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In detail: Nasu: No, instead of female superiority, thats's just absence of men. It looks like girls are being prioritized, but if men don't appear to begin with, it's like nothing more than building a farm where there can be no antagonism. In that sense, women become more like mascots... it might mean looking down on them. Not by the creators, but by the audience. Speaking of my own works, people often tell me "Nasu-san, you really appreciate women's rights, because you write stories with strong girls in them", and I agreed too, but lately I started thinking that might not be the case. In Tsukihime and in Fate, the heroines Arcueid and Saber are the ones fighting on the front lines and the protagonists are behind them. In Kara no Kyoukai, the fighting is always left to the heroine Ryougi Shiki, and the protagonist Kokutou Mikiya becomes just the man who feeds the heroine. That composition is actually very male chauvinistic. When you think about physical strength and emotional strength, the latter is more difficult to achieve. Anyone can be strong if they pick up a weapon, but you can't become mentally strong just by obtaining a thing. In the works of Nasu Kinoko, strength in battle is possessed by the heroines, and the male characters symbolize emotional strength. When I noticed this, I felt like even I'm stuck in my ways in some respects. For example Arcueid is said to be the strongest in the world of Type-Moon, but at the same time because she's in love with Shiki she tends to give in to what he says. At those times the man is the one put in a superior position. If it were truly even, Arcueid could use her superfluous power to send Shiki flying. Like "you two-timing bastard!" I'd want a truly powerful heroine to have the emotional specs to match. Rin and Saber and Arcueid aren't just dumb heroines. But, I can't say that the way the protagonists who only have emotional strength teach something to these perfect heroines doesn't look like a metaphor for how men win out in real society. If we're aiming for an even world, we shouldn't erase men like in K-On! or push the weakness of falling in love solely on the heroines, we should consider an equal relation. Which is a remarkably nuanced perspective from a fiction writer let alone a Japanese VN writer.
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Jul 22, 2013 05:18
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Cool, thanks guys. The opening to the game was legitimately funny as hell, and i'm looking forward to more of it. I want to believe that having a heart attack is just his body's defense mechanism when it comes to ~girls~ and the doctors just misdiagnosed it terribly.
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Jul 22, 2013 05:25
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I guess on one hand, it's nice that the thread has lasted this long without too much drama, but on the other hand, I do feel like it's on life support. It seems like when the first thread started, there was a lot more variety of posters and games being discussed, but now it's down to basically an endless repeat of F/SN and MLA... usually right down to the same exact points, even. Sometimes it's broken up by news but then it goes right back. Strangely appropriate considering how often VN reuse Time Loop as a concept.
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Jul 22, 2013 06:21
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Really I think it comes down mostly to the fact that there hasn't been many big releases on the TL front lately. We had a pretty big surge of posts on Rewrite when that came out though, but most of the projects for bigger name VNs have stalled out into nothingness (Majikoi, Baldr Sky, etc) which limits discussion.
Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 06:29
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I am indescribably sad that Baldr Sky got stalled and that nobody (to my knowledge) is doing Muramasa, since apparently along with MLA they make up the big Mecha VN trio, and both are apparently much better than MLA.
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Jul 22, 2013 06:33
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Rodyle posted:I am indescribably sad that Baldr Sky got stalled and that nobody (to my knowledge) is doing Muramasa, since apparently along with MLA they make up the big Mecha VN trio, and both are apparently much better than MLA. Supposedly JAST is working on Muramasa but we will be lucky to get that by 2020. As far as recent releases goes there is Dangan Ronpa but it has it's own thread for that. For upcoming stuff there's Higabana 2, Mahoyo if the translator doesn't stall on it again and Grisaia I guess but I'm not very interested in it.
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Jul 22, 2013 07:34
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Funny how all of us, myself included, forget ataraxia exists. Even before the numbers are limited by what gets translated and what doesn't, there is sadly a limited number of great VNs worth reading in the first place. Yes we have a few stragglers, but the for most part what is worth reading has already been released and dissected. We as a collective group started more or less at the same point so it made sense that we'd discuss the likes of Rewrite or G-senjou as they came out, but for whatever reason new readers haven't been as forthcoming after their FSN/MLA experiences. I think it would be kind of cool if Higurashi/Umineko were added to that "everyone keeps discussing FSN/MLA" group!
