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Trast posted:Hmm, well I know they had indentured servants plus the servitors in the 40k universe but space marines having "boy slaves" threw me for a loop. If they weren't all asexual killing machines it would just open all those awkward doors. And catholic priest jokes, lots of them. The Iron Snakes are also modeled on ancient Greek hoplites, which makes the boy-slave thing even better.
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Jul 23, 2013 19:40
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Everybody's got slaves in 40k. Even the smallest spacecraft have literally thousands of slaves on them. And then there are servitors...
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Jul 23, 2013 19:54
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Baron Bifford posted:If you become a rogue trader you get the same level of freedom and independence that a 20th-century human takes for granted, but in the Imperium this makes it one of the most awesome roles imaginable. Rogue Trader is a hereditary position that comes with a ton of power and tens of thousands of slaves and soldiers at their command. Being a Rogue Trader is akin to being an Inquisitor or Lord General, not "average 20th century dude".
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Jul 23, 2013 20:01
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hopterque posted:Uhnnnnnnnnnnnnnf. He said that his Black Legion series will be his "Gaunt's Ghosts" and his initial planning was 15 books. Obviously, sales figures, and the tendency for "the tale grew in the telling" could shift that either way. But still, as an opening estimate, 15 books, spread across 10,000 years, filling in back story and explaining how the Traitor Legions in general and Black Legion in particular became the groups they are in 40k. He has said he is modeling it after greek epics and arthurian legends in structure. So yeah. Gonna own. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 20:09
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Rogue Trader is a hereditary position that comes with a ton of power and tens of thousands of slaves and soldiers at their command. Being a Rogue Trader is akin to being an Inquisitor or Lord General, not "average 20th century dude".
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Jul 23, 2013 20:11
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Fried Chicken posted:He said that his Black Legion series will be his "Gaunt's Ghosts" and his initial planning was 15 books. Obviously, sales figures, and the tendency for "the tale grew in the telling" could shift that either way. I'm really looking forward to this. Black Legion as they are right now are basically the Chaos Ultramarines so hopefully he can give them some more distinct character.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:14
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The second Shira Calpurnia book has a really cool plot involving a Rogue Trader if you nerds are interested in finding out more. Although I imagine licensing can vary between sectors and segmentums etc.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:19
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ed balls balls man posted:The second Shira Calpurnia book has a really cool plot involving a Rogue Trader if you nerds are interested in finding out more. Although I imagine licensing can vary between sectors and segmentums etc.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:22
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Trast posted:Hmm, well I know they had indentured servants plus the servitors in the 40k universe but space marines having "boy slaves" threw me for a loop. If they weren't all asexual killing machines it would just open all those awkward doors. And catholic priest jokes, lots of them. People regularly get press ganged into starships when it's crew run low. Generations of slaves live and die on Imperial starships so kids being around isn't strange. It's likely Space Marine ships are more organized though and children actually receive nominal education and are given responsibilities early on instead of the crew being left on their own half the time.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:39
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Welp, you learn something new about the grim-dark future every day.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:48
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Fried Chicken posted:He said that his Black Legion series will be his "Gaunt's Ghosts" and his initial planning was 15 books. Obviously, sales figures, and the tendency for "the tale grew in the telling" could shift that either way. Oh hell yes. His Night Lords series is one of my favorite Black Library things. If he can pull of anything like that I'll be all over this series.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:57
