one guy who can't actually say "gently caress it, Adamant Skin Defense" in response to everything else going catastrophically wrong that sets you apart and underscores the truths of the setting without, at the same time, just making your character equivalent to everyone else's character minus three. When we learn more about 3E's system I'll be able to speak with much more confidence as to where and how salient differences between Exalts should live (maybe Excellencies should be standardized, for instance; it sounds, though, like your maximum essence pool isn't necessarily a big deal) but I think you can set up a system such that Solars are believably and demonstrably "the best" - just like the fiction says they are - but in which someone playing a Solar in a mixed game doesn't feel like an rear end in a top hat. Nessus posted:A Lunar has to find a person to imitate; stalk that person for the better part of a day; decide either to kill that person to take their form, or to use a supplementary power to take their form temporarily; and THEN has to go in through the door. Gaining these powers required a lot of XPs. But... the Lunar with the right abilities just has to "drop some motes". They don't even need any coconuts. You've likened one character's acquiring the ability to assume a disguise with another character's action of actually assuming the disguise. Also, "disguise" is a goal-centric (and therefore Solar-centric) way of looking at the action of assuming someone else's likeness. If your goal is disguise, you don't need to literally transform your flesh and bone. Lunars aren't disguise artists, they're shapeshifters - a Solar can't disguise themselves as a bird and start flying. AdjectiveNoun posted:So you're entirely missing the point of my argument. I'm not arguing for non-Solars to be stronger, I'm arguing that Solars are so powerful and hog so much plot importance that as it stands, other Exalts are just drowned out by Solars being better at pretty much every non-niche thing! I don't buy "drowned out". I think it's important to the stories of each of the other Primordial War Exalted that they aren't as good as Solars. It's informed everything they've done since the usurpation, how they think of themselves, how they treat with each other, how they think of Solars, etc.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:59
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Valhawk posted:Having splats be balanced against one another is simply never going to happen, for the pure reason that since each splat has what amounts to 5 sub-splats. I agree, balancing the splats completely will probably not be possible (though if I had my way there wouldn't be Castes, just more general "You're a Exalt, pick [x] favoured abilities that are thematic to your concept" stuff), but that doesn't mean that trying to fix a current imbalance is pointless, and that's what people are arguing here - not that All Exalts must play the same.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:59
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Valhawk that's kind of bullshit because every charm is available to every caste/class of each splat. The caste/class system is more of a guide template and a small boost to what role you feel like playing (melee fighter, mage, whatever.)
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Jul 21, 2013 23:00
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Valhawk posted:Balancing 30+ classes against each other in a way where each will be unique interesting is just not going to happen. To even start, they'd either have to have a hard cap of two or three castes per splat, or throw out every splat other than Solars, DBs, and one other one.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:00
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Ferrinus posted:Actually this has pretty much been the case in every edition of D&D but one, and arguably in that one, too! Zing! To be clear I'm also not saying that Solars shouldn't have their big things they are best at, but they should be like 'best at inspirational leadership, superhuman displays of ordinarily mundane skills, and a couple other bells and whistles.' This gives them a niche, and a pretty broad and approachable one (do you want to be the guy who is Best At A Profession on an Exalted level? Consider a Solar!) which can also justify Solararchy in the metaplot without branding non-Solars as smaller, goonier individuals only able to succeed through luck, treachery etc. when compared to a Solar. quote:But... the Lunar with the right abilities just has to "drop some motes". They don't even need any coconuts. You've likened one character's acquiring the ability to assume a disguise with another character's action of actually assuming the disguise.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:06
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Ferrinus posted:Actually this has pretty much been the case in every edition of D&D but one, and arguably in that one, too! Zing! quote:But... the Lunar with the right abilities just has to "drop some motes". They don't even need any coconuts. You've likened one character's acquiring the ability to assume a disguise with another character's action of actually assuming the disguise. Take a moment and think about what you're saying here. quote:I don't buy "drowned out". I think it's important to the stories of each of the other Primordial War Exalted that they aren't as good as Solars. It's informed everything they've done since the usurpation, how they think of themselves, how they treat with each other, how they think of Solars, etc. LGD fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 23:08
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Caste means very little beyond the abilities you favor and a single unique superpower that is usually inferior to a charm. It's very easy to play a Night who focuses on Sorcery or a combat monster Eclipse, for example, and I know this because I've seen both happen. It's always been the case that an Exalt is never typecast by their caste, with the exception of Dawns and Dawn-alikes who really need more favored non-combat abilities. 