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Jul 22, 2013 11:59
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Comparing crazy theories with my friends was probably the best part of reading Umineko for me, so yeah I totally agree that it'd be great if more newbies started reading it and posting theirs. This got me thinking though, what non stalled out VN translations (that are actually worth reading) are even coming out at this point? Off the top of my head we have Comyu, Muv-luv Altered Fable, Mahou, Ataraxia (which I am honestly just waiting for it to hit 99.9% and then switch to "beginning editing/re-translation process .01%") and...That's about it. (That I can think of at the moment) Anything else? e: Oh right there's Dracu-Riot which I only played a tiny bit of the common route patch but it had some good gags so that might be worth it if it keeps it up in the full product. Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 12:15
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Me I'm currently waiting on the Tsukihime remake to come out first.
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Jul 22, 2013 12:43
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The AIR VN is also progressing at a decent pace now. The common route is apparently 100% finished.
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Jul 22, 2013 13:19
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Ibram Gaunt posted:This got me thinking though, what non stalled out VN translations (that are actually worth reading) are even coming out at this point?
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Jul 22, 2013 14:19
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Tree Huffer posted:The AIR VN is also progressing at a decent pace now. The common route is apparently 100% finished. klapman posted:Also, i'm playing Katawa Shoujo, and i've heard that there's a lot of variation in the writing quality of the routes. Which ones are good, and which ones should I avoid for being really bad?
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Jul 22, 2013 15:07
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Nate RFB posted:That'll be a pass for me. I like Key a lot but the AIR anime was pretty bad outside of the Summer special. One would assume that the VN is a tad more coherant.
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Jul 22, 2013 15:09
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The final act is so stupid though, and is seemingly no different in the VN. I am obviously able to tolerate or even enjoy most Key melodrama, but AIR was pretty eyeball-rolling. I'd call it almost soulless and machine-like in how by the numbers and transparently manipulative it was. Like a parody of Key.
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Jul 22, 2013 15:19
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The Higurashi tracks that were posted here just brought me right back into the game. I think it's one of those things that I've grown to like more after getting through it. This one is another great track to add. The main Higurashi theme is pretty powerful, and I like the different ways it's remixed throughout the game. What's the best "tear-jerker" visual novel? Is it Clannad?
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Jul 22, 2013 15:55
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futurememory posted:What's the best "tear-jerker" visual novel? Is it Clannad? Pretty sure about that but I never played it. It is loving long though, I would say it's roughly close to the length of Higurashi minus an arc or two going by how long it takes most people to finish it. Also you will need a walkthrough for it. If you want something short and sweet for a tearjerker try Planetarian, which was made by the same company who did Clannad.
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Jul 22, 2013 16:06
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Clannad's anime is arguably better then the novel, so you can get away with just watching it.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:31
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The I/O translation (by the Infinity series writer, the other one, that is) will be done soonish, which I am looking forward to; I've heard that it's quite good. After that he'll probably move onto Root Double which should be even better.
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Jul 22, 2013 19:33
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DerLeo posted:In detail: I always thought that the treatment of characters like Saber and Rin was remarkably feminist in that they were shown to be just as competent (moreso, actually) than the protagonist and had vastly different personalities and strengths. Saber for example is widely considered to be the "best" servant according to Rin, and Rin comes from a line of prestigious magi as well as being one of the strongest players in the Holy Grail War. Saber's outfit could've easily been something like the metal bikinis that struggle to pass as 'armor' in various video games, but instead it's full armor that still has feminine touches and suits her character well. There's also no taking advantage of Rin's short skirt. There was some point where Shirou and Rin sat in the grass in UBW, Rin with her knees up, and I thought, "Wow, I'm pretty sure any other visual novel would've had a panty shot right here despite it being completely inappropriate for the scene". It's surprisingly kind in its treatment of women in a lot of aspects (though I have some issues with a few things like Sakura and the crest worms, also Rider saying she's going to orgasm over killing somebody - it isn't perfect, of course, but it's a hell of a lot better than you'd expect from a porn game from Japan). So it's interesting (and cool) to see him say 'no, these aren't strong female characters yet, they need to be more than that'. I agree that 'the women being strong but ultimately they would fail if not for the men teaching them something' has issues. I disagree with him talking about K-ON!, though - there's plenty of stories with all-male casts where women largely take a backseat, why is one of the few instances where it's reversed a problem?  The absence of men doesn't mean the female characters can't prove themselves as strong.Nate RFB posted:Funny how all of us, myself included, forget ataraxia exists. Speaking of MLA, I just got to (near-end? spoilers) Ayamine and Chizuru...  Everyone's going to die except for goddamn Meiya, aren't they.Kind of wish they could all stop talking about how they all want to bang Takeru. Irukandji Syndrome fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 20:06
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Well, like Nasu says simply having a female character be physically strong does not make them a strong female character. What is alarming about that Nasu conversation is that he is aware of this and hopes to do better.Irukandji Syndrome posted:Maybe I'll give Higurashi/Umineko a shot after completing MLA. Where do you start with that? I also heard something about an art patch because the original portraits are terrible or something? http://higurashifix.wikia.com/wiki/Tweaking_Higurashi_Wiki (Alternate: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/72fq7rceexzbk/Higurashi_Hacks_%26_Patches) http://uminekofix.wikia.com/wiki/Tweaking_Umineko_Wiki You could play either one whenever you want (as they are independent stories), but you may get more out of Umineko if you have Higurashi under your belt. Or vice versa, I suppose.