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Demiurge4 posted:People regularly get press ganged into starships when it's crew run low. Generations of slaves live and die on Imperial starships so kids being around isn't strange. It's likely Space Marine ships are more organized though and children actually receive nominal education and are given responsibilities early on instead of the crew being left on their own half the time. In many worlds being selected to be a chapter serf is a highly prized and competitive position and it's implied that it's not only a huge honor but also a relatively decent life. In some of the Space Wolf books they talk about how a Space Wolf serf is still a total badass by normal human standards. In others, they're said to be made up of failed aspirants who were not biocompatible with gene-seed but are still allowed to serve the chapter. Of course whether they're actually slaves might differ - a serf is subtly different from a slave depending on the workings of the law that governs him, and effectively in their everyday life even a 'free' soldier seconded indefinitely to a particular duty is a slave since he has no basic freedoms and if he runs away he will be tried and imprisoned or executed. So in the end, the terms are meaningless outside of a specific legal context and are used to make things more medieval sounding and grimdark. And of course freedom is relative when you live on a giant ship or an isolated fortress-monastery in the middle of nowhere. Even if you were legally free to leave your enormous city-sized ship, the opportunity would probably only come every few decades when it's near a friendly planet or ship, and would you really leave all your family and friends behind forever just for the uncertainty of more interstellar travel to some place you know nothing about? Mechafunkzilla posted:BotS is a pretty mellow book. It was the first time Abnett was writing space marines so I think he wanted to play it safe. I thought the first story was pretty cute, though, and probably the strongest of the lot. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 21:02
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Fried Chicken posted:He said that his Black Legion series will be his "Gaunt's Ghosts" Unlike Guant's ghosts however I think ADB will have a consistent level of writing quality.
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Jul 23, 2013 21:12
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CreepyGuy9000 posted:Unlike Guant's ghosts however I think ADB will have a consistent level of writing quality. All the Gaunts Ghosts books are good in my opinion from a writing stand point. The problem is that we go from Vervun Hive which is loving epic, to a number of lovely and largely irrelevant engagements. Herodor is pretty good and definitely his attempt to recreate Vervun Hive but it doesn't have the same impact.
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Jul 23, 2013 21:18
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Safety Factor posted:Oh hell yes. His Night Lords series is one of my favorite Black Library things. If he can pull of anything like that I'll be all over this series. Ok, I looked it up. He pitched it as a trilogy. BL upped it to a lengthy series, with a projection of many many more books. And the first 3 will be a trilogy. I expect that will be akin to GG or Cain, with how every 3 are a trilogy, but the whole thing is linked. http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/the-talon-of-horus/ quote:After Blood & Fire, I’m starting The Talon of Horus, and I couldn’t be more psyched about it. Not much to say at this stage, except that the main character will be at the right hand of Abaddon through the fall of the Sons of Horus and the rise of the Black Legion, over the course of 10,000 years. Yeah, unless I get killed or banned from touching the IP, this series threatens to be a long one. If you’ve read Bernard Cornwell’s Warlord Chronicles (about “King” Arthur) or Steven Pressfield’s novels of Ancient Greece (Gates of Fire; Tides of War; The Afghan Campaign, etc.) then you’ll know the atmosphere. My number of 15 was not quite accurate. 