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Jul 21, 2013 23:11
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Nessus posted:I feel like this is pretty much literally the same argument as 'the fighter needs to suck contra the wizard, because sometimes people want to suck, you can be the underdog, etc.' I don't think all the splats need to just magically be at perfect parity but I also don't think you need, out of character (as opposed to in character) a Great Chain of Being, with Solars at the top (slightly flanked by the modified Solars), followed by Lunars and Sidereals and going on down. LGD posted:I'm a big fan of Mage: the Awakening, a game in which the fighter does need to suck contra the wizard. The thing is, in that game everyone plays a wizard and there's a ton of different kinds of wizards with different specialties and goals. If someone wanted to play a Sleepwalker (normal human who can remember magic they see; most can't) in a Mage game I probably wouldn't object, but it'd undercut the setting to give them extra special powers just as good as magic. quote:A Lunar has to hunt a guy and kill him (for the permanent version) or stun him (for a temporary version that was harder to learn, although I'll totally own this may change) in order to present as that guy; the Solar has to learn the Charm and then just uses the Charm. I'm not sure what you mean about goal-centric there, are you saying Lunars shouldn't be structuring their activities around goals now? To become able to execute a flawless disguise, a Solar must undergo rigorous training. A Lunar, meanwhile, needs to eat someone. Seems to be working as intended to me.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:11
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Ferrinus posted:'cause effort and determination trump inherent supernatural advantage are cornerstones of the Exalted setting. It's not only the reason that the Solars are stronger than the Dragon-Blooded, it's also the reason that the Solars were beaten by the Dragon-Blooded. Is it? Is it really? Because I thought the cornerstone of the Exalted setting was the exact opposite. Solars didn't earn their power by 'effort' and 'determination', they earned it by one moment of heroism. One moment. The time when the utter coward is pushed into a corner and has no choice but to fight. The time when the hedonist pushes away the bribes because he remembers his conscience. The time when the war criminal decides to parley and achieves a peace treaty. Those are all possible Solars. Doesn't mean they won't go back to their old habits after. Just like how Infernals could be massively successful but they fail once. Like how Abyssals could have been good people who had a single moment of weakness. The ability for a Solar, the so-called honorable lawgivers, to be an awful poo poo who happened to have a single moment of heroism is a necessary and interesting feature of the setting. Just like the ability for that awful poo poo to keep being awful or become a hero is also a necessary feature. Solars earned their power by luck of the draw. Exalted, for me (and I don't think a lot of people would disagree) is about fantasy tropes like that being utter bullshit. No, you didn't earn your power via inherent goodness or awfulness. No, you aren't just because people say you're just. No, there's no objective morality. If your tenet was right, heroic mortals would be the strongest splat, and I think we all know that just isn't true. The actual cornerstone that you seem to be referencing is "The strong can be slain by their inferiors", which is superficially similar but entirely different.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:14
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Ferrinus posted:I'm a big fan of Mage: the Awakening, a game in which the fighter does need to suck contra the wizard. The thing is, in that game everyone plays a wizard and there's a ton of different kinds of wizards with different specialties and goals. If someone wanted to play a Sleepwalker (normal human who can remember magic they see; most can't) in a Mage game I probably wouldn't object, but it'd undercut the setting to give them extra special powers just as good as magic.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:14
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Ferrinus posted:I'm a big fan of Mage: the Awakening, a game in which the fighter does need to suck contra the wizard. The thing is, in that game everyone plays a wizard and there's a ton of different kinds of wizards with different specialties and goals. If someone wanted to play a Sleepwalker (normal human who can remember magic they see; most can't) in a Mage game I probably wouldn't object, but it'd undercut the setting to give them extra special powers just as good as magic. Yes but other Celestial Exalted aren't Sleepwalkers. They're supposed to be Big drat Heroes. They have magic. They're part of the original XXX hundred heroes. It's just that you're insisting Moon Magic, and Fate Magic must never ever ever be able to match Sun Magic in any capacity because of Reasons. It's absolutely a bad idea from both a setting and mechanical perspective.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:16
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Ferrinus posted:I'm a big fan of Mage: the Awakening That's great, now imagine Mages of certain Paths being inherently inferior outside of niche abilities to Mages of the Obrimos Path. That's what you're advocating in Exalted. Your argument hasn't magically stopped being any less Caster Supremacy-esque just because you've tried to move the goalposts.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:17