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Jul 22, 2013 20:35
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Is Higurashi worth playing after watching the anime? From what I've heard Deen actually did a good job getting the story across.
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Jul 22, 2013 20:46
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:So it's interesting (and cool) to see him say 'no, these aren't strong female characters yet, they need to be more than that'. I agree that 'the women being strong but ultimately they would fail if not for the men teaching them something' has issues. I disagree with him talking about K-ON!, though - there's plenty of stories with all-male casts where women largely take a backseat, why is one of the few instances where it's reversed a problem? No, his point is that making a cast of only females isn't inherently progressive or feminist or good; if anything, the idea that you need to remove men to make a good cast of female characters is condescending, as if the presence of male characters will somehow make the women look worse by comparison. Look at that part again: quote:"No, instead of female superiority, that's just absence of men. It looks like girls are being prioritized, but if men don't appear to begin with, it's like nothing more than building a farm where there can be no antagonism. In that sense, women become more like mascots... it might mean looking down on them. Not by the creators, but by the audience." That's what the comments about "farms" and "mascots" were about. He's not saying that single-gender casts are inherently bad, just that they're not inherently good, and that's an important distinction.
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Jul 22, 2013 20:58
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ViggyNash posted:Is Higurashi worth playing after watching the anime? From what I've heard Deen actually did a good job getting the story across. But that said, as someone who watched the anime first the VN was still immensely enjoyable. I just treated it as a rewatch. The story also has a decent amount of replayability, as many scenes at the start will take on a completely different meaning when you know the truth.
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Jul 22, 2013 20:58
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Story wise the anime seemed decent on its own, but if its that drastic a difference then playing it does seem worth it.
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Jul 22, 2013 21:16
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My sides are so thankful for Ayamine delivering the line about daddy-Tama still being a Tama once more.
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Jul 22, 2013 21:33
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I thought the Higurashi anime was decent. I don't know how anyone could complain about the art when the art in the game was pretty bad, prepatch that is. The pacing on the first few chapters were better than the VN and I thought the anime original arc was pretty good. Honestly the only part where I thought the faster pacing hurt the anime was the third chapter. That chapter really need all those character moments to help the audience understand why Keichi would do what he did in that chapter.
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Jul 22, 2013 22:08
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The original sprites are not good, but at least you could say they were consistent and/or had a style or charm of their own. The anime on the other hand... Don't know how you can bring up the third chapter, when Meakashi easily has it the worst. The TIPs in the VN (the diary entries) completely transform that narrative. Tsumihoroboshi also obviously has a lot more impact (due to some obvious presentation choices) in the VN, to say nothing about how it structurally makes a lot more sense. Remember, the second season had to add a whole new episode just to work back in content the first season had cut out of that arc. And this isn't even getting into the differences in the music for the Kai chapters. The only thing I still like to this day in the anime are its two OPs, I suppose.
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Jul 22, 2013 22:44
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Of course they had to cut a lot, the entire series is long as hell and no way fits in 2 seasons. The anime had must better pacing for the most part which is my main complaint about the VN. I didn't think they butchered any chapter other than 3 I guess and most my other complains are just nitpicks. The music is a letdown as the VN is much better in that area and the animation was bad but I thought they did a decent job with the story. The VN is still the better version but I didn't think the anime did that bad a job with it. And I'm someone who watched the anime after reading the VN.
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Jul 22, 2013 23:02
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Myriad Truths posted:The I/O translation (by the Infinity series writer, the other one, that is) will be done soonish, which I am looking forward to; I've heard that it's quite good. After that he'll probably move onto Root Double which should be even better. This seems interesting. The translation is 83% done, but the editing hasn't really begun yet, so this will still take some time. Still, better keep an eye on this.
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Jul 22, 2013 23:20
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Hahahaha, man, Hisao's kind of an idiot. I ended up on Emi's route because it made sense for Hisao to do everything he could to help the, y'know, heart attack issue, and it's actually been a lot better than I expected so far. It's kinda rare for games like this to treat sex as just a matter of course in a relationship rather than the absolute peak. It's even rarer for them to acknowledge sex as a way to escape dealing with the actual problem any relationship might face. Emi is surprisingly complex too, even if she was initially framed as your typical "wee energetic and cutesy immature girl woohooo" character. Of course Hisao is still a dense motherfucker since he's the protagonist in an anime game, so he isn't quite cottoning on to the fact that Emi's dad is totally dead, even though I guessed it around the time he talked to her mom during the track meet. The doctor even dropped him a huge hint just now when he was like "Woah, guess you get to meet the parent!", but I guess Hisao just didn't quite get it. 