15 is the number of years he he expects to work on it. quote:Firstly, The Warmaster Chronicles isn’t what I call it. I call it “The Black Legion Series”, or “Rise of the Warmaster”, or “That series I’m likely to spend the next 15 years of my life writing”. The Warmaster Chronicles sounds like a badass newspaper, or a very angry blog. If it’s a play on Bernard Cornwell’s The Warlord Chronicles, then that’s very clever and I love you, as that’s exactly the feel I’m going for (and have said a bunch of times that I love that breed of historical fiction, a la Bernard Cornwell; Steven Pressfield, et al). I may steal this reference and pretend I said it first, so thanks for that. That said, he tends to put out about 1 book a year, + short stories so that would be 15 books. The counterpoint though, is he is still a young guy and as authors get older they tend to slow down the pace (though the craftsmanship of each book is usually up). Also, he will be working on other projects as well, like his HH novels, something called "The First King of Rome", and whatever else tickles his fancy. Make of that what you will. Personally, I look at the fact that he has a kid and see "he'll need to write a lot to put him through college  "Also, according to twitter, he and Gav Thorpe are swapping Chaos lore mega-emails where responses are ~7,000 words long. I want to read that email. Also, suggestion on his blog that Master of Mankind will involve Blood Angels somehow. At least they factor into his prequel story for it titled Blood in the Water. If anyone has the Game's Day Anthology 2012/13, the short story Extinction is a prequel short story for the Talon of Horus. Looking back, that seems to be his thing, he did it also with First Heretic, Betrayer, and Night Lords. If anyone has the anthology, I would be very interested in talking to you in IRC. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 21:20
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If ADB can write one book about the Black Legion that's as good as Necropolis, I'll buy every drat book in the series. I, too, would like to know about the Anthology if anyone's got it. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 21:23
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Cream_Filling posted:In my opinion, the Life Eater Virus is really a super nanotech wmd from the dark age of technology. That makes sense, i just don't see how hiding deep in an underground cavern saves them. Nor how the dreadnaught is all completely fine. I am just guessing Loken has Plot Armour. Mechafunkzilla posted:I honestly didn't think Galaxy in Flames was that bad...the really stupid character changing stuff happens in False Gods, and Galaxy in Flames just kind of continues where that book left off. McNeill I haven't gotten around to reading Angel Exterminatus, and unfortunately Mechanicum ended right when i felt it was getting interesting. I read a thousand sons after Propsero Burns, which was awesome book, and did a very good job with its setting (Fenris seemed very Alien/Bleak). Even Abnett's minor depictions of the Thousand Sons was much better than a Thousand Suns. Abnett ruined it for me  Is there actually a book or a side story that explains Horus's transformation? The way he acts in Galaxy in Flames, seems really suspect.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:07
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UberJumper posted:That makes sense, i just don't see how hiding deep in an underground cavern saves them. Nor how the dreadnaught is all completely fine. I am just guessing Loken has Plot Armour. Yeah it's a bit of an oddity, since if all it takes to survive it is to hide in a cave or sealed vault the virus would probably be pretty bad at killing, say, tyranids or something, since hiding in caves is basically every other tyranid book.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:36
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UberJumper posted:
Other than False Gods? No. He gets scratched, then cries a lot, then falls into a coma, then believes obvious hallucinations and lies. When he wakes up he's evil and starts murdering people. There are some throw away lines about conversations he's been having with Erebus about how under appreciated he is, but we don't get to see them. That's all we get.
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Jul 24, 2013 03:22
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Potooweet posted:Other than False Gods? No. He gets scratched, then cries a lot, then falls into a coma, then believes obvious hallucinations and lies. When he wakes up he's evil and starts murdering people. There are some throw away lines about conversations he's been having with Erebus about how under appreciated he is, but we don't get to see them. That's all we get.  I really hope someone writes a book that explains his transformation a little bit better. There is a huge window between Istavan and Davin.
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Jul 24, 2013 07:24
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UberJumper posted:
It'll need an author who has a talent for two things: One is good work with metaphysical arguments and philosophy, since that is the poison Horus needs to swallow. The other is horror (at the grim darkness of the... well, you know) which is why Horus will swallow the poison. I don't know if any of the current BL guys can do the story justice.