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Ferrinus posted:I like cross-splat games and it's why I think Exalted would be better served if Solar supremacy over other Exalts was expressed through base stats/rules exceptions/access to unique powers rather than baked into every single charm. If my Solar already has half-again your DB's essence pool and if my Excellencies can already double the effect of yours, we don't need your each and every power to be inferior to my each and every power to preserve the setting narrative. I think we can agree at least that handicapping other splats a dozen different ways is silly, DBs do not need to have less essence and less efficiency and less power and greater xp cost etc. However I really do not think we need to represent solar supremacy in the rules for PC splats. As long as it is spelled out that the PCs are exceptional we can have our cake and eat it too, you can have your setting conceit and we can have our fun playing exalts that work well with each other. Ash Rose fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 23:27
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Ferrinus posted:To become able to execute a flawless disguise, a Solar must undergo rigorous training. A Lunar, meanwhile, needs to eat someone. Seems to be working as intended to me. Except the Lunar also has to go through a long involved process as well? Like, even to get their lunar tattoos (and therefore be able to shapeshift safely, without warping into a horrible blob of acidic ooze), they have to go through some pretty rigorous training and pass trials to get their castes set by a collection of their elders. Then they have to follow this target around and ritually kill them, then they get the disguise. But it actually isn't flawless; the Lunar might have a flawless physical disguise, but they'd need to go on and buy charms and dots in order to be able to convince anyone they're actually who they say they are. Meanwhile, Solars learn a charm and can pass as someone else more or less flawlessly.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:28
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MJ12 posted:Solars earned their power You've taken this to a weird place. I don't care who "earns" their power, I'm not a libertarian or something and I don't have it in me to barf up huge screeds about how Batman is morally superior to Superman because the latter had it too easy. I'm talking about what Solars do and what they represent. The most craven, selfish, venal Solar is going to overcome the most craven, selfish, venal Lunar because in Exalted human effort beats inhuman mutation. Nessus posted:If we were talking about heroic mortals vs. Solars I'd see your point, but this seems more akin to (I don't know Awakening well so here's an Ascension analogy) 'it'd undercut the setting to give non-Hermetic mages extra special powers just as good as Hermetic magic.' LGD posted:Yes but other Celestial Exalted aren't Sleepwalkers. They're supposed to be Big drat Heroes. They have magic. They're part of the original XXX hundred heroes. It's just that you're insisting Moon Magic, and Fate Magic must never ever ever be able to match Sun Magic in any capacity because of Reasons. AdjectiveNoun posted:That's great, now imagine Mages of certain Paths being inherently inferior outside of niche abilities to Mages of the Obrimos Path. That's what you're advocating in Exalted. Uh, no. It's a cornerstone of both versions of Mage that all the different mage types are on equal footing. It's a cornerstone of Exalted that all the different Exalt types are not on equal footing. A version of Awakening in which the Obrimos are categorically strongest could work as a setting, but it would undercut a lot of the established setting and also require much, much more robust support for Obrimos-only games than currently exists. Also, the third one of you two did not use "move the goalposts" correctly. Amidiri posted:Except the Lunar also has to go through a long involved process as well? What's your point? Solar disguise can achieve comparable things to Lunar shapeshifting but they aren't the same thing and require different kinds of setup and produce different kinds of results.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:45
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Anyways, the Solars are 'best' can possibly be interpreted in two ways, IMO, without it being toxic to the setting. 1. The Solars are extremely limited but are strongest in that limited purview. So, for example, Solars as pinnacle of human achievement would mean a Solar could evade any trap or pick any lock, but if the only door was small enough that only a mouse would fit in, welp they're out of luck. In this case their charms would be ridiculously powerful but also very limited. A Solar melee fighter, for example, might have charms to murder everything with a melee weapon but no charms to get a melee weapon out of thin air, because that's not how they work. A Solar social character might be able to convince entire cities to believe in something they wouldn't be against... but couldn't convince anyone to do anything they aren't already inclined to do (just as an example). They're the most limited Exalts and that's why they're so powerful. This would create heroes who are ridiculously awesome and capable of changing the world... but yet are hilariously, incredibly vulnerable to being unprepared, at which point they become by far the weakest Exalt. That's why you have Lunars and Sidereals to make up for it. That's why the Usurpation was so successful. 