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Jul 23, 2013 00:33
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I don't think he's written to be as much of a dumbass in any of the other routes. Not that I recall anyway.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:36
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Stall_19 posted:I thought the Higurashi anime was decent. I don't know how anyone could complain about the art when the art in the game was pretty bad, prepatch that is. The pacing on the first few chapters were better than the VN and I thought the anime original arc was pretty good. Honestly the only part where I thought the faster pacing hurt the anime was the third chapter. That chapter really need all those character moments to help the audience understand why Keichi would do what he did in that chapter. I didn't know the original art was that bad. I guess I can't just say it was Deen being worthless at their job, as they usually are. One thing that was definitely bad about the anime as an adaptation was that they did not separate the chapters very well. It confused the hell out of me the first few times everything suddenly reset. Of course I now understand that those were time loops with small circumstantial changes, but I had to go look up the VN structure on the wiki for all that to make sense. The first season ending wrapped that all up pretty well though.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:37
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 Why is Yashiro suddenly living in Takeru's room?
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Jul 23, 2013 00:47
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Because Yuuko. I think that's the answer to like 90% of the seemingly weird poo poo that happens in Muv Luv. She has her reasons though.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:05
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Ibram Gaunt posted:This got me thinking though, what non stalled out VN translations (that are actually worth reading) are even coming out at this point? Grisaia no Kajitsu is finishing up final editing and should be out within the next week. It's Fate level, both in length and quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpqJoJ_AG-g futurememory posted:What's the best "tear-jerker" visual novel? Is it Clannad? It's rated #4 on EGS (the Japanese equivalent of VNDB.) The top-rated tearjerker is Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:20
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I'm seriously losing it with this comedy around Yashiro moving in. Ayamine you are the best~~
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Jul 23, 2013 01:21
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Yashiro turns out to be a pretty decent character, I think.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:39
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MagicalDuck posted:It's rated #4 on EGS (the Japanese equivalent of VNDB.) The top-rated tearjerker is Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo. I feel like a wimp for saying it but Sharin no Kuni was too heavy for me, I finished it years ago but I don't think I can play it a second time  Poor Natsumi.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:52
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Einander posted:No, his point is that making a cast of only females isn't inherently progressive or feminist or good; if anything, the idea that you need to remove men to make a good cast of female characters is condescending, as if the presence of male characters will somehow make the women look worse by comparison. Look at that part again: You're right, I was misreading it a little. I can see what he's saying, and it's an interesting point. Honestly though, I feel like it has mostly to do with the audience it's geared at. When you have an all-female series that's aimed towards otaku, yeah of course it's typically going to be more about focusing on women being ~moe~ and poo poo for fanservice - or if it's mostly-female, it's probably going to be a bunch of women piling on a dude. Whereas all or mostly-female series written for girls (say, Sailor Moon) can have plenty of antagonism and interest and dynamic female characters. Women can be villains, after all. Also compare largely-men series for women (Ouran Host Club, Fruits Basket and the like) and largely or all-men shows aimed towards men. Very very different. There are plenty of exceptions to this rule, but yeah. I guess that's circling around to pretty much the same point, that it all depends on how it's written. But I've also enjoyed what I've watched of K-On! and it didn't feel that way to me. I like slice-of-life stuff a lot, though. I finished Muv-Luv finally. That ending with everyone sacrificing themselves, oh man Does the letter Yuuko gives you vary depending on the choices you made earlier in the game?Yashiro getting a place in the rebuilt world is really sweet. It's kind of weird that they put Meiya's sister in? Maybe they thought she was too great a character to get killed in a car crash? It kind of doesn't make sense with their whole repeatedly emphasized backstory of 'cursed twins', though. Shouldn't Meiya be with a branch family somewhere? Maybe it was a result of Meiya's dear wish to be with her sister. And of course she wants Takeru's dick. Of Course. Is there a transcription of the untranslated dialogue at the end somewhere? I assume it was just assorted chatter, but still. I have joined the ranks of everyone who finished Muv-Luv and waits excitedly for poor newcomers to experience all the most horrifying plot points. Can't wait until ilifinicus gets to CHOMP 
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Jul 23, 2013 02:22
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Now you can wait for Altered Fable and enjoy some good, happy times again. 
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Jul 23, 2013 02:24
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