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Jul 24, 2013 07:33
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Fried Chicken posted:If anyone has the anthology, I would be very interested in talking to you in IRC. I read Extinction about a week ago or so, it is only about 6 pages long. I was also extremely confused by everything. My coworker has the book. My best attempt at summarizing Extinction. The book is a series of really short perspectives from a variety of characters all from the Sons of Horus (all of them new except abaddon). All of the snippets of the characters seem to be a different battle/place and it is rather short. I cannot remember everything, and their names for the life of me, but here goes: - Sole survivor of Tactical squad, is basically about to get shot in the head by some night lords on bikes. - Techmarine on a dying cruiser, being destroyed by the Death Guard/Emperors Children (not sure which)? Seemed like the entire Sons of Horus fleet was being destroyed ends with a call for ship to evac. - A captain of Sons of Horus, with an eye hanging out of his socket, being tortured/ripped apart by someone. - Sharak a sons of Horus Captain (i think?), has an obsession with being possed by demons, the last one who possessed his body was cast out earlier. He is being chased by Word Bearers, and he is just looking for his next high in the form of a daemon possessing him. (i liked this one) - A bunch of Sons of Horus defending their position, while Thousand Sons sorcerer is attacking. Ends with the sorcerer fighting an Assault Marine. Sorcerer ends with "This is how a legion dies". - Machine Spirit of the Vengeful Spirit, she is basically laying crippled/dormant in the middle of space. She was evacuated. (might tie into tech marine story). Abaddon ordered the ship to be evacuated. - "Ezekyle the Brotherless" (Aka Abaddon), wandering alone on ether Prospero or some warp world. World is filled with giant Pyramids (which sounds like Prospero), and several suns. He is pissed off, angry and wants revenge. - Book ends with it saying Abaddon is no longer first captain of Sons of Horus, his legion is apparently Extinct. TLDR; Sons of Horus being killed off by some of the other traitor legions. Sons of Horus has suffered Extinction. If you have some unburning desire to find the names, of the characthers i could look tommorow. The rest of the anthology had the Eisenhorn/Ravenor short Perihelion (which i already read). And some other stuff. UberJumper fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 08:12
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UberJumper posted:That makes sense, i just don't see how hiding deep in an underground cavern saves them. Nor how the dreadnaught is all completely fine. I am just guessing Loken has Plot Armour. I haven't read it for a long time, but didn't the virus eat away at the seals and joints of the armour? And I recall the dreadnaught dying too because he refused to get into the caves. I seem to remember some dying marine saying thathe'd ordered the dreadnaught ito the caves but he'd stayed, and then he realised that his chasis had taken damage and the virus was getting in. Wasn't it some kind of sealed vault, too? And they only had to stay safe long enough for the second phase of the attack which was the orbital laser igniting all the virus decomposition gasses and burning the planet clean. Oh sod it, I'm not going to try and defend those books. They should have let Abnett write them all. I'd re-read it, but I know it would get worse on a second read through. I do remember it being jolting to read Horus suddenly talking with a completely different 'voice' though. Mentioning that Kurze was a moody bastard but useful if you needed a battalion making GBS threads in their britches before a battle, etc.
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Jul 24, 2013 10:01
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Don't worry too much about a few survivors from the virus bombardment. They were First Legion troops, you just can't wipe them all out at once with anything. If you blow up the planet they're on, worry about survivors boarding your death star on flying debris.
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Jul 24, 2013 10:16
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Dog_Meat posted:I haven't read it for a long time, but didn't the virus eat away at the seals and joints of the armour? And I recall the dreadnaught dying too because he refused to get into the caves. I seem to remember some dying marine saying thathe'd ordered the dreadnaught ito the caves but he'd stayed, and then he realised that his chasis had taken damage and the virus was getting in. The Dreadnaught claimed it was sealed so the Marines would seal the bunker so they would be safe because the bombs were immenant. They slammed the door shut and the seals hit right before the bombs went off. THe bunker was intact and was protected from the virus and remained standing after the fire bombing. The dreadnaught basically choose his death and convinced the marines he'd be ok simply so they wouldn't die trying to get him in the bunker in time.