2. The Solars have a very broad purview but any other Exalt with a more focused shtick can beat them in that shtick. So an Abyssal is the Exalted of murder. Abyssals are better at Solars at Murder-murder of people, of governments, maybe even of ideas and memories. They are worse at doing things other than murder. Lunars are better survivors, better at sneaking around, better at becoming others. Sidereals are better advisers and at playing around with basic tenets of the world. Alchemicals are better than Solars at anything they're prepared and adapted for. Infernals are better than Solars at something they want to do when their weirdness doesn't cripple them. Dragonbloods are better than Solars in large teams, as they are incredibly good at working in gestalts.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:53
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Ferrinus posted:You've taken this to a weird place. I don't care who "earns" their power, I'm not a libertarian or something and I don't have it in me to barf up huge screeds about how Batman is morally superior to Superman because the latter had it too easy. I'm talking about what Solars do and what they represent. The most craven, selfish, venal Solar is going to overcome the most craven, selfish, venal Lunar because in Exalted human effort beats inhuman mutation. And I'm saying that it's the opposite. Solars are no more representations of 'human effort' than Lunars or Dragonbloods. Their actions are human effort as seen through the lens of the Unconquered Sun, but that's still as seen through the lens of the Unconquered Sun. Much like Dragonbloods are human effort seen through the eyes of the Elemental Dragons. Or how the Alchemicals are human heroism and effort seen through the eyes of Autocthon, which understands human society and industry far better than humans themselves (and thus his Exalts reflect that). In Exalted, all the guts and determination and good ideas mean jack if you don't have the power to back them up. Human effort doesn't mean anything more than inhuman effort. A beastman who has the advantage of generations of selective eugenic planning to kick rear end loaded up with all the awesome potions of Lunar witch-doctors who doesn't give a poo poo about the next fight (and puts in the minimal amount of effort) is going to beat a peasant who cares very very desperately and is putting everything on the line, fighting with their all. All the time, every day of the week. Because in Exalted human effort isn't anything special like it is in other fantasy games. Power trumps guts and determination. "The strong do as they wish, the weak suffer as they must" is very much a core tenet of Exalted. "Human effort beats inhuman mutation" is, I think, a massive and horrific bastardization of it, which is part of why I can sympathize with the arguments that Solars being explicitly called The Best is toxic for the setting. Because it disguises why Solars are the best. And the reason they're The Best is... "Because gently caress you we're more powerful that's why". Not because one of Exalted's themes is that human effort is awesome and rewards you with power. But because power rewards you with power.
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Jul 22, 2013 00:00
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When I was brand new to Exalted, which was back when Exalted was itself a brand new game, I thought that it was kind of a novel idea to have Solar Exalted be on the top of the metaphysical power pyramid and to be the introductory "splat" presented in the core book. That is, I thought it was interesting for a fantasy game to come with explicit, built-in delineations of power in a caste/hierarchy sense, which is something a lot of games wind up doing unintentionally but which Exalted gave a sort of weird fantasy/mythic vibe by doing so on purpose, and also to at least purport to start people off with the group that was supposed to be on the very top rather than what a lot of other games do which is start you off with some option near the bottom and then gradually ramp things up (like, for example, the 40K RPGs which led off with a game that cast players as a bunch of random chumps press-ganged into being disposable tools and then later released books to let you play as Rogue Traders, space marines, and other such individuals). Following years of Exalted fandom, falling out of Exalted fandom, playing other games, and looking at Exalted again, I have to say that I think the overall philosophy of "Solars are the best at everything period" is not one that honestly does the game a lot of favors. The Solar/Lunar comparison is probably the most glaring example of this because for two editions now the developers have struggled to give the Lunars, as a player splat, any sort of meaningful lasting identity beyond "shapeshifting??? I guess," and even that is of limited usefulness compared to stuff that Solars can do, usually with less hassle, by virtue of it being decided that the Solars' niche should be Everything The Best Always. I don't think that does the designers any favors either. On the one hand it means that everything anyone designs for any other splat except maybe the ones that are explicitly on the same level as Solars but with more skulls/more spikes are inevitably going to get caught in a development cycle of "we have to make sure this doesn't out-power the Solars," which is going to lead to more stuff like "Solars are better/have an easier time at disguise and impersonation than the Exalts whose defining feature are being protean shapeshifters." On the other hand, Solars being The Best, Period is like that adage about handing someone a blank sheet of paper and telling them to just draw whatever. Guidelines and limitations are a useful set of design tools that can help focus and foster creativity. I think it could be beneficial both to Solars as well as other Exalt types if Solars had more of an explicit focus on the things they were tops at and in turn left more room for the other splats to have more freedom to be excellent at things without the constant "but not as good as Solars" hanging over their heads. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't dislike Solars too, but I think that the entrenched attitude of "Solars need to be the best at everything" hasn't done the game any favors on either side of the developer/player divide. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 00:12
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Ferrinus posted:You've taken this to a weird place. I don't care who "earns" their power, I'm not a libertarian or something and I don't have it in me to barf up huge screeds about how Batman is morally superior to Superman because the latter had it too easy. I'm talking about what Solars do and what they represent. The most craven, selfish, venal Solar is going to overcome the most craven, selfish, venal Lunar because in Exalted human effort beats inhuman mutation. And post-facto justification of the natural and moral superiority of people who have achieved superior position through good fortune is libertarian as gently caress. quote:Uh, no. It's a cornerstone of both versions of Mage that all the different mage types are on equal footing. It's a cornerstone of Exalted that all the different Exalt types are not on equal footing. A version of Awakening in which the Obrimos are categorically strongest could work as a setting, but it would undercut a lot of the established setting and also require much, much more robust support for Obrimos-only games than currently exists. Also, the third one of you two did not use "move the goalposts" correctly. quote:What's your point? Solar disguise can achieve comparable things to Lunar shapeshifting but they aren't the same thing and require different kinds of setup and produce different kinds of results. Seriously, I like you Ferrinus and you often have good opinions, but on this topic you're like the groggiest D&D caster-supremacist. LGD fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 00:41
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Dodge Charms posted:IMHO the heart of the issue is that people interpret "anything a regular person can do" differently. This is a failure of imagination. A human hiding is not doing the same thing as a rat hiding. The pinnacle of Solar hiding would be to turn invisible, which is pretty dang effective, except when someone comes along who is so good at seeking that he can see invisible things, which there are plenty of in Exalted. A Lunar who changes into a rat has circumvented the whole process of hiding/seeking. The best seeker in the world can't recognize a person as a rat, because, well, that's not the way humans seek. You'll notice that there is no Charm that allows a Solar to recognize a target in any form she might be in. There are ways to catch a Lunar's Tell, and Solars are good at that, but only by boosting the standard human techniques for spotting Tells. It's still difficult, which fails to render the Lunar's ability irrelevant. Rats can do tons of things a Solar can't! Like, fit into crevices. I'm sure there are others! I think. We do run into a problem here, as Solars can smell incredibly well and can talk to animals, including rats. But, this requires a significant investment of training and essence that the Lunar can do without. Given time, a mundane human can do rat things pretty well (save fitting into crevices), but a rat will always do them more easily. edit: Every setting design decision is arbitrary. Solar Exalted being chosen from the most skilled humans there are is a pretty fundamental arbitrary attribute of the setting. Calling it out as arbitrary doesn't really counter the preference that Solars are the best at doing human stuff. MJ12 posted:Anyways, the Solars are 'best' can possibly be interpreted in two ways, IMO, without it being toxic to the setting. This is really good! For the most part, I think it's the approach that every design team has made, but you are referring to a particular charm when you mention creating a sword from nothing. I think Sidereals get a similar charm quote:2. The Solars have a very broad purview but any other Exalt with a more focused shtick can beat them in that shtick. So an Abyssal is the Exalted of murder. Abyssals are better at Solars at Murder-murder of people, of governments, maybe even of ideas and memories. They are worse at doing things other than murder. Lunars are better survivors, better at sneaking around, better at becoming others. Sidereals are better advisers and at playing around with basic tenets of the world. Alchemicals are better than Solars at anything they're prepared and adapted for. Infernals are better than Solars at something they want to do when their weirdness doesn't cripple them. Dragonbloods are better than Solars in large teams, as they are incredibly good at working in gestalts. They haven't taken this tack, and I honestly think it wouldn't make for a very fun core splat. There are some examples of the designers doing this. For instance, the Sidereals have a charm that can turn any inanimate object into a secretary. This instantly makes them more effective secretaries than any Solar, since they have potentially unlimited secretarial power. This is probably not something a Sidereal player is really looking for, but it's an example of how a diverse and unusual power set among non-Solars can make them unquestionably superior. On a separate note, Alchemicals have been described as powerful as Terrestrials, because they have to specialize to such an extreme degree. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 04:02