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Jul 24, 2013 10:21
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VanSandman posted:It'll need an author who has a talent for two things: One is good work with metaphysical arguments and philosophy, since that is the poison Horus needs to swallow. The other is horror (at the grim darkness of the... well, you know) which is why Horus will swallow the poison. I don't think I've ever seen it done well. Like, my recommendation would be, "Well, just go crib Paradise Lost." But even Paradise Lost begins with the War in Heaven and Satan's transformation already over, and Book I is like a big joke about how satisfyingly portraying Satan's fall and this epic war that exists beyond our conception of metaphysics and space time is basically impossible. "Yeah, you want epic? Well, the angels are like giant Godzilla monsters the size of cities! Cool right? Or they're the size of bees. Whatever. 'Space' doesn't exist in this place, so make it up, you grognards" (Modern Translation by DirtyRobot). EDIT: Actually, maybe East of Eden by Steinbeck does it pretty well, but it's different. If you wanted to map East of Eden onto the Horus Heresy, you could have had Sanguinius as the "Cal" brother who thinks he's got this darkness inside him, and golden "good" boy Horus who finally ends up being the real Cain-figure as soon as push comes to shove. DirtyRobot fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 13:57
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EyeRChris posted:The Dreadnaught claimed it was sealed so the Marines would seal the bunker so they would be safe because the bombs were immenant. They slammed the door shut and the seals hit right before the bombs went off. THe bunker was intact and was protected from the virus and remained standing after the fire bombing. The dreadnaught basically choose his death and convinced the marines he'd be ok simply so they wouldn't die trying to get him in the bunker in time. Wait the dreadnaught died? I could have swore he lived. My mistake.
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Jul 24, 2013 16:02
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DirtyRobot posted:I don't think I've ever seen it done well. I think what you'd have to emphasize is initially the good aspects of the four gods. Slaanesh is all about experience, Khorne at least used to be partially about martial honor, change is necessary for any sort of progress, and... Ok I have nothing for Nurgle. Maybe resilience? From there you make almost but not quite sound arguments while emphasizing that Horus is in an extremely weakened state mentally and physically, that lead from 'your dad is a dick, we need your help' to 'hey rebellion is sometimes justified' to 'how can human morality even apply to you, a primarch, anyway?' to 'let's kill everything that disagrees with us so we can start over from a clean slate. Starting with your father.' Also it would have been a good idea to have one audience surrogate like Loken begin by objecting to what Horus plans but eventually be swayed by the arguments. Maybe a former Librarian? I think you'd have to have Horus begin by arguing for his rebellion, then as it moves further and further along he stops arguing for it and becomes an autocrat that brooks no dissent in his presence. It would certainly have made things a lot more tragic and less 'lol Horus is ours now' from chaos. The First Heretic was a good portrayal of corruption because it showed Lorgar as a man desperate for something greater than himself to believe in, but still proud enough to need to be close to said greater thing, and Chaos persuades him on those lines. I think you'd have to show Horus as a man who, now that command has been given to him, is beginning to question the necessity of things like absolute intolerance for Xenos, the persecution of the Librarians and Magnus, the Emperor's distance from mankind as a whole (maybe wondering just what his father, and by extension himself, actually is) so you have the seeds of his fall planted earlier. Maybe some doubt about whether he measures up to his brothers, especially Sanguinius and Roboute. Unfortunately False Gods does only a few of these things, and clumsily and briefly, and makes Horus' change so abrupt as to be ludicrous. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 18:08
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Well the supposed sell is telling Horus that the Emperor only wants to ascend to godhood to avoid his foretold death and that the imperial mission and even the relationship between father and son is all a lie to achieve that end. But that Horus can achieve what his father failed to do and actually lead mankind into a golden age. It ties into Horus's mythic positioning as the son and heir to be - raised to fulfill his father's dreams but uncorrupted by age and worldly concerns as his father is or, alternately, ambitious and hungry for the throne and convinced he will be superior to his father. For instance, in Aleister Crowley's bullshit but influential quasi-religious system, the "Aeon of Horus" represents the modern age, as distinguished from previous eras of patriarchal religion (Aoen of Osiris) and prehistorical matriarchal religion (Aeon of Isis), and is all about the symbolic aspect of the child, individuality, freedom, "true will," and other familiar pop occultist / New Age crap. Fantasy nerds like the original GW crew and Abnett would probably know all about this stuff. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 18:37