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There's a difference between being the best at everything and being the best at what could best be called "human ability". Granted "human ability" is a fairly large area, but there are noticeable gaps that Lunars, Sidereals, and Dragon-Blooded can fill in. DBs are doing this pretty well, even if their charm set is trash at least it's unique. No one so far is advocating Solars being the best at everything, other splats clearly have their strengths, but whether that's mechanically reflected is another issue. Lunar shapeshifting has always been an issue. Originally someone thought that Lunars getting shapeshifting meant they didn't need disguise charms. This was, in hind sight, a bad idea so when GotMH came out Lunars got disguise charms (although they were pretty crappy charms, but that's because they were mental influence and we all know that works). However, Lunar shapeshifting shouldn't be balanced around a Solar disguise charm because lunar shapeshifting isn't about disguise. Sure, you can use it for disguise, but it's not the main point. In my opinion it shouldn't even be a major point, but that's just me, I'd prefer it to be a large grab-bag of varied and unusual powers among which you can make yourself look like someone else. Or turn into a fish, or a bird, or a rat, or ..... etc etc As far as I can tell Solars get Sorcery and artifice as their purview because 1.) GCG thought playing a reincarnated sage-god-king was awesome (I agree) and 2.) It reflects Solars as the embodiment of humanity's conquest of their world through tool-use, of which sorcery and artifice are the ultimate expression.
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Jul 22, 2013 04:05
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pospysyl posted:This is a failure of imagination. It's really not. Because, at the end of the day, the human and the rat both have to interact with the Awareness mechanics at some point, which are an inherent abstraction that does not care whether you're good at hiding because you're invisible or just really small because it's all just Stealth dice. And at that point either one splat is better than the other, or not. It's the same point where 2e shapeshifting fell down; the mechanical backing of shapeshifting was purely blee blee bloo bloo blah blah, and that was a shame because it was supposed to be a core thing of a major splat.
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Jul 22, 2013 04:12
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After looking over the ensuing conversation, I think I'm not particularly invested in the idea of Solars being 'the best' in terms of mechanics. I still like the idea, setting-wise, where they acted as the leaders of the Exalted host before falling into a decline, but there's really no reason to enforce their superiority over the other splat types. I'm really curious as to how or if this will be handled: ideally I'd prefer to see the gaps in power lessened and Dragonblooded/Sidereals/Lunars getting to edge out Solars in certain respects.Ithle01 posted:There's a difference between being the best at everything and being the best at what could best be called "human ability". Granted "human ability" is a fairly large area, but there are noticeable gaps that Lunars, Sidereals, and Dragon-Blooded can fill in. DBs are doing this pretty well, even if their charm set is trash at least it's unique. No one so far is advocating Solars being the best at everything, other splats clearly have their strengths, but whether that's mechanically reflected is another issue. The way I've always seen it is that Solars need to brute-force their way into extraordinary effects while the other Exalts get to accomplish it at default. A Sidereal can use fate magic to move the mountain, and make it so that the mountain was in a different spot since, well, forever. Meanwhile a Solar has to uproot the mountain and lug it all the way to where it needs to go. A Dragonblood can take a deep breath and exhale a tornado, a Solar has to make to do with shouting loud enough to blow his enemies away. It certainly doesn't help that Solars, as the default splat, receive the most mechanical support. Prior to all the errata, the Solar charm tree was pretty unpleasant in its own right. One-weapon two-blows was an unbelievably worthless charm. Ithle01 posted:In my opinion it shouldn't even be a major point, but that's just me, I'd prefer it to be a large grab-bag of varied and unusual powers among which you can make yourself look like someone else. Or turn into a fish, or a bird, or a rat, or ..... etc etc That looks like how it's going to turn out in Exalted 3E: Lunars get unique abilities based on the form they're taking. But yeah, I think that shapeshifting should be less for disguise and more for turning into a miles long cobra that will poison the rivers of Creation with its venom or something like that.