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Just finished Blood and Fire - it's a good read (ADB, duh) and probably a perfect length for what it is. It's nice to see what exactly the Celestial Lions did to deserve their "censure" on Armageddon. Question the Inquisition's motives. It's always been speculated since the original GW campaign, but it was nice to see the full story. It was also nice to read about Grimaldus and even Andrej - they're some really good characters from one of my favorite BL books (Armadgeddon). Also, there is a Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch in the story. No lie.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:08
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Yeah, that's been available to use in the Black Templars list for a while.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:33
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Arquinsiel posted:Yeah, that's been available to use in the Black Templars list for a while.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:37
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VanSandman posted:I think what you'd have to emphasize is initially the good aspects of the four gods. Slaanesh is all about experience, Khorne at least used to be partially about martial honor, change is necessary for any sort of progress, and... Ok I have nothing for Nurgle. Maybe resilience? From there you make almost but not quite sound arguments while emphasizing that Horus is in an extremely weakened state mentally and physically, that lead from 'your dad is a dick, we need your help' to 'hey rebellion is sometimes justified' to 'how can human morality even apply to you, a primarch, anyway?' to 'let's kill everything that disagrees with us so we can start over from a clean slate. Starting with your father.' Nurgle's positive aspect is paternal love, he is 'Grandpa Nurgle' after all. All his worshipers love him and they never die from his diseases. It wouldn't be too hard to justify a whole lot of killing in the name of progress to Horus, after all he was leading the Great Crusade. He's already crushed countless peaceful worlds in the name of the Imperium, all he really has to do is fight the Crusade in reverse.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:50
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Can-O-Raid posted:Nurgle's positive aspect is paternal love, he is 'Grandpa Nurgle' after all. All his worshipers love him and they never die from his diseases. More specifically, Nurgle's positive aspects are endurance, determination, acceptance, contentment, and to a certain extent rebirth (just not in a form that's altogether desirable or sane).
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Jul 24, 2013 20:08
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Also hope, as in "maybe I'll get better" or "maybe soon the pain will stop".berzerkmonkey posted:I had no clue - I'm so far out of tabletop 40K anymore...
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Jul 24, 2013 21:35
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Arquinsiel posted:Also hope, as in "maybe I'll get better" or "maybe soon the pain will stop". Nah, I'd say Tzeench is the one that's all about hope. Nurgle is hopelessness and acceptance. You've given up on life ever being any better and have made peace with the now. A person can get used to anything. You know you're going to die eventually, so why worry about it? Stop fighting and learn to love Papa Nurgle.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:02
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Well I'm just paraphrasing an old WHFRP blurb about Nurgle. He really is about hope.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:09
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Arquinsiel posted:Well I'm just paraphrasing an old WHFRP blurb about Nurgle. He really is about hope. Really? I always thought Tzeentch was supposed to be aligned with the concept of hope, that you can change yourself and what's around you.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:13
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Cream_Filling posted:Nah, I'd say Tzeench is the one that's all about hope. Nurgle is hopelessness and acceptance. You've given up on life ever being any better and have made peace with the now. A person can get used to anything. You know you're going to die eventually, so why worry about it? Stop fighting and learn to love Papa Nurgle. The chaos powers took to patroning the chapters that had traits that reflected them. So Khorne was attracted to the honorable but berserk World Eaters (although would have preferred the Blood Angels), Tzeench went for the curious dabbling hubris ridden Thousand Sons, Slaanesh for the oh-so-pretty-and-vain Emperor's Children. The fact that Nurgle chose to be the patron of the Death Guard shows that dogged, unstoppable determination and grim acceptance of hardship are aspects of Nurgle. I suppose the Iron Warriors could have also been an option, but the Death Guard literally had a culture of poison and resistance.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:13
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So I guess endurance through hardship is one of Nurgle's things. Maybe a bit of 'that what does not kill me...' In there as well.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:27
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