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Jul 22, 2013 04:17
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:It's really not. Because, at the end of the day, the human and the rat both have to interact with the Awareness mechanics at some point, which are an inherent abstraction that does not care whether you're good at hiding because you're invisible or just really small because it's all just Stealth dice. And at that point either one splat is better than the other, or not. It's the same point where 2e shapeshifting fell down; the mechanical backing of shapeshifting was purely blee blee bloo bloo blah blah, and that was a shame because it was supposed to be a core thing of a major splat. If you find a Lunar-turned-rat, there's no way to tell whether it's the Lunar or just a rat, unless you go through the Tell mechanic, which is a difficult thing to pull off. In game mechanic terms, a search roll would be Wits+Awareness, declared to find the Lunar. You don't know that the Lunar has turned into a rat unless you saw it. In the first case, that roll can't find the rat, because you're not looking for a rat and have no reason to believe that you're looking for one. Even if you knew the sneaker was a Lunar, she could have turned into a ladybug or a spider or whatever. In the second case, it's easier, but rats are mad fast so they can go down a hidey-hole or something, making the aforementioned Wits+Awareness roll much more difficult. Even an invisible Solar has the area he can be restricted, making a dedicated search by a magically proficient seeker much easier. MJ12 posted:Is it? Is it really? The 2nd edition core does say that pre-Exaltation, every Exalt is a heroic mortal, meaning they have made the effort to train themselves to a pinnacle of human ability. Exaltation, particularly Solar Exaltation, allows them to train and develop them further. A Lunar, Sidereal, Abyssal, or Infernal Exaltation allows them to develop their skills in different directions (ideally), but Solars continue to develop their abilities in much the same way that they did as heroic mortals. The fault is not in the Solar design, but in the other splats', that they are underlings. (I'm so, so sorry.) pospysyl fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 04:19
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pospysyl posted:If you find a Lunar-turned-rat, there's no way to tell whether it's the Lunar or just a rat, unless you go through the Tell mechanic, which is a difficult thing to pull off. In game mechanic terms, a search roll would be Wits+Awareness, declared to find the Lunar. You don't know that the Lunar has turned into a rat unless you saw it. In the first case, that roll can't find the rat, because you're not looking for a rat and have no reason to believe that you're looking for one. Even if you knew the sneaker was a Lunar, she could have turned into a ladybug or a spider or whatever. In the second case, it's easier, but rats are mad fast so they can go down a hidey-hole or something, making the aforementioned Wits+Awareness roll much more difficult. Even an invisible Solar has the area he can be restricted, making a dedicated search by a magically proficient seeker much easier. Turning into a rat to hide is lame anyways, they should take the form of a monster so hideous that all who dare look upon them shall be struck dead from terror! 
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Jul 22, 2013 04:25
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MJ12 posted:1. The Solars are extremely limited but are strongest in that limited purview. So, for example, Solars as pinnacle of human achievement would mean a Solar could evade any trap or pick any lock, but if the only door was small enough that only a mouse would fit in, welp they're out of luck. In this case their charms would be ridiculously powerful but also very limited. A Solar melee fighter, for example, might have charms to murder everything with a melee weapon but no charms to get a melee weapon out of thin air, because that's not how they work. A Solar social character might be able to convince entire cities to believe in something they wouldn't be against... but couldn't convince anyone to do anything they aren't already inclined to do (just as an example). They're the most limited Exalts and that's why they're so powerful. I'm down with this. I think the Solars should be, categorically, the best at any form of human endeavor, represented by their mastery of the 25 abilities. Other Exalts should only be able to oppose Solars by "breaking the rules" and doing things outright impossible for a normal human to ever do. While I don't think it will ever be perfectly possible to balance all splats against one another, I think it's worthwhile to at least make an effort so mixed-splat games are interesting. I think a good way to preserve the "little brother" aspect of Dragon-Blooded would be to have them start at Essence 1 by default and have everyone else begin the game by default at Essence 2, to represent that the Terrestrial's don't get as big a jolt of initial power. Then, you could have rules for "advanced" Dragonblooded that would be on par with the other characters in a mixed-splat game. If you still want to play underdog babydeeb, you can use the normal rules for generating Dragonblooded, and if you want to be on even footing, you use the rules for advanced Terrestrials, simple as that. Generally, I think two characters of the same level of Essence and with the same numbers of charms and dots should be balanced against each other. I said generally, so don't misinterpret this as saying all builds must be exactly the same. I think if Solars are made too powerful mechanically so their raw excellence overshadows and is always better than the special shticks of other splats, the narrative of the setting becomes uninteresting. The Solars are back and they are going to shake things up. 3E makes things more interesting because there is already an ongoing stalemate between the Lunar Host and the Sidereals and Dragonblooded, and I also recall hearing things about the Mask of Winters and other Deathlords, Gods, and scary opposition being locked in due to "balance of power" situations. If the semi-peace of the Age of Sorrows is fragile, Solars don't have to be Mary Sues to shake up the setting. I'm down with Ferrinus's general idea of having Charms being equal, pound for pound, but having restricted areas of charms that only certain splats can get which make them better at certain things. Solars go into the realm of outright insane prowess that's a recognizable extension of human excellence to the point where they can strike fear into the hearts of beings no longer using human excellence. A Dragonblooded won't have the prowess of a Solar, but if they have the same number of charms invested in the same general area and same number of dots in the right places, the Dragonblooded should be able to tap into the elements and their lineage of ancestors to make the conflict close enough that it ultimately comes down to luck and player skill. Now, people might respond to this saying "But Milton! If a Dragonblooded can reach a power level sufficient to go toe-to-toe with a Solar, how come Ten Thousand Dragonblooded aren't massively better than the Solars?" This is the same argument I have gone into multiple times about D&D, Project Eternity, Mutants and Masterminds, and other games I can't even remember. Just because the game makes it possible for Dragonblooded and Solars to be competitive doesn't mean every Terrestrial has that immaterial strength of character to cut out the decadence and the hedonism and rise to that level. Your Solars in your home game should be able to ultimately rise above and become more individually powerful in whatever they do than the vast majority of beings in Creation, but that doesn't mean there aren't similar yet different capabilities in the other shards for those rare few who can rise to that level. tl;dr If you're gonna have what's basically a "Level" stat, don't intentionally unbalance things that are supposed to be the same level.
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Jul 22, 2013 05:24
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Well, honestly, to me, the problem is not as much "Solar embody perfection" as much as "the other splats are a mess". Lunars, in particular. I was... recently making some 2E Lunars with a group of friends. Charm selection alone was an incredible mess, which I suppose comes with said charms being based on attributes and not abilities. In that sea of terrible charm trees, it's hard to tell what's useful and what's trash, especially if you are trying to create a character with new players. So, I guess of all the splats, I would like to see Lunars reworked to be... way, way less confusing. If I'm any other splat, I know that X Melee charm will let me do things with a sword, whereas with Lunars it's kind of a guess. Power-level wise, I would love to see Lunars take their place as being capable of standing up to the Solars, not necessarily in a niche way. They can both leap a mountain, the Solar by being super-humanly awesome and the Lunar because he can will his shape into a being that can leap mountains, and both should be able to do it by about the same time, whereas a dragon-blooded will need age an experience to be able to do something similar. Siddies cheat because fate ninjas don't NEED to leap over a mountain, they just need for people to be sure that they did.
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Jul 22, 2013 05:54
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:It's really not. Because, at the end of the day, the human and the rat both have to interact with the Awareness mechanics at some point, which are an inherent abstraction that does not care whether you're good at hiding because you're invisible or just really small because it's all just Stealth dice. And at that point either one splat is better than the other, or not. Except it's worse than that: Lunars get "you're a rat!" and some dicepool adders, while Solars get the dicepool adders and some "you exert unnatural mental influence, those losers don't even get Awareness checks against you". One of these splats faces a risk, while the other can avoid contested checks and therefore faces less risk. With enough checks, the Lunar will eventually botch ("Is that rat... taking notes?!"). pospysyl posted:If you find a Lunar-turned-rat, there's no way to tell whether it's the Lunar or just a rat Know an ancestor cult priest, or someone good at Thaumaturgy? Great, bind some ghosts and now you've got a Lunar detection system, which also works on your more common spy threats (spirits of all kinds). Solars can still sneak around because gently caress you, they're Solars. pospysyl posted:Rats can do tons of things a Solar can't! Like, fit into crevices. Like I said above: the Lunar's trick looks really neat, until it tries to interact with the actual system mechanics of Exalted. In terms of imagination space, yeah, it's great! But in terms of getting poo poo done, it falls on its rear end when compared to what a Solar can do for less XP, less motes, and very often less risk. @MiltonSlavemasta: I really like the idea of Solars being the best leader-types. Can the best General lead from the front? Sure, but he's probably not the best one-on-one fighter in his army. Dragonbloods might be able to beat up Solars, but a squad of heroic mortals led by a Solar might be able to take out a squad of Dragonbloods, albeit at ruinous expense to the mortals -- and a squad of Dragonbloods led by a Solar, watch out!
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Jul 22, 2013 06:25
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